Lou Diamond |
James, have you and Mike Brock been able to confab with each other on what parts of the Mythic rules will be usable in PFS? I like all of Pazio Products and buy as many as my budget allows but am sometimes get exasperated that parts of products are not usable in PFS. This has gotten much better since late season 3 and season 4. It seems to me there is greater interaction between the Pazio staff to get as much content into PFS as Possible. Looking forward to World Wound and mythic content in PFS.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
James, have you and Mike Brock been able to confab with each other on what parts of the Mythic rules will be usable in PFS? I like all of Pazio Products and buy as many as my budget allows but am sometimes get exasperated that parts of products are not usable in PFS. This has gotten much better since late season 3 and season 4. It seems to me there is greater interaction between the Pazio staff to get as much content into PFS as Possible. Looking forward to World Wound and mythic content in PFS.
That's not somethign I'd confab with Mike about. If anyone, he'd talk to Erik about doing it or not. I believe at this point the plan is to not use Mythic in Pathfinder Society... but I very well might be wrong. I actually don't keep 100% up to date on everything that's upcoming... or even everything that's current... with Pathfinder Society.
I will say this. We do produce some products knowing full well that they aren't going to be part of Pathfinder Society organized play. The game is bigger than PFS.
Kajehase |
Nicolas Logue Contributor |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Heh. Mark outted me. Back in the game!
Truth be told though, I'll be surprised if many of the filthy words I wrote for a certain Pit are fit for print. I think I might have gone a little...too...far.
I'll keep the original draft right alongside the original Hook Mountain...in the deep, dark occipital lobe of my hard drive, where no one should ever look.
Odraude |
tradyblix wrote:All I care about is Arazni. I'm obsessed with that character. I love whoever did her art, it's great.Carolina Eade, if I remember correctly.
I always found her work to be a bit exaggerated anatomy-wise (which I usually do not like), but very stylized and beautiful. I absolutely love it! If there was ever someone making a Middle-Eastern/Indian/Southeast Asian styled setting, they need to call her to do the artwork because it is very colorful and reminiscent of that style.
Nicolas Logue Contributor |
Nicolas Logue wrote:Truth be told though, I'll be surprised if many of the filthy words I wrote for a certain Pit are fit for print. I think I might have gone a little...too...far.Too far in what way, exactly?
Just a little dark is all. I do get lost in the dark recesses sometimes, but its okay! I like it there! :-)
Mikaze |
Kajehase wrote:I always found her work to be a bit exaggerated anatomy-wise (which I usually do not like), but very stylized and beautiful. I absolutely love it! If there was ever someone making a Middle-Eastern/Indian/Southeast Asian styled setting, they need to call her to do the artwork because it is very colorful and reminiscent of that style.tradyblix wrote:All I care about is Arazni. I'm obsessed with that character. I love whoever did her art, it's great.Carolina Eade, if I remember correctly.
If Jalmeray/Vudra get a book, she's definitely gotta be the primary artist.
Shadar Aman |
Alleran wrote:Just a little dark is all. I do get lost in the dark recesses sometimes, but its okay! I like it there! :-)Nicolas Logue wrote:Truth be told though, I'll be surprised if many of the filthy words I wrote for a certain Pit are fit for print. I think I might have gone a little...too...far.Too far in what way, exactly?
And some of us like when you go there. My players still cringe and shudder when they remember Hook Mountain. I would love to read the original version some day.... :P
UllarWarlord Contributor |
Will Tar-Baphon be a lich with mythic tiers, or a mythic-template lich?
/me puts nerd glasses on
*snort* Well, let us see. We have Inner Sea Magic, which says Tar-Baphon is at LEAST a level 20 necromancer. This makes him CR 19 at least.
It's a safe bet that he has PC equipment, so CR 20.
Lich template adds 2 to the CR, for CR 22.
This leaves us with 4 CR to go - but if we applied the mythic lich template, we would be CR 30 at least!
As such, I'm gonna say he's a lich necromancer 20 / archmage 8.
