FORM BLAZING SWORD! - Battlearmor in D&D?

I posted this in my thread about artificers, but I was worried that the non-Eberronites might avoid it. I'm not running Eberron, but I do have a player with an artificer.

The player wants to basically manufacture a battlesuit (aka, mini-mech). For whatever reason, I find this to be very cool and want to enable it. Any ideas on how to model such an ability?

My current thoughts are as follows. The character currently has a pulverizer sidekick (MMII, pre-errata). Once he gets up to around, say, 7th or 8th level, he will be able to covnert the pulverizer into a suit of armor that will increase his physical stats to those of the pulverizer, increase its sonic cone ability, and grant him immunity to critical hits and blindsense. He will only be able to do this x times per day based on character level. My thought is that it should be similar in power level to the druid's shapechange crossed with the barbarian's rage.

Interesting idea, Sebastian. If you have Player's Handbook II, the "Shapeshift" variant druid ability might help inspire you, and once a druid has that (or wild shape) and BAB +4 they also qualify for the Warshaper PrC (Complete Warrior), level 1 of which grants immunity to stunning and critical hits.

I would treat the suit of armor as a magic item taking up multiple body slots, but that can be enchanted with thematically interesting and appropriate abilities. I wouldn't charge much, if any, premium for including multiple effects in a single item as long as the abilities aren't game-breaking and are logically related. (IOW, I'd use something like the MIC pricing structure.)

If you're going for SF-style battle armor, it should probably provide a strength bonus, good armor, and perhaps some DR and ER. Additional features could include enhanced senses, weaponry, enhanced mobility (flight, digging, jumping, climbing), or perhaps bonuses to other characteristics.

You might consider the occasional breakdown roll (triggered by massive damage or electricity perhaps). That would give more of a steampunk flavor to the armor, which might not be what the player is looking for, of course.

Interesting concept. I like it. Here is how I would rule it...

Armor bonus -- the pulverizer has a +11 natural armor. We are now talking about an armor bonus instead. Looks to me like +3 Full Plate armor. I would also include the speed property to help him keep up. This makes it a total of a +4 bonus making the base cost 17,500 gp. The immunity to critical hits is basically a heavy fortification enhancement making the total plus now +9 and a total base cost of 82,500 gp. Already it is getting a bit expensive.

The sonic cone ability looks a lot to me like a 3rd level spell cast as a 1st level caster. Since the pulverizer can do this every round, I feel that this falls under the "use activated" category of cost making the base cost -- spell level x caster level x 2,000 = 3 x 1 x 2,000 = 6,000 for 1d8 points of damage usable every round. This could be modified to the damage output that the creator wants.

Blindsight is a 3rd level cleric spell. This would fall under the "continuous" effect and would be the same as "use activated" -- 3 x 5 x 2,000 = 30,000 gp.

Enhancements to physical attributes are simply bonus squared times 1,000 for base costs. Depends on how much he wants for increase his stats by.

Making the limit of "x times per day" is tricky to calculate as I don't know of a formula for that. I would make the overall cost 3/4 the base cost or maybe 1/2 the cost if you are feeling generous.

The sonic cone, increased stats, and blindsight will need to increase the cost by 1.5 since it is an additional ability.

So, as I see it...

Base cost of armor granting +11 armor bonus, heavy fortification, and additional movement -- 81,500 gp.

Say, 5d8 sonic cone usable 1/round for 30 foot cone -- 45,000 gp

Blindsight all the time -- 45,000 gp

Make Dex +2 and Str +4 -- 30,000 gp

This makes a total of 201,500 gp base cost. I might be convinced that being usable x times a day where x is the artificer level could reduce the cost in half for the enhancements making the base cost 101,500 gp, but I'm not sure how that would look -- is he carrying the armor when not in use?

Another idea would be to make it a continuous work in progress. Making the armor so that it is +10 armor bonus with light fortification and speed, with 2d8 sonic cone, with blindsight all the time and only a +2 Str bonus is a base cost of 86,500 gp. And then as he gets more materials and higher level, he could improve the armor paying a difference in the cost.

