Customer Service Dire Care Bear Manager
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I thought that would happen. I'm moving tomorrow so I figured I'd put in my new address for the shipping. How do I make a separate billing and shipping address?Which person must II am also not the Dark God you must appease for that, however, as his herald, I will note you may want to double check that the order has your correct shipping and billing information.give proper virgin sacrificespeak with to make this a reality? ;)
Shoot me an email at customer.service@paizo.com with the one that is your billing address that your bank has on file and the one you want your order shipped to and I will get them set up so your order isn't delayed and gets back in the queue.
Just sent an email. Thanks!
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Which person must II am also not the Dark God you must appease for that, however, as his herald, I will note you may want to double check that the order has your correct shipping and billing information.give proper virgin sacrificespeak with to make this a reality? ;)Fidget of Impatience has warp-digivolved into Magic Dance of Happiness.
This is worse than waiting a week before Christmas.
{wonders if she can last-minute torture her siblings without Santa Treerazer seeing she was naughty}
Only a week to go!
Memory of Function, page 10:
Duration: instantaneous
..."When the spell's duration expires, the object returns to its broken or drained state..."
What's the correct duration?
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...mostly, I'm loving this. Mostly.
Then I come to the "Protection from Technology" spell and my brain starts screaming in rage.
I can more or less accept that it would be able to identify and block electrically powered items and so forth, but how in every fiendish afterlife plane can this spell distinguish PHARMACEUTICAL COMPOUNDS from, I don't know, alchemical compounds, or (unliving) organic matter, or EVERY OTHER FORM OF MATTER IN THE UNIVERSE?!
Creative Director
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Memory of Function, page 10:
Duration: instantaneous
..."When the spell's duration expires, the object returns to its broken or drained state..."
What's the correct duration?
Yeah... I just noticed that error myself a few days ago.
The problem with allowing this spell to remove the timeworn condition from an item is that it essentially allows you to "make money" when you cast it on an object more expensive than 20,000 gp.
At the same time, the fact that it functions as a resurrection for constructs is pretty cool.
The spell really should be two different spells—one that functions as a resurrection for constructs (and thus equals the resurrection spell's 10,000 gp material component and instantaneous duration) and one that temporarily restores a timeworn item to full functionality (with a duration of 1 hour/level and a less expensive material component cost—say, 1,000 gp).
The simplest solution is to say that the spell cannot remove the timeworn condition, and that when it is cast on a timeworn object, it merely recharges the object to full capacity (something you normally cannot do).
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...mostly, I'm loving this. Mostly.
Then I come to the "Protection from Technology" spell and my brain starts screaming in rage.
I can more or less accept that it would be able to identify and block electrically powered items and so forth, but how in every fiendish afterlife plane can this spell distinguish PHARMACEUTICAL COMPOUNDS from, I don't know, alchemical compounds, or (unliving) organic matter, or EVERY OTHER FORM OF MATTER IN THE UNIVERSE?!
That spell was obviously created by one of the 'get your filthy sci-fi out of my pristine fantasy' people :)
Can you give me an approximation for when the book will reach Colorado?
Judging by the $7.99 shipping, I'm guessing it'll take a while.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
...mostly, I'm loving this. Mostly.
Then I come to the "Protection from Technology" spell and my brain starts screaming in rage.
I can more or less accept that it would be able to identify and block electrically powered items and so forth, but how in every fiendish afterlife plane can this spell distinguish PHARMACEUTICAL COMPOUNDS from, I don't know, alchemical compounds, or (unliving) organic matter, or EVERY OTHER FORM OF MATTER IN THE UNIVERSE?!
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say, magic. Seriously, it's literal magic. It allows you to play by a completely different set of rules than the rest of the universe.
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Creative Director
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I'm gonna go out on a limb and say, magic. Seriously, it's literal magic. It allows you to play by a completely different set of rules than the rest of the universe....mostly, I'm loving this. Mostly.
Then I come to the "Protection from Technology" spell and my brain starts screaming in rage.
I can more or less accept that it would be able to identify and block electrically powered items and so forth, but how in every fiendish afterlife plane can this spell distinguish PHARMACEUTICAL COMPOUNDS from, I don't know, alchemical compounds, or (unliving) organic matter, or EVERY OTHER FORM OF MATTER IN THE UNIVERSE?!
