Hello all. Our DM has told us were are probably going to be fighting demons in our next adventure. I get to build an 11th level character and need some assistance, since I haven't ever played a demon heavy campaign and don't want to be burden on a high-level party.
The party already has a paladin, life oracle and a witch. I have existing high-level characters that I am familiar playing and can adjust to the setting (barbarian, sorcerer druid), or I could create something new to augment the party (rogue, ranger, etc.) I don't know how much of a dungeon crawl this will be, so I don't want to specialize too much -- it just needs to be good against demons. I don't feel the need to totally min/max/optimize, but I don't want to be playing a worthless, death magnet that's basically luggage after the first encounter. Thanks.
Really, the only things I'd suggest would be having a way to deal with DR and making sure your Fort and Will saves are good.
A barbarian with Superstition and maybe a little grappling could be good. A sorcerer with demon blood would be a cool concept, and arcane spells rock. Druid is like a splash of both.
When you're talking about fighting a specific type of enemy, rangers are always going to come up. A rogue might need a few extra-special tricks up their sleeve to get the drop on a number of demons, but I have always found such images particularly awesome:
The wingéd fiend is locked in mortal combat with the white knight and his comrades. Eldritch fire in the air, fell curses, dire enchantments, the stink of sulfur. Suddenly, an unassuming bloke in oiled leather sidesteps the monstrous foe and, with a smirk and a well-timed thrust of his trusty dagger, the demon freezes, chokes, and falls. --just sort of a gritty-realism-trumps-fantastic-craziness sort of thing.
How do rogue/ranger types usually get around DR? I will have about 80k GP to build out the PC -- is there any great weapon enhancement I should get? And do demons take precision/sneak damage?
sandrat wrote: How do rogue/ranger types usually get around DR? I will have about 80k GP to build out the PC -- is there any great weapon enhancement I should get? And do demons take precision/sneak damage? Ranged rangers get around it by taking Clustered Shots. It pools all the damage together before applying DR. Rogues get around it by having huge amounts of Sneak Attack Dice. Demons can take precision damage unless its a particular ability of a specific demon type.
Buy Cold Iron Holy Weapons. Or Cold Iron Ammunition for a ranged character. That'll solve 90% of demon DR problems.
With a Paladin, Oracle, Witch team already you're looking at probably Slayer or Rogue if you're interested in filling the 'Trap Finding and Disabling' Niche of the party. Slayer can do everything a Rogue can do for the most part.
Cold iron weapons are a must if you do melee. A few oils of bless weapon are also a good idea (for bypassing DR/good).
You can dispense with cold iron if you get a bane (evil outsider) weapon. That increases the enhancement bonus to +3, which bypasses DR/cold iron.
sandrat wrote: How do rogue/ranger types usually get around DR? I will have about 80k GP to build out the PC -- is there any great weapon enhancement I should get? And do demons take precision/sneak damage? Sneak Attack works on just about everything as long it has discernable anatomy, so, you're out of luck when it comes to Oozes, Swarms, and incorporeal Undead. Maybe not Elementals?
Sneak Attack Damage lumps in with the regular weapon Damage when computing Damage - DR, so Sneak Attack in and of itself is a fairly good countermeasure against DR.
Bane, Holy, and Axiomatic are obvious choices for weapon enchantments when you are facing Demons. Align Weapon Spell, Weapon Against Evil, but not so much for a high level party.
Creatures with high DR can usually still be Grappled, Tripped, Bull Rushed and stuff. A Grappling character might be a good way to go if you are fighting demons. And remember that when you kill a Balor Demon, thwy explode in that huge fireball, so honestly, Grappling is actually the best way to handle a Balor Demon.
And honestly, don't you think your GM is going to throw a Balor Demon in there somewhere? I mean, how could he resist?
If you are use to playing a barbarian, go barbarian. Especially if you are the pouncing Beast Totem build.
Equipment wise, the above suggested cold-iron holy demon bane weapon will get you past most DR threats. If you are making a new character, you might consider going with a Greatsword or Butchering Axe build. Not sure the extra 1d6 damage from the Butchering Axe is worth a feat, but an 11th level characters should have the wiggle room to include it. Actually a two-handed crit build will probably do better since most of your damage should come from adds.
Also grab some weapon blanch to help when you run into the unexpected. A little silver and adamantium blanch will cover for the weird stuff.
