Aleron |
Bought because I definitely want to support more of these types of releases (plus I know Preston is going to ask me to let him run this class heh). Anyway, it is a very cool class but my first impression was had me wondering if it might be a little too good.
Examples of what I mean by that is it receives hide in plain sight much faster than a shadowdancer of similar level (my gut would have said 5th maybe but not sooner than that). Keeping in mind the shadowdancer has to spend a lot of feats before it can even take that prestige class. Additionally, it receives improved evasion faster than any other class I know of. I'm uncertain if requiring more stats with the pools really evens these out or not. It's actually the only Interjection release I've really wondered much about, so kudos to you for that.
Would love to hear your thoughts on why you went in the direction you did if you care to share them.
Also noticed a few formatting and editing errors.
Cushioned Landing shows as requiring "X Shadow Points". How much should it require?
Under Erupting Mote: Requires: radiant mote waypoint
(Think that should be capitalized for the radiant, not sure though)
Interjection Games |
Balance
Improved Evasion is at 9th for 3 reasons
- 10th level is full of good stuff and 10th level improved evasion has rogue flavor
- A monk gets improved evasion at 9th level, therefore giving 9th level improved evasion monk flavor if applied to another class
- By making some abilities feel rogue and others monk, I help build up the concept of edgewalker as something that isn't quite entirely like anything else.
I am also worried about hide in plain sight, particularly since I placed it there to deal with a "dead" level. You know that I'm one for making changes in production should the opinion swing one way or the other. To that end, I'm more than willing to swap that and uncanny dodge around, though we'll have to be very careful. I went with HIPS instead of uncanny dodge early for three reasons.
- As HIPS is an ability usually handed out inside of a prestige class, it would not break prestige class entry requirements if given early. Uncanny dodge might.
- Many groups don't read into the rules and play Stealth like everyone has HIPS, anyway. A class that gets the ability super early does much to give a cultureshocked an out. He can play this class and play Stealth the way he's used to it.
- HIPS is only really "breakable" with super expensive poisons and an assassin's death attack, neither of which I'm all that worried about. Without that, it's an at-will, self-only version of what has now been cheapened to a 1st level spell.
Formatting
As for the requires, barring the unofficial tables that add the header for rogue talents on the d20pfsrd, I haven't seen a spell or talent capitalized when named a prerequisite. I followed suit so nobody will get confused as to whether this is a talent or a feat requirement. I readily admit I don't own any of the physical books, so I could be dead wrong on this one.
Cushioned Landing has a variable cost. You can spend any amount of shadow points to ignore that many "d6" of falling damage, so long as the amount prevented is less than half of the total.
Power
I honestly feel this is among my weaker classes, a solid low to mid tier 3. By comparison, the tinker is a high tier 3, the ethermancer a tier 2, the herbalist a tier 2 (or a tier 1 if played by a beancounter), the gadgeteer a tier 3, and the truenamer a tier 2.
I have a feeling that the reason it may seem powerful to you is that my rule of "don't make anything obsolete" does not extend to monks, fighters, or rogues because they're what we can only describe as tier 5 and in need of a revision. I did what I could to work with a rogue baseline. Note the talent track for the waypoints, the lack of trap sense and trapfinding to pay for IPS and improved evasion, and a reduced sneak attack and skill points to pay for the bonus shadow/radiance points. The four greater waypoints do not have an associated cost, which makes this class strictly better than a rogue in a generic sense, though rogue does indeed have its advantages in certain cases.
If there's anything else, let me know, sir. Happy to answer!
Aleron |
Yeah, Preston pointed out to me about Cushioned Landing a little earlier tonight and made me feel pretty silly. We were also talking it over tonight and were considering swapping HiPS with Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge with Improved Evasion for levels gained. No empty levels that way either. Still deciding on it, might leave it as is until we have a chance to actually test it in a game and see. Rogue sorts do tend to have it on the rough side so this might just be plain better to leave as is.
The only other thing I noticed in my initial read through that I was wondering about was Lightbringer. Three at will cantrips for a permanent loss of 2 to your radiance pool seems...brutal to be honest. I could see one, but you're already spending a waypoint on it and that's probably enough in my opinion. Curious on your thoughts for that?
Still taking in the rest, but thanks for the quick reply! Put a lot into perspective and gave me more to think over. Glad to see it is selling fairly(?) well... (admitting I have no idea if 30 for a week is decent or not heh).
Interjection Games |
It's a good fix, Aleron. Late improved evasion is certainly not monk flavorful, but it gets the proper mechanics with a minimum of shenanigans. It's the best route without making this product more work than it's worth. Making the changes.
Um... that's because Lightbringer is missing part of itself. The daze should have the note that it works on anything up to 4 HD or half your level. Fixing immediately and adding flare, mass at high level for good measure.