This is correct.
Pharmaceuticals are to technological items what potions/alchemical items are to magic items.
In other words, a pharmaceutical is created by science, and an alchemical item is created by magic. (The fact that alchemical items don't radiate magic as magic items is, perhaps, an unfortunate oversight—alchemy is not the same as chemistry.)
In fact, that's a better way to look at it.
Alchemy is not the same as chemistry, but both can, in game, create very similar things.
Protection from technology will protect against hard-science creations like those that are built via chemistry (pharmaceuticals), but not against fantasy creations like those built by alchemy (alchemical items).
If that bothers you, then feel free to have protection from technology and the like not work against pharmaceuticals, etc.
But in my mind, at least, the distinction is between chemistry and alchemy.
Re: Protection from Technology: Pharmaceuticals would probably, on a molecular level, look similar to organic matter or inorganic matter. However, there would be certain molecular tags that would mark them as not naturally-occurring. I can't say what those are; I'm not a chemist. However, just as one can tell the difference between opium and heroin, one should be able to tell the difference between the subtly half-magical nature of alchemical compounds, herbal or other naturally-occurring remedies, and man-made or man-refined compounds which do not occur in nature (pharmaceuticals). The magic picks up on those subtle distinctions and blocks the ones that have neither the naturally-occurring nor the half-magical tags.
And now, a question. Can one be a Pistolero Techslinger, or do the two have some overlap in terms of Class Features Altered/Replaced?
And now, a question. Can one be a Pistolero Techslinger, or do the two have some overlap in terms of Class Features Altered/Replaced?
I would say no. Both alter the Gun Training Class feature.
How does this Protection from Technology work? If it only protects against pharmaceuticals then I'd have to say, pertaining to JJ's response comparing them to alchemy, there's no protection from alchemy spell. If it protects from a broader range of technology then its even worse, and I'll probably be takin g a black marker to my book.
Also, no one answered me as to when this info will be added to the SRD
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Creative Director
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How does this Protection from Technology work? If it only protects against pharmaceuticals then I'd have to say, pertaining to JJ's response comparing them to alchemy, there's no protection from alchemy spell. If it protects from a broader range of technology then its even worse, and I'll probably be takin g a black marker to my book.
Also, no one answered me as to when this info will be added to the SRD
A "protection from alchemy" could be an interesting new spell, but that said, alchemical items are generally not going to be as significant or dangerous enough to warrant such a spell. The ones that ARE dangerous, such as alchemist's fire, already have plenty of other ways to avoid them.
"Protection from technology" is basically the same as "protection from evil" and the like, save that it works against things like robots and attacks from technological weapons. It hardly grants complete immunity to technology.
And the hope is that it'll be added to the SRD soon. I'm not gonna say dates though, since it's not my department and I don't know what other things the tech team has on their plate, other than to say that said plate is VERY full.
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In other words, a pharmaceutical is created by science, and an alchemical item is created by magic.
I'm mostly on board with your interpretation, except for your misuse of the term "science," which I really wish you'd stop.
"Non-magical chemical processes," sure. But "science" isn't "things that aren't magic." "Science" is "the study of how the laws of physics work." If magical energies exist, and if they obey laws, the study of the laws that they obey constitute a field of scientific study. Wizards researching new spells are scientists. People crafting magic items are engineers.
Hopefully my email made it in :)
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But "science" isn't "things that aren't magic." "Science" is "the study of how the laws of physics work." If magical energies exist, and if they obey laws, the study of the laws that they obey constitute a field of scientific study.
I think a lot of real scientists would have more of a problem with your naive interpretation of their enterprise than with Mr. Jacob's use of the word in his fantasy setting.
Anywho, I think the Technomancer is pretty sweet. I've been trying to figure out what to do with the gun proficiency, and I don't really see much synergy between it and existing spellcasting classes. But there's so much flavor.
In other words, a pharmaceutical is created by science, and an alchemical item is created by magic.I'm mostly on board with your interpretation, except for your misuse of the term "science," which I really wish you'd stop.
"Non-magical chemical processes," sure. But "science" isn't "things that aren't magic." "Science" is "the study of how the laws of physics work." If magical energies exist, and if they obey laws, the study of the laws that they obey constitute a field of scientific study. Wizards researching new spells are scientists. People crafting magic items are engineers.
