Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Advanced Class Guide (OGL)

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Advanced Class Guide (OGL)
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A New Breed of Hero

Adventure like never before with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Advanced Class Guide! Explore new heights of heroism with 10 new base classes, each with 20 levels of amazing abilities. Incredible powers also await existing characters, with more than a hundred new archetypes and class options. Prepare characters for their most legendary adventure ever with massive selections of never-before-seen spells, magic items, and more!

The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Advanced Class Guide is a must-have companion volume to the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook. This imaginative tabletop game builds upon more than 15 years of system development and an open playtest featuring more than 50,000 gamers to create a cutting-edge RPG experience that brings the all-time best-selling set of fantasy rules into the new millennium.

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Advanced Class Guide includes:

  • Ten new base classes—the magic-twisting arcanist, the ferocious bloodrager, the cunning investigator, the daring swashbuckler, the formidable warpriest, and others.
  • Variant class abilities and thematic archetypes for all 29 base classes, such as the counterfeit mage and the mutagenic mauler.
  • Nearly a hundred new feats for characters of all classes, including style feats, teamwork feats like Coordinated Shot, and more.
  • Hundreds of new spells and magic items, such as feast on fear and skullcrusher gauntlets.
  • An entire armory of amazing equipment, from vital new adventuring gear to deadly alchemical weapons.
  • ... and much, much more!

ISBN-13: 978-1-60125-671-3

Errata
Last Updated - 7/22/2015

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A Great (if errata-filled) Book for Players

4/5

This book has gotten a lot of flack for two reasons: (1) A number of people were upset by the large amount of errata posted after the book came out. (2) A number of people were upset by the perceived power-creep that this book carried with it, especially in the archetype section.

Both of these are reasonable complaints that I largely agree with.

That said, this book also contains a cornucopia of player options that are great fun. A number of the classes it introduced are now mainstream: it’s hard to imagine playing the game without options like the Brawler, the Investigator, the Slayer, the Bloodrager, the Hunter, or the Warpriest. Or to play without archetypes like the Bolt Ace (Gunslinger), Mutation Warrior or Martial Master (Fighter).

Moreover, the book introduced a number of feats that improve on the available build options available to most players (Extra Hex! Slashing Grace!). Likewise, although the spells in this book seem to have flown under the radar, there are a lot of nice and interesting spells are introduced in this book (Glue Seal, Communal Align Weapon, Wall of Blindness/Deafness, Wall of Nausea, Anti-Incorporeal Shell, Adjustable Disguise, Adjustable Polymorph, Investigative Mind, etc).

Easily 5 stars worth of good material here. Given the unusually large amount of errata, I feel compelled to deduct a star. But all that said, it’s hard to imagine playing Pathfinder without this book -- after the Core Rulebook and Advanced Players Guide, it’s probably the best book for players to pick up.


Unbalanced, uninspired and rushed.

1/5

This book still sticks out as one of Paizo's biggest missteps. It was extremely rushed and it shows.

At least half of the new classes don't even need to exist as anything other than archetypes. Even among the ones that actually work, most feel very uninspired.

There are a few good things in it, but not really enough to justify buying it. It's not worth your money and it's best not to encourage sloppy work.

Hopefully Paizo learns from this and prioritizes quality over quantity and speed from now on.


A continuing disappointment

1/5

The ACG had problems. Many problems. And it continues to have problems.

From concept ("Let's make ten classes as complicated and broken as the magus, or more so!"), to out-of-whack game design, to simply poor editing, the ACG is a mess. The book's philosophy seems to be "create a new utterly unbalanced mechanic, and proliferate it as far as possible." The (quickly issued) errata pulled some of it a bit more into line, but it just doesn't come close to correcting it.

Even something as simple as alchemical items are way out there. Holy Weapon Balm costs 5gp more than holy water, and does 1400% more damage. And that doesn't even include increasing damage to incorporeal creatures.

Even two years after it was released, I continue to be impressed with the complete disregard for balance and sense in this book. If power creep had happened this much every year, we'd be looking at 9999 damage caps by now. The ACG stands out for its insanity.

Perhaps pulping it for the cover error would have been the better move.


The first real dud in my Pathfinder collection

1/5

I am extremely disappointed in this product, and glad I only purchased the PDF version. As other reviewers have pointed out, the new classes are poorly balanced when compared to the preexisting ones, and would be a better fit for a book like Unchained, much like Unearthed Arcana's gestalt characters.

There's far too many feats and toys dedicated to these new classes, which drastically lessens this book's universal appeal, and even though some contrivances are provided to make some of said feats accessible to other classes, it ends up painting the book's title as a misnomer - it isn't an "advanced class guide" any more than it is a guide mostly about ten new classes, that are "advanced" only in the sense that they're more powerful than the others.

