Spell Trigger & Craft Wondrous Items question

Is it possible for a wizard to create a wondrous item (brooch, belt, whatever, etc.) with 50 charges and a spell trigger instead of use-activated, continuous or command word?

For example, a 3rd level wizard with craft wondrous item makes the following items.

1) Brooch of shield spell (any first level spell cast as if first level)
50 charges
spell level 1 x caster level 1 x 750 GB (page 550, table 15-29 core rule book)
base price: 750 GB
construction cost: 375 GB

For example, a 3rd level wizard with craft wondrous item makes the following items.

1) Brooch of shield spell (any first level spell cast as if first level)
50 charges
spell level 1 x caster level 1 x 750 GB (page 550, table 15-29 core rule book)
base price: 750 GB
construction cost: 375 GB

For a slotless, handless wand of shield, I would price it at least double.

Magic Item Prices: "An item that does not take up one of the spaces on a body costs double."

If it took up, say, the headband slot, I would drop the price back down, as that's a significant tradeoff for not wanting to deal with wand juggling.

For a slotless, handless wand of shield, I would price it at least double.

Magic Item Prices: "An item that does not take up one of the spaces on a body costs double."

If it took up, say, the headband slot, I would drop the price back down, as that's a significant tradeoff for not wanting to deal with wand juggling.

I was thinking it would take a slot. A brooch would take the neck slot. If it were a belt of mage armor, it would take the belt slot. My question is, is it in keeping with the rules? Can wondrous items have 50 chargers and spell trigger as opposed to use-activated and continuous as most wondrous items seem to be?

In other words, is it violating the rules in some way, to make a wondrous items in this fashion?

If the GM allows it, you can do anything you want.

However, if you wanted to follow the rules, you'd use Craft Wand to make your brooch, and it wouldn't take up a slot. It would just be an oddly shaped wand that you wear instead of holding in the hand. Which is fine if you're wanting to cast shield on yourself, but wouldn't be easily usable on someone else. In this case, you'd just charge normal price for a wand.

Is it possible for a wizard to create a wondrous item (brooch, belt, whatever, etc.) with 50 charges and a spell trigger instead of use-activated, continuous or command word?

For example, a 3rd level wizard with craft wondrous item makes the following items.

1) Brooch of shield spell (any first level spell cast as if first level)
50 charges
spell level 1 x caster level 1 x 750 GB (page 550, table 15-29 core rule book)
base price: 750 GB
construction cost: 375 GB

I'd be very leery of allowing this, as it basically makes the Craft Wand feat useless if you can just make a wondrous item that does the same thing. Craft Wondrous Item already has a lot going for it; allowing it to duplicate other item creation feats makes it too powerful IMO. I also wouldn't allow metamagic gloves or vests of deflection for the same reason.

Now, if the character already had both Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Wand, and wanted to make the brooch, I'd be on board with that.

If the GM allows it, you can do anything you want.

However, if you wanted to follow the rules, you'd use Craft Wand to make your brooch, and it wouldn't take up a slot. It would just be an oddly shaped wand that you wear instead of holding in the hand. Which is fine if you're wanting to cast shield on yourself, but wouldn't be easily usable on someone else. In this case, you'd just charge normal price for a wand.

I apologize if I'm being dense, but I don't understand why it would be an oddly shaped wand, instead of a brooch, a belt, or any other item on my person. Craft wondrous item is available at level 3, craft wand is only available at level 5.

On page 553 of the core rule book, under craft wondrous items, it says to use table 15-29 (550) to determine cost. Under spell trigger items they use an example of a wand, bur if wondrous items use the same table, they why couldn't they also be spell trigger items with 50 charges? Page 496 says they (wondrous items) are usually use-activated or command word, but usually means that sometimes they are not.

What I'm getting at is what's a 3rd level wizard with craft wondrous items to do? Most of the specific wondrous items are beyond his ability to make, so it would seem it was intended for them to make 50 use items from his own low-level spells.

Thanks for replying. I really appreciate it.

I'd be very leery of allowing this, as it basically makes the Craft Wand feat useless if you can just make a wondrous item that does the same thing. Craft Wondrous Item already has a lot going for it; allowing it to duplicate other item creation feats makes it too powerful IMO. I also wouldn't allow metamagic gloves or vests of deflection for the same reason.

Now, if the character already had both Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Wand, and wanted to make the brooch, I'd be on board with that.

