Evil Midnight Lurker |
I'd allow it. Empyreal Lords are called out in the 'deities' category of the index, they grant spells, they have domains just like any other deity, and they've got obedience lists. I could see someone arguing against it on the grounds that they lack specific 'evangelist boons', 'exalted boons', and 'sentinel boons', but I'd just give all three the same list of boons.
I might argue against evangelist and sentinel, on the grounds that "exalted" boons are the default that anyone with the feat can take so the standard boons from Demonic or Celestial should be taken as "exalted"... but really I'd rather not.
Sean K Reynolds Designer, RPG Superstar Judge |
John Kretzer |
Ok, if I am reading this right, any deity who has an obedience can be taken for the three prestige classes in this book.
Deific Obedience seems to allow a character to take an Empyreal Lord's Obedience, just as if they had taken Celestial Obedience, and the three classes seem to allow a character to get the boons from the Empyreal Lord as well.
Can someone confirm/deny this? Can I really have an Arshea worshiping Evangelist/Exalted/Sentinel?
I don't think so as they already have the Mystery Cultist prc. Though I'll read it in more detail later.
Axial |
I'd like to know what prevents the Evangelist from being horribly overpowered. You can lose one level and then progress in your Aligned class and the Evangelist simultaneously, almost like Gestalt-classing. Personally, I don't see why anyone wouldn't be an Evangelist.
Paizo should address this soon.
Dylos |
Dylos wrote:I don't think so as they already have the Mystery Cultist prc. Though I'll read it in more detail later.Ok, if I am reading this right, any deity who has an obedience can be taken for the three prestige classes in this book.
Deific Obedience seems to allow a character to take an Empyreal Lord's Obedience, just as if they had taken Celestial Obedience, and the three classes seem to allow a character to get the boons from the Empyreal Lord as well.
Can someone confirm/deny this? Can I really have an Arshea worshiping Evangelist/Exalted/Sentinel?
And that is really the issue here. Mystery Cultist requires a higher level of entry, and these would get the obedience boons sooner. Additionally I find it hard to believe that anyone would choose mystery cultist over evangelist.
Dylos |
I'd like to know what prevents the Evangelist from being horribly overpowered. You can lose one level and then progress in your Aligned class and the Evangelist simultaneously, almost like Gestalt-classing. Personally, I don't see why anyone wouldn't be an Evangelist.
Paizo should address this soon.
Granted that it is almost like gestalt, but imagine a character in the class without it, they gain very little other then their deific boon.
It is a d8 class with 3/4th BAB, that will turn away a lot of martial characters But oh god I want to see a zen archer of Eristil. It's only good save is reflex, and for the most part without aligned class no one would ever consider the class.
Dylos |
Still... It looks like the first prestige class that isn't terrible for summoner.
One of the gods even give a summoner's eidolon a free evolution, and it's nice that a summoner can finally multiclass and keep his eidolon.
Also I want to note that due to the nature of Aligned class, Evangelist is very nice for Monks and Warpriests, because they would override the class BAB.
Ross Byers RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 |
I'd like to know what prevents the Evangelist from being horribly overpowered. You can lose one level and then progress in your Aligned class and the Evangelist simultaneously, almost like Gestalt-classing. Personally, I don't see why anyone wouldn't be an Evangelist.
Paizo should address this soon.
Losing a level for wizards, witches, and clerics slows you down a bit. Losing a level for sorcerers and oracles is painful.
Dylos |
Axial wrote:Losing a level for wizards, witches, and clerics slows you down a bit. Losing a level for sorcerers and oracles is painful.I'd like to know what prevents the Evangelist from being horribly overpowered. You can lose one level and then progress in your Aligned class and the Evangelist simultaneously, almost like Gestalt-classing. Personally, I don't see why anyone wouldn't be an Evangelist.
Paizo should address this soon.
Painful yes, but there are cases that I would consider it. For example, an Oracle of Pharasma can get another revelation for free from the tier 3 boon, and that revelation can be from bones even if bones is not their mystery.