It's my fault for not properly researching the book before buying it, so buyer beware if you're expecting to find a literal advanced class guide, as opposed to a lengthy introduction to ten new ones.


Overall disappointing

2/5

Okay, there's a lot here that's just terribly rushed and it shows, like the editing here is painful at points. The classes themselves range wildly in value, and there's a lot of examples of Paizo's classic retro nerfing of things to help make options here look better. This was an obvious rush to gencon book, and it shows. While not everything in it is bad, and there's some salvageable content, you could easily continue to play the game without this book and miss out on absolutely nohthing.


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4 people marked this as a favorite.
watchmanx wrote:

i dont know how to make my own fourm so i chose this one

my wife died..shes been gone since july2..i was her full time care givers for over 18 years..she had so many health problems those and her meds would fill six pages..she was a fighter and stronger then anyone ive ever met in my life

in her last days i already told james that she told me to tell that james guy i talk about thank you and i said why baby and she said because he made me so happy with his products..

you see my life did not like sc-fi or fantasy..books or movies. had no intrest in rpgs or comics ..but they made me happy and that made her happy..she was sick wheni got the emerald spire in the mail and i was so excited and she was excited because it made me happy...she always wanted to make me happy
i miss her so much..i think i may have to go to grief conselilng....what really hurt me last night..was coming on here like a always do...you see i havent played a rpg in over 20 years but i love reading campaign guides, and rule books and such...well my job was tied to her i worked for the state so suddenly im on unemplyment....i came on there site and there the advanced class guide, the iron gods ap, the people of the stars, the pathfinder tech guide..i relized none of those books would go on my self with the rest of my collection..but worst i would never be able to get them and show them to her and see that look she would get when im so happy...that looks gone forever
in the end i miss her more then i ever thought i could miss anything

thanks comunnity for letting me ramble..i one word of advice is if you love someone tell them...tell them all the time..as the she slipped away at tacoma general the cancer finally taking her..i felt like was slowly turning into a pile of dust....still trying to figure out how to put myself back together
thank all of you for letting me ramble
robert

I hear your message, and I will follow that advice. I hope you get the chance to enjoy playing a game soon. I'm sure she'd like that.

Scarab Sages

Sharkles wrote:
Aside from the new archetypes, is there anything to improve rogues?

The new archetypes are very, very, good. Underground chemist gets sneak attack on splash weapons, and int to damage on splash weapons.


I can only imagine that there is something of use to a rogue in here.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Imbicatus wrote:
Sharkles wrote:
Aside from the new archetypes, is there anything to improve rogues?
The new archetypes are very, very, good. Underground chemist gets sneak attack on splash weapons, and int to damage on splash weapons.

Yes, definitely. It's my favourite rogue archetype so far, but I was referring more to rogue talents and such. I keep yearning for a better way to pull off more than one ranged sneak attack in a round.


Cheapy wrote:
I can only imagine that there is something of use to a rogue in here.

I'd personally love it if a few of the Slayer talents are available to rogues. Particularly combat styles, though I am not picky.


Adam B. 135 wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
I can only imagine that there is something of use to a rogue in here.
I'd personally love it if a few of the Slayer talents are available to rogues. Particularly combat styles, though I am not picky.

Well, rogues can select ninja tricks. Why not slayer or investigator talents?


5 people marked this as a favorite.

Silly people, rogues are to be plundered by other classes, not plundering other classes :)


Sharkles wrote:
Adam B. 135 wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
I can only imagine that there is something of use to a rogue in here.
I'd personally love it if a few of the Slayer talents are available to rogues. Particularly combat styles, though I am not picky.
Well, rogues can select ninja tricks. Why not slayer or investigator talents?

Exactly! I just don't have the book yet, so I don't know if they can.


It would be nice, but adding Combat Style as an option isn't going suddenly make the Rogue that much more attractive. Other than that most of the Slayer talents in the we have seen are either Rogue talents or as weak as Rogue talents and I don't believe they added any new ones.

Contributor

wakedown wrote:

Perhaps it helps those lamenting rapier-use to point out that one of the swashbuckling archetypes allows the Intelligence modifier to be used for damage with rapiers only.

Or that said rapier's panache pool is the combined value of the Charisma and Intelligence modifiers?

QuidEst wrote:
Of course, we always have Irrepressible for those of us who don't care for Wisdom scores.

Take a gander at Steadfast Personality. Use that Charisma for fear effects and more now, too!

What feat really scares me? Reckless Rage. Because barbarians needed more damage. :)

That int swashbuckler sounds awesome. Thanks for the insight!