So this is all GM discretion then? I do see your point about the powerfulness of the item. Does it make a difference that I was envisioning it only to work on the self. Incidentally, the character in question is actually 5th level and does have both craft wands and wondrous items. But I was looking to clarify the rules, so used a lower level example. I was also trying to avoid the , "just make a wand" answer.

I find it hard to believe this hasn't come up more, but I searched for craft wondrous item posts and didn't find any question similar to mine. So I guess most 3rd level wizards aren't taking craft wondrous items.

mdt wrote:

If the GM allows it, you can do anything you want.

However, if you wanted to follow the rules, you'd use Craft Wand to make your brooch, and it wouldn't take up a slot. It would just be an oddly shaped wand that you wear instead of holding in the hand. Which is fine if you're wanting to cast shield on yourself, but wouldn't be easily usable on someone else. In this case, you'd just charge normal price for a wand.

I apologize if I'm being dense, but I don't understand why it would be an oddly shaped wand, instead of a brooch, a belt, or any other item on my person. Craft wondrous item is available at level 3, craft wand is only available at level 5.

You answered your own question. You are letting CWI replace CW, but the two feats are just that, two different feats. And CW is 5th level.

On page 553 of the core rule book, under craft wondrous items, it says to use table 15-29 (550) to determine cost. Under spell trigger items they use an example of a wand, bur if wondrous items use the same table, they why couldn't they also be spell trigger items with 50 charges? Page 496 says they (wondrous items) are usually use-activated or command word, but usually means that sometimes they are not.

There are only a couple of spell trigger items (you can look them up if you like), they are wands and scrolls, each of which requires a specific feat to make, and those feats are not CWI.

What I'm getting at is what's a 3rd level wizard with craft wondrous items to do? Most of the specific wondrous items are beyond his ability to make, so it would seem it was intended for them to make 50 use items from his own low-level spells.

Thanks for replying. I really appreciate it.

He makes wondrous items, not wands, because you have to be 5th level to make those. Or he takes Scribe Scroll and makes scrolls instead of wands. Or he makes a Cloak of Resistance, or Bracers of Armor +1, or any other wondrous item. That is what CWI is for, not for making wands that aren't wands. If you want to make wands, wait until 5th level and take Craft Wands.

There are only a couple of spell trigger items (you can look them up if you like), they are wands and scrolls

Nitpick: Scrolls are Spell Completion, not Spell Trigger.

mdt wrote:

There are only a couple of spell trigger items (you can look them up if you like), they are wands and scrolls

Nitpick: Scrolls are Spell Completion, not Spell Trigger.

True, but they are much more similar than Wands and Wondrous Items. And they still require two different feats.

Thanks for the reply. What about making a wondrous item with a shield or mage armor effect, that's usable only 3 times a day? How would you determine that cost?

Is it possible for a wizard to create a wondrous item (brooch, belt, whatever, etc.) with 50 charges and a spell trigger instead of use-activated, continuous or command word?

For example, a 3rd level wizard with craft wondrous item makes the following items.

1) Brooch of shield spell (any first level spell cast as if first level)
50 charges
spell level 1 x caster level 1 x 750 GB (page 550, table 15-29 core rule book)
base price: 750 GB
construction cost: 375 GB

At the very least if I allowed this I would require both the Craft Wondrous Item feat AND the Craft Wand feat and charge double the wand price. But quite frankly, I'd be hard to persuade to allow it at all.

The item would be treated as a wand with a different shape. and it would have to take up the neck/amulet slot in order to activate. If it sounds like an item worse than the original... I intend it to be so. There are reasons why certain items come in a standardised form.. it's generally the most advantageous one for the function and the easiest to make.

So this is all GM discretion then? I do see your point about the powerfulness of the item. Does it make a difference that I was envisioning it only to work on the self. Incidentally, the character in question is actually 5th level and does have both craft wands and wondrous items. But I was looking to clarify the rules, so used a lower level example. I was also trying to avoid the , "just make a wand" answer.

I find it hard to believe this hasn't come up more, but I searched for craft wondrous item posts and didn't find any question similar to mine. So I guess most 3rd level wizards aren't taking craft wondrous items.

Any item not explicitly described in the rules is GM discretion. You can run a perfectly fine game without ever allowing custom magic items, which a charged spell trigger brooch is. Those magic item design rules are at best guidelines, and need a lot of GM oversight or else some really bad abuses can happen.

One common error you might be making: The caster level on magic items is not a prerequisite. A 3rd level wizard can create a pearl of power, even though he doesn't meet the caster level.