I get your point, but it seems like he's using/playing off of the contrast between science and magic in Clarke's Third Law:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
It's a common enough trope to use when mixing the fantasy and sci-fi genres.
And now, a question. Can one be a Pistolero Techslinger, or do the two have some overlap in terms of Class Features Altered/Replaced?I would say no. Both alter the Gun Training Class feature.
In other words, by the rules of mixing archetypes, no, they can't be mixed. Thanks.
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In other words, a pharmaceutical is created by science, and an alchemical item is created by magic.I'm mostly on board with your interpretation, except for your misuse of the term "science," which I really wish you'd stop.
"Non-magical chemical processes," sure. But "science" isn't "things that aren't magic." "Science" is "the study of how the laws of physics work." If magical energies exist, and if they obey laws, the study of the laws that they obey constitute a field of scientific study. Wizards researching new spells are scientists. People crafting magic items are engineers.
Honestly if it bugs people so much in their home games I would just add, "and alchemical items" to the effected list. Since the needs to be a caster portion of craft (alchemy) was removed from the skill then I could totally see it as being some primitive form of chemistry like our alchemy is with them fumbling through the processes in a similar way. I mean it won't really effect power curve that much since, as Mr. Jacobs said himself, those items really don't change a ton of s*~# on their own to begin with.
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Re: Protection from Technology: Pharmaceuticals would probably, on a molecular level, look similar to organic matter or inorganic matter. However, there would be certain molecular tags that would mark them as not naturally-occurring. I can't say what those are; I'm not a chemist.
Neither am I; I'm a physicist. As such, I'm no expert on pharmaceuticals, but I can say with certainty that the *definition* of "organic matter* is pretty much "it contains carbon," and the definition of "inorganic matter" is "it does not contain carbon". There are some exceptions: CO2, for example, is considered inorganic. Pharmaceuticals can be either.
As for "molecular tags that would mark them as not naturally-occurring" I'm pretty sure that a modern organic chemist would say there are no such tags - he "knows" that something is not naturally-occurring because nobody has ever seen it (more to the point, reported seeing it) in nature, and likely because he's some some similar compound produced in a lab.
What this has to do with a spell is a bit curious. Magic in Pathfinder has no logical basis — I'm reminded of Gary Gygax's exasperated response to a correspondent in, I believe, The Strategic Review who kept arguing, trying to "force" Gygax to explain the D&D magic system in a logical way. Finally Gygax said, in effect, "it's that way because I say so. Now shut up!" So I would say that if "the gods" want to say that a "Protection from Technology" spell overcomes the effects of a technologically (as opposed to magically) produced pharmaceutical, well, "it's that way because they say so". :-)
Ed's got it right. Organic and inorganic are purely human constructs that happen to be useful. It's been known for quite some time that equating "organic" with "living" is inaccurate. Many pharmaceuticals are based off a combination of both, and there are no "tags" to indicate how it was produced other than the fact that those particular combinations are not seen in nature. In fact, it can be quite a challenge for forensic scientists to determine the source of an OD for some medications if they are similar to the natural compounds they were derived from. In our world, things are not nearly that clear cut.
Incidentally, the way James used since does work. Scientifically created object would be those that were created using one's knowledge of the laws of reality to achieve the desired result. Yes, its technically engineering, but the two overlap. Magic would be the ability "Tell the laws of physics to shut up and sit down" as one purple-haired elf put it. In other words, it is overriding the normal universal laws. The two can overlap, absolutely, so they could be considered a part of the same occult physics, but one works with normal laws of physics and one works against it. You could even have a particular item doing both at the same time.
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It's clear, to me at least, that "science" and "technology" in Golarion have a rather different meaning then the one used in our world (at least when it comes to the technology of Numeria). The same thing goes for "atheism" as practiced in Rahadoum.
In other words, a pharmaceutical is created by science, and an alchemical item is created by magic.I'm mostly on board with your interpretation, except for your misuse of the term "science," which I really wish you'd stop.
