Cthulhusquatch |
Joana wrote:That's my main gripe, too, it implies something that is clearly wrong and negative. Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are NOT shunned in Golarion, or viewed as lesser races. They are generally accepted and liked, as I pointed out above. It also implies that most Half-Elves and Half-Orcs only come from a scandalous mating between a Human and an Elf or Orc, which is probably not the case that often anymore.Shisumo wrote:The problem there, though, is that Vic's right - we've already had a Paizo book with "Bastards" in the title, and no one seemed to flinch then.I'm not at all offended by the word, just by the inaccuracy. The title implies that humans and elves never marry each other and have children -- or, for that matter, half-elves don't marry half-elves or half-orcs, half-orcs. As if Golarion has a blanket law forbidding the solemnization of interracial marriage (or preventing half-humans from marrying at all). The word bastard in its non-pejorative sense refers to birth resulting from an unsanctioned relationship, not mixed blood.
Irregular =\= Scadalous
The mixing of Elf or Orc and Human sure ain't regular.
So, it implies exactly what I would think it implies.
Also, Half-Orcs are not generally accepted. I've lost count how many books I have read about towns where accepting them makes the town or area unusual. If I'm not mistaken one of those was Land of the Linnorm Kings.
Half-Elves are not shunned, but they tend to not really belong either.
Alexander Augunas Contributor |
Heh.
This is like watching the sparks from the Advanced Race Guide fly again.
I still can't believe that people claims that retail stores would confuse that book for Nazi propaganda or whatever the concern was based on title alone. Give it two weeks and the next cool thing to complain about will roll around and everyone will forget that this book was announced until they're begging for their subscriptions to ship. :-P
Feros |
Gorbacz wrote:"that nice bastard in the grocery store sold me some great apples!". Wait, that would be Canadians...I wished we talked like that. Might spice up conversation a bit. Maybe I'll bring it up at the next "all Canadians know each other" meeting. ;)
Good idea! I'll bring the poutine!
Axial |
brock, no the other one... wrote:To be fair, it's used often in faux mediaeval literature to denote illegitimate - I'd be astonished if it hasn't appeared in Game of Thrones, for instance. Of course it still carries a pejorative tone, hence the corruption of the original word into one of abuse.GeraintElberion wrote:If this was a UK forum then 'bastard' would be censored in the same way that 't+$!', 's!$&' and 'wanker' would be.I've been turning it over in my head all evening, and the only place where I've heard the word used to represent a 'mixture' would be in 'bastardise', and even then it implies corruption and pollution.
Oh, does it ever! :D
brock, no the other one... |
Besides, no one against it is offering an alternative. I would guess even more people would complain about halfbreeds, halfbloods, or other terms. I did offer Swirlies of Golarion, but my guess is that's a no go.
So, does anyone have a better name?
Halfbreeds or halfbloods would have been fine. As would dualborn or mongrels.
I really wish people in this world would grow up and stop complaining about everything. I swear, we live in a world of 10 year olds on a playground.
You are also insulting anyone that has had kids or relatives born out of wedlock by treating it as if it is a negative.
Um, no - you have this exactly backwards. It is because the word is now used purely as a (pretty bad) derogatory term regardless of 'legitamacy' that I commented. It's similar to calling a book 'B@$~~es of Golarion'.
Edit: Seriously? The boards filter canines of the feminine gender but not the word 'bastard'? That honestly surprised me. Separated by a common language indeed :)
Now, Vic has (a way back) popped in to say that the implied slur on the reputation of dual-heritage people in Golarion is intentional. So I'm fine with this now. If it's intentional by design, rather than poor word choice for the international market, fair enough.
Besides, I believe it's been printed in hard copy in the catalogue. So beyond Vic's metaphorical boat sailing with the Bastards of Erebus, a boat has literally sailed!
Unless Paizo get their catalogue printing done domestically.
