Dorje Sylas |
Just getting back into Pathfinder after a hiatus...
And the Scorpion Whip for Ultimate Combat returns for more failure. Paizo, did you not get the rather heavy hint that is was a bad design choice to take. It's nonsensical and contradicts itself.
You didn't do anything to solve the issue of what the "if you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip as a whip," part where Scorpion Whip is a light weapon and a Whip is One-handed.
You had a viable, working weapon in the Adventures Armory version of the Scorpion Whip. It wasn't over powered. It was doing basically the same job as throwing Daggers at the cost an exotic weapon proficiency for most classes. Plus it didn't have odd wording. If you were concerned about "balance" it would have been better just to bump the cost up.
Fail, fail, fail. You don't even let Exotic Weapon Proficiency ( Whip ) cover both your totally neutered "performance" weapon and the normal whip.
An Exotic 1d4 light melee weapon with only performance as it's specially ability is not acceptable. The Gladius does a better job then hack job you pulled on the poor scorpion whip.
DeathQuaker RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |
Dorje, what is the problem, exactly? I get that there is a discrepancy, and that some clarification could be in order, but exactly where? Mind I'm not arguing with you, per se, although I'm trying to get past the anger (which I don't know what that's about as I am not familiar with prior versions) to what really needs clarification and so on.
Let's see...
With the light weapon vs normal weapon -- I'm reading that as you can wield a scorpion whip in the off hand without extra penalty, but a whip you cannot. You CAN wield, I guess, a whip in two hands to deal extra damage, but a scorpion whip you cannot (fair enough). Both weapons are actually finessable, so that's not an issue.
I would assume that proficiency in one or another does not change what kind of weapon it is, and thus does not affect the items I described above.
So let's see what else is going on.
If you are proficient in scorpion whip, it works as written.
If you are proficient in whip, but not scorpion whip, you can use it as a whip -- that it deals nonlethal damage, I guess. Does it mean you can also use the scorpion whip as a trip, disarm, and reach weapon? I would assume in this case that the scorpion whip itself is still treated as a light weapon. This would actually be an advantage if you wanted to wield a whip in the off hand -- wield a scorpion whip instead. You won't get the scorpion whip's advantages (lethal damage and bonus to performance combat), but you'd get an off-hand whip which would actually suit some concepts.
And I guess if you are proficient in both whip AND scorpion whip--does that mean you can use the scorpion whip to deal either lethal or nonlethal damage, as well as a trip, disarm, reach, and performance weapon? Does require 2 proficiency feats, but that is a lot all in combination.
Kreniigh |
If you explained what you liked better about the other one, we might be able to answer what you're asking.
The tables in UE presuppose that the exact power level (lesser/greater, minor/medium/major) and slot of the item you want to generate randomly have already been determined. This works fine if you're using the horde tables, or you have a pretty specific idea of what you want the party to find.
However, if you want to randomly determine what kind of magic item it is -- if you don't have it in mind that it should be a weapon, or a wand -- there's nothing in UE to do that. The only tables that do that are 15-2 in the Core Rules, or 5-2 in the GMG if you reroll until you get something magical. But those tables have no connection to the tables in UE, as they do not result in a slot, or a lesser/greater designation.
What's needed is a table similar to CRB 15-2, but with results that send you directly to the proper tables in UE. I.e., I need a minor magic item, either as a reward for the party, or to fill a settlement item slot, so I roll on the table, and my result is a lesser minor head slot, or a greater minor potion, or a lesser minor weapon, etc.
I really like UE otherwise. I may have to end up creating my own "Start Here" table, but so much thought and effort has gone into the rewards system in Pathfinder that I don't feel that I could do as good or balanced a job of it.
Sean K Reynolds Designer, RPG Superstar Judge |
However, if you want to randomly determine what kind of magic item it is -- if you don't have it in mind that it should be a weapon, or a wand -- there's nothing in UE to do that.
Fair enough... but that's because the random treasure tables in the Core Rulebook are horrendously flawed.
