Cthulhusquatch |
DeciusNero wrote:Love the cover - celestials need more love.
A bunch of celestial lords and illistrated holy symbols?! Sounds great! The lords of darkness, while a fan, seem to hog the spotlight too much.
Wonder if any of them are patrons of alchemy? A player of a good alchemist complained of them having an 'evil dispostion', what with powers like Norgober/Blackfingers, Abraxas, and Haagenti.
I could see a lord from Nirvana emphasizing herbs and concoctions for achieving enlightenment :)
Given the talk of alchemy getting some unusual treatment in Champions of Purity, I get the feeling there will probably be an appropriate patron in there somewhere. :)
Can't help but wonder if Ragathiel has some fiendish features hidden in the cover. He does seem to have the Peri-style wings going on, which certainly works for his history....
Can't believe I never thought about Ragathiel possibly being Peri-related when he's almost the textbook example...
Not a Peri... he is the son of a demigoddess from the Plane of Fire and Dispater.
Mikaze |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Dispater's article in the last issue of Kobold Quarterly was certainly interesting. There was plenty of fuel for folks that would like ot view him that way.
But man there's a lot of evidence to the contrary supplied as well. Those sacrifice details... :O
He's the most personable and relatable of the archdevils. And that's probably part of what makes him one of the most dangerous to get close to.
No matter which way you lean(or in between), that article is a total must-read. :)
(info on Dis and his ex-wives too!)
Heine Stick |
Dispater's article in the last issue of Kobold Quarterly was certainly interesting. There was plenty of fuel for folks that would like ot view him that way.
But man there's a lot of evidence to the contrary supplied as well. Those sacrifice details... :O
He's the most personable and relatable of the archdevils. And that's probably part of what makes him one of the most dangerous to get close to.
No matter which way you lean(or in between), that article is a total must-read. :)
(info on Dis and his ex-wives too!)
Agreed. That series of articles by Wes Schneider is one of many reasons why I'm sad to see the magazine go. Wes had an awesoe thing going with the articles.
DeciusNero |
He's the most personable and relatable of the archdevils. And that's probably part of what makes him one of the most dangerous to get close to.
No matter which way you lean(or in between), that article is a total must-read. :)
(info on Dis and his ex-wives too!)
Which one is it? I'm a big fan of Dispater since Fiendish Codex I. Also, is there one on Glasya, Levistus, and Mephistophles?
Mikaze |
Mikaze wrote:Which one is it? I'm a big fan of Dispater since Fiendish Codex I. Also, is there one on Glasya, Levistus, and Mephistophles?He's the most personable and relatable of the archdevils. And that's probably part of what makes him one of the most dangerous to get close to.
No matter which way you lean(or in between), that article is a total must-read. :)
(info on Dis and his ex-wives too!)
It was the last issue, Kobold Quarterly #23(IIRC). The issue before that had Barbatos. I think the original plan was to go through all 8 of Asmodeus' running crew in order.
Mikaze |
One thing I particularly liked about the two articles that were published was manifestations. Pretty cool concept.
srsly, that's something that needs to get brought back and expanded upon.
Man, Wrath of the Righteous could probably put demonic variations of that to very good(and horrifying use).
(then again...so could these incoming Empyreal Lords in that same AP!)
Odraude |
DeciusNero wrote:It was the last issue, Kobold Quarterly #23(IIRC). The issue before that had Barbatos. I think the original plan was to go through all 8 of Asmodeus' running crew in order.Mikaze wrote:Which one is it? I'm a big fan of Dispater since Fiendish Codex I. Also, is there one on Glasya, Levistus, and Mephistophles?He's the most personable and relatable of the archdevils. And that's probably part of what makes him one of the most dangerous to get close to.
No matter which way you lean(or in between), that article is a total must-read. :)
(info on Dis and his ex-wives too!)
Maybe Wes can get on Open Gaming Monthly and continue with those articles.
HINT HINT WES!! ;)
Secane |
Yep! Those specific archdevil articles and quite a few others spread out across many other issues are official stuff!
(there's plenty of general use stuff that fits beautifully into Golarion as well(<3 Adriel from #4 forever))
Is there a compilation of these articles somewhere?