3 people marked this as a favorite.
watchmanx wrote:

i dont know how to make my own fourm so i chose this one

my wife died..shes been gone since july2..i was her full time care givers for over 18 years..she had so many health problems those and her meds would fill six pages..she was a fighter and stronger then anyone ive ever met in my life

in her last days i already told james that she told me to tell that james guy i talk about thank you and i said why baby and she said because he made me so happy with his products..

you see my life did not like sc-fi or fantasy..books or movies. had no intrest in rpgs or comics ..but they made me happy and that made her happy..she was sick wheni got the emerald spire in the mail and i was so excited and she was excited because it made me happy...she always wanted to make me happy
i miss her so much..i think i may have to go to grief conselilng....what really hurt me last night..was coming on here like a always do...you see i havent played a rpg in over 20 years but i love reading campaign guides, and rule books and such...well my job was tied to her i worked for the state so suddenly im on unemplyment....i came on there site and there the advanced class guide, the iron gods ap, the people of the stars, the pathfinder tech guide..i relized none of those books would go on my self with the rest of my collection..but worst i would never be able to get them and show them to her and see that look she would get when im so happy...that looks gone forever
in the end i miss her more then i ever thought i could miss anything

thanks comunnity for letting me ramble..i one word of advice is if you love someone tell them...tell them all the time..as the she slipped away at tacoma general the cancer finally taking her..i felt like was slowly turning into a pile of dust....still trying to figure out how to put myself back together
thank all of you for letting me ramble
robert

My condolences on your loss. I know what it's like to lose loved ones to cancer, and to say that trying to continue on afterwards is a struggle is an unbelievable understatement. I hope you have friends and family around you to help you through this, and that you can continue to find joy in things like RPG books and gaming. While it may sound trite, I'm sure that's what your wife would have wanted.

Shadow Lodge

Sharkles wrote:
Well, rogues can select ninja tricks. Why not slayer or investigator talents?

Twist Away.

That is all.


Can someone tell me if Warpriests get the ability/can get the ability to select Domains and maybe Inquisitions?


thanks necro :) i need book, damned time dont run :P


Tels wrote:


The point is, that a proper piercing weapons requires very little strength to actually stab someone with. At least, if you're not wearing armor anyway.

Even with a dull knife, take a 5 lbs. weight and put it on the pommel of the knife and you'll see it cut into someone. If you take a common steak knife, and a board, and you just drop the knife from about waist height, and you'll see it stick into the board fairly often. Now imagine if that was your neck, or chest, instead. Might not kill you, but it will pierce your skin.

The whole point of dexterity to damage is that you have to exploit weaknesses, like stabbing at the creases int he armor, or something like that. Where as someone with a high strength and a big sword can just smash their way through...

Rapiers definitely had blades, but smallswords didn't and that might be what your friend got as a gift. Fencing with a rapier has a lot of differences than modern sports fencing with a foil (such as using cuts) and in my experience doing both, a rapier requires a good amount of strength to properly use in a duel. To stab a piece of meat on a cutting board with a kitchen knife would obviously require minimal effort, but trying to get past an opponents blade requires more strength with a rapier to handle properly gwt a solid thrust than using pistol grip foils. I never liked the idea of a dex to damage feat for a piercing weapon (such as a rapier) because of how much physical strength it can take me to properly handle a rapier for any extended amount of time. It makes sense for slashing weapons, but I simply don't see the argument for a piercing weapon.


  • Any Skald Archetype that get Bardic performances?

  • Any Bard love? Feat that let improved bardic performance or let you use 2 performances at the same time? Have they fixed versatile performance? A feat so you can redistribute skills? Any magic or mundane toys? Instrument that can double as a weapon??

  • More info on the Shaman spell list? Please :) BTW, I actually like it only got light armor.

  • Is the investigator awesome and is there still a way for him to disable magic traps?

On the Swashbuckler and dex to damage topic: Am I right it can’t use the most iconic Swashbuckler weapon, the rapier, and add dex to damage with it? Is it also so that it can’t also use the second most iconic weapon, the Scimitar, because you can’t use weapon finesse with that weapon? Have I misunderstood something or is this the case?

Hunter loosing cantrips? Strange and bad, in my opinion.


So, after reading all the comments on here, as well as all of the previews, I am torn. There is definitely some interesting, awesome stuff in here. However, what would be interesting to me seems outweighed by stuff that I feel neutral about(such as the investigator, which I wouldn't really be interested in if it weren't for the Mastermind archetype) or not interested in at all(equipment, as I build most of my characters to function well with or without equipment.

However, there is one thing that I really need to know to decide properly:

Are there any bloodlines for sorcerers? If so, could someone just list them along with a brief description?

Sorcerers are always my favorite class, so that's a pretty major factor in deciding on this. I know about the two archetypes for it, but no idea about any bloodlines.

I'd really appreciate it, thanks.


