Just as a quick note, this is not a place where we are going to talk about changing the rogue. The design team feels pretty strongly that the rogue works just fine as it currently stands. The ninja on the other hand, is probably a bit more powerful and we are looking into ways of correcting that.
One other note, I think many folks are seriously under estimating the value of evasion. That reduction in damaging effects adds a great deal to the rogue's survivability against a number of foes and scenarios. Is it the same value as the ki mechanic as it currently stands... that is something we are still looking into.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Jason it is not a matter of whether evasion is good it is the conditions it takes to meet evasion.
Evasion is totally situationally based. Meaning that if your GM doesn't create a lot of options for evasion to occur, then essentially it doesn't grant that much of a benefit.
Also evasion only stops half damage from happening to a character, which is a marginal number.
For instance lets look at this:
5th level ninja 5th level rogue both get caught in a fireball by a 5th level wizard.
If the ninja were to somehow fail (unlikely) he would take 5d6. However the rogue has an equal chance to fail so lets just assume they both save.
if they both save lets see what happens:
average of 5d6 (15 points of damage) to mister ninja. 15 damage is nothing to scoff at, mister rogue gets away with a tattered coat. 15 damage to a level 5 character is enough to get him to not want to be hit. With his own seperate set of tricks (such as invisibility) not hard to avoid a wizards line of sight for an encounter.
Basically you can't say that people are under estimating evasion, because evasion is dependent upon GM, just as Trapfinding is dependent upon GM. The reason flack is being caught is due to those to abilities being situationally good while ki and poison use being dependent upon character use. It puts the control back in the hands of the player.
I would also argue that light steps the ability makes evasion and trapfinding irrelevant (because other than spellcasters traps are where evasion comes in handy).
just my thoughts, best of luck with the books!
Just as a quick note, this is not a place where we are going to talk about changing the rogue. The design team feels pretty strongly that the rogue works just fine as it currently stands. The ninja on the other hand, is probably a bit more powerful and we are looking into ways of correcting that.
One other note, I think many folks are seriously under estimating the value of evasion. That reduction in damaging effects adds a great deal to the rogue's survivability against a number of foes and scenarios. Is it the same value as the ki mechanic as it currently stands... that is something we are still looking into.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingJason it is not a matter of whether evasion is good it is the conditions it takes to meet evasion.
Evasion is totally situationally based. Meaning that if your GM doesn't create a lot of options for evasion to occur, then essentially it doesn't grant that much of a benefit.
Also evasion only stops half damage from happening to a character, which is a marginal number.
For instance lets look at this:
5th level ninja 5th level rogue both get caught in a fireball by a 5th level wizard.
If the ninja were to somehow fail (unlikely) he would take 5d6. However the rogue has an equal chance to fail so lets just assume they both save.
if they both save lets see what happens:
average of 5d6 (15 points of damage) to mister ninja. 15 damage is nothing to scoff at, mister rogue gets away with a tattered coat. 15 damage to a level 5 character is enough to get him to not want to be hit. With his own seperate set of tricks (such as invisibility) not hard to avoid a wizards line of sight for an encounter.
Basically you can't say that people are under estimating evasion, because evasion is dependent upon GM, just as Trapfinding is dependent upon GM. The reason flack is being caught is due to those to abilities being situationally good while ki and poison use being dependent upon character use. It puts the control back in the hands of the player.
I would also argue that light steps the ability makes evasion and trapfinding irrelevant (because other than spellcasters traps are where evasion comes in handy).
just my thoughts, best of luck with the books!
+1
Evasion is just not as cool a trick as ki because evasion happens "under the hood" without any input from the player. Ki is a resource totally controlled by the player and provides a great deal of flexibility at the player's whim, as opposed to "wait until the DM tells you to roll a Reflex save."
It's entirely possible that we are undervaluing Evasion, but given a choice between something the computer would handle for you in a game and you'd never even see or have input into and something that you can allocate and use as you wish, I'm going to choose the latter every time, because it's more fun to play. Even if you don't make the best tactical choices, at least you feel like you're doing something.
Of course, the DM can put up elementals and incorporeal undead only, and suddenly both poison and sneak attack are out of the window.
So the rogue becomes even worse? point?
I sorta posted this in apples to apples but it also seems apropos here.
Evasion being triggered by outside conditions, in of itself, does not make it less powerful than Ki pool, just less in the hands of the player. I can see how that would be less "fun", as Ki pool is more proactive, but not less "powerful" per say.
Perhaps what people really mean is that the ninja is too much more "fun" than the rogue.
Edit - I kinda feel that the fun/power struggle here is somewhat related to active vs passive abilities. A lot of people decry the monk for example, and they have a great deal of "passive" immunities.
Director of Game Design
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Hey there everybody,
No worries on the banter about evasion. We understand that evasion, just like trapfinding, is entirely based upon the whims of the GM, but so much in this game is that we have to assume, that all things being equal, such things do occur with some frequency. That said, proactive abilities are always going to be more compelling than reflexive ones, and we get that too.