Matthew Morris RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 |
strayshift |
My Northern European sensibilities are not offended by the word, but then we Scot's have the first recorded use of the 'f' and 'c' words in literature (William Dunbar's A Brash of Wowing - http://mediaevalfollies.tumblr.com/post/9749728877/william-dunbar-a-brash-o f-wowing - read the glossary at the end!) and a fair few modern Scot's writers also use them freely.
I think the offence lies with Victorian snobbery and hypocrisy so I for one am more than happy to reclaim the words as worthy of a place in everyday language of us modern-day 'Ynglis' speakers.
Cthulhusquatch |
Mead Gregorisson wrote:Then I look forward to your presenting the documentation.
That isn't the original meaning.
So I have to buy you a dictionary? Or look it up for you? Ever heard of expanding your own knowledge?
The word came from the proto-Germanic word for 'low born'. It was originally for irregular, dubious and inferior births. it has also been posted several times in this thread. Hel, if you check a thesaurus you'll find crossblood and related words are synonyms. The marriage-related definition was just one of several.
Unless you think pre-Christian folk cared about marriage in the way people did when Christianity became big. If that is the case, your ignorance isn't my fault.
There are plenty of people in this thread that understood this usage had nothing to do with marriage. So it clearly isn't a problem with the word, only peoples' knowledge of the word.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
This isn't the first time we've used the word "Bastards" in a title on the cover of a product we printed. "Bastards of Erebus" was the very first Pathfinder RPG Adventure Path title, and the world didn't explode at that point when we released it, so I wouldn't worry too much about this one causing many problems.
Owen K. C. Stephens Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games |
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I'd imagine being one of the key minds at Super Genius Games keeps Owen fully occupied, but you never know.
Not to mention writing material for other people's Kickstarters as stretch goals, but I do like to keep up the occasional Paizo freelance project. Not that I have any reason to believe this one is going to have any freelancers on it, since it's written by "Paizo Staff."
But yeah, anything is possible. :)
Matthew Morris RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 |
coyote6 |
Mead Gregorisson wrote:Halfbreeds or halfbloods would have been fine. As would dualborn or mongrels.So, does anyone have a better name?
I'm pretty sure "halfbreeds" and "mongrels" would be way more objectionable than "bastards" here in the US. When applied to people, those terms have a history of bigotry behind 'em, at least to me.
For me, the title reminded me of Scott Lynch's Gentlemen Bastards books. I'm still hoping for some scoundrelry in the book.
lynnfredricks |
Talk about a can of worms unnecessarily opened...
If you think its not offensive, try offering up as a title over on one or more of the multi-racial forums on Facebook.
So..what about half-orcs and half-elves you say? Those descriptions refer to mixes of two different and distinct species - not races - and how a fantasy culture may refer to them - not the blending of two types of orc or two types of elf or two types of human.
Paizo has plenty of folks who can do better than this and come up with something really unique, like 'Twixers ("between worlds") or something else that could fit within the campaign setting.
For the adventure, the word bastard works just fine as a description of "sorta bad dudes".
Cthulhusquatch |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Shorter Mead.
"What? You expect me to back up what I'm saying without proof?"
Thank you for conceding the point.
Owen I'd be happy to see your name on it.
I don't see you posting proof for your side either. There has been nothing definate on either side.
Though I do apologize to everyone for my irritation. I am sick of how everyone, no matter what it is in this world, has to start whining.
The name of this book is perfectly fine, and spot on. But no... whining must commence.
It's like that Hitler teapot billboard incident. The teapot looked nothing like Hitler, but people decided to b#+!! anyway. We live in a world of children staying up past thir bedtimes.
Vic Wertz Chief Technical Officer |
Not that I have any reason to believe this one is going to have any freelancers on it, since it's written by "Paizo Staff."
"Paizo Staff" is a generic author placeholder for books that haven't been contracted at announcement time; freelancers *often* wind up writing or cowriting such books. (Prior to that, nearly all books were announced with "James Jacobs" as the author...)