Other than that, cloak of resistance +4/5 and good armor. Think about getting either winged boots or a few potions of fly just in case. And pay for a Wand of Cure Light Wounds to keep the life oracle happy.
When fighting a specific type of enemy it is hard to beat a ranger. The thing that makes it so strong is that it give both a bonus to hit and a bonus to damage. This is especially true for an archer. Rapid shot gives you an extra attack, but all you attacks take a -2 to hit. Deadly aim allows you to take a penalty to hit and add to your damage. The bonus to hit from favored enemy can cancel them out and still give you a better than normal chance to hit. The big problem with the ranger is that he does not do as well against things that are not his favored enemy. Sure he still does decent, but nowhere near as much as he will with his favored enemy. You can somewhat balance it by not over specializing. In this case you may want to put +4 into evil outsiders, +4 into undead, and +2 into human. Usually demon heavy also means a decent amount of undead. Humans are also fairly common.
That being said another good choice would be an inquisitor. Being able to add bane to any weapon you wield is very useful. Pick up a Bane Bardic and your bane is counted as 5 levels higher which means you get greater bane. Since bane also increases the enchantment bonus of the weapon you use it can help to overcome DR. If you have at least a+3 weapon to start you should be able to ignore most DR except for that requiring an epic weapon. And if you need to you can use Judgement of Smiting to overcome Alignment or Adamantine DR.
You have good Fort and will save and at this level if you make the save you completely ignore the attack completely. You get a decent number of skill points and bonuses to a lot of skills. With Improve monster lore you can identify monster better than just about any character. And you are a 6th level caster with a very versatile spell list. If you go human or half human you can get extra spells as a favored class bonus.
Inquisitor would make a great addition. Ranger is a solid 2nd for me in this situation. Rogue will likely evaporate the second a CR appropriate Fortitude or Will save flies their way.
Horizon Walker Ranger could also be really strong if you want to hyper specialize at killing Demons. Like a +12 to ATK/DMG against anything from the abyss and your weapons count as Good aligned for damage reduction. Then a +2 vs a bunch of other creatures as well.
Just to check, did the GM write down "demons", or did they say it verbally, and if the latter did you confirm that it was definitely "demons" and not "daemons"? It would be embarrassing if you got all tool up with cold iron, and then it didn't help (you need silver for daemons-with-an-A) due to Paizo (or rather TSR) deciding to have two monster names that are hompohones.
Having said that, you should just about be able to aford an +1 evil-outsider bane holy weapon. That will count as +3 against Evil outsiders, which means it counts as cold iron (and silver) for DR. Since it also counts as good, it will bypass most both demon and daemon DR in the vast majority of cases. You probably do not need to worry about an actual special material unless you are worried about the weapon getting supressed with dispell magic.
OTOH, if you are an archer, definitely get cold iron arrows as the extra cost is pretty trivial, and cold iron arrows do not affect how much it costs to add enhancements to your bow.
Aside from that, just get the usual stuff - the best cloak of resistance and stat boosters you can aford. Armour appropriate to your class.
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glass.
glass wrote: Just to check, did the GM write down "demons", or did they say it verbally, and if the latter did you confirm that it was definitely "demons" and not "daemons"? It would be embarrassing if you got all tool up with cold iron, and then it didn't help (you need silver for daemons-with-an-A) due to Paizo (or rather TSR) deciding to have two monster names that are hompohones.
Having said that, you should just about be able to aford an +1 evil-outsider bane holy weapon. That will count as +3 against Evil outsiders, which means it counts as cold iron (and silver) for DR. Since it also counts as good, it will bypass most both demon and daemon DR in the vast majority of cases. You probably do not need to worry about an actual special material unless you are worried about the weapon getting supressed with dispell magic.
OTOH, if you are an archer, definitely get cold iron arrows as the extra cost is pretty trivial, and cold iron arrows do not affect how much it costs to add enhancements to your bow.
Aside from that, just get the usual stuff - the best cloak of resistance and stat boosters you can aford. Armour appropriate to your class.
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glass.
I've seen table variation on whether or not bane's extra enhancement bonus allows the weapon to overcome DR. Ask your GM.
Kasoh wrote: glass wrote: Just to check, did the GM write down "demons", or did they say it verbally, and if the latter did you confirm that it was definitely "demons" and not "daemons"? It would be embarrassing if you got all tool up with cold iron, and then it didn't help (you need silver for daemons-with-an-A) due to Paizo (or rather TSR) deciding to have two monster names that are hompohones.