The only true caster level restrictions I know of are on wands, scrolls, staves, and potions, where you must be able to cast the appropriate spell (and thus be high enough level to cast it), and weapons and armor, which have a restriction on +s based on creator level.

Thanks for the reply. What about making a wondrous item with a shield or mage armor effect, that's usable only 3 times a day? How would you determine that cost?

Armor bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared x 1,000 gp

4*4*1000=16000
/2 (For charges)
8000.

Also, according to the table spell trigger items are priced as wands no matter their form. Check with your dm to see if he'd allow this though, since it does make craft wand useless. I'd probably let you do it if you had both feats.

What I'm getting at is what's a 3rd level wizard with craft wondrous items to do?

Intentionally not much. You're a beginner in wizardcraft so it stands to reason that the items you can make are going to be a small subset.

Thanks for the reply. What about making a wondrous item with a shield or mage armor effect, that's usable only 3 times a day? How would you determine that cost?

Armor bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared x 1,000 gp

4*4*1000=16000
/2 (For charges)
8000.

I agree with something like this, assuming the mage armor was caster level 1 and you get an hour at a time. By caster level 3 you may as well just have bracers +4 (since you'd be getting 9 hours a day).

The shield item I'd be inclined to make more expensive, since by default it could be used by non-casters and that's a red flag with personal range spells. I'd say 32000 for an at-will shield item, priced as a non-armor AC bonus of +4, then /2 for 3/day to give 16000 or so. Restrict it to only users who can cast it and I'd probably drop that to 7500. Yes, it's a lot more expensive than the wand. I tend to err on the side of overcosting custom items. My philosophy is that you should almost always be better off going for the standard version.

Michael Pace 573 wrote:

Thanks for the reply. What about making a wondrous item with a shield or mage armor effect, that's usable only 3 times a day? How would you determine that cost?

wombatkidd wrote:

Armor bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared x 1,000 gp

4*4*1000=16000
/2 (For charges)
8000.

I agree with something like this, assuming the mage armor was caster level 1 and you get an hour at a time. By caster level 3 you may as well just have bracers +4 (since you'd be getting 9 hours a day).

The shield item I'd be inclined to make more expensive, since by default it could be used by non-casters and that's a red flag with personal range spells. I'd say 32000 for an at-will shield item, priced as a non-armor AC bonus of +4, then /2 for 3/day to give 16000 or so. Restrict it to only users who can cast it and I'd probably drop that to 7500. Yes, it's a lot more expensive than the wand. I tend to err on the side of overcosting custom items. My philosophy is that you should almost always be better off going for the standard version.

Ya it's for 1 hour interval charges, just like the spell. I used the armor table even though it's enhancement by default because an item like this with the spell effect rules would be

Spell level x caster level x 1,800 gp
1*1*1800/2=900
I think we can all agree that that ain't right. ;)

Is it possible for a wizard to create a wondrous item (brooch, belt, whatever, etc.) with 50 charges and a spell trigger instead of use-activated, continuous or command word?

For example, a 3rd level wizard with craft wondrous item makes the following items.

1) Brooch of shield spell (any first level spell cast as if first level)
50 charges
spell level 1 x caster level 1 x 750 GB (page 550, table 15-29 core rule book)
base price: 750 GB
construction cost: 375 GB

Seems like you want a wand of Shield that is always accessible while keeping your hand free, at the expense of taking up a magic item slot. So, it could save you 1-2 move actions at the start of each combat. Seems useful.

I'd go with the others and say it requires Craft Wand as well as Craft Wondrous Item. I'd probably increase the cost by 50% to 100%. It should be priced such that it puts you on the fence to create it. If it is a no brainer either way, then the price is too high or too low.

Having a wand I can wear in a slot I'm not using for the cost of a normal wand is a no brainer to buy.

Michael Pace 573 wrote:

Is it possible for a wizard to create a wondrous item (brooch, belt, whatever, etc.) with 50 charges and a spell trigger instead of use-activated, continuous or command word?

For example, a 3rd level wizard with craft wondrous item makes the following items.

1) Brooch of shield spell (any first level spell cast as if first level)
50 charges
spell level 1 x caster level 1 x 750 GB (page 550, table 15-29 core rule book)
base price: 750 GB
construction cost: 375 GB

Seems like you want a wand of Shield that is always accessible while keeping your hand free, at the expense of taking up a magic item slot. So, it could save you 1-2 move actions at the start of each combat. Seems useful.

I'd go with the others and say it requires Craft Wand as well as Craft Wondrous Item. I'd probably increase the cost by 50% to 100%. It should be priced such that it puts you on the fence to create it. If it is a no brainer either way, then the price is too high or too low.