Roll a random minor armor? The cheapest one is 1,150 gp (for a +1 armor), appropriate for a CR 4 hoard, the most expensive is 16,150 gp (for a +1 shadow armor), appropriate for a CR 14 or 15 award.
Roll a random minor ring? Ranges from 2,000 gp to 15,000 gp, which is CR 6 to CR 14 treasure award. (And even if you rule out the top 25% of that category, that's still capping at 8,000 gp, a CR 11 award).
Roll a random medium rod? 3,000 gp to 35,000 gp, which is a CR 7 on the low end or CR 17 on the high end. (Dropping the top 25% puts you at 13,000 gp, CR 13 or 14.)
Roll a random medium staff? 17,600 gp to 62,000 gp, which is CR 15 to CR 20 (dropping the top 25% is 29,600 gp, which is CR 16 or 17.)
Roll a random minor wondrous item? Low end is 50 gp, high end is 8,000 gp, CR ... well, less than CR 1, up to CR 14. (Dropping top 25% gets you 4,900 gp, CR 9.)
Roll a random medium wondrous item? Low 8,000 gp (CR 14), high 27,500 gp (CR 16). Dropping the top 25% gets you 21,000 gp, which is CR 15 or 16.
Random major wondrous item? Nearly half of them are worth more than a CR 20 treasure award.
So all of the random magic item tables in the Core Rulebook are completely useless for determining an appropriate treasure for PCs of level X, because there's no way to guarantee the result is an appropriate treasure award for an encounter of CR X. So you just have to ignore all of those tables and select something in the right price range (or reroll until you get something in that price range).
The only tables that do that are 15-2 in the Core Rules, or 5-2 in the GMG if you reroll until you get something magical. But those tables have no connection to the tables in UE, as they do not result in a slot, or a lesser/greater designation.
What's needed is a table similar to CRB 15-2, but with results that send you directly to the proper tables in UE. I.e., I need a minor magic item, either as a reward for the party, or to fill a settlement item slot, so I roll on the table, and my result is a lesser minor head slot, or a greater minor potion, or a lesser minor weapon, etc.
Or... use Table 15–2 to determine what type of item it is, then choose a table of that type in UE that's appropriate for the treasure award value of the monster or the gp value of the settlement. In other words, "I need a magic item that's worth about 5,000 gp... Table 15–2 roll says ring... the greater minor ring table ranges from 4,000 gp to 6,840 gp, so I'll roll on that." Instead of the tables determining everything, you have to make one decision: which of the tables for that item slot do you roll on?
So if the root of your issue is, "UE doesn't have anything like CR Table 15–2 to select a random type of item"... then fair enough, you're right, it doesn't.
(Though I'll also point out that Table 15–2 was picked up from the 3.5 DMG, which was picked up from the 3.0 DMG, and prices have changed a bit in 3.5 and PFRPG, so whether or not that table still represents an "appropriate" proportioning of magic item types is suspect... you could almost roll 1d10 and have the very same item type distribution at the medium or major level...)
judas 147 |
and for those who cant read what it was about:
check this book page 370 table 7-13, and watch whats missing there!!
usd 44.99 for a book with huges errors (so many that its being said in 610 posts)
for one dollar i need to pay 12.58, so, for me this book cost 565.97 plus the landing issues...
before make an opinion, think: what do you do if for a book like this youll need to pay 565.97 usd plus landing costs?
i do my part buying, why you cant do yours preventing those issues?
-----611 posts now
Gorbacz |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
and for those who cant read what it was about:
check this book page 370 table 7-13, and watch whats missing there!!
usd 44.99 for a book with huges errors (so many that its being said in 610 posts)
for one dollar i need to pay 12.58, so, for me this book cost 565.97 plus the landing issues...
before make an opinion, think: what do you do if for a book like this youll need to pay 565.97 usd plus landing costs?
i do my part buying, why you cant do yours preventing those issues?
-----611 posts now
Heh, you're a funny one.
You just gave a 4-star review for the Bestiary.
The Bestiary is full of little errors which have insofar resulted in two Erratas to it.