Would really love to read up more on in-game lore.Mikaze |
Is there a compilation of these articles somewhere?
Would really love to read up more on in-game lore.
I don't think so, and I'm not sure what the reprint situation would be like in that case. But they're all still available in the individual KQ issues(some in print, ALL in pdf!).
I believe the product descriptions for each issue says which ones are PF specific, but I'm not sure if any would slip through the cracks looking back that way.
They were even printing PFS scenarios in there from time to time!
Gorbacz |
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I hope that not all Empyreal Lords presented in the book are of "TURBO GOOD" variety, and there are at least a few whose interpretation of what is "good" does not exactly mesh with your average PCs ideas of it, opening avenues for conflict.
Because there are few things cooler than "see, this guy here is a walking personification of Good. He shoots Beams of Redemption from his eyes. Also, he's in your way."
graywulfe |
I hope that not all Empyreal Lords presented in the book are of "TURBO GOOD" variety, and there are at least a few whose interpretation of what is "good" does not exactly mesh with your average PCs ideas of it, opening avenues for conflict.
Because there are few things cooler than "see, this guy here is a walking personification of Good. He shoots Beams of Redemption from his eyes. Also, he's in your way."
We can't even get the players to agree on what defines good and evil... I think we are safe. :P
DeciusNero |
I hope that not all Empyreal Lords presented in the book are of "TURBO GOOD" variety, and there are at least a few whose interpretation of what is "good" does not exactly mesh with your average PCs ideas of it, opening avenues for conflict.
Seconded; hopefully no, "alcohol and sex is evil/unpure" silliness.
Gorbacz |
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Gorbacz wrote:Seconded; hopefully no, "alcohol and sex is evil/unpure" silliness.I hope that not all Empyreal Lords presented in the book are of "TURBO GOOD" variety, and there are at least a few whose interpretation of what is "good" does not exactly mesh with your average PCs ideas of it, opening avenues for conflict.
Considering that the deity of having quality time with wine and fine company with little in the way of clothing on is Chaotic Good in Golarion and there were hints about a transgender Empyreal Lord, I believe Paizo will stick close to their usual guns as far as booze and shagging are concerned.
Mikaze |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
DeciusNero wrote:Considering that the deity of having quality time with wine and fine company with little in the way of clothing on is Chaotic Good in Golarion and there were hints about a transgender Empyreal Lord, I believe Paizo will stick close to their usual guns as far as booze and shagging are concerned.Gorbacz wrote:Seconded; hopefully no, "alcohol and sex is evil/unpure" silliness.I hope that not all Empyreal Lords presented in the book are of "TURBO GOOD" variety, and there are at least a few whose interpretation of what is "good" does not exactly mesh with your average PCs ideas of it, opening avenues for conflict.
Not just hinted at! Arshea not only can't be contained by one gender, IIRC s/he also embodies every positive aspect of every healthy form of sexuality.
And that Desna/Shelyn/Sarenrae fanart has turned out to be essentially canon.
And Cayden Cailean's relationships with Calistria(who is also gender-flippy at times, hmm...) have been mentioned as well.
And Torag and Cayden are drinking buddies.
Good isn't in any danger of being portrayed as sex-negative or alcohol-forbidding here. :)
"Devil's Advocate" |
Better question is why is that somehow a bad thing? While CC might be all about drinking and whoring, I doubt for instance Iomedae or Erastil would see any virtue in it, and probably a lot of vice as it can directly contrindicate their spheres of influence as well as derail from what their followers should be doing.
Iori, likewise would probably see both as ways to fall from the path of enlightenment and traps for those that seek to better themselves. Deemphasizing something to be "modern and mainstream" doesn't make it cool. On the other hand, showing to what level of moderation or in what circumstances different Good faiths do accept these things, particularly if it does range from extremely little to encouraged without trying to be heavy handed in the personal point of view through the setting would be great.
Todd Stewart Contributor |
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Good isn't in any danger of being portrayed as sex-negative or alcohol-forbidding here. :)
Let's go for a good aligned version of Zon-Kuthon now. There's too long of a tradition in D&D of whips and body piercings being the exclusive club of evil.