"Non-magical chemical processes," sure. But "science" isn't "things that aren't magic." "Science" is "the study of how the laws of physics work." If magical energies exist, and if they obey laws, the study of the laws that they obey constitute a field of scientific study. Wizards researching new spells are scientists. People crafting magic items are engineers.
but they don't exist or follow the laws of physics, which is why the term magic is used and not science.
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I know this is being a bit difficult, but magic as it is known in D&D actually would be a part of science. It is repeatable and predictable, and is a known part of the world. Thus it is a part of the laws of physics and any scientist/alchemist/whatever would be doing a very poor job if they didn't account for it. I assume wizards researching new spells are in setting the equivalent of research scientists in our's making new vaccine combinations and the like. Most people on Golarion don't understand all of the weird underlying truths and reactions that make up calling magical fire into a perfectly spherical area, so they just take the wizard's word that it's super complicated and "magic". Advanced enough wizards though understand the mechanics of the fireball and what would and wouldn't let it function.
The division between technology and magic in Pathfinder is more of a genre divider between sci-fi things and more straight fantasy things, and trying to get more technical or specific than that is pretty well useless. If you're looking for something with more meaning than that you're going to be disappointed and likely just waste time.
It's not that magic is random and doesn't follow any rules, it's just they aren't the same rules as the rest of reality. Those rules may also not follow scientific principles either, the flow of etherium or some other kind of magicky stuff could wax and wane depending on how happy nethys is today.
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Im pretty sure the physical universe in Golarion is similar to our own. In fact it spells it out that way in similar settings I play in. Magic is not part of the laws of physics here, there for it wouldn't be a part of the laws of physics in Golarion. Sure, you can look at it however you want, it works the same way either way, but I believe my paraphrase above illustrates the general intent, which is that magic is magic, not science.
Well, both methods are perfectly valid playstyles, and the line between them is very fine under most any circumstances. I think the way I see it is how Golarion works, but others may prefer different ways.
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It's not that magic is random and doesn't follow any rules, it's just they aren't the same rules as the rest of reality. Those rules may also not follow scientific principles either, the flow of etherium or some other kind of magicky stuff could wax and wane depending on how happy nethys is today.
That would just be an principle to add to the discussion though. If it's measurable and consistent I fail to see why people in a world where it has always existed would consider it any different from the forces in our world with a less than simplistic explanation. Gravity comes to mind as one of the forces that doesn't quite match up with the others in the real world and takes specialized and advanced enough information that to the layperson it might as well have a magical explanation. Why wouldn't the laws of physics include "the flow of elemental fire from the inner planes to the material is measured with Gandalf's third theorum" then give you a long equation; which is for intents and purposes the same as any other use of physics for explaining the natural world?
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Magic is not part of the laws of physics here
Tell that to Isaac Bonewits, author of Authentic Thaumaturgy and Real Magic and the only person in modern history to have received (much to the University of California's chagrin, I suspect) a degree in Magic from a major US university.
Real Magic was Bonewits' dissertation, still available from Amazon.
Authentic Thaumaturgy is an adaptation of the principles in the dissertation to a D&D like RPG environment. It's available on the net as a free pdf, or from amazon.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6, Contributor
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Magic has laws, they just aren't the laws of physics. Indeed, they violate the law of physics all over the place, including the laws of motion and thermodynamics. You can try and stretch physics to include fantasy magic, but doing so serves both poorly. Accept that in a magical universe, more than one set of rules govern reality, making it quite different from our own world.
It's no odder to be able to shut down technology than shut down magic, in a magical universe.
Magic has laws, they just aren't the laws of physics. Indeed, they violate the law of physics all over the place, including the laws of motion and thermodynamics. You can try and stretch physics to include fantasy magic, but doing so serves both poorly. Accept that in a magical universe, more than one set of rules govern reality, making it quite different from our own world.
It's no odder to be able to shut down technology than shut down magic, in a magical universe.
Read Authentic Thaumaturgy, then we'll have a common basis for discussion.
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This book rustles my jimmies, and mostly in a good way. But...
The rocket launcher only has 10 charges, and it uses 10 charges per use. And when all charges are depleted, it's permanently useless from then on? Also, it seems like quite a lot of items have a woefully low amount of charges in comparison to the amount of power generators and batteries that exist in Golarion.
Can anyone give me info on what the archetypes really do? I'm aware the iron priest can affect constructs now, but what else is there for the other four?