Agree, are there any bloodlines for sorcerers?

Silver Crusade

4 people marked this as a favorite.

Whoever came up with the Daring Champion archetype for Cavaliers? I love them and I want to give them a hug.


What does it get and what does it keep?

Grand Lodge

Rysky wrote:
Whoever came up with the Daring Champion archetype for Cavaliers? I love them and I want to give them a hug.

If that's the one where they give up the pet for some swashbucklery then it will be a group bear hug!

SM

Silver Crusade

5 people marked this as a favorite.
StarMartyr365 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Whoever came up with the Daring Champion archetype for Cavaliers? I love them and I want to give them a hug.

If that's the one where they give up the pet for some swashbucklery then it will be a group bear hug!

SM

Yes it! Go to hell Horsey!

I can finally be a knight that focuses on swordsmanship and badassary.


Rysky wrote:
StarMartyr365 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Whoever came up with the Daring Champion archetype for Cavaliers? I love them and I want to give them a hug.

If that's the one where they give up the pet for some swashbucklery then it will be a group bear hug!

SM

Yes it! Go to hell Horsey!

I can finally be a knight that focuses on swordsmanship and badassary.

It is funny because I just wrote a cavalier and samurai archetype that replaces the mounts for my group. This will probably be cooler though.


Rysky wrote:
StarMartyr365 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Whoever came up with the Daring Champion archetype for Cavaliers? I love them and I want to give them a hug.

If that's the one where they give up the pet for some swashbucklery then it will be a group bear hug!

SM

Yes it! Go to hell Horsey!

I can finally be a knight that focuses on swordsmanship and badassary.

But...sigh. Not going to waste my time anymore never going to convince people a base Cavalier is really not that reliant on their mount anyway.


Rysky wrote:
StarMartyr365 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Whoever came up with the Daring Champion archetype for Cavaliers? I love them and I want to give them a hug.

If that's the one where they give up the pet for some swashbucklery then it will be a group bear hug!

SM

Yes it! Go to hell Horsey!

I can finally be a knight that focuses on swordsmanship and badassary.

That is very good news.

A group bear hug? Count me in!

Shadow Lodge

9 people marked this as a favorite.
StarMartyr365 wrote:
If that's the one where they give up the pet for some swashbucklery then it will be a group bear hug!

Time for the group bear hug!

For those of you who are just relying on the little bit being given in this thread, there is SO MUCH IN THIS BOOK. SO MUCH MORE THAN THE LITTLE BITS THAT HAVE BEEN REVEALED THUS FAR.

Pretty much imagine anything.

Do you want slayer talents and sneak attack on your inquisitor? Check.

Do you want warpriest blessings for your oracle, cleric or inquisitor? Check.

Do you want mutagens and discoveries for your fighter? Check.

Do you want hexes for your summoner? Check.

Do you want to use crossbows as touch attacks reloading them as quickly as "not an action"? Check.

Do you want your rogue to roll his Reflex save in place of rolling Fortitude saves? And get evasion for it? Check.

Literally... mind blown by all the bits all throughout this book. If you were on the fence, get off and buy this book. You'll get years more of Pathfinder from it if you were feeling like you had exhausted the possibilities available thus far.


John Kretzer wrote:
Rysky wrote:
StarMartyr365 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Whoever came up with the Daring Champion archetype for Cavaliers? I love them and I want to give them a hug.

If that's the one where they give up the pet for some swashbucklery then it will be a group bear hug!

SM

Yes it! Go to hell Horsey!

I can finally be a knight that focuses on swordsmanship and badassary.

But...sigh. Not going to waste my time anymore never going to convince people a base Cavalier is really not that reliant on their mount anyway.

I don't think the problem is so much that it's reliant on it (as far as I'm concerned anyway), it's more that it uses up a class feature that is never going to be of use to me, because mounted combat has not once come up in any of my games.


wakedown wrote:
StarMartyr365 wrote:
If that's the one where they give up the pet for some swashbucklery then it will be a group bear hug!

Time for the group bear hug!

For those of you who are just relying on the little bit being given in this thread, there is SO MUCH IN THIS BOOK. SO MUCH MORE THAN THE LITTLE BITS THAT HAVE BEEN REVEALED THUS FAR.

Pretty much imagine anything.

Do you want slayer talents and sneak attack on your inquisitor? Check.

Do you want warpriest blessings for your oracle, cleric or inquisitor? Check.

Do you want mutagens and discoveries for your fighter? Check.

Do you want hexes for your summoner? Check.

Do you want to use crossbows as touch attacks reloading them as quickly as "not an action"? Check.

Do you want your rogue to roll his Reflex save in place of rolling Fortitude saves? And get evasion for it? Check.