Something in the sense of 'voluntarily submit yourself into my care and I will expand your boundaries. Bow to me and I will expand your senses. Kneel and I will make you better. I will break you and make you stronger. You will suffer and I will melt away your flaws. You will suffer and in knowing that pain you will know what others have and will feel in this world, except that their suffering is not voluntary at the hands of the wicked. Know suffering and learn compassion. But first, suffer for me.'
Kajehase |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Mikaze wrote:
Good isn't in any danger of being portrayed as sex-negative or alcohol-forbidding here. :)Let's go for a good aligned version of Zon-Kuthon now. There's too long of a tradition in D&D of whips and body piercings being the exclusive club of evil.
Something in the sense of 'voluntarily submit yourself into my care and I will expand your boundaries. Bow to me and I will expand your senses. Kneel and I will make you better. I will break you and make you stronger. You will suffer and I will melt away your flaws. You will suffer and in knowing that pain you will know what others have and will feel in this world, except that their suffering is not voluntary at the hands of the wicked. Know suffering and learn compassion. But first, suffer for me.'
*hands out copies of Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel series to everyone*
Secane |
Gorbacz wrote:DeciusNero wrote:Considering that the deity of having quality time with wine and fine company with little in the way of clothing on is Chaotic Good in Golarion and there were hints about a transgender Empyreal Lord, I believe Paizo will stick close to their usual guns as far as booze and shagging are concerned.Gorbacz wrote:Seconded; hopefully no, "alcohol and sex is evil/unpure" silliness.I hope that not all Empyreal Lords presented in the book are of "TURBO GOOD" variety, and there are at least a few whose interpretation of what is "good" does not exactly mesh with your average PCs ideas of it, opening avenues for conflict.
Not just hinted at! Arshea not only can't be contained by one gender, IIRC s/he also embodies every positive aspect of every healthy form of sexuality.
And that Desna/Shelyn/Sarenrae fanart has turned out to be essentially canon.
And Cayden Cailean's relationships with Calistria(who is also gender-flippy at times, hmm...) have been mentioned as well.
And Torag and Cayden are drinking buddies.
Good isn't in any danger of being portrayed as sex-negative or alcohol-forbidding here. :)
I notice that most Golarion Deities embody some kinda flaw. Be it 2 sides of the same coin in some way. Or just not... perfect in what they are.
Sarenrae - Goddess of healing AND beat the crap out of you.
Shelyn - Goddess of love/art/beauty AND have an evil weapon as a her favored weapon. Not to mention an evil brother.
------------
I can totally see a empyreal lord of alcohol-forbidding, being the cup-bearer of the other gods.
Or having a history of alcoholism, and only got alcohol-forbidding after coming out of AA him/herself.
On a similar note.
A empyreal lord that is sex-negative, may once be the herald of Calistria.
Or a he can be like the Zhu Bajie aka "Pigsy" from the Journey to the West story.
In another words, an empyreal lord that "lust" after sex, but being forbidden to enjoy/take part in such acts, becomes a being that opposes sex instead.
Perram |
Gorbacz wrote:DeciusNero wrote:Considering that the deity of having quality time with wine and fine company with little in the way of clothing on is Chaotic Good in Golarion and there were hints about a transgender Empyreal Lord, I believe Paizo will stick close to their usual guns as far as booze and shagging are concerned.Gorbacz wrote:Seconded; hopefully no, "alcohol and sex is evil/unpure" silliness.I hope that not all Empyreal Lords presented in the book are of "TURBO GOOD" variety, and there are at least a few whose interpretation of what is "good" does not exactly mesh with your average PCs ideas of it, opening avenues for conflict.
Not just hinted at! Arshea not only can't be contained by one gender, IIRC s/he also embodies every positive aspect of every healthy form of sexuality.
And that Desna/Shelyn/Sarenrae fanart has turned out to be essentially canon.
And Cayden Cailean's relationships with Calistria(who is also gender-flippy at times, hmm...) have been mentioned as well.
And Torag and Cayden are drinking buddies.