Having a wand I can wear in a slot I'm not using for the cost of a normal wand is a no brainer to buy.

If he's buying it I agree. If he's making it though? I mean, I did make him take two feats... I think that augments the cost enough for me. :P

In other words, ask your DM. :D

If he's buying it I agree. If he's making it though? I mean, I did make him take two feats... I think that augments the cost enough for me. :P

In other words, ask your DM. :D

Making him take those two feats isn't much of a cost since those are two feats that item crafting wizards generally take any way.

If he's buying it I agree. If he's making it though? I mean, I did make him take two feats... I think that augments the cost enough for me. :P

In other words, ask your DM. :D

If he only used these feats to create this item, then I'd feel differently. :-).

A wearable wand doesn't normally exist, so crafting it yourself is the best (only?) option. Doubling the cost means he could either buy a wand of shield for 750, take one feat and create a CL2 wand of shield for 750, or take two feats and create a brooch of shield for 750.

That feels about right.

Just because the rules somewhat say you can do this, it ultimately up to the GM. These rules are not rules per say, but more like guide lines. By the rules I can make a sword that has true strike at all times. Using the use activated rules it would only cost 2000 gp to have a constant +20 vs a +1 for 2000 gp.

wombatkidd wrote:

If he's buying it I agree. If he's making it though? I mean, I did make him take two feats... I think that augments the cost enough for me. :P

In other words, ask your DM. :D

If he only used these feats to create this item, then I'd feel differently. :-).

A wearable wand doesn't normally exist, so crafting it yourself is the best (only?) option. Doubling the cost means he could either buy a wand of shield for 750, take one feat and create a CL2 wand of shield for 750, or take two feats and create a brooch of shield for 750.

That feels about right.

It may be true to some extent. But there are several different options to have wand inside an item and it function without having to be held.

And the brooch of shielding
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/brooc h-of-shielding
is a way to look at pricing such an item. It uses shield as its spell, has 101charges and costs 1500gp. it does not grant ac but instead grants the protection to magic missle. since its double normal charges it is double price. So if it had 50charges it would be 750gp or same as a wand, however you dont get ac. I would conclude that this will allow you to make wonderous items with 50charges that are same as wands, except that bonuses to ac or stats have to be calculated using the ac/stat part of magic item creation. But any other spells will add at no extra costs.

Not to knock your use of the item creation rules, but basically any good GM would disallow these items. They're either way too expensive or way too cheap for the intended effect. You're trying to do something that wasn't really intended.

Your real issue is trying to figure out what to do with Craft Wondrous Item at CL 3. By the way, you *do* know the caster level isn't a prerequisite to make items, right? You can make an item with a CL 20 if you want. The only items that are restricted by your CL are items that say something like "creator's caster level must be at least three times the cloak's bonus".

The first thing a group needs almost immediately are Cloaks of Resistance. The next items you should make are amulets of natural armor for your melee *if you can*. Sometimes you don't have access to barkskin. . . but if anyone in your party can cast it, you have access to it. Next, go for the stat boosters favoring casters.

And the brooch of shielding

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/brooc h-of-shielding
is a way to look at pricing such an item. It uses shield as its spell, has 101charges and costs 1500gp. it does not grant ac but instead grants the protection to magic missle. since its double normal charges it is double price. So if it had 50charges it would be 750gp or same as a wand, however you dont get ac. I would conclude that this will allow you to make wonderous items with 50charges that are same as wands, except that bonuses to ac or stats have to be calculated using the ac/stat part of magic item creation. But any other spells will add at no extra costs.

Brooch of Shielding is actually quite a different beast. It's a continuous use item that effectively protects you from ~30 magic missile strikes. A shield spell makes you immune to magic missiles and grants +4 to your AC for 1 minute.

I wouldn't link amount of MM damage prevented in a brooch of shielding to the number of charges in a wand of shield and infer that's why the price is 1500. It's apples to oranges.

William Brewer wrote:

And the brooch of shielding

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/brooc h-of-shielding
is a way to look at pricing such an item. It uses shield as its spell, has 101charges and costs 1500gp. it does not grant ac but instead grants the protection to magic missle. since its double normal charges it is double price. So if it had 50charges it would be 750gp or same as a wand, however you dont get ac. I would conclude that this will allow you to make wonderous items with 50charges that are same as wands, except that bonuses to ac or stats have to be calculated using the ac/stat part of magic item creation. But any other spells will add at no extra costs.