Literally... mind blown by all the bits all throughout this book. If you were on the fence, get off and buy this book. You'll get years more of Pathfinder from it if you were feeling like you had exhausted the possibilities available thus far.

Sounds great! :D

Would you mind? ;P

  • Any Skald Archetype that get Bardic performances?

  • Any Bard love? Feat that let improved bardic performance or let you use 2 performances at the same time? Have they fixed versatile performance? A feat so you can redistribute skills? Any magic or mundane toys? Instrument that can double as a weapon??


  • Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Jason Bulmahn wrote:

    A note to the folks in this thread,

    There are a lot of questions flying around, demands for answers, and just general curiosity. There are a few issues in this book we are going to be addressing in the coming days (/weeks with Gencon being next week and all), so I just wanted to give everyone a heads up and ask for your patience.

    Feel free to get excited, feel free to ask questions, thats all good. Just don't get upset if you don't get an answer right away. Most people don't even have the book yet and we are neck deep in con prep and getting a book out the door.

    And please refrain from posting entire sections verbatim until everyone has access to the book.

    Jason Bulmahn
    Lead Designer

    Well, if you are not going to address the topic here about why slashing weapons get Dex-to-damage as soon as level 1 for human swashbucklers and level 2 for fighters, while piercing weapons (including the most iconic swashbuckler weapon, the rapier) get left out, then I hope that someone is going to bring forward those concerns at one of the GenCon seminars, so that you can address it there.

    Not to mention that I hope that information then gets reported back to us on the messageboard, since much of your customer base does not even have the chance to attend GenCon, which for example is on another continent for me.


    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Tels wrote:
    So... in order for people to get dex to damage with their rapier they have to dip the Swashbuckler class? Kind of defeats the purpose of a book that was designed to remove the need for people to have to dip a class to make a concept work...

    Actually, they would need to dip into Swashbuckler for their dex-to-damage, anyway, since only with swashbuckler finesse + slashing grace it would be legal to use some of those one-handed slashing weapons as finessable weapons in the first place. ^^

    Silver Crusade

    Tinkergoth wrote:
    John Kretzer wrote:
    Rysky wrote:
    StarMartyr365 wrote:
    Rysky wrote:
    Whoever came up with the Daring Champion archetype for Cavaliers? I love them and I want to give them a hug.

    If that's the one where they give up the pet for some swashbucklery then it will be a group bear hug!

    SM

    Yes it! Go to hell Horsey!

    I can finally be a knight that focuses on swordsmanship and badassary.

    But...sigh. Not going to waste my time anymore never going to convince people a base Cavalier is really not that reliant on their mount anyway.

    I don't think the problem is so much that it's reliant on it (as far as I'm concerned anyway), it's more that it uses up a class feature that is never going to be of use to me, because mounted combat has not once come up in any of my games.

    Same here. My previous statement was almost entirely in jest, I have no hatred of mounts and mounted combat, it's just not my cup of tea.


    magnuskn wrote:
    Well, if you are not going to address the topic here about why slashing weapons get Dex-to-damage as soon as level 1 for human swashbucklers and level 2 for fighters, then I hope that someone is going to bring forward those concerns at one of the GenCon seminars, so that you can address it there. Not to mention that I hope that information then gets reported back to us on the messageboard, since much of your customer base does not even have the chance to attend GenCon, which for example is on another continent for me.

    Or, you know, wait until the GenCon dust settles and the Paizo guys have a wee bit more time to sit down and discuss the book on the message boards. :)


    Brybry wrote:
    Tels wrote:


    The point is, that a proper piercing weapons requires very little strength to actually stab someone with. At least, if you're not wearing armor anyway.

    Even with a dull knife, take a 5 lbs. weight and put it on the pommel of the knife and you'll see it cut into someone. If you take a common steak knife, and a board, and you just drop the knife from about waist height, and you'll see it stick into the board fairly often. Now imagine if that was your neck, or chest, instead. Might not kill you, but it will pierce your skin.

    The whole point of dexterity to damage is that you have to exploit weaknesses, like stabbing at the creases int he armor, or something like that. Where as someone with a high strength and a big sword can just smash their way through...

    Rapiers definitely had blades, but smallswords didn't and that might be what your friend got as a gift. Fencing with a rapier has a lot of differences than modern sports fencing with a foil (such as using cuts) and in my experience doing both, a rapier requires a good amount of strength to properly use in a duel. To stab a piece of meat on a cutting board with a kitchen knife would obviously require minimal effort, but trying to get past an opponents blade requires more strength with a rapier to handle properly gwt a solid thrust than using pistol grip foils. I never liked the idea of a dex to damage feat for a piercing weapon (such as a rapier) because of how much physical strength it can take me to properly handle a rapier for any extended amount of time. It makes sense for slashing weapons, but I simply don't see the argument for a piercing weapon.