Good isn't in any danger of being portrayed as sex-negative or alcohol-forbidding here. :)
Also just to mention that Cayden's HOLY SYMBOL is a mug of beer...
Also, where is this fan art? :)
Mikaze |
Mikaze wrote:
Good isn't in any danger of being portrayed as sex-negative or alcohol-forbidding here. :)Let's go for a good aligned version of Zon-Kuthon now. There's too long of a tradition in D&D of whips and body piercings being the exclusive club of evil.
Something in the sense of 'voluntarily submit yourself into my care and I will expand your boundaries. Bow to me and I will expand your senses. Kneel and I will make you better. I will break you and make you stronger. You will suffer and I will melt away your flaws. You will suffer and in knowing that pain you will know what others have and will feel in this world, except that their suffering is not voluntary at the hands of the wicked. Know suffering and learn compassion. But first, suffer for me.'
Given Arshea's scope(and her favored weapon), there might be some of that possible with that Empyreal even if it isn't his/her primary focus. I know s/he has Liberation as a big deal, but then again, metaphirally speaking that could fit as well.
Along those same lines, I seriously can't see Shelyn not being that for those seeking the healthy form of it. "Roses have thorns" and such. :)
If Dou-Bral does get restored(Probably in a halfway state between what he was and what he became), he might wind up having that kind of flavor.
But yeah, something that didn't treat that particular crowd like warped villains would be really nice, and it wouldn't even have to be sexualized. It could be a philosophical parallel(kind of like Ilmater with a bit of a different spin?). With the sexual aspects being welcomed. (but strictly adhering to SSC!)
NSFW given the culture of the site that spawned it of course
edit-You know, Champions of Purity is going to have self-mortification options...
Mikaze |
I notice that most Golarion Deities embody some kinda flaw. Be it 2 sides of the same coin in some way. Or just not... perfect in what they are.
Sarenrae - Goddess of healing AND beat the crap out of you.
Shelyn - Goddess of love/art/beauty AND have an evil weapon as a her favored weapon. Not to mention an evil brother.
------------
I can totally see a empyreal lord of alcohol-forbidding, being the cup-bearer of the other gods.
Or having a history of alcoholism, and only got alcohol-forbidding after coming out of AA him/herself.
On a similar note.
A empyreal lord that is sex-negative, may once be the herald of Calistria.
Or a he can be like the Zhu Bajie aka "Pigsy" from the Journey to the West story.
In another words, an empyreal lord that "lust" after...
Yeah, it should be noted that the concerns some folks had were probably more "I hope Good in general, across the board, isn't portrayed as sex-negative or alchohol forbidding".
Because there is totally room in Good's big tent for the chaste and abstaining, and they shouldn't be marginalized any more than the folks that often were up to this point. :)
I have a feeling Korada might represent some of that, but could be wrong. I'm eager to see which way his benign asceticism goes.(he's one of the ones we know of already I'm most excited to see expanded upon)
("Cursed"/ailment-suffering/imperfect Empyreals will hopefully be a thing!)
((and now I want a Pigsy analogue, primarily just to have a Pigsy(and Monkey and Tripitaka)in the pantheon :D))
DeciusNero |
DeciusNero wrote:Considering that the deity of having quality time with wine and fine company with little in the way of clothing on is Chaotic Good in Golarion and there were hints about a transgender Empyreal Lord, I believe Paizo will stick close to their usual guns as far as booze and shagging are concerned.Gorbacz wrote:Seconded; hopefully no, "alcohol and sex is evil/unpure" silliness.I hope that not all Empyreal Lords presented in the book are of "TURBO GOOD" variety, and there are at least a few whose interpretation of what is "good" does not exactly mesh with your average PCs ideas of it, opening avenues for conflict.
True, and not against having an empyreal lord/deity saying that sex/drugs/rock 'n roll is forbidden. I just don't want Book of Exalted Deeds redux, which I'm sure won't happen ;^.^
Anyway! Looking forward!
