kevin_video wrote:

We've currently got a half-succubus who'll eventually become a full one thanks to the Necromancers of the Northwest and their Succubus base class.

OT but which book/PDF is this racial class found in?

The succubus racial class was actually published for free over on the Necromancers of the Northwest website.

...and ironically, it's "mount week" for their themed articles. ;-D

I'm setting up a party-vs-party afternoon with a friend's Jade Regent party. I know, the geography doesn't match, but as long as the players don't know that, all they'll see is there's a temple full of bad guys that needs defending / cleaning out (depending on which side they're on)
Just thinking of the possibilities makes me giggle.

The PbP I'm running I've included a devil in (a Gaav depowered to roughly 1st level equivalent) and will be providing opportunities for him to be upgraded at certain points in the story.

"You mortals talkin' about me?"

The lore and mechanics have clashed slightly (VoV has made me a Native Outsider, which we don't currently have a good explanation for), but other than that I'm enjoying myself :)

Peanuts

Eric Hinkle wrote:

kevin_video wrote:

We've currently got a half-succubus who'll eventually become a full one thanks to the Necromancers of the Northwest and their Succubus base class.

OT but which book/PDF is this racial class found in?

The succubus racial class was actually published for free over on the Necromancers of the Northwest website.

...and ironically, it's "mount week" for their themed articles. ;-D

Thanks for that link!

Hello. Just stumbled over this fine product. Will there be a print version?

Hello. Just stumbled over this fine product. Will there be a print version?

Hey, thanks for the kind words and your interest in "Way of the Wicked".

There is already a POD print version available at DriveThruRPG. "Book One: Knot of Thorns" is available here. "Book Two: Call Forth Darkness" is available here. And Book 3 will be available at the end of the month.

Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games

But, I would say that living in Australia is its own reward. I visited there in '99 and absolutely fell in love with the country. I went to the WorldCon in Melbourne, scuba dived the Great Barrier Reef and spent almost two weeks in Tasmania.

Heh, I always enjoy seeing my little state featured in strange places. I'm part of a group in Tasmania who've just started your first book and absolutely loving it.

Short Bearded One,

I'm glad to hear you and your group are enjoying "Way of the Wicked". Just finished the Nine Lessons, eh? I have a question for you...

And say hello to Tasmania for me. I'll be back!

Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games

My guess is...Al Capone's Gold.

I guess nobody here remembers this. I guess I am just getting too old. I started buying and playing D&D back in 1979.

Tasmania says hi :)

We had a lucky break when it came to Sir Balin...

So a little unorthodox all in all, but surely we should get extra evil points? :P

PathfinderFan64 wrote:

My guess is...Al Capone's Gold.

I guess nobody here remembers this. I guess I am just getting too old. I started buying and playing D&D back in 1979.

I remember just how much of a big bust it was. Two hours of buildup and in the end we get an empty room!

Oh, and Grumblejack survived. Our Barbarian wants to make him a ccohort :)

PathfinderFan64 wrote:

PathfinderFan64 wrote:

My guess is...Al Capone's Gold.

I guess nobody here remembers this. I guess I am just getting too old. I started buying and playing D&D back in 1979.

I remember just how much of a big bust it was. Two hours of buildup and in the end we get an empty room!

My wife and me watched that live. We and the whole country were not happy. I didn't think anyone here was old enough to remember that.

PathfinderFan64,

Fear not. This board is littered with old gamers. Myself, I started playing D&D via the basic set in 1980.

And though I remember the snooze-fest that was Al Capone's vault, I can only promise you that there is something more interesting inside the vault guarded by the Angels in Iron.

Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games

Short Bearded One,

That is awesome. It is exactly because of weird and unorthodox ways of solving problems such as this, that I love roleplaying.

In college, there was a quote that floated around gaming circles I was involved with referencing a very strange little encounter: "Sure anybody could kill Grendel. We got it a girl friend."

Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games

Just posted a review.

This module is in my "I really hope I get to run this someday" pile. And, well, I really hope I get to run this someday.

cheers,

Doug M.

Thanks for the review, Doug!

And thanks for the kind words and thanks for reviewing our product. I appreciate this sort of feedback immensely and I'm glad you are pleased with "Way of the Wicked".