    I don't want to argue with you about this as I don't know nearly enough about rapiers to be any sort of authority. Only thing I can say is that my friend has told me, repeatedly, that wielding a rapier relies far more on his agility and dexterity than his strength.

    There is a difference, after all, between brute strength and endurance. Someone can have a lot of endurance without bulking muscles, look at people like runners or gymnasts. Not saying they aren't strong, but aren't rippling with muscles as one would be in Pathfinder.

    As for his swords (he has 3 I think), all of the blades are 3 ft. in length or longer; so I doubt they're 'short blades'.

    I do know that he told me that, in essence, there are three kinds of rapiers. One was a piercing rapier, that the modern foil is descended from; it was used entirely for thrusting attacks and only the tip had an edge so that it could slide in and out of the body quickly. One was more like a conventional longsword; it had an edge to it and didn't make thrusts because it was a heavier blade and you couldn't retract it quickly if you hit. The third was an attempt at a hybrid between the two, in which it would be easy to thrust with, and have a slashing edge; it didn't work well because the blade was too thick for thrusts, but it wasn't strong enough for slashes and they just never really worked well.

    However, the rapier as depicted in Pathfinder is a thrusting weapon, which relies a lot on being quick, precise, and agile. That is, according to what my friend has told me, the videos I've watched, and what little I've read on it.


    magnuskn wrote:
    Jason Bulmahn wrote:

    A note to the folks in this thread,

    There are a lot of questions flying around, demands for answers, and just general curiosity. There are a few issues in this book we are going to be addressing in the coming days (/weeks with Gencon being next week and all), so I just wanted to give everyone a heads up and ask for your patience.

    Feel free to get excited, feel free to ask questions, thats all good. Just don't get upset if you don't get an answer right away. Most people don't even have the book yet and we are neck deep in con prep and getting a book out the door.

    And please refrain from posting entire sections verbatim until everyone has access to the book.

    Jason Bulmahn
    Lead Designer

    Well, if you are not going to address the topic here about why slashing weapons get Dex-to-damage as soon as level 1 for human swashbucklers and level 2 for fighters, then I hope that someone is going to bring forward those concerns at one of the GenCon seminars, so that you can address it there. Not to mention that I hope that information then gets reported back to us on the messageboard, since much of your customer base does not even have the chance to attend GenCon, which for example is on another continent for me.

    You mean don't get dex - to - damage, don't you? To the big question is why not to rapier?


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    Zark wrote:

    On the Swashbuckler and dex to damage topic: Am I right it can’t use the most iconic Swashbuckler weapon, the rapier, and add dex to damage with it? Is it also so that it can’t also use the second most iconic weapon, the Scimitar, because you can’t use weapon finesse with that weapon? Have I misunderstood something or is this the case?

    I don't have the book myself, but based off what I've read here, it seems that Slashing Grace allows you to deal Dex to Damage with one-handed slashing weapons.

    Not slashing light weapons (like a Wakizashi), or slashing 2-handed weapons (like an Elven Curved Blade), or one-handed piercing weapons (like a Rapier), or light piercing weapons (like a shortsword); it only works on slashing one-handed weapons.

    Second, Slashing Grace doesn't allow you to treat the weapon as finesseable. So if you use Slashing Grace with a longsword, you get to make your attack roll with your strength score, and your damage roll with your dexterity score.

    However, if you are a Swashbuckler, you can wield a Scimitar and treat it as a one-handed piercing weapon(with Slashing Grace), which allows you to use your dexterity score for attack rolls once you get Swashbuckler's Finesse. Swashbucklers Finesse, being the ability that lets you use your dexterity score for attack rolls with all light or one-handed piercing weapons.

    So... this means that a Swashbuckler treats a battleaxe as a one-handed piercing weapon if he has Slashing Grace, which lets him use his dexterity score for both his attack rolls and damage rolls with his battleaxe.

    Let me reiterate. He uses his dexterity for attack and damage with his batlleaxe!

    Since a Rapier isn't a one-handed slahsing weapon, he can't get Dex to Damage with it. So the most iconic Swashbuckler weapon in all of film or literature history... cannot be used as effectively on the Swashbuckler class as an axe can.

    This completely boggles my mind.