Odraude |
Gorbacz wrote:DeciusNero wrote:Considering that the deity of having quality time with wine and fine company with little in the way of clothing on is Chaotic Good in Golarion and there were hints about a transgender Empyreal Lord, I believe Paizo will stick close to their usual guns as far as booze and shagging are concerned.Gorbacz wrote:Seconded; hopefully no, "alcohol and sex is evil/unpure" silliness.I hope that not all Empyreal Lords presented in the book are of "TURBO GOOD" variety, and there are at least a few whose interpretation of what is "good" does not exactly mesh with your average PCs ideas of it, opening avenues for conflict.
True, and not against having an empyreal lord/deity saying that sex/drugs/rock 'n roll is forbidden. I just don't want Book of Exalted Deeds redux, which I'm sure won't happen ;^.^
Anyway! Looking forward!
What was the issue with the BoED?
DeciusNero |
What was the issue with the BoED?
I guess I just felt most of the fluff was geared to portraying celestially inspired characters/divine patrons as more Puritan in flavor - being chaste, not imbibing, etc.
Also with spells having RP stuff as balance mechanics, such as "you can't cast this spell if you drank alcohol in the past x days."(I also had a similar reaction to BoVD - I felt it went too far in portraying evil as super-grim dark - which, yes, it's what evil usually is, but I felt it was sometimes bordering on squick.)
Mikaze |
and to try and get back on topic because TWO MORE MONTHS:
Also really excited about the possible new information on Jatembe. Maybe we'll get to find out some of the finer details of his exploits in between learning about the celestial magic he possibly brought to Golarion.
(That is, if it is Jatembe that was being referred to elsewhere!)
Set |
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Let's go for a good aligned version of Zon-Kuthon now. There's too long of a tradition in D&D of whips and body piercings being the exclusive club of evil.
Heck yeah. A good rune-magic-sort of dude covered with magical tattoos and / or a dwarven empyreal who has set gems and golden ornaments directly into their body, and encourages their followers to do likewise, could be neat.
Also, a happy jolly good aligned fat empyreal could be a shocker. Generally, fat people are like ugly people, really old people or people with piercings in game art, always evil, or at least sketchy and amoral.
It's like a fantasy art rule that the person with the limp hair or the lazy eye or the physical deformity (hunchback, withered hand, etc.) is going to be the evil person. I remember in Dragonlance when the dude who had visible facial scarring from a childhood disease was the traitor to the Knights of Solamnia or whatever, and thinking, 'Wow, Edward James Olmos is doomed to be evil?'
Go Valeros, with your visible scars and yet good alignment!
Mikaze |
Heck yeah. A good rune-magic-sort of dude covered with magical tattoos and / or a dwarven empyreal who has set gems and golden ornaments directly into their body, and encourages their followers to do likewise, could be neat.
YES. I can't help but imagine a lot of folks in and around Varisia(but especially in Kaer Maga) "taking back" the Thassilonion fashion of implanted gems, separate from the negative baggage of that culture. Especially after the ioun stone implanting rules introduced in Seekers of Secrets. That aesthetic has to be getting some play with folks using mundane gems as well.
I mean hey, it works for Merisiel! :)
Also, a happy jolly good aligned fat empyreal could be a shocker. Generally, fat people are like ugly people, really old people or people with piercings in game art, always evil, or at least sketchy and amoral.
You know...it's far to late to have Cayden Cailean look like Jack Black(srsly, visualize it and say it doesn't fit!), but with the incoming Empyreals, this is something that needs to happen. :D
Dragon Empires gave us a full blown god like that. Hopefully we'll get to see someone similar illustrated?
Jessica Price Project Manager |
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DeciusNero wrote:Considering that the deity of having quality time with wine and fine company with little in the way of clothing on is Chaotic Good in Golarion and there were hints about a transgender Empyreal Lord, I believe Paizo will stick close to their usual guns as far as booze and shagging are concerned.Gorbacz wrote:Seconded; hopefully no, "alcohol and sex is evil/unpure" silliness.I hope that not all Empyreal Lords presented in the book are of "TURBO GOOD" variety, and there are at least a few whose interpretation of what is "good" does not exactly mesh with your average PCs ideas of it, opening avenues for conflict.