But that you have no problem with, likely because you don't notice the errors there.
You've rated ARG and ISWG highly too, and both these books have dozens of tiny glitches. You can look around the forum, there are errata threads for both. For example here is one for the ARG.
On the other hand you're nerdraging over one error in Ultimate Equipment (complete with calls for everybody to pirate the book yadda yadda).
RPGs books have lots of errors. They get stamped out in erratas, most of the time. That glitch in the table will be errated once the next print run of the book comes.
In fact, if you take ANY RPG book, be it Paizo, WotC, Chaosium, FFG or whoever you will find errors there. Why is that so? Because they are not published by large companies that employ dozens of editors, it's small press with a handful of those. There are 20-30 people checking Harry Potter books or Harvard academic manuals, there are 2-3 people checking RPG books, which are full of numbers, math, tables and other things that make an editor cringe.
And your money argument? You're paying the equivalent of 45 USD in your country's currency, the fact that it's 565 of that currency means ... what? Unless 565 of your currency is a large chunk of your salary (in which case you should reconsider spending such amounts on luxuries such as RPG books), this argument makes absolutely no sense.
judas 147 |
mmmm im trying to say that those are indeed expensive books for a lot of people, for example, in my country salary reach the 25 usd for 8 hours of work, there are many people which earns less money than that, so yes, if i want to buy these books and expend that prices... at least i can wait better care of content, until i decides the optional less-money way (which i don´t want to).
Kreniigh |
I'll also point out that Table 15–2 was picked up from the 3.5 DMG, which was picked up from the 3.0 DMG, and prices have changed a bit in 3.5 and PFRPG, so whether or not that table still represents an "appropriate" proportioning of magic item types is suspect...
I'm old enough to remember the days when a good enough roll on the magic item tables could get you literally any magic item... First level parties finding Decks of Many Things... #FirstEditionProblems.
Or... use Table 15–2 to determine what type of item it is, then choose a table of that type in UE that's appropriate for the treasure award value of the monster or the gp value of the settlement. In other words, "I need a magic item that's worth about 5,000 gp... Table 15–2 roll says ring... the greater minor ring table ranges from 4,000 gp to 6,840 gp, so I'll roll on that." Instead of the tables determining everything, you have to make one decision: which of the tables for that item slot do you roll on?
OK, I appreciate the answer, although there's still no table to randomly generate which slot tables to roll on for wondrous items.
I guess my larger question is about the design choices at play here. Random tables are fun and useful. I'm getting a sense that the design idea at work here is DIY for the GM: "just pick something that fits your game." And yet there are tables for random weapon types, random gems, even random art objects.
Obviously the usefulness of random magic item tables is still part of the game; once you have the item type determined, some items (like rings of protection) are still more likely to be found than others. But that seems like a carryover from previous systems that was never expanded when the tables were broken down by lesser/greater and body slots. It seems to have been overlooked in favor of the DIY approach.
Is that the intent? In design and playtesting, are items all pretty much hand-picked? How do you manage it in your games when a party or settlement needs a random minor magic item?
Sean K Reynolds Designer, RPG Superstar Judge |
Obviously the usefulness of random magic item tables is still part of the game; once you have the item type determined, some items (like rings of protection) are still more likely to be found than others. But that seems like a carryover from previous systems that was never expanded when the tables were broken down by lesser/greater and body slots. It seems to have been overlooked in favor of the DIY approach.
I don't agree that it's the case. One advantage of breaking the tables into greater and lesser and such is it gives us more wiggle room for the proportions of various items. There are exactly 300 wondrous items in the Core Rulebook, spread over three tables, which means each has an exactly the same chance of appearing relative to the other ones. With the fewer-items tables as presented in UE, I can give boots of elvenkind a 15% chance on the table, slightly favoring the preponderance of "classic" magic items (from the Core Rulebook) over the newer/weirder/more exotic same-price items picked up from other sources. As the guy who built or rebuilt those tables, I did exactly that.
Is that the intent? In design and playtesting, are items all pretty much hand-picked?