Keep in mind that out of pocket cost is half the base cost.

Hope that this helps.

That's awsome Moff. Even if it's not ultimately what I use, you've given a great baseline for comparison. The suit gives two additional abilities that are not in your calculations: 40' movement and two slam attacks that deal (I believe) 1d6 each.

Now, that being said, I was thinking an item that did a polymorph type effect would be a better model. The character will be losing his regular character abilities in the process (e.g., spellcasting, wand and scroll use, etc.) And, the duration will be extremely limited (1 round per artificer level, usable once per day and gaining an additional use per day every 3 levels or so). I think the numbers you have above would make sense if the armor was on all the time, but it seems like there should be a significant discount.

One other factor regarding the discount is that it takes two character's actions out of the equation. I need to make sure that whatever the armor does, it is better than just him and the pulverizer taking separate actions. I feel like that's a significant cost given that actions are about the most precious currency in D&D.

This makes a total of 201,500 gp base cost. I might be convinced that being usable x times a day where x is the artificer level could reduce the cost in half for the enhancements making the base cost 101,500 gp, but I'm not sure how that would look -- is he carrying the armor when not in use?

When not in use, the armor is a pulverizer (see automotan in the MMII). They are CR 3 constructs.

From the description, I'm guessing that the armor will take time to put on (even if it's described as a polymorph-style effect). Don't forget that action cost in your pricing. It's not much of a cost when the duration is long, but on a 1 round/level effect, it's often really important.

Making something that will be better than two characters (even if one is a construct) seems like it will be very difficult to balance correctly. I'm not sure I'd try for something that is strictly better than the separate characters, but rather try for something that is sometimes better instead. Increasing attack bonus or damage, for instance, would be significantly better against some opponents than multiple actions with lower bonuses. Against other opponents, having more attacks might be the better choice. (I like my players to have interesting, and preferably non-obvious choices to make.)

For flavor, it would be easy enough to say that the artificer is spotting opportunities that the slower "thinking" construct is incapable of seeing.

That's awsome Moff. Even if it's not ultimately what I use, you've given a great baseline for comparison. The suit gives two additional abilities that are not in your calculations: 40' movement and two slam attacks that deal (I believe) 1d6 each.

I don't know that the 40' move is all that much better than having the speed quality -- especially if he can't run. I wouldn't have a price adjustment for that.

Also a slam attack is still a non-magical attack and is basically the equivalent of attaching a mace to each "hand". Again, not really a significant cost. The two-attacks a round is a bit different, however and I don't really know how I would price that out. Just kind of throwing out a number -- it feels like 5,000 to 10,000 additional gp for an additional attack with no penalties should be about right.

Now, that being said, I was thinking an item that did a polymorph type effect would be a better model. The character will be losing his regular character abilities in the process (e.g., spellcasting, wand and scroll use, etc.) And, the duration will be extremely limited (1 round per artificer level, usable once per day and gaining an additional use per day every 3 levels or so). I think the numbers you have above would make sense if the armor was on all the time, but it seems like there should be a significant discount.

It's kind of a toss up. Polymorph doesn't work with constructs (easy enough to ignore). It wouldn't keep the sonic blast or the blind sense. It would also only increase the physical stats to the creature's and not beyond. And even as a continuous ability the cost seems a bit cheap to me -- 4 x 7 x 2,000 = 56,000 base gp cost.

One other factor regarding the discount is that it takes two character's actions out of the equation. I need to make sure that whatever the armor does, it is better than just him and the pulverizer taking separate actions. I feel like that's a significant cost given that actions are about the most precious currency in D&D.

I understand what you are saying. According to the DMG, you can reduce the cost of a limited amount of times per day to -- base cost / (5 / times per day). If you allow him to do this 2 times per day (I would probably allow him to run it for 1 min/level) the new base cost would be 81,500 gp based on the above 201,500 total cost. I think that for what he is asking for, 81,500 gp is a good deal -- especially since it only really will cost him 41,500 gp for blindsight, immunity to criticals, improved sonic blast, etc.