Dylos |
BTW, here is what you gain over 10 levels other then 9 levels in your aligned class and the deific obedience boon as an Evangelist:
2 additional class skills
+2 dodge bonus to ac that is lost anytime you lose your dex bonus to ac
2 bonus languages
+4 on skills without ranks
and Spiritual form, which gives telepathy 100ft, +4 to one stat (untyped), and either wings, gills, or a natural attack, the spiritual form is useable in 1-minute increments for a total of minutes per day equal to character level.
Dylos |
So is it just subscribers who are getting their PDFs now or people who preordered? I've noticed its subscribers who've been letting us in on book details but I was wondering if I'd get the pdf early (according to the site, my hardcover's already shipped).
Preorders don't get PDFs, only subscribers do.
Ross Byers RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 |
Draco Bahamut wrote:The book has so much mechanic content that they could call it Ultimate Faith.For what it's worth, if they had called it Ultimate Faith I would be disappointed by the lack of a new base class, as Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic both had at least one new class.
Ultimate Equipment didn't.
Matrix Dragon |
Ross Byers wrote:Painful yes, but there are cases that I would consider it. For example, an Oracle of Pharasma can get another revelation for free from the tier 3 boon, and that revelation can be from bones even if bones is not their mystery.Axial wrote:Losing a level for wizards, witches, and clerics slows you down a bit. Losing a level for sorcerers and oracles is painful.I'd like to know what prevents the Evangelist from being horribly overpowered. You can lose one level and then progress in your Aligned class and the Evangelist simultaneously, almost like Gestalt-classing. Personally, I don't see why anyone wouldn't be an Evangelist.
Paizo should address this soon.
I haven't seen this prestige class yet, but I do have to point out that there is a simmilar one already for certain sorcerers: Dragon Disciple. And not all Draconic Sorcerers dip into that class, because the casting power loss IS pretty painful.
Ross Byers RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 |
Ross Byers wrote:Painful yes, but there are cases that I would consider it. For example, an Oracle of Pharasma can get another revelation for free from the tier 3 boon, and that revelation can be from bones even if bones is not their mystery.Axial wrote:Losing a level for wizards, witches, and clerics slows you down a bit. Losing a level for sorcerers and oracles is painful.I'd like to know what prevents the Evangelist from being horribly overpowered. You can lose one level and then progress in your Aligned class and the Evangelist simultaneously, almost like Gestalt-classing. Personally, I don't see why anyone wouldn't be an Evangelist.
Paizo should address this soon.
Emphasis mine.
I realize you are not Axial, and my point wasn't that it was worthless: 'I would consider it a trade in some cases' is probably a good place for a PrC to be. I was arguing with the 'why wouldn't I do this?'
And I don't have my PDF yet, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Maybe it is overpowered.
Ross Byers RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...wait wait wait Gorum was a participant in the sealing of Rovagug?! Okay, that's either an error in the text, an error in the myth, or proof that Gorum's a lot older than his worshipers give him credit for.
I take a more mutable approach to the history of Gods, and we've noted that Varg (the Orc deity) and Gorum have certain major similarities. What if Gorum is the name humans gave to Varg after cultural contact with the Orcs? That preserves the timeline and means Varg was present at the sealing of Rovagug.
atheral |
Evangelist is definitely powerful, but it has a few other trade offs as you have to use the evangelist BAB (which is a 3/4), HD (d8), saves (poor Fort, avg ref, poor will), and skills (this one is actually pretty good at 6 +int)
So a bit of a down step if your coming into it from a martial class, except in skills, you lose that one level so you can't get your capstone, of course not that many games ever run that high. Some of the obediences are a bit onerous or at least difficult if you are a wandering adventurer.
Very flavor heavy though, that would be the main reason I wouldn't take it unless I was playing a particularity zealous member of a faith.
Mark Moreland Developer |
zergtitan |
zergtitan wrote:Are you a subscriber? Can you download it after its shipped? THIS IS IMPORTANT!!IT HAS SHIPPED!
Download initiated...