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Creative Director
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This book rustles my jimmies, and mostly in a good way. But...
The rocket launcher only has 10 charges, and it uses 10 charges per use. And when all charges are depleted, it's permanently useless from then on? Also, it seems like quite a lot of items have a woefully low amount of charges in comparison to the amount of power generators and batteries that exist in Golarion.
That is also a typo.
It should use 1 charge per use.
And the fact that there are not many power generators or batteries is one of the ways we built in limitations for how far these items spread out of Numeria—they can, but they run out of juice.
There will be PLENTY of opportunities to recharge items in the Iron Gods AP, though.
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This book rustles my jimmies, and mostly in a good way. But...
The rocket launcher only has 10 charges, and it uses 10 charges per use. And when all charges are depleted, it's permanently useless from then on? Also, it seems like quite a lot of items have a woefully low amount of charges in comparison to the amount of power generators and batteries that exist in Golarion.
That is also a typo.
It should use 1 charge per use.
And the fact that there are not many power generators or batteries is one of the ways we built in limitations for how far these items spread out of Numeria—they can, but they run out of juice.
There will be PLENTY of opportunities to recharge items in the Iron Gods AP, though.
*Palpatine voice* GOoooooooood...
So then are the batteries described on page 41 interchangeable with all items in the book, except for rocket launchers?
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I cannot wait til I have this in my hands. :)
Before "speculative fiction" separated into the genres of science-fiction and fantasy, it was all one big jumble in the pulps, under the general umbrella of "weird fiction." You had things like people being magically transported to other planets, where they fought fantastic aliens with swords, firearms, and rayguns. Those authors who created our favorite genres didn't feel limited by an arbitrary line in what to put in their impossible stories. Magic and super-advanced technology were seen as equally at home in their stories of exciting things that couldn't happen in real life. And of course, HP Lovecraft is famous for have combined fantasy and science fiction with his horror.
Golarion follows the tradition of those stories from the pulps, with its crazy and wonderful combinations of everything, just like the authors of old. The setting would have been incomplete WITHOUT a book like this!
In other words, Clarke's Third Law is wrong.
Of course it is...well in regards to Golarion(or in any world where magic does exist). Because Clarke assumes magic does not exist. So the whole law is based on a faulty logic(well in a fantasy setting where magic does exist).
Personally I was kinda of disappointed in seeing the quote in the first page. Now people will be telling me my expert in magic will not recognize tech as a non magical thing. Sigh.
Otherwise the book is pretty cool from my skim through.
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Creative Director
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This book rustles my jimmies, and mostly in a good way. But...
The rocket launcher only has 10 charges, and it uses 10 charges per use. And when all charges are depleted, it's permanently useless from then on? Also, it seems like quite a lot of items have a woefully low amount of charges in comparison to the amount of power generators and batteries that exist in Golarion.
That is also a typo.
It should use 1 charge per use.
And the fact that there are not many power generators or batteries is one of the ways we built in limitations for how far these items spread out of Numeria—they can, but they run out of juice.
There will be PLENTY of opportunities to recharge items in the Iron Gods AP, though.
*Palpatine voice* GOoooooooood...
So then are the batteries described on page 41 interchangeable with all items in the book, except for rocket launchers?
Batteries can be used to recharge anything that takes energy charges (not nanite charges) and isn't disposable.
If magic and science both work, and magic can't be explained by the current ken of the world gained from science, then magic operates under some higher order of physical law, and the world we live in and that is studied by science is a special case of those higher laws. In a world or story where "magic" and "science/technology" exist side by side and their conflict is thematically important, magic serves to highlight the things we don't know about the universe and have yet to truly comprehend, while science and technology covers the stuff we do.
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Creative Director
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In other words, Clarke's Third Law is wrong.Of course it is...well in regards to Golarion(or in any world where magic does exist). Because Clarke assumes magic does not exist. So the whole law is based on a faulty logic(well in a fantasy setting where magic does exist).
Personally I was kinda of disappointed in seeing the quote in the first page. Now people will be telling me my expert in magic will not recognize tech as a non magical thing. Sigh.
Otherwise the book is pretty cool from my skim through.
I really doubt not using that quote to open the foreword would have changed how people think at all.