Aleron |
We're building an Edgewalker for an upcoming campaign and think we found a minor mistake:
Shadow Dance (Dark)
Cost: 2 Shadow Points
Requires: Dodge
You can dance with the shadows as a standard action,
granting you a +2 dodge bonus to AC for rounds equal to
your Intelligence modifier. At 11th level, this ability may
be used as a swift action; however, using this ability as a
swift action increases its cost to 2 Shadow Points.
Says it costs 2 to use and at 11th can be used as a swift but increases the cost to 2. Should it cost 1 normally or when doing it as a swift should it cost 3?
Liz Courts Webstore Gninja Minion |
The Ragi |
The edgewalker gets a character sheet this week, and it can be freely downloaded right here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vyj3o31zcublg4h/edgewalker_sheet.zip?dl=0.
Eagerly waiting to make one for the edgeblade. =)
The Ragi |
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And I also made this list of waypoints and the level you can pick them up.
Posting it here so more people can make use of it - seems specially useful if building a higher level edgewalker and to plan for greater waypoints.
Really digging this subsystem.
~~//~~ Edgewalker Waypoints by minimum level required ~~//~~
Edgewalker 1
Armor of the Dawn (Light)
Black Wind (Dark)
Conjured from Nothing (Dark)
Dazzling Presence (Light)
Eventide (Dark)
Flanking Phantasm (Dark) - Requires any 2 teamwork feats.
Gliding Shadow (Dark)
Ichor of the Firefly (Light)
Ichor of Selective Oblivion (Dark)
Ignite Poison (Light)
Insubstantial Toxin (Dark, Light) - Requires poison use class feature or the level 1 waypoint.
Lightbringer (Light)
Needles of Light (Light)
Peering Shadows (Dark) - Requires 1 rank in Stealth.
Pillar of Light (Light)
Poison Use (Dark or Light)
Reflection (Light)
Refraction (Light)
Shadow Dance (Dark) - Requires the Dodge feat.
Shadow Snare (Dark)
Shadowy Illumination (Dark, Light) - Requires at least one dark and one light waypoints.
Study the Illuminant (Light)
Study the Illusive (Dark)
Tenebrous Implements
Ward Against the Glow (Dark)
Ward Against the Shadow (Light)
Edgewalker 2
Clothed in Obscurity (Dark)
Gloom's Embrace (Dark)
Hide in Darkness (Dark)
Lingering Twilight (Dark, Light)
Noonday Sight (Light)
Strand of Darkness (Dark) - Requires Weapon Finesse feat.
Thousand Points of Light (Light) - Requires Dodge feat.
Tipped with Midnight (Dark) - Requires two dark waypoints.
Tipped with Noon (Light) - Requires two light waypoints.
Edgewalker 3
Luminous Legerdemain (Light) - Requires 3 ranks in Disable Device.
Edgewalker 4
A Thousand Grasping Tendrils (Dark)
Abrupt Shift (Dark, Light)
Brilliant Display (Light)
Cushioned Landing (Dark)
Encroaching Miasma (Dark)
On Wings of Light (Light) - Requires 4 ranks in Fly.
Edgewalker 5
Toxin Manufacturer (Dark or Light) - Requires poison use class feature or the level 1 waypoint and 5 ranks in Craft (alchemy).
Edgewalker 6
Clinging Shadows (Dark)
Embraced Duality (Dark, Light)
Lightfoot (Light)
Midnight Creeper (Dark) - Requires Spring Attack feat
Radiant Mote (Light)
Edgewalker 8
Bask in the Glow (Light)
Blinding Radiance (Light)
Erupting Mote (Light) - Requires the level 6 Radiant Mote waypoint.
Extinguish the Spark (Dark)
Me and My Shadow (Dark)
Residuum (Dark or Light) - Requires the Toxin Manufacturer waypoint.
Tenebrous Tango (Dark)
~~//~~ Edgewalker Greater Waypoints by minimum level required ~~//~~
Edgewalker 5
Cumulative Exposure (Dark, Light)
Effulgence (Light) - Requires 3 light waypoints.
Harmony in Motion (Dark, Light)
Ichor of the Sun's Heart (Light)
Ichor of Indiscriminate Oblivion (Dark)
Lights in the Darkness (Light)
Shadowstep (Dark) - Requires Improved Feint feat.
Shadow Swipe (Dark) - Requires 2 waypoints that use your shadow.
Study the Edge (Dark, Light)
Sunrise and Sunset (Dark, Light) - Requires 2 dark waypoints and 2 light waypoints.
Tag Team (Dark) - Requires 1 teamwork feat.
Tipped with Sunset (Dark, Light) - Requires the level 2 Tipped With Midnight and Tipped With the Noon waypoints.
Umbral Swarm (Dark)
Where All Things Intersect (Dark, Light)
Edgewalker 10
Cry of the Whippoorwill (Dark, Light) - Requires one dark & light greater waypoint.
Deepening Darkness (Dark) - Requires one dark greater waypoint.
Greater Insubstantial Toxin (Dark, Light) - Requires the level 1 Insubstantial Toxin waypoint, the toxin manufacturer waypoint and either the Ichor of Indiscriminate Oblivion greater waypoint or the Ichor of the Sun's Heart greater waypoint.