Book Three is close!

Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games

I've never been more repelled/intrigued by a module. While I don't think I could handle player's engaging in human/demi-human sacrifice, everything else seems so darn cool and well written. I'll definitely pick this up for the reading alone.

Devastation Bob,

Yes, "Call Forth Darkness" does require the PCs to commit human sacrifice to complete the main plot.

BUT...it is not graphically described nor is it dwelt upon. Much like Darth Vader committed genocide and torture in Episode IV, it is true that those elements exist but largely in the background. After all, by the terms of the Compatibility License we are allowed to publish nothing "adult" or offensive to minors. And "Call Forth Darkness" is definitely PG-13 level villainy at worst.

And if that is still too much, you could substitute the human sacrifice for merely requiring a small amount of blood from your victims.

What the adventure dwells upon is owning your own dungeon and defending it against largely heroic adventurers who dare defy you and want to stop your wicked scheme.

"Way of the Wicked" isabout playing pulp black-hat villains, not dwelling upon the true nature and depths of evil.

And, of course, about having fun being wicked with you friends.

Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games

I'm actually OK with the human sacrifice. It definitely ramps up the villainy -- you guys are no longer in the minor leagues of evil. It's a neat fit for the theme of the book; you're trying to summon a hideous supernatural force of evil, after all. And I would expect it to give more opportunities for roleplaying; who's a little squicked out, and who jumps forward to grab the knife?

But -- as Gary points out -- you can cut or amend it without significantly affecting the plot.

Doug M.

In terms of yuck gross-out evil, I'd be more worried about the NPCs who fall into PC hands. There will be a lot of NPCs attacking that dungeon, after all, and not all of them will get killed in battle. Some of the NPCs are hardcases, but some are not. (And some are female and attractive. My players are mostly pretty grown-up, but I could imagine showing them the picture of the enemy party and having someone yell, "Hey -- she looks hot! Let's make sure we take her alive!")

Also, the dungeon comes pre-equipped with a torture chamber. Which is totally plausible, and thematically appropriate. But "graphic descriptions of rape and torture" are right up there with "PvP" as a reason not to run or play evil parties. I'm totally down with running or playing pulp villainy; I'm not interested in a session of squick-out or More Than We Really Wanted To Know About Bob Who Plays The Fighter.

There are ways around this, of course. Gary has given us some of them already, on this forum and in Book One. The Darth Vader cutscene is a very useful tool! Gary gave one example of how to use it on this thread, and I think that's well taken.

I think there's another one that Gary hasn't discussed much, and that's the Dungeon Mistress solution. If you remember the classic video game Dungeon Keeper -- which is, thematically, the direct ancestor of this module -- you could put a torture chamber in your dungeon. But you didn't run it yourself. No, you attracted a creature called a Dungeon Mistress (who looked exactly as you'd think, black leather and whip and all), and /she/ ran the torture chamber for you. This added a certain distance that allowed the game to continue without you the gamer having to turn the rack or heat the irons. Similarly, I think there are some acts of evil that can be left to allies or minions. If the PCs want to use the torture chamber, there are several creatures in the dungeon who could take over the job of Chief Torturer.

This sort of thing is pretty context-sensitive, of course, and will vary from group to group. The main thing is to have the tools to deal with it, so that it stays fun rather than gross or More Than We Wanted, etc. I think Gary has done a pretty good job providing those tools; the rest is up to us.

Doug M.

On the torture angle, there is an example from pulp fantasy as provided by the Mathias "I swear I'm not Solomon Kane!" Thulman books . His cohort Streng is his torturer. And he does his job at several points through the Witch Hunter/Finder/Killer books. However, there is not a great deal of focus on the process. More time is spent on the lead in "do this or we'll torture you" and on the results "now that you've been tortured are you ready to talk?" I'd recommend a similar focus from PC's.

For GM's that are worried about the "on screen" actions of their players should be able to discuss it beforehand out of character. A simple "no hitting below the belt" style ground rule before diving into the action. As long as the players are on board with their actions or those of their minions being handled off screen there's really not much danger of things getting all Saw or Human Centipede on you.