Having said that, you should just about be able to aford an +1 evil-outsider bane holy weapon. That will count as +3 against Evil outsiders, which means it counts as cold iron (and silver) for DR. Since it also counts as good, it will bypass most both demon and daemon DR in the vast majority of cases. You probably do not need to worry about an actual special material unless you are worried about the weapon getting supressed with dispell magic.
OTOH, if you are an archer, definitely get cold iron arrows as the extra cost is pretty trivial, and cold iron arrows do not affect how much it costs to add enhancements to your bow.
Aside from that, just get the usual stuff - the best cloak of resistance and stat boosters you can aford. Armour appropriate to your class.
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glass.
I've seen table variation on whether or not bane's extra enhancement bonus allows the weapon to overcome DR. Ask your GM. There is a FAQ that says it does. Specifically it says that a +4 weapon with bane will beat DR/epic, but if that is a +6 weapon for overcoming DR then a +1 bane weapon should be a +3 weapon for overcoming DR.
thorin001 wrote: Kasoh wrote: glass wrote: Just to check, did the GM write down "demons", or did they say it verbally, and if the latter did you confirm that it was definitely "demons" and not "daemons"? It would be embarrassing if you got all tool up with cold iron, and then it didn't help (you need silver for daemons-with-an-A) due to Paizo (or rather TSR) deciding to have two monster names that are hompohones.
Having said that, you should just about be able to aford an +1 evil-outsider bane holy weapon. That will count as +3 against Evil outsiders, which means it counts as cold iron (and silver) for DR. Since it also counts as good, it will bypass most both demon and daemon DR in the vast majority of cases. You probably do not need to worry about an actual special material unless you are worried about the weapon getting supressed with dispell magic.
OTOH, if you are an archer, definitely get cold iron arrows as the extra cost is pretty trivial, and cold iron arrows do not affect how much it costs to add enhancements to your bow.
Aside from that, just get the usual stuff - the best cloak of resistance and stat boosters you can aford. Armour appropriate to your class.
_
glass.
I've seen table variation on whether or not bane's extra enhancement bonus allows the weapon to overcome DR. Ask your GM. There is a FAQ that says it does. Specifically it says that a +4 weapon with bane will beat DR/epic, but if that is a +6 weapon for overcoming DR then a +1 bane weapon should be a +3 weapon for overcoming DR. FAQs only answer the question posed to them, and with regards to DR/Epic, you are correct. But that doesn't mean anything about other kinds of DR.
Kasoh wrote: thorin001 wrote: I've seen table variation on whether or not bane's extra enhancement bonus allows the weapon to overcome DR. Ask your GM. There is a FAQ that says it does. Specifically it says that a +4 weapon with bane will beat DR/epic, but if that is a +6 weapon for overcoming DR then a +1 bane weapon should be a +3 weapon for overcoming DR. FAQs only answer the question posed to them, and with regards to DR/Epic, you are correct. But that doesn't mean anything about other kinds of DR. The FAQ is not necesary, anyway.
Bane weapons increase the enhancement bonuses against suitable targets, and do not list any exceptions to what that can effect. So it does what any normal enhancement bonus would do, and that includes overcoming DR of the appropriate types.
But by all means check with the GM; communication is never a bad idea.
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glass.
My group had to face demons a while ago - and their biggest problem was that the fiends escaped via teleport several times. For a melee PC feats like Pin Down or Teleport Tactician are very handy - but they are reserved to fighters (and others who count as fighters for feats).
Targeting demons with spells is challenging. You have to get around their innate spell resistance (be an elf, Spell Penetration, Piercing Spell etc. - or spells that don't allow SR). And they have an impressive array of resistances, with immunity to electricity on top. You can compensate with increasing your acid / cold / fire damage (bloodline arcanas, metamagic etc.) or using more exotic damage types (force, sonic, negative energy etc.).
One other thing to worry about with dealing direct damage to demons is energy immunities and resistances. If you go with an Arcane Caster or Kineticist or something, try using Force or Sonic for damage. If you're thinking of tacking energy damage on your weapon only use Holy since 1d6 or even 2d6 of the other energies probably won't get through.