It is tricky to swap one for the other and we are still working on the right balance point on this.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Dang Jason, you ninja'd my edit :D
Hey there everybody,
No worries on the banter about evasion. We understand that evasion, just like trapfinding, is entirely based upon the whims of the GM, but so much in this game is that we have to assume, that all things being equal, such things do occur with some frequency. That said, proactive abilities are always going to be more compelling than reflexive ones, and we get that too.
It is tricky to swap one for the other and we are still working on the right balance point on this.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
If you took the ki pool to no extra attack (leave in the shuriken talent though), use once per day talents with a ki point, and gave tricks the talent treatment so that everyone can spread the love I would be all on board with the ninja.
We typically use alot of evasion and trapfinding isn't bad either but light steps makes trapfinding useless (make it a talent please ;) available at 6th level to rogues and since ninjas are rogues they can take it too)
Just my thoughts. You are doing a great job, and honestly for the first round of playtesting, very impressed because with a few small tweaks the ninja is solid. Samurai is already solid (minus the ronin). Afraid im not that interested in a gunslinger (my inquisitors are my cowboys ;))
Keep up the great work.
I can say the Rogue in my party was very glad to have improved evasion (the group is 15th level) when the rest of the party took 12d10 damage from the dragon's breath weapon and he took none.
Certainly evasion is situational, but a lot of iconic monsters and villains have fireballs and breath weapons. My group routinely drops a fireball on top of the rogue and nearby enemies since the rogue escapes without a scratch.
I can say the Rogue in my party was very glad to have improved evasion (the group is 15th level) when the rest of the party took 12d10 damage from the dragon's breath weapon and he took none.
Certainly evasion is situational, but a lot of iconic monsters and villains have fireballs and breath weapons. My group routinely drops a fireball on top of the rogue and nearby enemies since the rogue escapes without a scratch.
at 15th level you could have a ring of evasion. You could also have something with resistance fire.
Dragons get breath weapons once every few rounds.
Cones are limited range.
They are one of FEW creatures that have reflex saves for damage and the best way to handle that is by spreading out in combat (something most sensible parties do)
being invisible also makes you hard to target.
and 12d10 is on average 60 damage. with IE thats thirty. with a save and no evasion its still thirty (ninja is likely to save with good reflex) that means 30 damage. 30 damage at level 15 is grazing chin hair even to a rogue.
at 15th level you could have a ring of evasion. You could also have something with resistance fire.Dragons get breath weapons once every few rounds.
Cones are limited range.
They are one of FEW creatures that have reflex saves for damage and the best way to handle that is by spreading out in combat (something most sensible parties do)
being invisible also makes you hard to target.
and 12d10 is on average 60 damage. with IE thats thirty. with a save and no evasion its still thirty (ninja is likely to save with good reflex) that means 30 damage. 30 damage at level 15 is grazing chin hair even to a rogue.
That particular fight the dragon started invisible and waited until his minions had softend the group up. So his first active round he appeared and blasted the entire group. The cleric's resist energy was down from a minion's dispel magic. So fighter took 30, cleric took 60, rogue took 0.
The group retreated to regroup and heal. The dragon took the opportunity to heal, invisibility, and teleport behind the group to again breath on the group. cleric took 60, fighter no longer had resist energy and took 60, rogue no longer had resist energy but still evaded and took 0.
I can tell you at 15th level my players still went "that's a lot of d10s" when I started rolling for damage.
That's just one combat. I can't even count the number of times in their career they've been fighting devils where the rogue and fighter are flanking an opponent and the pair is hit with a fireball or similar. I can tell you that evasion/improved evasion are not abilities my group's rogue would choose to give up.
Wait. How is evasion overrated? It gives you a huge edge vs. AoE damage, especially when reflex is your good save (which is usually the case if you have evasion). Improved evasion practically takes AoE damage out of the picture entirely. AoE isn't just blasting wizards either. Traps, explosions, environmental hazards, anything that uses the 1/2 damage on a reflex save mechanic.
Evasion is the most overrated ability in the game! Ki is so much better. Most Ninja tricks are 1 / day free and then you pay fore it...
I'm not saying evasion is bad, it isn't, but it's overrated.
My bard is level 10 now and she is still alive. Evasion would have helped her in some fights but it would not be game breaking. Nice but not great. She too has d8HD and she is still alive...and she only have 14 dex. She has con 12, no favored class bonus to hit point she hasn't improved toughness. So I can't see why evasion is a big deal. Is it good, sure but is it great? No.A fighter as d10 HD it gives the fighter 1 hp more per level and fighters doesn't have evasion and they don't have good reflex saves and usually they don't have a high dex. Or should I demand Bards get evasion too?
Again, most classes don't have evasion and they get by.