    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Heine Stick wrote:
    magnuskn wrote:
    Well, if you are not going to address the topic here about why slashing weapons get Dex-to-damage as soon as level 1 for human swashbucklers and level 2 for fighters, then I hope that someone is going to bring forward those concerns at one of the GenCon seminars, so that you can address it there. Not to mention that I hope that information then gets reported back to us on the messageboard, since much of your customer base does not even have the chance to attend GenCon, which for example is on another continent for me.
    Or, you know, wait until the GenCon dust settles and the Paizo guys have a wee bit more time to sit down and discuss the book on the message boards. :)

    At GenCon, they can't run way. :p

    Seriously, I slept over it and am still just as upset as I was when I went to sleep. :-/ The bastard sword and dwarven waraxe get dex-to-damage, but the rapier does not? What?!?


    wakedown wrote:
    Do you want slayer talents and sneak attack on your inquisitor? Check.

    Oh, crap! I may have to completely reimagine/rework the Slayer/Inquisitor that I have then!

    Is this the Sanctified Slayer archetype?


    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Zark wrote:
    You mean don't get dex - to - damage, don't you? To the big question is why not to rapier?

    Yes, sorry, I have been up for maybe 30 minutes and am still rubbing the sleep out of my eyes. I could be formulating better, but sleepy + being upset are not the best combination, I fear.

    What I meant to say was, please someone ask Jason/the developers at GenCon why slashing weapons get dex-to-damage, while piercing weapons (which include the most iconic swashbuckler weapon, the rapier) are left out. Since even unwieldy weapons like the bastard sword and dwarven waraxe get this benefit, while some of the most dexterity based weapons do not get it, this is puzzling and upsetting and seems to sabotage the Swashbuckler right out of the gate.


    Agree

    Liberty's Edge

    Also agreed. Much as playing a swashbuckling Viking with a battleaxe sounds fun, I don't think it should be more mechanically optimal than, say, Jirelle.


    It'd be like if the introduced a Wizard that can't use a staff, or wand.


    Tels wrote:
    Zark wrote:

    On the Swashbuckler and dex to damage topic: Am I right it can’t use the most iconic Swashbuckler weapon, the rapier, and add dex to damage with it? Is it also so that it can’t also use the second most iconic weapon, the Scimitar, because you can’t use weapon finesse with that weapon? Have I misunderstood something or is this the case?

    I don't have the book myself, but based off what I've read here, it seems that Slashing Grace allows you to deal Dex to Damage with one-handed slashing weapons.

    Not slashing light weapons (like a Wakizashi), or slashing 2-handed weapons (like an Elven Curved Blade), or one-handed piercing weapons (like a Rapier), or light piercing weapons (like a shortsword); it only works on slashing one-handed weapons.

    Second, Slashing Grace doesn't allow you to treat the weapon as finesseable. So if you use Slashing Grace with a longsword, you get to make your attack roll with your strength score, and your damage roll with your dexterity score.

    However, if you are a Swashbuckler, you can wield a Scimitar and treat it as a one-handed piercing weapon(with Slashing Grace), which allows you to use your dexterity score for attack rolls once you get Swashbuckler's Finesse. Swashbucklers Finesse, being the ability that lets you use your dexterity score for attack rolls with all light or one-handed piercing weapons.

    So... this means that a Swashbuckler treats a battleaxe as a one-handed piercing weapon if he has Slashing Grace, which lets him use his dexterity score for both his attack rolls and damage rolls with his battleaxe.

    Let me reiterate. He uses his dexterity for attack and damage with his batlleaxe!

    Since a Rapier isn't a one-handed slahsing weapon, he can't get Dex to Damage with it. So the most iconic Swashbuckler weapon in all of film or literature history... cannot be used as effectively on the Swashbuckler class as an axe can.

    This completely boggles my mind.

    I’m upset. Very upset. I can see the need to stop abuse of the lance, but why not just add rapier as an exception. Just as the have with weapon finesse.


    Tels wrote:
    It'd be like if the introduced a Wizard that can't use a staff, or wand.

    Or retracted the 50% damage benefit of two-handed weapons.


    Ashram wrote:
    Tels wrote:
    It'd be like if the introduced a Wizard that can't use a staff, or wand.
    Or retracted the 50% damage benefit of two-handed weapons.

    Not the same. See, the Rapier is absolutely *the* iconic Swashbuckling weapon. The Swashbuckler, being an agile and dexterous combatant, and the rapier being an agile blade which the Lightsaber (an elegant weapon of a more civilized age) was based off of. So it would make sense that the Swashbuckler would be able to use his Dexterity to deal damage with the Rapier.

    But no. So the Swashbuckler can't use a rapier, the iconic swashbuckling weapon, as effectively as he can use a battle axe, or a longsword.

    It's more like a Wizard that can't use a staff as a Wizard with a staff is about as iconic as one can get.

    I mean, there are some iconic images that just go together:

    Wizards have staffs,
    Swashbucklers have rapiers,
    Knights have a lance or sword,
    Vikings have an axe,
    Samurai have Katana,
    Ninja have shuriken,
    Robin Hood has a bow etc.

    These are images that belong together. So lets build a game where none of them can use their iconic gear.