As far as class recommendations, I'd second an Inquisitor. Using a crossbow or bow, taking the feat Clustered Shots and pumping all your damage into singular bursts to overcome DR is good.
Of course, there's something to be said for Warpriest too. Very martial, deal lots of damage with six levels of Divine casting, quick buffing just in case through Fervor, and a few bonus feats while counting as a level 11 fighter.
You could even go Divine Commander and get a mount that gets the Celestial template. Slap some magic items/spell buffs on said mount to pump up its Cha and milk that 1/day Smite ability if you have to nova. Fun times.
Actually, if you're considering going Warpriest AND considering going Divine Commander, can I interest you in a 3 level dip into Hunter as well? You can really take advantage of those Teamwork feats. Plus you could go Halfling; their Favored Class bonus is a slightly faster Sacred Weapon damage progression.
As a Warpriest (Divine Commander) 8/Hunter 3 you'd have 1d6 Sacred Weapon base damage, with 1d8 coming in one more level. Sticking with the Halfling Slingstaff and using the Warslinger alternate racial trait you could have Rapid Shot on the sling and only be paying once for weapon enhancements that affect both your ranged and melee attacks.
With Teamwork feats you and your mount (I like a Wolf but you pick whatever suits you) would share them all (thanks to Hunter) and you'd pick up Outflank and Pack Flanking. Adding this to Broken Wing Gambit and Paired Opportunists you'd be romping with AoOs when in melee or you could hang back, lob multiple sling bullets from 30' and still have enough feats to take Clustered Shots.
These two classes together give you access to decent armor, no penalties to Ride checks while mounted from Armor Check penalties, plenty of buff spells for you and your mount, not to mention a +9 Fort, +5 Ref and +7 Will, before your stats, gear and feats.
Oh, and don't forget that your mount is a decently combat optimized boost to all of your attacks while in melee. By level 11, since both classes stack with the AC, your mount has +6 BAB; +10 to attack before stats, gear and other feats thanks to Outflank and Pack Flanking. If a demon takes the bait and triggers AoOs from Broken Wing Gambit, your AC is making an AoO with +14 to attack again, before stats, gear and other feats.
If you did take a wolf, regardless of where you put stat bonuses its baseline Str is 24; 26 if you put your Hunter's Animal Focus on Str for it all day. In an AoO with you mounted it has Bite +22 (1d8 +12) against the foe that triggered the AoO. Then you add in a +1 Holy Amulet of Mighty Fists for those bonuses, take a couple feats on your AC to help attack and damage, and you're a force to be reckoned with.
Mortal Usher on top of fighter or bloodrager (abysal maybe for enlarge person) can hit hard enough to over come almost any DR. With the right weapon or blanch you can be very effective.
A butcher's ax with impacting on it will work extra well with this.
Power attack and furious focus and maybe the weapon focus tree.
That would be 13d6 + 20 - 30 ish + any situational modifier is like being enlarged or anything like that.
Flavor works too.
Honestly thinking about it I'm pretty sure my numbers are low
Go full channel Aasimar Blossoming Light build and be backup heals plus aoe
Joynt Jezebel wrote: Don't. Is that aimed at me? If so. "don't" what?
(I am assuming you do not mean don't mess up quote tages and then not notice until the edit window is closed. Ship's sailed on that one.)
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glass.
No, my post wasn't aimed at you or anyone else. In fact I hadn't even read your post.
What was intended was a simple response to the thread title
"Recommendations with dealing with demons when you are not playing the paladin" ie Don't. Which still sounds like good advice.
And I am not hypocritical enough to criticise anyone for messing up quotes on a message board. :(
If it's super demon heavy, the Demon Slayer feat and Demon Hunter trait are excellent. Another thing to consider is the feat Big Game Hunter, which gives bonuses to hit and damage vs. large creatures (such as many demons, as well as a variety of other foes).
Superstitious barbarian is definitely a solid option, as is ranger.
Straight fighter could be viable too, and is my personal favorite. The advanced weapon/armor options have ones that let you shore up your saves and the Warrior Spirit advanced weapon training will let you give your sword the phase locking special ability, which will prevent any pesky teleportation. Pair that with Combat Reflexes and Pin Down and you've got great battlefield control. Maybe use a trip weapon too if you want. Other great options for warrior spirit include evil outsider bane, holy, or even just a higher enhancement bonus to help punch through DR.
+1 for cold iron.
Happy hunting!
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