Growing Brilliance (Light) - Requires 1 light greater waypoint.
Perfect Harmony (Dark, Light) - Requires the level 1 Study the Illuminant waypoint and Study the Illusive waypoint, and the Study the edge greater waypoint.
Rage Against the Light (Dark)
Shield of Noon (Light) - Requires 1 light greater waypoint.
Sight of the Overstimulated (Light) - Requires 1 light greater waypoint.
Twilight Step (Dark, Light) - Requires 8 ranks in Perception and in Stealth.
Edgewalker 15
Army of Darkness (Dark) - Requires one dark greater waypoint.
Attenuated Reflection (Light) - Requires 2 light greater waypoints.
Ichor of Twilight (Dark, Greater, Light) - Requires 1 dark greater waypoint and 1 light greater waypoint.
Edgewalker 20
A New Tomorrow (Light) - Requires 2 light greater waypoints.
All is One (Dark, Light) - Requires 7 dark waypoints and 7 light waypoints.
Drag to Oblivion (Dark) - Requires 2 dark greater waypoints.
Ecnelis |
Had a question regarding the Edgewalker Feat "Extra Waypoint" and "Thousand Points of Light". I'm fairly certain this is the case, but does having extra waypoints allow you to get additional Greater Waypoints, or is it limited to only the regular waypoints.
Also when using Thousand Points of Light, am I limited to only throwing one orb as a move action, or am I able to throw two or more when throwing them at a creature? I'm not sure how this would be a useful ability if you can only throw one per turn as a level 20 Edgewalker, when having 10 orbs floating around your head with a -20 stealth penalty, unless used with Effulgence.
The Ragi |
Had a question regarding the Edgewalker Feat "Extra Waypoint" and "Thousand Points of Light". I'm fairly certain this is the case, but does having extra waypoints allow you to get additional Greater Waypoints, or is it limited to only the regular waypoints.
Ye know, I thought this would be an obvious one, since the feat mentions only waypoints, not greater waypoints, but I did a little research on how it's handled by similar classes and couldn't find anything definitive. The Rogue gets advanced talents after level 10, but there's no official ruling forbidding you to get an advanced talent using the extra rogue talent feat. And the few topics where it's discussed there's no consensus.
The wording is a bit different though - the rogue can choose and advanced talent instead of a regular one. The edgewalker can choose only a greater waypoint when he reaches level 5, not a standard one.
But, quoting from Ultimate Antipodism page 56:
"Like standard waypoints, greater waypoints are also broken into two subtypes, light and dark, and follow the rules for waypoint selection and shadow use as though they were any other waypoint."
It's obviously talking about having to balance the amount of light and dark waypoints, but a rules lawyer could make quite the case here. Looking forward to see IG's clarifications, heh.
Also when using Thousand Points of Light, am I limited to only throwing one orb as a move action, or am I able to throw two or more when throwing them at a creature? I'm not sure how this would be a useful ability if you can only throw one per turn as a level 20 Edgewalker, when having 10 orbs floating around your head with a -20 stealth penalty, unless used with Effulgence.
It's an extra attack per round, as a move action, for the measly cost of 2 points, always hitting for 20 points of damage on a ranged touch. You probably won't be able to use all 10 (unless you have WIS 30 - but that may be a thing at such a high level, no idea) If you aren't moving during your round, it's a nice freebie, and think of cool imagery you'll project with your glowing floating balls.
It's not amazing, but it's a level 2 waypoint...
Interjection Games |
Extra Waypoint is good for non-greater waypoints only.
With Thousand Points of Light, you get one throw per move action, so you can fairly readily throw two per round if you burn all your actions. If you really want to amp up the orb throwing, I'd try to find a way to latch your sneak attack damage onto those orbs or use the new Ultimate Antipodism feats to give yourself some orbs that can be thrown as a swift action.
Ecnelis |
Thanks for the heads up, it was a challenge deciding on which greater waypoints I'd be choosing, but I'll have a good idea on how well this character will work in 2 weeks (Playing as a 10 Edgewalker 3 Hungry Ghost Monk Duergar). I currently have Sunrise and Sunset and Ichor of Twilight as my Greater waypoints. I had thoughts of having Shadowstep, Effulgence, or Attenuated Reflection, but decided to go with Ichor of Twilight only because of both the victim becoming sensitive to light and the idea of 50% miss chance + Tenebrous Tango + Hide in Darkness.
I was wondering seeing as how the Edgewalker class is a 3rd party class if when using PCGen, or other character generating sites if there was a way to have the Edgewalker installed in character generating sites, and if not, what class I should use as a substitute with Monk when designing the character's stats, feats, etc. I tried using rogue as a substitute for Edgewalker, but considering how rogues get certain benefits that Edgewalkers would not such as rogue talents, skills points, feats, etc., I'm not sure if the current sheet I have is inaccurate or not.