The thing to remember is that different good deities/empyreal lords have different approaches to goodness, so while some of them may view getting drunk/high/[altered state of choice] as a weakness, or even as an immoral act (voluntarily impairing your judgment/abilities/self-control enough that you risk hurting others), others may see it, in certain circumstances, as a way to open yourself to greater understanding and perception. (Various forms of chemical sensory alteration have a long and honored history in a lot of real-world religions, after all.) The different Empyreal Lords in CotR represent a lot of different viewpoints on the right way to do goodness, and have contrasting views even within the same alignment.
All of that said, insofar as deity-independent alignment-related themes are outlined anywhere in the campaign setting (and this is more in Champions of Purity than CotR), I'd say both altered states and sexuality come out pretty value-neutral. The concept of "purity" is explicitly not tied to celibacy in Champions. Different Empyreal Lords have different approaches to the whole thing, however.
Jessica Price Project Manager |
I don't know. I don't see one the fellows using artificial means for a temporary means of mind "Expansion."
Why?
I suppose Cayden Cailean's take on it is more that alcohol enhances comradery, and not so much about a meditative mind-expanding experience, but when one of your good gods is famous for being drunk you're already on that road.
It's fair to argue with any earth deity whether they're "good" or not, since we don't have an absolute, inarguable, detectable system of alignment in the real world, but Dionysus represents, among other things, just that viewpoint. The use of psychoactive substances for religious purposes has a pretty extensive history here in the real world (see, for example: http://listverse.com/2008/05/11/top-10-psychoactive-substances-used-in-reli gious-ceremonies/).
As I said, there's a wide spectrum of approaches to goodness with the different deities and empyreal lords, and as both psychoactive substances (whether alcohol or others) and sexuality come out pretty value-neutral in Pathfinder overall, you're going to see a bunch of very different takes from different deities. Both of those realms of human experience are powerful, and different religions (both real-world and fictional) are have different philosophies as far as whether to try to harness that power to further their goals or to reject it because of its destructive potential.
Given both A) the breadth of real-world religious traditions from which aspects of Golarion's deities are drawn, and B) the fact that I think most of the numerous contributors to these products recognize that portrayal is not necessarily endorsement, which frees up those contributors to create a lot of different belief systems without being confined to only representing their personal philosophies, you can end up with deities who represent even directly conflicting viewpoints both on the good side of the alignment table.
For example, there are real-world practices of mortification of the flesh (e.g. Catholic self-flagellation) which arise from the belief that pain is purifying, or that there's an opposed dichotomy between flesh and spirit and spirit must be privileged, or even that pain as an intense physical sensation ties flesh and spirit more closely together. In this view, pain is sacred, or at least can be harnessed for sacred purposes. A more mild version of this school of thought results in asceticism (which is less about the pursuit of physical pain than the renunciation of physical pleasure).
In contrast, there's also the real-world philosophy of epicureanism, in which the highest good is pleasure (defined as tranquility and the absence of pain). In this view, pain (or at least causing pain) is evil.
And both of those schools of thought are pretty clearly present in the conceptions of different empyreal lords and the religious practices of their followers.
The NPC |
*Non accusatory* Please note, I wasn't making moral judgements on the matter.
I think my doubt on the matter comes more from the image of "pop a pill or smoke a joint and somehow you're instantly wiser and more aware than those stiffs that harsh your mellow."
I would assume any tradition that includes psychedelics or flagellation has more to than "Want enlightenment? Just add pesh." Wouldn't they be building towards something and the use of such substances or actions be the add on?
As I said this isn't about whether it's good or not. It's about real and long lasting versus fake and short lived.
Jessica Price Project Manager |
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Well, most of the real-world traditions are also a lot more than "just add drugs," you know. :-) There are ritual frameworks, context, etc. and the effects of the drugs are channeled into that framework. If you're going on a shamanic quest, there's a bunch of learning and ritual preparation, and the drugs are the things that (in the context of the religious beliefs) help you leave your body to go commune with the divine, or (in the context of those outside the religion), give you hallucinations that you then interpret as religious visions.
I'm not sure how that differs, as to whether it's fake and short-lived versus real and long-lasting, from any other religious practice. Ceremonies, rituals, prayer, etc. are all about what you make of them, whether their focus is symbols, myths, or mysticism (drug-enhanced or not).