How many meaningful encounters do you get per day? 2? 3? tops 4.
A 10 level Ninja with char 12 + a headband of char +4 can cast Improved invisibility 9 times per day as a swift action. That's not infinite but more than enough. Let's say he has to use Improved invisibility in 2 fights. One use is for free, so she spends 1 ki point. She still have 7 ki points left and not all Ninja tricks are based on Ki.
How many times / day does a 10 level rogue use Evasion? Not 9 times per day.
And we also have this nice feat: Extra Ki
Benefit: Your ki pool increases by 2. Special: You can gain Extra Ki multiple times. Its effects stack.
I do want to point out again a Ninja can pick both evasion (trick, ring or multi class) and Impr. Evasion (trick).
Even if a rogue can get a wand of Improved invisibility, that would cost her 21 000 gp, she can't use it as a swift action.
she must have one hand free
she has to fetch it from her bag of holding (move action)
She must succeed in a use magic device check (standard action)
and 12d10 is on average 60 damage. with IE thats thirty. with a save and no evasion its still thirty (ninja is likely to save with good reflex) that means 30 damage. 30 damage at level 15 is grazing chin hair even to a rogue.
+1.
And resist energy caps at level 11 and give you 30 energy prot.Most rogues AND Ninjas will have good refelx saves.
Whats the problem? Not lack of evasion.
I would say take out the freebie Ki powers and make the improved invisiblity have a maintinance cost of 1 point per round would go a long way toward making the Ninja blanced with the classes as a whole. I agree with many however that making it balance specifically with the Rogue and Monk isnt really a great idea however as they are significantly weaker than other classes and I fail to see good logic in repeating mistakes for uniformity.
That particular fight the dragon started invisible and waited until his minions had softend the group up. So his first active round he appeared and blasted the entire group. The cleric's resist energy was down from a minion's dispel magic. So fighter took 30, cleric took 60, rogue took 0.
Oh I see your point the Ninja would likely have had the advanced talent See the Unseen by then. >.>
Also 30 damage to a 15 level fighter? thats like dropping rain in a bucket.
I can tell you at 15th level my players still went "that's a lot of d10s" when I started rolling for damage.
did they laugh at the damage afterwards or before?
That's just one combat. I can't even count the number of times in their career they've been fighting devils where the rogue and fighter are flanking an opponent and the pair is hit with a fireball or similar. I can tell you that evasion/improved evasion are not abilities my group's rogue would choose to give up.
Please read above because you obviously missed my point. The damage he saves is not significant because he is going to save anyways. With resistant energy, forget about it. Also a ninja can select evasion at level 15... so that means basically no damage ever? he will likely never fail a save.
That particular fight the dragon started invisible and waited until his minions had softend the group up. So his first active round he appeared and blasted the entire group. The cleric's resist energy was down from a minion's dispel magic. So fighter took 30, cleric took 60, rogue took 0.Oh I see your point the Ninja would likely have had the advanced talent See the Unseen by then. >.>
Also 30 damage to a 15 level fighter? thats like dropping rain in a bucket.
That drop was the difference between the fighter staying up the next round or being killed by the dragon. The fighter dropped after the dragon tore into him. The rogue being at full health meant he stayed up longer.
I can tell you at 15th level my players still went "that's a lot of d10s" when I started rolling for damage.did they laugh at the damage afterwards or before?
The cleric certainly wasn't laughing.
Please read above because you obviously missed my point. The damage he saves is not significant because he is going to save anyways. With resistant energy, forget about it. Also a ninja can select evasion at level 15... so that means basically no damage ever? he will likely never fail a save.
That's just one combat. I can't even count the number of times in their career they've been fighting devils where the rogue and fighter are flanking an opponent and the pair is hit with a fireball or similar. I can tell you that evasion/improved evasion are not abilities my group's rogue would choose to give up.
You are obviously missing my point. It isn't whether or not a Ninja could also do well in the situation. It is that evasion is a valued part of the rogue. In the life of the campaign it has saved the rogue's life on numerous occasions. My player would not rebuild his character as a ninja, he would prefer to stay a straight rogue. That means that losing evasion is a meaningful trade-off.
The fight with the dragon is just a memorable example because it happened recently. The cleric was doing his best to keep everyone alive. The fighter was using his defender scimitar on full defense to try and tank. The rogue was keeping alive long enough to dish out some good damage. The fight actually ended when the rogue went *snicker-snack* with his vorpal sword. Evasion helped keep him on his feet long enough to do so. It was a good fight with some surprises for my group (which is hard to do these days) and in the end they breathed a sigh of release.
A fighter with a 10 con at level 15 on average would have 87 hit points.
that is almost 3 times the damage dealt.
Not including his con.
not including his favored class (an additional 15 hit points should he choose it)
seriously?
the cleric got hit with a bunch of damage... he also has heal spells.... and resistance spells...?
15 damage as I have already stated to a Rogue is NOTHING at 15th level.
