I was having a conversation with my GM the other week and this came up. Is Celestial armor a material type with a pre-estabilished magical effects on it, or a group of magical effects that would allow mithral to be used in its construction?
There is a heavy armor made in the same way; Celestial Plate Armor. So this sort of confuses things.
So basically, can you make celestrial armor with mithral for even more insanely agile and lighter armor?
From the Devs:
The short answer: No
Long answer: it is your game do what you want.
Specific Magic items such as Celestial Armor and Celestial Plate Armor are 'take them as you find them' items. While yes, you can try to deconstruct them and apply the bonuses to other items that is firmly in 'custom' territory.
Summary: By RAW, Celestial Armor is as is, there is no adding Mithral to it.
- Gauss
From the Devs:
The short answer: No
Long answer: it is your game do what you want.Specific Magic items such as Celestial Armor and Celestial Plate Armor are 'take them as you find them' items. While yes, you can try to deconstruct them and apply the bonuses to other items it is firmly in 'custom' territory.
Summary: By RAW, Celestial Armor is as is, there is no adding Mithral to it.
- Gauss
?? But you CAN make armor of different materials. Are you saying you can't do that with this armor by RAW? Where is this rule please?
Yes you can make regular armor out of different materials. Yes, you can then enchant that armor. No you cannot make a specific magic armor out of different materials unless that is included in the description.
Regarding Celestial Armor:
James Jacobs
Lael Treventhius wrote:
So then you can actually enchant a set of celstial armor?Nope; it's already a magic item. You could make a similar suit of magic armor with different properties, but celestial armor is what it is; a specific TYPE of magic armor. Just as a sunblade is a specific type of magic weapon, and a cloak of the manta ray's a specific type of magic cloak.
Simply put: Specific armor and weapons are 'as is' items. Anything that is added to them is houserule.
- Gauss
Yes you can make regular armor out of different materials. Yes, you can then enchant that armor. No you cannot make a specific magic armor out of different materials unless that is included in the description.
Regarding Celestial Armor:
James JacobsLael Treventhius wrote:
So then you can actually enchant a set of celstial armor?Nope; it's already a magic item. You could make a similar suit of magic armor with different properties, but celestial armor is what it is; a specific TYPE of magic armor. Just as a sunblade is a specific type of magic weapon, and a cloak of the manta ray's a specific type of magic cloak.
Simply put: Specific armor and weapons are 'as is' items. Anything that is added to them is houserule.
- Gauss
I tend to take James Jacob's rulings with a grain of salt. I still don't agree with this ruling with weapon finesse and combat maneuvers. But thanks.
What parts of that armor is due to the armor, and what parts of it are do the enhancements? What happens to a celestial armor that is suppressed with dispel magic? How much HP/Hardness does it have? These are questions that must be answered if we want to say that Celestial Armor is only Celestial Armor and is separate from the materials that it is crafted from. For those of us who enjoy consistency, there are big problems that this opens up.
Which ruling about Weapon Finesse and Combat maneuvers was that?
- Gauss
How about adding abbilities as you level up? Lets say I want to upgrade my celestial plate as I level to be able to fly two more times a day...
Tandriniel: Adding Custom abilities to Celestial plate would be GM fiat territory. Personally, as a GM I will allow an increase in +'s since that cost is pretty safely calculated. Extra uses of Fly per day I would have to think about it.
- Gauss
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The "Celestial" armors were given a material writeup in Green Ronin's Advanced Gamemaster's Guide as being made of Gold or Silver "Celestrum". (That link will take you to where you can buy a hardback copy of it from the Paizo store for just $5!)
Given that that book was written by Owen KC Stephens, the new materials may see an update sooner or later in a Super Genius Games PDF release. He hasn't said anything about specifics, but I for one would not mind seeing it updated.
(Hint, hint, Owen!)
Celestial Full Plate from PF: Skeletons of Scarwall
I haven't seen the celestial on a heavy steel shield, where is that from?
JJ surmised that if broken down, celestial enchantment would cost about 13,300 gold for medium armor... more for heavy, less for light... it is a magical enchantment, not a physical property, however, it is specifically described as an armor of silver and gold. Can it be made from other substances? Not per the specific armor, but if your DM is allowing the switch from specific to general, then it is up to him/her.