Considering that the "horde" tables in the back tell you which tables to roll on, and those are random rolls, no, they're not hand-picked.
Kreniigh |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Kreniigh wrote:Obviously the usefulness of random magic item tables is still part of the game; once you have the item type determined, some items (like rings of protection) are still more likely to be found than others. But that seems like a carryover from previous systems that was never expanded when the tables were broken down by lesser/greater and body slots. It seems to have been overlooked in favor of the DIY approach.I don't agree that it's the case. One advantage of breaking the tables into greater and lesser and such is it gives us more wiggle room for the proportions of various items. There are exactly 300 wondrous items in the Core Rulebook, spread over three tables, which means each has an exactly the same chance of appearing relative to the other ones. With the fewer-items tables as presented in UE, I can give boots of elvenkind a 15% chance on the table, slightly favoring the preponderance of "classic" magic items (from the Core Rulebook) over the newer/weirder/more exotic same-price items picked up from other sources. As the guy who built or rebuilt those tables, I did exactly that.
Sorry, I worded that badly. I meant, overlooked in favor of the DIY approach in the decisions leading up to the tables. The UE tables are obviously weighted, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise; that was clearly a lot of work on your part.
The horde tables are great when you have a context in mind; what I mean by DIY is that as a GM you're still deciding on a category, i.e., Armor and Weapons or Spellcaster Gear. But now I find myself drifting back to:
So if the root of your issue is, "UE doesn't have anything like CR Table 15–2 to select a random type of item"... then fair enough, you're right, it doesn't.
and that's fairly settled... I can either make such a table myself, or find someone online who has. I'm just surprised that you never have a need for one in your own games. #FirstEditionThinking on my part, maybe.
Sean K Reynolds Designer, RPG Superstar Judge |
Snapshot |
Price Check Please.
Vest of Stable Mutation 20000gp
20,000 GP
AURA moderate abjuration CL 8th WEIGHT 2 lbs.
This leather vest is fitted with a number of pockets that are useful
for storing the ingredients necessary for alchemical tinkering.
The main ability of this vest, however, is to lessen the debilitating
effects of an alchemist’s mutagen. While under the effect of any
type of mutagen, the wearer takes no penalty to mental ability
scores from that mutagen.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS COST 10,000 GP
Craft Wondrous Item, eagle’s splendor, fox’s cunning, owl’s
wisdom, creator must be an alchemist
Seems useful until you compare it against a
Headband of mental Superiority 16000gp
VARIES
+2 Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma 16,000 GP
AURA strong transmutation CL 16th WEIGHT 1 lb.
This ornate headband is decorated
with numerous clusters of small
gemstones. The headband grants
the wearer an enhancement bonus
to all mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma)
of +2,. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the
first 24 hours the headband is worn. The headband also grants
skill ranks as a headband of vast intelligence.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS COST varies
+2 Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma 8,000 GP
Craft Wondrous Item, eagle’s splendor, fox’s cunning, owl’s
wisdom
You gain the same benefit Plus boost of +2 to 2 other stats and additional skill ranks.
Plus the Vest is only useful when you have the ability to create a mutagen [Alchemist] and are currently under the effect of a mutagen. Both limiting factors. 20000gp to get rid of a -2 penalty that is circumstantial and easily countered with a headband for less money.
What am I missing?
Urath DM |
"Snapshot"]
You gain the same benefit Plus boost of +2 to 2 other stats and additional skill ranks.
The vest does not give bonuses; it negates a penalty. The headband grants bonuses. That is not the same benefit at all.
What am I missing?
They stack.
So an Alchemist can wear both (as they are in different slots), use a mutagen to gain physical bonuses without losing any mental bonuses, and add mental bonuses on top.
Snapshot |
...
"Snapshot"] ...
You miss the point
Yes what you say is true but not the point.One Item 16000 gp gives you
((-2 penalty) + (+2 Bonus))+ (+2 Bonus)+ (+2 Bonus)+ (Skill points) = 0,+2,+2+Skill points
Other item 20000gp gets rid of the penalty only with no other benefit
(-2 penalty) - (-2 penalty) =0
This is about price for result not function.