So what I can gather is Evasion=good because it saved rogue from less damage than a capable level 5 fighter with a dagger can do?
ok. you are right.
If you use monsters from the Bestiary, Evasion gets useful specially at high levels, in my experience. But I still prefer Ki Pool, then get Evasion with a magic item or Master Trick.
Anyway, as I explained in this thread (link) :
The Ninja gets a Ring of Evasion, 25000 gps.
The Rogue gets a Ring of Jumping (10000 gps), improves his armor with the Shadow ability +5 to Stealth (+3750 gps) and gets Boots of Speed (12000 gps, Haste 10 rounds per day). Total 25750 gp.
Now, the rogue is using one more slot and the Ninja can also get those items (specially the Boots). Haste gives more bonuses than one attack, but Ki-Pool stacks with Haste. Also note that you can get Jump bonuses and Haste with potions or external spells. Finally a Ninja shouldn't dump his Cha below 10 (Cha 8 would decrease Ki-Points to zero at level 2, Cha 7 would be even worse), actually a Ninja with Cha 10 won't get 10 Ki points till 20th level.My big problem is really a rogue with easy access to Greater Invisibility, but I have to playtest this.
I like this point, so The GP cost for any character to get the abilities is roughly the same.
Now as for the Trick/Talent debate You can't say it will happen, but they could easily turn some of the tricks into talents, and I agree that the one per day for free talents should just have Ki cost immediately. Turn light steps into a talent, and then give the rogue similar ninja talents to a few of the special ninja ones, maybe an even better magic talent, or something and I think this is balanced.
If you use monsters from the Bestiary, Evasion gets useful specially at high levels, in my experience. But I still prefer Ki Pool, then get Evasion with a magic item or Master Trick.
Anyway, as I explained in this thread (link) :
The Ninja gets a Ring of Evasion, 25000 gps.
The Rogue gets a Ring of Jumping (10000 gps), improves his armor with the Shadow ability +5 to Stealth (+3750 gps) and gets Boots of Speed (12000 gps, Haste 10 rounds per day). Total 25750 gp.
Now, the rogue is using one more slot and the Ninja can also get those items (specially the Boots). Haste gives more bonuses than one attack, but Ki-Pool stacks with Haste. Also note that you can get Jump bonuses and Haste with potions or external spells. Finally a Ninja shouldn't dump his Cha below 10 (Cha 8 would decrease Ki-Points to zero at level 2, Cha 7 would be even worse), actually a Ninja with Cha 10 won't get 10 Ki points till 20th level.My big problem is really a rogue with easy access to Greater Invisibility, but I have to playtest this.
I like this point, so The GP cost for any character to get the abilities is roughly the same.
Now as for the Trick/Talent debate You can't say it will happen, but they could easily turn some of the tricks into talents, and I agree that the one per day for free talents should just have Ki cost immediately. Turn light steps into a talent, and then give the rogue similar ninja talents to a few of the special ninja ones, maybe an even better magic talent, or something and I think this is balanced.
One the pricing above doesn't count for the fact that ki pool does other things than whats granted above. The prolonging talents is what makes it good.
and I disagree there should be NO talent trick wall AT ALL. because all it does is limit rogues and boost ninjas. It is just silly to do that. why can't rogues have ninja characteristics? because they aren't oriental? lame excuse.
Then the problem are the talents and how they use Ki points (which is my point), not the Ki-Pool...
I would argue against the boots of haste being for the extra attack, as the extra attack stacks with it, not in lou of it. With sneak attack it is particularly deadly, and the shuriken 2 for 1 is also a bloat.
Hasted level 8 with shuriken talent gets 5 attacks, 4 at his highest base attack and if he so chooses he can burn an additional ki point to get another attack at his highest BAB.
not the same.
Well the monk has the minuses to its attacks and can only do it while flurrying, where the ninja has NO limitations to when it can add attacks.
not to mention the fact ninja's ki pool is more effective than a monk at the moment and they get it sooner.
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Lets discuss ways...
The easiest and best way to fix the Ninja is to do exactly what Jason and the gang asked playtesters to do: play Ninja characters using the rules from the playtest document and provide the results of that play back to Paizo on these messageboards. Jason and the design team can crunch the numbers and work out the kinks. That's what we pay them to do after all. They've already specifically asked the community for playtest test data, and specifically informed everyone that theorycraft and group design isn't useful to them.
-Skeld
The Monk can only get Extra attacks while doing a full attack, same happens with the Ninja.
You are half right.
Monks only get it while using Flurry of blows. ONLY. that means where a rogue can do it whenever he makes his full attack (with no minuses like flurry) he gets an extra attack. That is what makes it good because it is 10% more likely to hit and it doesn't hamper the rest of his attacks. Yes the shuriken one does give a -2 but that is for TWO attacks more and it apparently stacks with the extra from before.