Have you thought about who takes the damage it takes when the two are together?

From the description, I'm guessing that the armor will take time to put on (even if it's described as a polymorph-style effect). Don't forget that action cost in your pricing. It's not much of a cost when the duration is long, but on a 1 round/level effect, it's often really important.

Yup. I'm trying to figure out if it should be a standard action or a full round action for each of them to convert forms. If I make it standard, it's much easier to set up, given that the pulverizer is a melee combatant and the artificer is a ranged combatant and they aren't normally near each other.

Making something that will be better than two characters (even if one is a construct) seems like it will be very difficult to balance correctly. I'm not sure I'd try for something that is strictly better than the separate characters, but rather try for something that is sometimes better instead. Increasing attack bonus or damage, for instance, would be significantly better against some opponents than multiple actions with lower bonuses. Against other opponents, having more attacks might be the better choice. (I like my players to have interesting, and preferably non-obvious choices to make.)

That is a good point and creating those choices is definitely difficult. I guess when I say better, I don't mean strictly better, I mean better in melee than either is by itself. The comparison of multiple attacks is apt. A similar comparison would be two weapon fighting v. weapon and shield v. two handed weapon. The battlesuit should be the two handed weapon, the separate forms should be the two weapon fighting. So, the battlesuit should be better in melee than either of the two characters, but less flexible as well. Some of this is inherent in the melding: while the artificer gains immunity to critical hits, the construct loses immunity to mind effecting spells because the gestalt can be effected by those. Similarly, their ranged attack options dwindle.

Nonetheless, you raise a good point. I will take care not to give the battlesuit form good ranged attacks and good melee.

I don't know that the 40' move is all that much better than having the speed quality -- especially if he can't run. I wouldn't have a price adjustment for that.

I must've missed that. When did speed come into the calculations and what does it do? Is this the ability from mithral of speed which lets you do haste 10 rounds per day?

Have you thought about who takes the damage it takes when the two are together?

A little bit. I was thinking for each of play of having them add together their hp in gestalt form and the divide their hp 50-50 when they disassemble. The main benefit is ease of play.

I do like the idea of starting with lighter fortification and weaker armor and building up.

I must've missed that. When did speed come into the calculations and what does it do? Is this the ability from mithral of speed which lets you do haste 10 rounds per day?

My bad -- it is actually the quickness property that I was thinking of. It is found in the Expanded Psionics Handbook and all it does is increase the base speed by 5 feet. It is only a +1 enhancement. I wasn't sure how fast you wanted the person to be able to go. While movement is important, I didn't feel that it should be crippling in this case and felt that it should remain as a +1 bonus especially since the boots of striding and springing are only 5,500 gp base cost and we are talking about a similar ability.

The first thing I thought of was steam armor or warcaster armor from Iron Kingdoms. The steam armor increase the wearers size, hit points, str, and reach. The warcaster armor can increase your str, dex, fuel magic weapons, and create a force field around you can can take 40 points of damage. The steam armor runs on coal and water. The warcaster armor does to but the coal and water charge kind of a magic turbine to create charges that fuel the suits abilites some thing like 1 charge per round. Iron Kingdom's magic items from weapons to armor run on "magic batteries", and the batteries have 5 to 15 charges, and each +1 takes a charge per day so a suit of +2 armor would use to charges each day. When the batteries run out the armor is just MW armor until the batteries are recharged or changed. There is a class that revolves around these magic items and recharging them and making them. I could see the Art. from Ebberon being able to jump into this role. I'm not sure if this is what you were looking for, but hope it helps.

Fizz

Oh this is a very quick and dirty overview of Iron Kindoms magical items with 100s of little things left out and I do mean 100s.

Here's my more developed reply, inspired by the rules for the druid's alternate shapeshift ability (PH2), the symbiont rules (ECS), and various other factors. Is this any good to you?