    Wizards don't use staves, swashbucklers can't use rapiers, knights don't get lances, or swords, or armor, or horses, vikings are sophisticated as f$&# and drink tea and never wield weapons, samurai live in caves and use clubs, ninja get drunk all the time and stumble around making lots of noise and have never heard of subtlety, and Robin Hood is named as such because he is actually a little girl named Robin that wears a hood.

    Makes sense to me right?


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    Ugh, I should just avoid this thread all together. Honestly, I'm not sure what annoys me more, the fact Rapiers don't get dex to damage, or that there is no Energy Sword in the book that is supposed to mix Science-Fiction with Sword and Sorcery Fantasy.

    Likeness to the Lightsaber be damned, there should have been an energy blade in that book.


    1 person marked this as a favorite.

    It is nice to hear that Monks FINALLY got a nice thing. How many Pummeling feats are their?


    Tels wrote:

    So... this means that a Swashbuckler treats a battleaxe as a one-handed piercing weapon if he has Slashing Grace, which lets him use his dexterity score for both his attack rolls and damage rolls with his battleaxe.

    Let me reiterate. He uses his dexterity for attack and damage with his batlleaxe!

    Since a Rapier isn't a one-handed slahsing weapon, he can't get Dex to Damage with it. So the most iconic Swashbuckler weapon in all of film or literature history... cannot be used as effectively on the Swashbuckler class as an axe can.

    This completely boggles my mind.

    He probably won't though, since he needs the 18-20 crit range. So scimitar it is. Or a katana if he's prepared to spend an extra feat. Shame.

    But what about the equipment section? Any new/cool weapons there?


    Jinete wrote:
    Tels wrote:

    So... this means that a Swashbuckler treats a battleaxe as a one-handed piercing weapon if he has Slashing Grace, which lets him use his dexterity score for both his attack rolls and damage rolls with his battleaxe.

    Let me reiterate. He uses his dexterity for attack and damage with his batlleaxe!

    Since a Rapier isn't a one-handed slahsing weapon, he can't get Dex to Damage with it. So the most iconic Swashbuckler weapon in all of film or literature history... cannot be used as effectively on the Swashbuckler class as an axe can.

    This completely boggles my mind.

    He probably won't though, since he needs the 18-20 crit range. So scimitar it is. Or a katana if he's prepared to spend an extra feat. Shame.

    But what about the equipment section? Any new/cool weapons there?

    It's kind of funny... People wanted a Dex to Damage feat because they didn't want to all be shoehorned into using the Scimitar with Dervish Dance, or be forced to wait until level 6+ to be able to deal Dex to Damage with their Swashbuckler...

    So they make us a feat that makes Scimitar the best option in an entirely different way...

    Congratulations, you don't have to take Dervish Dance. But you still have to use a Scimitar.


    Tels wrote:
    Ashram wrote:
    Tels wrote:
    It'd be like if the introduced a Wizard that can't use a staff, or wand.
    Or retracted the 50% damage benefit of two-handed weapons.

    Not the same. See, the Rapier is absolutely *the* iconic Swashbuckling weapon. The Swashbuckler, being an agile and dexterous combatant, and the rapier being an agile blade which the Lightsaber (an elegant weapon of a more civilized age) was based off of. So it would make sense that the Swashbuckler would be able to use his Dexterity to deal damage with the Rapier.

    But no. So the Swashbuckler can't use a rapier, the iconic swashbuckling weapon, as effectively as he can use a battle axe, or a longsword.

    It's more like a Wizard that can't use a staff as a Wizard with a staff is about as iconic as one can get.

    I mean, there are some iconic images that just go together:

    Wizards have staffs,
    Swashbucklers have rapiers,
    Knights have a lance or sword,
    Vikings have an axe,
    Samurai have Katana,
    Ninja have shuriken,
    Robin Hood has a bow etc.

    These are images that belong together. So lets build a game where none of them can use their iconic gear.

    Wizards don't use staves, swashbucklers can't use rapiers, knights don't get lances, or swords, or armor, or horses, vikings are sophisticated as f$~% and drink tea and never wield weapons, samurai live in caves and use clubs, ninja get drunk all the time and stumble around making lots of noise and have never heard of subtlety, and Robin Hood is named as such because he is actually a little girl named Robin that wears a hood.

    Makes sense to me right?

    Is it such a big deal to pick up an agile enchantment?


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    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Calth wrote:
    Is it such a big deal to pick up an agile enchantment?

    Agile is from a Golarion specific book. Many GM's only allow stuff from the setting-agnostic hardcovers.

    Even if that were not the case, giving dex-to-damage to bastard swords and dwarven waraxes but not rapiers still is a bizarre decision by the developers.

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