So essentially the monk, which his main combat ability is his many attacks, doesnt get as many attacks as the ninja?
Comparing to the monk IS a fair comparison because that is what BALANCE is, balancing with the other classes.
You don't think the monk is balanced? then make it a better yardstick but as of now its ridiculous to compare the ninja to a wizard or cleric as opposed to rogue and monk.
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What if the ninja ki pool were optional? You'd have to spend a ninja trick on just the ki pool, instead of getting it for free.
Then you could give a similar ki pool to rogues as an Advanced Rogue Talent.
Heck, just make it an Advanced normally, and then say that ninjas get to take it as a normal talent because they're so special.
What if the ninja ki pool were optional? You'd have to spend a ninja trick on just the ki pool, instead of getting it for free.
Then you could give a similar ki pool to rogues as an Advanced Rogue Talent.
Heck, just make it an Advanced normally, and then say that ninjas get to take it as a normal talent because they're so special.
Well I will stand against the whole "give rogues a ki pool" thing
it shouldnt be a taxing trick because everyone would take it.
Besides just take the extra attack away and make it re use talents that are once per day and its good really thats it.
as long as the tricks become talents and this happens the rogue and the ninja can be awesome.
Not every campaign has Buy Your Magic Mart open for buisness.
at 15th level you could have a ring of evasion. You could also have something with resistance fire.
While this is true that makes the rogue even less of a good player, as they need magic items to function magically at all.
While this is true that makes the rogue even less of a good player, as they need magic items to function magically at all.Not every campaign has Buy Your Magic Mart open for buisness.
at 15th level you could have a ring of evasion. You could also have something with resistance fire.
Indeed. Further CR is based on the party being adequately magically equipped for their level.
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While this is true that makes the rogue even less of a good player, as they need magic items to function magically at all.Not every campaign has Buy Your Magic Mart open for buisness.
at 15th level you could have a ring of evasion. You could also have something with resistance fire.
No Magic Mart =\= No Magic Items
It usually just means you don't get to cherry-pick them.
You don't fix this.
First: I'm not upset. Not upset about the Ninja, Monk or rogue. I just saying what I think. If you or Jason or anyone else don't agree. Fine.
If I come off as harsh or rude. My apology. It isn't my intention.
Paizo and half of the people playing this game doesn't consider Rogue or Monk significantly weaker than other classes, some of them would actually consider them overpowered. So what you are failing to see is that there isn't a mistake to repeat.
I don't think that's true.
If we talk damage, The DPR Olympics thread proved:So to sum it up: The Rogue is weaker than most class and the monk suck.
Now, I don't think the rogue is a "weak class". Not as good as fighters when talking DPR, but the rogue isn't a full BAB class so I'm not sure it should be as powerful as full BAB class. It got other things going for it:
Now the monk on the other hand does suck.
I don't want to turn this thread into a "the monk suck thread." So I post this as a spoiler.
Monk.
To sum it up: It doesn't really have a purpose.
To bypass DR cold Iron/silver:
an amulet of Mighty Fists +3 costs 45,000 gp and the amulet takes up a slot.
Fighter, Rogues, Ninjas, etc will use weapons: +3 weapon costs 18,000 gp
To bypass alignment:
An amulet of Mighty Fists +5 costs 125,000 gp and takes up a slot.
Fighter, rogues, Ninjas, etc will use weapons: +5 weapon costs 50,000 gp
Are we having fun yet?
A fighter choosing the unarmed path will have less of a problem. He can pick penetrating strike, Greater Penetrating Strike. Greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization, weapon training, etc. And the fighter can actually use power attack and not miss.
The fighter can use a full plate and amulet of nat. armor to boosts its AC. And anyone using armor may add special abilities to it. He can boost its saves picking feats like iron will and greater iron will, etc. He got the feats to spare.
The monk as a great speed but when he moves he can only use one attack. So that don't help him. At higher levels his attack bonus when using BAB is worse than his attack bonus when using flurry.
AC? a dex monk will have a good AC but a dex fighter will have better.
Melee druid? It got healing and he got spells to boost him and his attacks.
In 3.x the monk had diplomacy as a class skill and his Ki magic/ lawful/adamantine was always on. He didn't need any point in a pool to have them active so the new pool mechanics is actually a nerf if we talking bypassing DR.
The Barbarian and monk needed fixing. The APG fixed the Barbarian, but not the monk. And I still have some Issues with the bard, but that's just me I guess. The monk however, that's not just me.
I can go on but If you don't agree with me now, you probably never will. That's fine, we don't have to agree :-)
wait: But the Monk does however has evasion ;-)
Now monks and traps isn't really a problem. Nor is fighters and traps. let's talk traps.
Wait. How is evasion overrated? It gives you a huge edge vs. AoE damage, especially when reflex is your good save (which is usually the case if you have evasion). Improved evasion practically takes AoE damage out of the picture entirely. AoE isn't just blasting wizards either. Traps, explosions, environmental hazards, anything that uses the 1/2 damage on a reflex save mechanic.