Yay deduction!
FlySkyHigh |
Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:Will Tar-Baphon be a lich with mythic tiers, or a mythic-template lich?/me puts nerd glasses on
*snort* Well, let us see. We have Inner Sea Magic, which says Tar-Baphon is at LEAST a level 20 necromancer. This makes him CR 19 at least.
It's a safe bet that he has PC equipment, so CR 20.
Lich template adds 2 to the CR, for CR 22.
This leaves us with 4 CR to go - but if we applied the mythic lich template, we would be CR 30 at least!
As such, I'm gonna say he's a lich necromancer 20 / archmage 8.
Yay deduction!
Actually, since mythic ranks on monsters only add about 1/2 cr per rank, and max rank being 10, if he was a CR 22 effective base, he'd become a CR 27 creature with the mythic lich template.
I'd wager you're probably right though. Otherwise he wouldn't be 30. But maybe they'll leave him at 27. Who knows.
EDIT: Strike that. I forgot that Tiers apply the same principle. I think he'll be just a straight up mythic lich, because even with tiers they do only count as 1/2. So even if he gets 10 full tiers, he'll be CR 27.
Alexander Augunas Contributor |
I could be mistaken, but I believe James Jacobs recently mentioned that he prefers to create "unique" mythic monsters rather than generic ones. As a matter of fact, he mentioned making a succubus a member of the trickster path, and considering this line is in his domain I'd suspect that Tar-Baphon is probably an archmage rather than a mythic lich.
Besides, the rules never technically say that you even need class levels to venture down a Mythic Path. Many abilities assume you do, but there's no reason that you couldn't have a succubus trickster 4, as an example.
Kthulhu |
I could be mistaken, but I believe James Jacobs recently mentioned that he prefers to create "unique" mythic monsters rather than generic ones.
Which is amusing to me, given that the entire bestiary section of Mythic Adventures consisted of Mythic [insert generic pre-existing monster here].
Tirisfal |
Alexander Augunas wrote:I could be mistaken, but I believe James Jacobs recently mentioned that he prefers to create "unique" mythic monsters rather than generic ones.Which is amusing to me, given that the entire bestiary section of Mythic Adventures consisted of Mythic [insert generic pre-existing monster here].
James isn't the final word on that stuff, so while he may personally prefer unique mythic creatures, the rest of the development team had their reasons for boosting older creatures (which I have heard have turned out pretty rad).
Unruly |
Man, I don't usually go for splatbooks and the like but I'm seriously tempted to pick this thing up when funds allow, right alongside Mythic Origins. Outside of a short PbP I haven't played Pathfinder in months, and then comes Mythic and I got all hot and bothered over it.
Why, Paizo? Why must you tempt me so?
Alexander Augunas Contributor |
Lord Snow |
Alexander Augunas wrote:I could be mistaken, but I believe James Jacobs recently mentioned that he prefers to create "unique" mythic monsters rather than generic ones.Which is amusing to me, given that the entire bestiary section of Mythic Adventures consisted of Mythic [insert generic pre-existing monster here].
As you know, the hardcover rulebook line is setting neutral as a principle. So it's a little bit hard to create specific monsters that don't belong anywhere.
In bestiary 4, we will get 12 unique mythic creatures that are enough mainstream to fit into most campaigns - like Cthulhu and the Kaiju. So yeah, most mythic creatures we are going to get will be specific rather than generic.
Izar Talon |
This book looks like it's gonna be flat-out rad.
I agree with a few others that info on the Star Stone is itself almost worth getting the book, but the rest is also definitely worth it. I'm REALLY hoping that one of the Mythic Sources will be tied/connected to the Dark Tapestry, as I am a Lovecraft junkie, and I'm using the Dark Tapestry as the source of Mythic power for the PCs in my game and would like to see how the minds at Paizo would handle it, and quite possibly alter my own plans if their ideas are better than mine (however, based on previous evidence of how well my own ideas mesh with what Paizo writes, I am willing to bet that any Mythic Dark Tapestry ideas from Paizo will cleave quite closely to what I had come up with myself, just thought out a lot more fully.