Symbiotic Battle Armor (Su):
You can form a symbiont with your pulverizer companion. Because this is draining, it can only be used a limited number of times per day. At minimum level, the benefits gained are less effective because the artificer and pulverizer are learning how best to coordinate their actions.
Gained at: Artificer level 8.
Special: Gaining this ability has an ECL of +1, which comes in when the character gains his 8th artificer level. (Alternatively, if you allow the Reducing Level Adjustments variant- www.d20srd.org, make the ECL +2.)
Ability description: Beginning at 8th-level, your artificer may form symbiotic battle armor 3 times per day. This increases to 4/day at 10th-level, 5/day at 14th, and 6/day at 18th-level. Each time it is used, it lasts for 3 + Constitution modifier rounds (excluding time it takes to form and unform). The artificer can end the effect early if he wishes without penalty.
It takes a standard action (or full-round, as you decide Sebastian) for the pulverizer to become battle armor, or for the battle armor to return to a separate entity. Note that the pulverizer must be adjacent to the artificer to form battle armor.
When battle armor is formed, you cannot speak, and your limbs lack the precision required to wield a weapon (although you can make slam attacks as described below) or perform tasks requiring fine manipulation. You can't cast spells or activate magic items while wearing battle armor.

When "wearing" the battle armor, you are considered proficient (and armed) with the slam attacks. The slam attacks gain an enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls equal to 1/4 your artificer level, and are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

If you are knocked unconscious or slain when wearing battle armor, the pulverizer separates and may take its own actions.

Symbiont traits (slightly modified): When formed as battle armor, the pulverizer does not take any actions of itself, and is not treated as flat-footed unless its artificer is, and it is aware of any danger the artificer is aware of (and vice versa).
As it is highly visible, opponents can attack the battle armor itself instead of the artificer creature. This works the same way as attacking an object: The battle armor gains the benefit of the artificer’s Dexterity modifier to AC instead of its own, and gains any deflection bonus to AC the artificer has as well. Its own size modifier and natural armor bonus apply. Attacking the battle armor instead of its artificer provokes an attack of opportunity from the artificer.
Battle armor never takes damage from attacks directed at the artificer. Like a worn magic item, battle armor is usually unaffected by spells that damage the artificer, but if the artificer rolls a 1 on his saving throw, the battle armor is one of the “items” that can be affected by the spell (see Items Surviving after a Saving Throw, page 177 of the Player’s Handbook). Battle armor uses the artificer’s base saving throw bonuses if they are better than it’s own. (Sebastian, you’ll have to decide if you want the “Share Spells” feature of symbionts to apply as well; see page 299 of the ECS.)

Lesser Battle Armor (at artificer level 8)
Two primary slam attacks of 1d6 damage.
Gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and natural armor bonus increases by +6.
Sonic shriek (once per round as a standard action; 1d8 damage + potential stun; DC is replaced by 10 + half artificer level + Cha mod. Sonic damage increases by +1d8 every two levels after 8th, to 2d8 at 10th, 3d8 at 12th, etc.)
Blindsense 40 ft.
Gain light fortification.
Base land speed increases to 40 feet.
Unreliability: This still applies to some extent, but the improved control by the artificer’s improved mental control makes this less likely to happen. At 8th-level, when the artificer with battle armor attemps to act roll 1d20. On a result of 11 or better, he acts normally; otherwise he takes no action. At each level higher than 8th, the number required for success drops by 2, so that at 12th-level inaction only occurs on a 2 or less. A natural 1 should always result in inaction.

Greater Battle Armor (at artificer level 12)
As lesser battle armor, except:
Gain a +10 enhancement bonus to Strength, and natural armor bonus increases by +11 (instead of +6). Also gain immunity to critical hits (replaces light modification).