So traps are a big deal?
Traps that calls for a reflex saves have never been a problem. If you fail your save you burn your fingers and then you get some healing. The problem is traps that calls for a fort or will saves and evasion is useless vs. those traps. environmental hazards? They might as well cal for a fort save. If they do, evasion won't help. If they call for a reflex saves they are no big deal. Especially if you are a Ninja with Light Steps and Feather Fall or Forgotten Trick.Not every campaign has Buy Your Magic Mart open for buisness.
at 15th level you could have a ring of evasion. You could also have something with resistance fire.
Denying a level 15 character an item worth 25 000 gp is like denying a 5:th level char a +1 sword. It's plain stupid and mean....unless your DM is running a low fantasy campaign. If your DM is running a low fantasy campaign he/she will/should tell you so. And you will/should adapt.
This is a level based game. At level 15 you can get stuff a level 5 character or level 10 character can't.
At level 3 you lucky if you can get to talk to the king.
At level 15 the king is lucky if he can't talk to you.
At level 15 you have breakfast with the king, lunch with an angel (or devil) and supper with a God or arch angel.
A level 15 character doesn't need to go to Magic Mart. They can teleport to any city they want to or plane shift and meet a God.
Also, if your DM runs a "blast them" campaign you're bound to start looking for a ring of evocation much sooner than level 15.
That or you pick evasion as a ninja trick at level 10, 12 or 14,
or you get a wand of resist energy,
or you multi class and take 2 levels shadowdancer or 2 levels monk,
or you get some energy resistance added to your armor,
or someone in the party makes the ring for you,
or you teleport to another city, country or another world and get the ring,
or, or, or.
Like it or not, this is a level based game. At level 15 you will have items worth 200 000 - 300 000 gp.
Hey there everybody,
No worries on the banter about evasion. We understand that evasion, just like trapfinding, is entirely based upon the whims of the GM, but so much in this game is that we have to assume, that all things being equal, such things do occur with some frequency. That said, proactive abilities are always going to be more compelling than reflexive ones, and we get that too.
It is tricky to swap one for the other and we are still working on the right balance point on this.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
OK. Cool.
I guess you know improved invisibilty et.c XXX times per day is better than evasion and waiting for a blast. ;-)
Doesn't ki strike bypass DR? According to the SRD alignment [Lawful] is equal to +5 and +3 beats silver and cold iron so... or is that a violation of logic. Because if that was true the unarmed melee class could stay unarmed and still kick ass. It's not like letting a high level monk Ki Strike to beat DR would break the game. Well it would make the monk useful and free up some cash for...umm...monk stuff.
Mr. Fishy would spend the extra cash on kickass special effects and a stunt double. Like thunder stones boots so when Mr. Fishy kicks a monster in the face there is a thunder clap. Mr. Fishy would also purchase a rainbow to shoot out of Mr. Fishy ass when he jumps.
Mr. Fishy would get a magic pen to autograph his victims so the ink would show up on their soul. So if you travel to the outer planes and see a monster with MR. FISHY WAS HERE written on his face. You'll known Mr. Fishy is playing a monk. A Tier Fishy Monk.
Doesn't ki strike bypass DR? According to the SRD alignment [Lawful] is equal to +5 and +3 beats silver and cold iron so... or is that a violation of logic.
That is a violation of logic, so Fish needs to read again or we will force Fish to sing every song from the "Misplaced Childhood" album ;-)
Chiming in a little belatedly... I think evasion is really overrated. I've played a lot of rogues, and sure, it's fun when everyone else takes minor damage and you take none, but in the grand scheme of things I don't think it's an especially powerful ability.
It's not worthless, but it's telling to me that I've never actually seen a PC buy or craft a Ring of Evasion.
To some degree this is a chicken and the egg problem; I don't think blasting has been especially effective since at least 3.0, and if blasting isn't worth doing, then it follows that an anti-blasting ability doesn't have that much value.
Doesn't ki strike bypass DR? According to the SRD alignment [Lawful] is equal to +5 and +3 beats silver and cold iron so... or is that a violation of logic. Because if that was true the unarmed melee class could stay unarmed and still kick ass. It's not like letting a high level monk Ki Strike to beat DR would break the game. Well it would make the monk useful and free up some cash for...umm...monk stuff.
Mr. Fishy would spend the extra cash on kickass special effects and a stunt double. Like thunder stones boots so when Mr. Fishy kicks a monster in the face there is a thunder clap. Mr. Fishy would also purchase a rainbow to shoot out of Mr. Fishy ass when he jumps.
Mr. Fishy would get a magic pen to autograph his victims so the ink would show up on their soul. So if you travel to the outer planes and see a monster with MR. FISHY WAS HERE written on his face. You'll known Mr. Fishy is playing a monk. A Tier Fishy Monk.