The beginning plot of my campaign is that the PCs were all victims of repeated Mi-Go abduction and experimentation throughout their lives, and their Ascension was the result of being the culmination of a millennia-long, interstellar genetic engineering, controlled breeding, and surgical experiment... but the experiment succeeded several generations earlier than the Mi-Go had predicted (cf. Dune, Kwisatz Haderach.) The Mi-Go had been experimenting on various creatures to empower them with the energies of the Dark Tapestry (implanting extra quasi-magical biomechanical protomatter organs, eldritch quasi-fungal rhizomes in muscle tissue, Evocation Capacitor brain implants, etc.), and when they finally succeeded they planned to use those techniques to raise themselves up to the level of the Great Old Ones, and eventually even the Outer Gods themselves.
But the Mi-Go in charge of the PCs segment of the experiment lost control when the PCs were set free by a Commando Team of Flumphs before it could dissect them, and they killed it in a battle that took place in an alien laboratory on the Dark Side of the Moon (something that sounded suitably Mythic to me; Commando Team of Flumphs!) and now they're loose and fully Ascended Mythic Beings, but empowered by the energies of the Dark Tapestry, and I want to see what Paizo has to say about what having the Dark Tapestry as a Source of Mythic Power would do to someone. They are a Neutral Good Magus with a Black Blade, a Lawful Good Monk, and a Chaotic Neutral Abyssal Blooded Sorcerer, and I'd like to know what effect Paizo thinks that the energies of the Dark Tapestry would have on them.
Especially once I read the Apotheosis Story Feat in Quests & Campaigns, and one of the possible Quests to complete the Feat was about how members of the Old Cults believe that if you travel far enough into the Dark Tapestry you could tap into the power of the Great Old Ones and ascend to godhood. That REALLY caught my attention because it was so close to what I had already been doing in my campaign, and I really hope they follow up on that thought in Mythic Realms.
Kthulhu |
Kthulhu wrote:Alexander Augunas wrote:I could be mistaken, but I believe James Jacobs recently mentioned that he prefers to create "unique" mythic monsters rather than generic ones.Which is amusing to me, given that the entire bestiary section of Mythic Adventures consisted of Mythic [insert generic pre-existing monster here].As you know, the hardcover rulebook line is setting neutral as a principle. So it's a little bit hard to create specific monsters that don't belong anywhere.
In bestiary 4, we will get 12 unique mythic creatures that are enough mainstream to fit into most campaigns - like Cthulhu and the Kaiju. So yeah, most mythic creatures we are going to get will be specific rather than generic.
A monster doesn't have to be unique to be "mythic" powerful.
Although the poor decision to make some of the most powerful entities in the multiverse (demon lords, arch devils, etc) at just barely above the CR rating a PC can achieve does constrain things.
DM_aka_Dudemeister |
Lord Snow wrote:Kthulhu wrote:Alexander Augunas wrote:I could be mistaken, but I believe James Jacobs recently mentioned that he prefers to create "unique" mythic monsters rather than generic ones.Which is amusing to me, given that the entire bestiary section of Mythic Adventures consisted of Mythic [insert generic pre-existing monster here].As you know, the hardcover rulebook line is setting neutral as a principle. So it's a little bit hard to create specific monsters that don't belong anywhere.
In bestiary 4, we will get 12 unique mythic creatures that are enough mainstream to fit into most campaigns - like Cthulhu and the Kaiju. So yeah, most mythic creatures we are going to get will be specific rather than generic.
A monster doesn't have to be unique to be "mythic" powerful.
Although the poor decision to make some of the most powerful entities in the multiverse (demon lords, arch devils, etc) at just barely above the CR rating a PC can achieve does constrain things.
The CR of the Demon Lord does not reflect the CR of the battle to kill said Demon Lord.