I'd say what color the armor is has little to do with its material or statistics. It's entirely possible to make iron armor look like glistening gold with a cantrip. What matters is what the material actually is, and since it doesn't specify what the material is, then it would be whatever the normal item is made of. Iron. If it can be made from iron, then it can be made from mithral.
Yar.
Silver and Gold are metals/materials as well as colors. I really can't speak for the devs, but from what I remember reading when they were talking about this elsewhere on the forums, the intent was was the descriptive of Silver or Gold was meant to describe the material it was made of, not simply it's color.
(personally, I'm all for reverse engineering "named" magic items and customizing them as I/players see fit, but as far as RAW and RAI goes, I do believe that they cannot be customized and that Celestial Armor is in fact made from the materials of Silver and Gold)
~P
OMG, I am agreeing with Pirate. WTF!!! Pirate...get on your side of the fence already! :D
- Gauss
That seems wrong to me, Pirate. Silver can't be used to make armor, and if it were made of gold its AC would be 2 lower, armor check would be 2 higher, and it would weigh 30 pounds, not 20.
If it were made of precious metals it would be a pretty terrible item.
...oh no....not again...
Yar.
This bright silver or gold +3 chainmail is so fine...
That is the text, and that can easily mean material as well as or instead of colour, and visa-versa.
Also:
Celestial armor is not mithral—it's actually made of silver or gold (as mentioned in its description), and thus doesn't gain any of the standard modifiers for being mithral at all. It's its own thing. Its lower arcane spell failure and higher max Dex bonus are a result of its magical qualities, not what it's made out of. In addition, this magic allows folks to wear it as if it were light armor—the mithral versions don't do this because mithral isn't fundamentally magical like the enhancements on celestial armour.
Also also, Celestial Armor was made and printed in the CRB, LONG before UC came out with "gold armour" rules. So you can't really use those rules as evidence that Celestial Armor cannot be made from Gold or Silver.
Does this cause an internal inconsistency? Yes.
Welcome to a very small slip.
However, and just so you all know, I DO house rule this in my home games so that "named" items can be reverse engineered and built upon. Some items take more work that others. As for Celestial Armor, I use a non-magical Celestial Mail as the base, which you can see HERE.
Just so you know.
~P
"As is" items were always strange to me. I got into D&D through Baldur's Gate II. There I found Carsomyr a two-handed Holy Avenger. When I got into the P&P (3.X at that time) a Holy Avenger was a "cold iron longsword". That always bothered me. Are longswords holier than other weapons? Why don't all lawful good deities have them as favoured weapons then? Houserule time...
Still, where RAW is concerned I would consider "as is" magic items to be made out of the appropriate standard material for the item (usually steel or wood) unless it's specifically said that they are not.
It's entirely possible to make iron armor look like glistening gold with a cantrip.For an hour until the effect wears off.
I think the point was that it is an incredibly simple magic effect. Those on magic arms & armour are permanent anyways, so it could be simply belong to the overall effect of the specific enchantment.
I'd assumed [1] that silver and gold, being noble and heavenly materials, are uniquely suited to being enchanted in a celestial kind of way. This would mean you couldn't enchant mithral (or dragonhide or stoneplate [2]) armor as Celestial, but that you could upgrade or further modify the enchantments on existing Celestial armor.
[1] And we all know what assuming does.
[2] Although I do like the idea of a supremely-expensive Celestial Diamondplate
As with any rule- if you don't like it, change it.
But I like the rule as it stands because it solves a balance issue.
Sure I have no problem with a Holy Avenger being a great sword.. I also have no problem with Celestial Armor being a chain shirt or chain armor or really any kind of mostly metal armor.
But making it into a different metal- especially Mithril- really tends to end up with armor that is "too good". Sure, you may disagree with that, but compared to the other armors it becomes thhe absolute must go to for too many things. A mithril celestial breastplate for example is the go-to for Anyone without armor prof because its flat out better than any other option for the price and can be enchanted rather cheaply to be even better- toss on the shield for even more fun!
Now of course, whether that is "broken" or "over powered" for your campaign is of course up to you! but their rules aren't based on your campaign or even mine- but rather their own and how the rules Should work.
So change them if you don't like them but do try to understand WHY the rule is the way it is.
-S