True Battle Armor (at artificer level 16)
If the artificer spends the necessary money to upgrade the pulverizer to 9 HD (+2,000 gp per HD, for +12,000 gp total) and large size (+20,000 gp, based on Shield Guardian cost), he may form True Battle Armor.
Abilities granted are as lesser battle armor, except:
Gain a +18 enhancement bonus to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, +4 enhancement bonus to Fortitude saves, and natural armor bonus increases by +14 (instead of +6).
You also gain Large size (slam attacks increase to base 1d8 damage)

I should have said “can’t imbue infusions” rather than “can’t cast spells”- oops.
Also, as an alterative to that written above, make it an extraordinary ability and lose the gaining of the magic enhancement bonus (because there’s no logical reason for it!), and allow the artificer to apply (or keep running) infusions applied to the slam attacks and/or allow him to enchant the slam attacks as magical weapons.

Fizz - thanks for the info re Iron Kingdoms. It's good to see how the problem has been tackled by others.

ericthecleric - nice. I really like how this uses the symbiote rules. I particularly like how they allow the armor itself to be attacked, which is not an effect that occurs when the armor is just a piece of equipment.

All in all, you guys rock, and I appreciate your input on this thread. I was so focused on the idea itself that I failed to appreciate the subtlties and balance issues that you all have raised. You've given me a lot to think about. Please continue to post any other ideas as they come to mind. I'm going to start hashing this out with the player. I'll post what we work out to get more feedback.

I'm a little late, but the Dragonmech book has some delicious stuff that synergizes well with ambitious artificers. Of particular use to you might be the critical hit chart for mechs. Since they can't take double damage, there is a chart where (relative to their remaining hp) they can receive unpleasant effects. Such as : Leg hydraulics damaged, -10 movement until repaired. Goes all the way to: Power Supply Critically Breached, mech detonates in 1d4 rounds for d10/hd in a 10'/hd radius.

Thanks Black Bard - What is dragonmech?

Thanks Black Bard - What is dragonmech?

Sebastian, look here.

Holy mother of Thor that is sweet.

Holy mother of Thor that is sweet.

AND it's made by White Wolf!

Sebastian wrote:

Holy mother of Thor that is sweet.

AND it's made by White Wolf!

That's not a plus in my book. Parts of the setting sound like epic White Wolf garbage (e.g., the moon is getting too close, dragons from the moon are attacking).

I actually meant to create a thread like this some months ago, but never remembered to do it. I love the thought of seeing gnomes doing stuff like this, but my thought is more along the lines of modeling it off a magical suite of full plate with a nice range of abilities.

Anyway, it sounds very much like a golem, and thus a limiting factor, which may be able to drive down the price, is to say that it can only operate safely for X number of rounds per day, after which the thing has a chance of malfunctioning. This could be simply crashing, as mentioned far above, or it could go as far as the thing becoming "berserk," like a golem, with the operator being carried off inside.

This probably won't be useful, but it just occured to me that if you decided to implement the berserk option in the model presented above, the artificer (or whoever was wearing the suite) could have to make a Will or even Fortitude save or be stricked by insanity even after separating from the pulverizer.

In any regards, it's a nice concept!

I plan in the Forgotten Realms campagin setting and actually did something close to this with my cleric/ techsmith character. I started with Adamantine Fullplate and started by adding a str enchantments that only cost gold not a slot on the armor enchantments bounses. I then added an ablilty that allowed me to be under the effect of spell immunity for five mins a day. I also added all of the the energy resistances 30 because they only cost gold. I finished it off by added Health, Healing, Freedom, and Proof against Enchantments and Transmuntations. By this time my DM was getting mad because he couldn't throw anything add use that could kill me. Everyone else had been through two characters by now and he finally ended my armor enchanting days by throwing a High lvl dragon at us that could command rust monster??o.O?? So I must say be careful when allow PCs to make their own Powered Combat Armor like that in Starship Troopers(The book not the moive that was a disappointment). Especially if they are an Artificer. I have seen and done crazy things with that class.

Thanks, Sebastian! Really glad you liked it; I tried to fit in all the aspects you requested, and as I have exams next week, it was great to have something else to keep one's brain occupied in revision breaks.