I subscribed only for this book considering the price difference between Hardcopy and PDF. But yes, when you are a subscriber you pay only for the Hardcopy and when it ships the PDF is immediately placed in your downloads.
Normally I buy the PDF's due to price and lack of shelving space. (certain hardcovers excluded)
Dylos |
Dylos wrote:Ross Byers wrote:Painful yes, but there are cases that I would consider it. For example, an Oracle of Pharasma can get another revelation for free from the tier 3 boon, and that revelation can be from bones even if bones is not their mystery.Axial wrote:Losing a level for wizards, witches, and clerics slows you down a bit. Losing a level for sorcerers and oracles is painful.I'd like to know what prevents the Evangelist from being horribly overpowered. You can lose one level and then progress in your Aligned class and the Evangelist simultaneously, almost like Gestalt-classing. Personally, I don't see why anyone wouldn't be an Evangelist.
Paizo should address this soon.
Emphasis mine.
I realize you are not Axial, and my point wasn't that it was worthless: 'I would consider it a trade in some cases' is probably a good place for a PrC to be. I was arguing with the 'why wouldn't I do this?'
And I don't have my PDF yet, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Maybe it is overpowered.
Certainly not overpowered for arcane spellcasters, but really powerful for warpriest and monk, since they would override the BAB except for the first level. Also since class doesn't specify base class for aligned class it is also nice for early entry prestige classes, or depending on how your Gm lets it work with mystic theurge or arcane trickster.
Voadam |
Then there's the appendix, which has deity entries (including name, alignment, title, areas of concern, domains, subdomains, favored weapon, symbol, sacred animal, and sacred colors) for nearly all of the deities and demigods that are out. The ones (at least from a cursory lookover) not on it are the dead ones, the Tian Xia deities, the sorta-but-not-totally-retconned ones like Tiamat and the not-a-deity ancestor spirits / totem animals, and the ones only named in bestiaries / tangential mention (like the Psychopomp Ushers, Kyton Demagogues, Vudrani deities, etc).
All right, so what has gone on with Tiamat? What is different from her entry in Spells and Magic?
Is she not listed at all? Only listed in reference to Apsu and Dahak? Does she have her own entry as a minor goddess of the setting?
Dylos |
Lord Gadigan wrote:Then there's the appendix, which has deity entries (including name, alignment, title, areas of concern, domains, subdomains, favored weapon, symbol, sacred animal, and sacred colors) for nearly all of the deities and demigods that are out. The ones (at least from a cursory lookover) not on it are the dead ones, the Tian Xia deities, the sorta-but-not-totally-retconned ones like Tiamat and the not-a-deity ancestor spirits / totem animals, and the ones only named in bestiaries / tangential mention (like the Psychopomp Ushers, Kyton Demagogues, Vudrani deities, etc).All right, so what has gone on with Tiamat? What is different from her entry in Spells and Magic?
Is she not listed at all? Only listed in reference to Apsu and Dahak? Does she have her own entry as a minor goddess of the setting?
Only mentioned in Apsu and Dahak.
Lord Gadigan |
Apsu gets-
A Feat (Divine Barrier -> Channel energy to protect allies from energy damage), two Traits, a neck-slot magic item, a paragraph of info on the first 'Monster Deities' page, and an entry in the appendix.
Dahak gets-
A Feat (Hunter of Dahak -> Increases favored enemy bonus by 2 against metallic dragons), two Traits, a neck-slot magic item, a paragraph of info on the first 'Monster Deities' page, and an entry in the appendix.
John Kretzer |
BTW, here is what you gain over 10 levels other then 9 levels in your aligned class and the deific obedience boon as an Evangelist:
2 additional class skills
+2 dodge bonus to ac that is lost anytime you lose your dex bonus to ac
2 bonus languages
+4 on skills without ranks
and Spiritual form, which gives telepathy 100ft, +4 to one stat (untyped), and either wings, gills, or a natural attack, the spiritual form is useable in 1-minute increments for a total of minutes per day equal to character level.
At the cost of a dead feat for serveral levels and you loose all of that if you don't perform your obedience for the day. Including those gained from Align Class ability.