CR 29
Fighting Demon Lord in its home plane +1
Demon Lord is decked out with PC wealth +1
Infinite numbers of demonic minions (+1 to +4 depending on what you throw into the battle)
According to the CR guidelines a group of APL 25 PCs against CR 32-35 encounter is considered EPIC and PCs WILL die. :D
Alexander Augunas Contributor |
Although the poor decision to make some of the most powerful entities in the multiverse (demon lords, arch devils, etc) at just barely above the CR rating a PC can achieve does constrain things.
Do you have Mythic Adventures? If so, check out the "Monster Statistics By CR" table. Here's a quick sneak peak.
HP: 560
AC: 43
High Attack: 36
Low Attack: 28
High Average Damage: 180
Low Average Damage: 135
Primary Ability DC: 30
Secondary Ability DC: 24
Good Save: 26
Poor Save: 21
HP: 760
AC: 48
High Attack: 41
Low Attack: 33
High Average Damage: 255
Low Average Damage: 185
Primary Ability DC: 35
Secondary Ability DC: 29
Good Save: 31
Poor Save: 26
Having built a few CR 25 Mythic PCs, I can attest that the CR 25 values are fairly accurate, although in most of my tests the PCs have had higher damage outputs (an average floating around 200) but lower HP and AC. If we take these averages for what they are, however, here are some cool facts to note.
1) The Average CR 30 creature only misses the Average CR 25 creature (such as a fully stocked PC) on a roll of a natural 1.
2) The Average CR 30 creature cannot fail a saving throw against a primary ability used by the Average CR 25 opponent when the ability targets the CR 30 creature's good ability score.
3) In contrast to #3, the Average CR 30 creature only fails a saving throw used by the Average CR 25 creature on a 3 or worse (15% chance) if the ability targets its poor saving throw.
4) A CR 25 creature has, on average, 200 more HP than the Average CR 25 creature. Most players do not attain this average Hit Point value, however. Players are usually more offensively focused, so the gap is often closer to 400 to 500 HP.
Definitely some things in mind before using phrases like, "barely above the CR" when talking about CR 25 vs. CR 30.
Benchak the Nightstalker RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8 |
Lord Snow wrote:Kthulhu wrote:Alexander Augunas wrote:I could be mistaken, but I believe James Jacobs recently mentioned that he prefers to create "unique" mythic monsters rather than generic ones.Which is amusing to me, given that the entire bestiary section of Mythic Adventures consisted of Mythic [insert generic pre-existing monster here].As you know, the hardcover rulebook line is setting neutral as a principle. So it's a little bit hard to create specific monsters that don't belong anywhere.
In bestiary 4, we will get 12 unique mythic creatures that are enough mainstream to fit into most campaigns - like Cthulhu and the Kaiju. So yeah, most mythic creatures we are going to get will be specific rather than generic.
A monster doesn't have to be unique to be "mythic" powerful.
Although the poor decision to make some of the most powerful entities in the multiverse (demon lords, arch devils, etc) at just barely above the CR rating a PC can achieve does constrain things.
Those aren't the most powerful entities in the multiverse. Those are the most powerful entities in the mutliverse that the PCs can actually kill.
Kthulhu |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Those aren't the most powerful entities in the multiverse. Those are the most powerful entities in the mutliverse that the PCs can actually kill.
Just being a full god doesn't seem to make you a multiversal power. The four horsemen are for more multiversal powers than, say, Iomedae....who isn't even worshiped in Tian Xia.
Personally, I think PCs trying to take on a demigod-level enemy should have to do it like at the end of Savage Tide...by allying with other demigods, etc. I don't think a 4-6 man adventuring party should be even remotely capable of taking them on unaided.
DM_aka_Dudemeister |
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:Those aren't the most powerful entities in the multiverse. Those are the most powerful entities in the mutliverse that the PCs can actually kill.Just being a full god doesn't seem to make you a multiversal power. The four horsemen are for more multiversal powers than, say, Iomedae....who isn't even worshiped in Tian Xia.