Then there are groups that will take this module over the river and through the woods to the blackest depths of depravity. Like an episode of Robot Chicken or Cupcake Wars.

Takes all kinds :-)

I think you have it right, Herbo. Roleplay the lead in. Roll some dice. Skip to the results. What happened in the middle?

Well...nothing nice.

Ultimately, it is a matter of a group having clearly stated explanations of where the lines are.

Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games

I'm actually OK with the human sacrifice. It definitely ramps up the villainy -- you guys are no longer in the minor leagues of evil. It's a neat fit for the theme of the book; you're trying to summon a hideous supernatural force of evil, after all. And I would expect it to give more opportunities for roleplaying; who's a little squicked out, and who jumps forward to grab the knife?

I have to agree with this; it really does help to establish that you're playing a villain.

And no offense to anyone here, but I have to wonder why establishing that your (evil) PCs are willing to engage in human sacrifice and use torture to deal with their enemies is any worse than the usual murder and mayhem good and neutral PCs engage in.

And something else actually related to the book proper I've been wondering about --

Eric,

The answer to your spoilery question is, no surprise, a ...

Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games

Eric,

The answer to your spoilery question is, no surprise, a ...
** spoiler omitted **

Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games

Ah, thanks very much. I missed it in the middle of everything there was to read about

A few more questions here:

Did I miss it, or does the whole 'make the dungeon a deathtrap' aspect that you get XP for not actually make things any more difficult for invading adventurers? I figured on setting up something like a % chance for any adventurers you meet inside the Horn to be down in hit points and other expendable assets when encountered. I.e., used their spells, drank some healing potions, and the like.

Also, can we get any hints on how big the Abbey of Saint Cynthia-Celeste is?

Also, though this is really far more of a rule question than anything else --

Eric Hinkle,

Rather than include a complex system, I think you have the right of it. If the PCs dungeon is a death trap, have the adventures they fight be down a few spells and potions and little banged up. If your feeling particularly industrious, between sessions you could run a little solo adventure (NPC adventures vs. the PC dungeon) to determine exactly how banged up.

The Abbey of Saint Cynthia-Celeste is thrown is a side-quest plot hook for you to develop or ignore at your leisure. The answer to how big or challenging the Abbey should be is "Challenging enough to make a good sidequest for your PCs."

As as special undead go, I believe you can do this with animate dead as long as you follow the HD restriction. The zombie template is probably also of use. The trick is making sure these undead don't overshadow other minions and the PCs themselves.

But an undead treant or dragon as a minion? That is all kinds of awesome.

Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games

Thank you for those words of wisdom, Mister McBride.

Bruce,

This is probably best relegated to spoiler-land...

** spoiler omitted **

Hope that helps,
Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games

Hmm, reading about the Nessian hell-hounds makes me curious: will there be a way in the AP to

Thank you for those words of wisdom, Mister McBride.

No problem and thank you for taking time to write a review.

To answer your question, no, there is no way currently planned to upgrade the nightmare. Thought it wouldn't be that hard to add.

Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games

As as special undead go, I believe you can do this with animate dead as long as you follow the HD restriction. The zombie template is probably also of use. The trick is making sure these undead don't overshadow other minions and the PCs themselves.

But an undead treant or dragon as a minion? That is all kinds of awesome.

Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games

In a certain Paizo Adventure Path I had a Zombie Froghemoth minion :p Not an evil character though, just a nutty guy who messed around with spirits.

Gary,

Finally, is there a spell placed on Saint Cynthia-Celeste so that evil doers can't animate her?

Oh, and surgery went well. I'm currently in recovery.

Gary,

** spoiler omitted **

Finally, is there a spell placed on Saint Cynthia-Celeste so that evil doers can't animate her?

Oh, and surgery went well. I'm currently in recovery.

I was probably going to use the temple map from Masks of the Living God, its got a good feel to it.

I was probably going to use the temple map from Masks of the Living God, its got a good feel to it.

Yeah, that's not bad.

Kevin,

As far as animating the corpse of the saint, I like where this is going. I suppose you could say that Mitra makes raising his saints impossible, but that doesn't sound like much fun. I say ... let it work!