Cthulhusquatch |
Here is a link to supporting evidence.
Wikis are not good links to support either side.
Neither is etymology.com which was posted earlier. Though that supported that the word descended from the proto-Germanic word for 'low born'.
Many people don't get that language evolved and even if 'bastard' evolved to have to do with marriage, among other things... before it did it was not a word dealing with that. Early Germanics didn't care if a child was born of marriage, or out of marriage. A child was a child... So instead their word had nothing to do with marriage. That came later when the church took over.
The bottom line is the word is perfectly acceptable. People just like to complain about things.
Jessica Price Project Manager |
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I've never found, when someone says, "The thing you said/did hurt or offended me," that it's particularly useful or makes the world a better place to say, "You're just oversensitive," or "Stop whining," without finding out why it bothers them.
Given that we all have very different life experiences, none of us are in a very good position to decide for others whether they have a "right" to be offended by something, and the same word or symbol may have very different meanings for different people, especially when a product is being sold internationally.
I'm glad that the people who are upset by the use of the term "Bastard" in one of our titles have taken the time to let us know and to explain why. It's helpful in continuing to try to make better and better products.
Thanks to those who have commented -- I think a lot of you have made very fair points about how this usage differs from "The Bastards of Erebus," and we'll definitely take it into consideration in future naming.
Set |
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"Paizo Staff" is a generic author placeholder for books that haven't been contracted at announcement time; freelancers *often* wind up writing or cowriting such books. (Prior to that, nearly all books were announced with "James Jacobs" as the author...)
He lies to conceal the horrible truth that 'Paizo Staff' is a hive-mind operating out of the basement of Paizo HQ (the real one in the Hollow Earth, not the mockup in Washington state), formed from the spirits of the interns fed to the cave-raptors, and interpreted from their squawks and cries by the Cave Raptor Whisperer.
Jessica Price Project Manager |
11 people marked this as a favorite. |
Vic Wertz wrote:"Paizo Staff" is a generic author placeholder for books that haven't been contracted at announcement time; freelancers *often* wind up writing or cowriting such books. (Prior to that, nearly all books were announced with "James Jacobs" as the author...)He lies to conceal the horrible truth that 'Paizo Staff' is a hive-mind operating out of the basement of Paizo HQ (the real one in the Hollow Earth, not the mockup in Washington state), formed from the spirits of the interns fed to the cave-raptors, and interpreted from their squawks and cries by the Cave Raptor Whisperer.
Send out the drones for this one--
I mean, what a charming joke you made there! Hee hee hee!
John Kretzer |
Well I guess Pazio will just have to come out with The Loved and Socialy Accepted Children of Happily Interracial Married Couples of Golarion book sometime in the future to cover the happy innterracial kids.
Me when I play a half-elf or half-orc I kinda want to play a outcast...so 'bastard' kinda fits with the what I want of my characters.
strayshift |
Wee semantic point, would 'Bastard RACES of Golarion' be less offensive?
Because then it specifies the usage of the word in terms of its 'Mixture of Species' context (which is an appropriate usage of the word within the dictionary) or is this something that still carries some social offense?
You see this illustrates the point also about social offense, someone, somewhere will almost always be offended (in the case of D&D often with a conservative religious agenda). Ultimately you must decide for yourself Paizo (a commercial organisation) where you draw this line but I suspect those who cannot see past their emotional reaction to the word will be in the minority. Also you risk making your products bland and sterile, which would lose you customers too.
Personally I say: "F*ck 'em" but them I'm probably too prone to use the old Anglo-Saxon...
Gorbacz |
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Gorbacz wrote:And all the nipples will be covered. But the cover will feature Amiri slashing a Whore Queen in half with blood and guts splattering all over.Don't worry though. They'll make sure not to say bastard. Wouldn't want to offend your sensibilities ;)
They'll say "katana" instead. Because as we all know, katana=bastard.
Zaister |
And I assume Aasimar are also included in this book?