20000gp to get rid of a minor -2 penalty that is only in effect in limited circumstances.
magnuskn |
Urath DM wrote:...Quote:"Snapshot"] ...
You miss the point
Yes what you say is true but not the point.One Item 16000 gp gives you
((-2 penalty) + (+2 Bonus))+ (+2 Bonus)+ (+2 Bonus)+ (Skill points) = 0,+2,+2+Skill pointsOther item 20000gp gets rid of the penalty only with no other benefit
(-2 penalty) - (-2 penalty) =0This is about price for result not function.
20000gp to get rid of a minor -2 penalty that is only in effect in limited circumstances.
It's not in the headband slot and occupies a slot which has few good other items to put there ( although the Quick Runners Shirt is a very cheap and very nice item to have ).
Urath DM |
Urath DM wrote:...Quote:"Snapshot"] ...
You miss the point
Yes what you say is true but not the point.One Item 16000 gp gives you
((-2 penalty) + (+2 Bonus))+ (+2 Bonus)+ (+2 Bonus)+ (Skill points) = 0,+2,+2+Skill pointsOther item 20000gp gets rid of the penalty only with no other benefit
(-2 penalty) - (-2 penalty) =0This is about price for result not function.
20000gp to get rid of a minor -2 penalty that is only in effect in limited circumstances.
The vest is not aimed at anyone using the base mutagen. The real value is when it negates not one, but two even three penalties.. and allows additional bonuses to stack:
Grand mutagen: The alchemist's mutagen now grants a +6 natural armor bonus, a +8 alchemical bonus to one ability score (Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution), a +6 alchemical bonus to a second physical ability score, and a +4 alchemical bonus to a third physical ability score. The alchemist takes a –2 penalty to his Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma as long as the mutagen persists (see Mutagen). An alchemist must be at least 16th level and must possess the greater mutagen discovery before selecting this discovery.
Greater mutagen: The alchemist's mutagen now grants a +4 natural armor bonus, a +6 alchemical bonus to one physical ability score (Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution), and a +4 alchemical bonus to a second physical ability score. The alchemist takes a –2 penalty on both associated mental ability scores as long as the mutagen persists. An alchemist must be at least 12th level before selecting this discovery.
Emphasis mine.
Irubo |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
While updating d20pfsrd.com with the Ultimate Equipment content we noticed that the Daredevil softpaws/boots changed from their appearance in Advanced Race Guide.
In the ARG version whenever the wearer successfully moves though the space of an enemy without provoking an attack of opportunity, she gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against that enemy until the end of her turn." whereas in Ultimate Equipment the bonus is only +1. We are assuming this was intentional and not an error or typo?
I have the same question...
Matthew Shelton |
The gp costs for the light and heavy spiked shields on the Weapons Table are incorrect. The cost markup for shield spikes should be +10 gp, whereas the markup for armor spikes (+50 gp) has been applied instead.
Spiked light shield: "+50 gp" should be "+10 gp".
Spiked heavy shield: "57 gp/70 gp" should be "27 gp/40 gp".
Source: Table 1-5, p. 18.
Alternately, if the cost of shield spikes is in error, then the cost of shield spikes on the Armor Table is incorrect.
Shield spikes: "+10 gp" should be "+50 gp" (assuming the foregoing values for spiked light and heavy shields are correct).
Source: Table 1-1, p. 9
AerynTahlro |
I couldn't seem to uncover an errors/errata thread for this book, so I'm posting here...
The Gorgon Belt has a typo in it.
(My PDF, the official PRD, and d20pfsrd all have this same wording)
This belt grants its wearer a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, and the ability to ignore difficult terrain while charging or making an overrun, bull rush, or trample attempt. Furthermore, once per day on command, its wearer can spew a 60-foot cone of poisonous green gas as a breath weapon. Any creature caught in the area of the gas can attempt a DC 18 saving throw to resist its effect, but if the creature fails the saving throw, it is paralyzed for 1d4 rounds. At the end of its turn, a creature petrified by this breath weapon can attempt a new save to end the paralysis effect. Treat the enhancement bonus to Strength as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.