Hope that helps,
Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games

Gary Have you given any thought to making side quests for each book? Maybe sell them as an optional supplement. There seems to be some demand for them.

re: torture, I recommend this approach:
in another adventure, one of my players decided to torture a prison guard for information - I took that player into another room and gave him the information he 'requested' and asked him not to tell anyone what he'd done to the guard to get this information. "what happens in the torture room, stays in the torture room".
The rest of the party remained at the table, and they could only imagine what might happen in the torture chamber. And of course, they did imagine quite a lot.
As the torturing character returned and simply blurted out the information he was looking for, he gained great respect from the other characters and I didn't have to degrade myself with pulp fiction. Win-win.

Kevin,

** spoiler omitted **

As far as animating the corpse of the saint, I like where this is going. I suppose you could say that Mitra makes raising his saints impossible, but that doesn't sound like much fun. I say ... let it work!

Hope that helps,
Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games

If it were me, I'd run it as you work the spell, and the body rises as a mindless zombie... and the saint herself shows up as the celestial she's risen to become, in full fury and leading to a battle right then and there.

But if you win, you can take the gear from the dead celestial!

Gary Have you given any thought to making side quests for each book? Maybe sell them as an optional supplement. There seems to be some demand for them.

I heartily second this.

PathfinderFan64 wrote:

Gary Have you given any thought to making side quests for each book? Maybe sell them as an optional supplement. There seems to be some demand for them.

I heartily second this.

I third this.

@Eric: I only see one problem with fighting a celestial version of Celeste, and it's that her mortal form took on an ice devil (CR 13) and won (even if she did die). Fighting a celestial version of that would be nearly on par with impossible.

@Gary: Thanks for the answer, but the only problem with the Seeker tower is that while it's five floors, they never actually show you the interior design.

Eric Hinkle wrote:

PathfinderFan64 wrote:

Gary Have you given any thought to making side quests for each book? Maybe sell them as an optional supplement. There seems to be some demand for them.

I heartily second this.

I third this.

@Eric: I only see one problem with fighting a celestial version of Celeste, and it's that her mortal form took on an ice devil (CR 13) and won (even if she did die). Fighting a celestial version of that would be nearly on par with impossible.

Maybe it's just a celestial bound to protect her resting place? I have to think that a Mitran saint is going to have some major protections set on her resting place.

But even so, robbing that frost glaive from the abbey and then re-animating the saint's body and sending it shambling out into the streets to cause mayhem whilst you make your escape is the kind of thing a properly cheeky villain does! Starting rumors in Farholde afterwards that the nuns are into necromantic rituals and are bringing the wrath of the gods down on everyone's heads would be amusing too, not to mention helpful in keeping one of your enemies preoccupied.

Wow, I fell behind on answering a few questions here. I apologize, I've been completely swept up in finishing Book Three.

An optional supplement of sidequests is not beyond the realm of possibility if there is sufficient demand. But it will definitely not be something we work on until "Way of the Wicked" is itself complete.

Eric,

Wow. I love the idea of the shambling St. Cynthia-Celeste. Sounds like a hoot.

Yes, I agree a celestial guardian is not unwarranted. Although I would not your PCs are going to get to fight OODLES of celestials in book three.

Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games

Eric,

** spoiler omitted **

Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games

Just a quick question. I probably missed it, but when exactly

Fire Mountain Games wrote:

Eric,

** spoiler omitted **

Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games

Just a quick question. I probably missed it, but when exactly

** spoiler omitted **

DSRMT wrote:

Fire Mountain Games wrote:

Eric,

** spoiler omitted **

Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games

Just a quick question. I probably missed it, but when exactly

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

That! would be why I haven't seen it yet. Thank you good sir!

That! would be why I haven't seen it yet. Thank you good sir!

No problem.

But I made a small mistake

DSRMT wrote:

That! would be why I haven't seen it yet. Thank you good sir!

No problem.

But I made a small mistake** spoiler omitted **

Not just a mental mistake. It switches back from Thrane to Thorn to Thrane in the meeting write up too.

Not just a mental mistake. It switches back from Thrane to Thorn to Thrane in the meeting write up too.

D'oh! More for the errata pile.

Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games