Brooch of Shielding is actually quite a different beast. It's a continuous use item that effectively protects you from ~30 magic missile strikes. A shield spell makes you immune to magic missiles and grants +4 to your AC for 1 minute.

I wouldn't link amount of MM damage prevented in a brooch of shielding to the number of charges in a wand of shield and infer that's why the price is 1500. It's apples to oranges.

But its similar enough that it warrants into part of the discussion. It has charges and is a level 1 spell, yes it is continous but it can be viewed as am example of using wonderous item creation and a level 1 spell in a way to create a charge item much like a wand.Yes it is not 100% but the book tells you to look for similar items and use them as a basis to go about creating new items.

Dont forget this part of the chart
Charged (50 charges) 1/2 unlimited use base price Ring of the ram
a ring is not a wand but giving an item 50charges is same as wand

This while not perfect is a good basis and should suffice to argue that a charged item is able to be done. Brooch of Shielding It also is a great way to look at cost as well because the formula it uses here is the break down. (spell level 1 x caster level 1 x 2000 gp for being continous)x 2 because its a minutes/level spell is 4000gp now because the spell is not 100% (no ac)can you now take into account reduction in base price of 25% (which looks like middle ground for price reduction options 10% or 30% that was chosen) so your price is 4000gp -25% = 3000gp then take 1/2 off because it is charged giving final price of item at 1500GP. which it appears is how the creators of book came up with the price. Now for most spells you would not need to reduce the price by 25% because the spell would be working as normal.

SO why not use this as an argument? I mean you have option of Command Word charged item. For level 1 spell that would be (1x1x1800) divided by 1/2 for 50 charges. which is cheaper than wand and be used by anyone. Or you can allow player to make item using spell completion so (1x1x750) and it is usable only by those with spell unless a UMD check.

SO why not use this as an argument?

I think I'm just bristling about calling the hp absorption capacity of a brooch of shielding "charges", so that's why I'm not a fan of using that as a model. Maybe you could think of it as an item that loses 2-5 charges per MM attack, but that feels like a stretch. And if they are "charges", they are quite different functionally than the charges in a wand.

I think a better model is something like Gem of Brightness

William Brewer wrote:

SO why not use this as an argument?

I think I'm just bristling about calling the hp absorption capacity of a brooch of shielding "charges", so that's why I'm not a fan of using that as a model. Maybe you could think of it as an item that loses 2-5 charges per MM attack, but that feels like a stretch.

I think a better model is something like Gem of Brightness

Yeah I was just trying to show that charged wonderous items exist. I know alot were trying to appear to argue that nothing like a wand exists in wonderous item category.. Gem of Brightness is another idea.. since its command work daylight spell...

Is it possible for a wizard to create a wondrous item (brooch, belt, whatever, etc.) with 50 charges and a spell trigger instead of use-activated, continuous or command word?

For example, a 3rd level wizard with craft wondrous item makes the following items.

1) Brooch of shield spell (any first level spell cast as if first level)
50 charges
spell level 1 x caster level 1 x 750 GB (page 550, table 15-29 core rule book)
base price: 750 GB
construction cost: 375 GB

to answer your question YES it is possable to craft that with craft wonderous item it is ultimatly up to dm but! CWI is used for any item that is not CAA CW CS or any other crafting feat. a brooch would fall under cwi as it offers no ac (CAA) its not a wand (CW) its not a staff (CS) you can make wonderous items with charges. you can make swords with charges. if you wanted and had the gold you could make a sword witch on contact with an enemy casted fireball at 10d6. i dont know any dm that would allow that but its completly up to dm on what you can and cannot make. i dont see why they wouldnt allow a brooch of shielding spell. once all casts are done it would become useless. a wand is a wand. no different shape. i would ask your DM if he would allow it. if you wanted you could make a bead of shield with charges. activation is banging it on your head. its how you craft and word its activation. if your dm says no then no you cant. i have made armor that apon hit cast entangle and had freedom of movement put on it. (i was a druid) and in combat that would be my escape so i could cast spells and not worry about being hit. its just what the dm would allow you to make is whatever you can make. no one said that CAA has to be just what is in the book. as a dm myself i like to see what people can come up with. come on. as an example

CONSTRUCTION
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, resistance; Cost 100 gp

that is an awesome use of CWI and it takes a 0 level spell and makes it do something completely different then what the spell actually does witch is +1 enhancment to saves. if a dm doesnt want people to make unique items then there not my kind of dm :)