What you may be missing, Mr Fishy, is that said monk may be able to bypass the DR with Ki strike but he doesn't get the +5 to hit/damage that said weapon would also provide, at least not with out an amulet that costs about twice as much as the associated enhancement bonus. However those boots are great, and I hope they were submitted to the RPGSS :D
SO...
As for ninjas, some toning down is reported to be in the works. Some thoughts on what they could do:
• Move Shadow Clones to an advanced talent. Its more miss chance that invisibility and usually lasts for an encounter. Shadow Double I might move down to a normal talent, and take away the running thing or make it an associated trick with Shadow Double as a prereq, so its just one extra double providing one 50% miss chance until struck.
• Reduce Vanishing trick to 1 round. 1 round is plenty to get from one area of cover/concealment to another, to sneak past a guard, to get a surprise attack, to make an escape, to buy the ninja 1 round of safety in a difficult combat. Invisible Blades could stay essentially the same, as it would increase the duration from 1 round to 10+. This is definitely an ability that should lose its "free use".
• Make Light Steps a ninja trick that costs 1 ki, and lasts for 1 round (or one full round action as described in the ability)
• For the next playtest, I would take away the 1 free use per day of many Ki powers and see whether playtesters feel like the ninja is running out of ki too much. There are some powers I think might be better balanced without the free use and others that might be on more of an even keel if they keep the free use. That said a good ninja should always keep 1 ki so they can execute an escape.
• Sudden Disguise might need to be less sudden. I haven't seen it used in any playtests so far, perhaps because they are all combats. As it is, this SLA is somewhat more useful than its associated spell because its a swift action. It seems counter balanced by its sorter duration. But if we are going by the idea that a ninja trick should not be quite as good as a 1st level spell, perhaps Sudden Disguise might need to be less "sudden", and given a standard action to use. This mostly means using it while in stealth which is ok by me. Master Disguise seems alright to me, even with a standard action to use (see Lord Gemma in ninja scroll, who I assume is the inspiration of this feature. It takes him aproximately 3 seconds to transform while laughing his evil laugh).
• Pressure Points is exploitable, somewhat, especially with Invisible Blades. Just pile on the attacks with Rapid Shot, TWF, Flurry of Stars, a haste spell, plus whatever iterative attacks you have, and do it from an area of total darkness on an opponent carrying a torch. PLUS you get sneak attack damage as well. It should cost 1 die of sneak attack damage per attack to add in the ability damage.
You could also allow a savingthrow, perhaps a will save. Fort save might make it useless against beefy opponents on whom it would be used as a defensive measure. High will save opponents are often weak in the strength department, so pressure points could essentially cripple them too fast if it was a fort save. You might make add +1 to DC for each pressure point attempt made in the round, so that only ONE save is rolled. It could take the place of the attribute bonus used in most DCs. A Crippling Strike upgrade might be added into the advanced talents.
A note on Assassinate. As an advanced trick, I think its fairly balanced. I haven't seen it used in playtesting, but its similar to an ability that a regular old rogue/assassin gets at level 6. Its also something that I think rogues should get as an advanced talent, if they don't want to multiclass.
There are some issues I have with it though. Assassins take 3 rounds to prepare and the ninja takes 1. It can't be used on flanked opponents. And it can only be used on any given opponent once per day (and hopefully that is all you need). The first one is relatively moot since both assassins and ninjas often use this ability to start combat, where they are the aggressors. The second two seem designed to tone down assassinate so as make sure its not out pacing other advanced tricks. Jason B. has pointed to the no flanking as balance factor in an earlier thread. The third one bothers me because its a per day cap of sorts, on an extraordinary ability. Again a balancing device. I am only against it because it seems slightly arbitrary IMHO.
Part of the problem I have is this line on both abilities: "The death attack/assassinte fails if the target detects the assassin/ninja or recognizes the assassin/ninja as an enemy". This line, depending on how you read it makes both abilities unusable after the surprise round. I believe that it is assumed that an assassin attacks with a death attack, hides in plain sight and then makes another death attack in 3 rounds. But then there is the recognize bit. Can you recognize an enemy even if you can't see them? Does it mean that you recognize that you are in mortal danger? Or does it just mean that if you can see an assassin he can't death attack you (opening the door to countless death attack attempts as long as the assassin can disappear). My bet is that a lot of people play the latter way. But some people play the former way.
Some clarification of this point would help clear up how these two abilities can be exploited, and why the prep time matters. A ninja who can vanish, wait a round, and then assassinate is actually more of a threat, I'd wager, than an assassin who has to bide his time. If merely knowing you are under threat from an invisible opponent is enough to deny both abilities, however, then much of the balancing mechanics used to differentiate assassinate from death attack are moot, as they both could only be used in the surprise round.