Personally, I think PCs trying to take on a demigod-level enemy should have to do it like at the end of Savage Tide...by allying with other demigods, etc. I don't think a 4-6 man adventuring party should be even remotely capable of taking them on unaided.
I think Gods should be CR 26-30, and killable by CR 25 PCs.
Paizo has chosen to calibrate their setting a certain way in official books. GMs everywhere are free to change those assumptions in their own games.
Lord Snow |
Lord Snow wrote:Kthulhu wrote:Alexander Augunas wrote:I could be mistaken, but I believe James Jacobs recently mentioned that he prefers to create "unique" mythic monsters rather than generic ones.Which is amusing to me, given that the entire bestiary section of Mythic Adventures consisted of Mythic [insert generic pre-existing monster here].As you know, the hardcover rulebook line is setting neutral as a principle. So it's a little bit hard to create specific monsters that don't belong anywhere.
In bestiary 4, we will get 12 unique mythic creatures that are enough mainstream to fit into most campaigns - like Cthulhu and the Kaiju. So yeah, most mythic creatures we are going to get will be specific rather than generic.
1)A monster doesn't have to be unique to be "mythic" powerful.
2)Although the poor decision to make some of the most powerful entities in the multiverse (demon lords, arch devils, etc) at just barely above the CR rating a PC can achieve does constrain things.
1) I... don't really get what you are saying, honestly. If I correctly understood what I quoted, you criticized that while Jacobs said that it's important to him that most mythic monsters be unique creatures, all mythic monsters in the mythic adventures book are mythic-X creatures. To which I replied, that Mythic Adventures is a setting neutral book and therefore creatures in it kinda have to be non specific. I don't understand how the part of your post that I marked as "1" answers that.
2) I disagree. By the time PCs are 20th level, they are among the very few most powerful living things in their world. Hack, in the multiverse. People who achieve 20th level can easily become legends, and if not so then at least be extremely influential in their time of living. Take most BBEGs of APs, for example - most of them are weaker than a 20th level PC, and some of them are examples of extremely powerful and important people.
Now, if PCs gain mythic tiers, that moves them into a different scale entirely. Combine 10 mythic tiers and 20 levels and you get something quite beyond what the normal scope of the game could represent so far. By the time PCs reach that power level they are immortal, can grant spells, band reality to their whims and generally achieve what I consider to be power approaching those of godhood.
To call such amazingly powerful heroes an "adventuring party" is doing them a major disservice - they are stuff of legends, shining examples of power beyond mortal reach. I believe 20th level PCs with 10 mythic tiers are adequate heroes to fight something like a demon lord.
Odraude |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I used to think that gods were unstattable, but admittedly, someone on these forums (I forget who) made me realize that I was looking at it through the scope of a monotheistic omnipotent god. As opposed to the pantheistic gods of Nordic, Greek, and other mythologies, which would plot against each other without the other knowing, and outright kill each other. Seeing it through that light, I can honestly say my view has changed and I'm okay with seeing gods statted up as CR 31+ creatures. Assuming there was a deific adventures coming out.
Evil Midnight Lurker |
4) A CR 25 creature has, on average, 200 more HP than the Average CR 25 creature. Most players do not attain this average Hit Point value, however. Players are usually more offensively focused, so the gap is often closer to 400 to 500 HP.
You may want to recalculate that in light of the retraining rules, permitting every PC to attain maximum possible HP with an investment in time and training.
Lord Snow |
I used to think that gods were unstattable, but admittedly, someone on these forums (I forget who) made me realize that I was looking at it through the scope of a monotheistic omnipotent god. As opposed to the pantheistic gods of Nordic, Greek, and other mythologies, which would plot against each other without the other knowing, and outright kill each other. Seeing it through that light, I can honestly say my view has changed and I'm okay with seeing gods statted up as CR 31+ creatures. Assuming there was a deific adventures coming out.
CR 31 is probably too weak for a god, isn't it? I mean, CR 31 and 30 are not all that different... I'd expect gods to revolve around the CR 35 mark.