Nothing major, 'petrified' should be 'paralyzed'.
Cat-thulhu |
The dwarven dorn dergar never made it into this book. Is this no longer considered pathfinder legal? I thought this was a compendium of everything to date.
I'm also keen to know if this Is in the second printing yet. This gets used a LOT at the table so we're keen to get a corrected print.
Sniggevert |
The dwarven dorn dergar never made it into this book. Is this no longer considered pathfinder legal? I thought this was a compendium of everything to date.
I'm also keen to know if this Is in the second printing yet. This gets used a LOT at the table so we're keen to get a corrected print.
Neither the Aldori Dueling Sword nor the Bladed Scarf were included either. That doesn't mean they don't exist, just that they're not part of this book. Those items are more tied to Golarion than a general weapon IMO, so wouldn't have a place in a setting neutral rulebook.
If there was a second printing out, there would be an errata file available in your downloads for the changes to update a first printing to second printing.
Lost 33 |
d20pfsrd.com wrote:I have the same question...While updating d20pfsrd.com with the Ultimate Equipment content we noticed that the Daredevil softpaws/boots changed from their appearance in Advanced Race Guide.
In the ARG version whenever the wearer successfully moves though the space of an enemy without provoking an attack of opportunity, she gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against that enemy until the end of her turn." whereas in Ultimate Equipment the bonus is only +1. We are assuming this was intentional and not an error or typo?
Seems like its been awhile since this was asked, and it's not in the FAQ... So one more shot!
Is the Daredevil Softpaws Boots still a +2 bonus on attack rolls as in ARG, or is it now a +1 bonus as in UE?
As for now, my GM is running with the +2 for my Catfolk, but an official word on this would be appreciated.
Dennis Baker RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor |
Ashram |
Considering how long it took Ultimate Combat to get an update (Nearly two and a half years...) and due to this book's sheer size and amount of unupdated crunch (Like items taken from Core and APG in their first printing incarnations,) it will probably be a very long time before this book sees an update.
Ross Byers RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 |
jimibones83 |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
jimibones83 wrote:I've been waiting to buy this book until it reprints. Sux to hear it could be so long offIf people stop buying books, then there is less need for a reprint. Just saying.
I'm not gonna buy a product I'm not satisfied with in hopes it will give me access to a copy of what it should have been all along sometime in the future. If it never reprints ill go without. I hope that don't happen, but to get my money it will take a second printing of this particular book
Aaron Bitman |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I quote Jason Bulmahn in this thread:
Aha... my misfortune strikes again! This is just not my day. Oddly enough, this weapon table does not match the one I turned over for layout... its missing a host of items. I am going to have to investigate this one more fully.
Edit: Yeah, this looks like an unfortunate copy-fit error when the table was made to fit the space allotted. For the record, here are the missing entries. We will make sure to get this fixed at the next possible opportunity.
66 sai
67 sap
68-69 scythe
70-73 shortbow
74-75 shortspear
76-80 shortsword
81 shuriken
82 sickle
83–84 slingJason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
doc the grey |
I quote Jason Bulmahn in this thread:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:Aha... my misfortune strikes again! This is just not my day. Oddly enough, this weapon table does not match the one I turned over for layout... its missing a host of items. I am going to have to investigate this one more fully.
Edit: Yeah, this looks like an unfortunate copy-fit error when the table was made to fit the space allotted. For the record, here are the missing entries. We will make sure to get this fixed at the next possible opportunity.
66 sai
67 sap
68-69 scythe
70-73 shortbow
74-75 shortspear
76-80 shortsword
81 shuriken
82 sickle
83–84 slingJason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Thank you and much obliged. Will be using this the next time I have to roll out some weapons.
Chris Lambertz Community & Digital Content Director |
Chris Lambertz Community & Digital Content Director |