In either case I suggest the following. Make both abilities the same (with obviously Charisma for Assassinate's DC). Only allow Assassinate to work in a surprise round of a combat. That will make sure that its only an opening move. Assassins can of course continue to do the disappearing death attack dance at their leisure. Ninjas who want to be able to jump into combat at a later moment can take the surprise attack rogue talent. You might even make it the prereq to assassinate by converting it to a bonafide ninja trick, so that it costs two tricks to get what assassins get for 1 class feature. There is also the added benefit of not having to know both version of these features and how they differ, cutting down on confusion (better that they differ in one way, than in three or more).
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Just as a quick note, this is not a place where we are going to talk about changing the rogue. The design team feels pretty strongly that the rogue works just fine as it currently stands. The ninja on the other hand, is probably a bit more powerful and we are looking into ways of correcting that.
One other note, I think many folks are seriously under estimating the value of evasion. That reduction in damaging effects adds a great deal to the rogue's survivability against a number of foes and scenarios. Is it the same value as the ki mechanic as it currently stands... that is something we are still looking into.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I'm sorry, I really am; I respect Piazo and Pathfinder, I've had a subscription to Dragon and Dungeon since 2003, I'm subscribed to everything you'll let me subscribe to. I love your work, I love your company, I love your game.
you are completely wrong on this point.
Rogues (and also Monks) tend to contribute very little to most encounters, whether they be combat, exploration, trap, or social based.
I've got four players that favor Rogues and Monks in the three gaming groups I tend to play with, and, despite thier best efforts and love of the classes, they are continually frustrated by thier inability to contribute in any meaningful way.
Traps are a joke, and should not count at all when factoring a Rogues usefulness to the party. They are specialized encounters that a party without a Rogue will simply soak, losing X amount of channeling / wand charges.
If the party does have a Rogue, it's an encounter that no one but the Rogue can participate in. It's like having these annoying 5 minute solo adventures that we can't skip or process outside of our dedicated gaming time, and they happen all the time.
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Rogues and Monks are hindered by their MAD (Multiple Ability score Dependency), which forces them to sacrifice something.
Strength - dumping Strength, as a physical-damage dealing class, means that the class does not do anything useful in combat. The DPR olympics have proved this - even a Dex-based Two-Weapon Fighting buzzsaw Rogue can't match what a power-attacking Strength based half-orc Rogue can do, given the "can only take a five foot step and must always have flanking" limitation the Two-Weapon Fighter is under.
Dexterity - dumping Dexterity is, sadly, shockingly viable. Rogues and Monks still don't do as well as the combat classes, but they are heavily skill based and have lots of tricks, so it more or less works out. Also, since dumping dex for strength means they aren't cripplingly dependent on full-round attacks to do decent damage, they can actually afford to take advantage of their movement-based abilities (skills, bonus feats, etc).
But here's the thing - a Rogue or Monk with a Strength of 18 and a Dex of 8 isn't a Rogue or Monk, they are a very confused fighter.
Constitution - dumping con, as a lightly armored, moderate hit point, melee-based class that wants to but is punished mechanically for having a good dex is a terrible idea.
Intelligence - dumping int, as a skill based class, isn't usually a great idea, though it can work depending on the concept. That said, a high int isn't all that important either.
Wisdom - Rogues have low will saves and, as a skill-based class (social, scout, trap, etc), tend to be popular targets for will-based spells. It's also key for perception and other important skills. It's not a vital as other stats, but it's not something Rogues can ignore. Unless they are channeling Kender, which is a valid concept.
Monks should be obvious here.
Charisma - the only stat that neither class needs mechanically. A low cha fits with most Monk concepts as well.
Rogues, on the other hand, feel very odd with low cha; unless the character is going for a "thug" sort of approach (in which case low dex and high str work well).
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From a Role-playing perceptive, Rogues are supposed to be graceful, dashing, witty, and clever; they get themselves and their friends into trouble just as often as they get them out if it. They are the iconic "Chaotic Good" - free-spirited and independent rapscallions, but loyal to their friends and ultimately nice guys.
Rogues in Pathfinder do not play this way. At All. The class is not okay. A talent that gives them Weapon Finesse, Improved Feint, and Agile Maneuvers, plus the ability to add dex to damage when wielding a single one-handed weapon, would go a long way to helping out. If evasion and trapfinding are really so valuable, I'd trade both in a heartbeat just to get the above talent on my list.
Please, help the Rogue out.
Traps are a joke, and should not count at all when factoring a Rogues usefulness to the party. They are specialized encounters that a party without a Rogue will simply soak, losing X amount of channeling / wand charges.
If the party does have a Rogue, it's an encounter that no one but the Rogue can participate in. It's like having these annoying 5 minute solo adventures that we can't skip or process outside of our dedicated gaming time, and they happen all the time.
I think our definitions of 'meaningful contribution' differ. To me, it is meaningful to save the party from expending resources. Its also part of what makes a rogue fun to be able to warn the party, and say "I got this ..."