AFAIK, these 'hybrids' don't need to have parents of different races,
they can both be Human but carry the bloodline enough to create a half-Elf/Aasimar/whatever...?
There's already Blood of Angels for aasimars.
Patrick Renie Developer |
And I assume Aasimar are also included in this book?
AFAIK, these 'hybrids' don't need to have parents of different races,
they can both be Human but carry the bloodline enough to create a half-Elf/Aasimar/whatever...?
The goal of this book is to represent half-elves and half-orcs as well as any other characters that might be considered "bastards" (using a truncated form of the second definition from this dictionary: "Something that is of irregular... or dubious origin"). This is not limited solely to characters of half-human, half-other origins such as half-elves, aasimars, or changelings—the aim is to serve characters of particular backgrounds as well as races. Thus, the fully dwarven child who discovers his talent for magic in a magic-fearing dwarven society would be just as well served by this book as the aasimar born into the demon-worshiping human society.
Without spoiling anything, I think readers will be quite pleased with the amount, scope, and treatment of content in this book.
Luthorne |
Quandary wrote:And I assume Aasimar are also included in this book?
AFAIK, these 'hybrids' don't need to have parents of different races,
they can both be Human but carry the bloodline enough to create a half-Elf/Aasimar/whatever...?The goal of this book is to represent half-elves and half-orcs as well as any other characters that might be considered "bastards" (using a truncated form of the second definition from this dictionary: "Something that is of irregular... or dubious origin"). This is not limited solely to characters of half-human, half-other origins such as half-elves, aasimars, or changelings—the aim is to serve characters of particular backgrounds as well as races. Thus, the fully dwarven child who discovers his talent for magic in a magic-fearing dwarven society would be just as well served by this book as the aasimar born into the demon-worshiping human society.
** spoiler omitted **
Without spoiling anything, I think readers will be quite pleased with the amount, scope, and treatment of content in this book.
Hmm. I am now considerably more intrigued as to the contents of this book than when I thought it was just a half-elf/half-orc book. Well played.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
John Kretzer |
Quandary wrote:And I assume Aasimar are also included in this book?
AFAIK, these 'hybrids' don't need to have parents of different races,
they can both be Human but carry the bloodline enough to create a half-Elf/Aasimar/whatever...?The goal of this book is to represent half-elves and half-orcs as well as any other characters that might be considered "bastards" (using a truncated form of the second definition from this dictionary: "Something that is of irregular... or dubious origin"). This is not limited solely to characters of half-human, half-other origins such as half-elves, aasimars, or changelings—the aim is to serve characters of particular backgrounds as well as races. Thus, the fully dwarven child who discovers his talent for magic in a magic-fearing dwarven society would be just as well served by this book as the aasimar born into the demon-worshiping human society.
** spoiler omitted **
Without spoiling anything, I think readers will be quite pleased with the amount, scope, and treatment of content in this book.
So I am curious...why go with bastards and not outcasts?
Odraude |
Actually I agree with John. Why not Exiles of Golarion or Pariahs of Golarion? I feel that actually fits more than Bastards does. I mean, we have two schools of thought about the bastard (one thinks it's villains, the other half-breeds) and what you described doesn't quite fit with either of them. I say use Bastards of Golarion for a villain book and use something that means "outcast". I personally like Pariahs of Golarion, but I may be a bit biased :)
Odraude |
Well, I second that, and going on what Patrick wrote,
I think the product description is just misleading, since it does focus solely on 'race' and 'blood heritage'.
What Patrick described sounds like a cool concept, but nobody would expect that sort of thing based on the description as-is.
I agree. I'm already confused. First I thought this was about villains, then I'm told it's about half-breeds, now I'm told it's about misfits. I'm so confused! ;)
Thirding Misfits of Golarion. It rolls of the tongue. And I don't think we need another Blood of the Night issue.
Hill Giant |
Thirding Misfits of Golarion. It rolls of the tongue.
This book has nothing about flumphs.