I just read through this and it sounds interesting, I'm excited to try it out.

The one thing I'm not keen on so far is the propaganda. It feels like the whole purpose of putting the module out was to sell minis. I really hope the mini-pictures gimmick isn't going to find its way into other published products (even if they have a set--please don't taint the new Rise of the Runelords with this!). Really not a fan of the tacky sales attempt.

Got to agree with this.

Also supsect that the attempt to lever a pre-made minis pack (and thus a pre-chosen set of foes) into an adventure probably contributed to the issues some people have found with the module.

"Okay, so the module you write has to have an evil cleric, a succubus, a scarlet gargoyle and three zombies in it."

Ah, the joys of marketing...

That's a bonus, as far as I'm concerned, I hope paizo don't avoid it in the future.

I like modules which utilize paizo products from other lines and appreciate being told when such tie-ins exist.

I just read through this and it sounds interesting, I'm excited to try it out.

The one thing I'm not keen on so far is the propaganda. It feels like the whole purpose of putting the module out was to sell minis. I really hope the mini-pictures gimmick isn't going to find its way into other published products (even if they have a set--please don't taint the new Rise of the Runelords with this!). Really not a fan of the tacky sales attempt.

It's not exactly new. Several modules and PFS scenarios have made direct use of some of the flip-mats or map packs.

malebranche wrote:

I just read through this and it sounds interesting, I'm excited to try it out.

The one thing I'm not keen on so far is the propaganda. It feels like the whole purpose of putting the module out was to sell minis. I really hope the mini-pictures gimmick isn't going to find its way into other published products (even if they have a set--please don't taint the new Rise of the Runelords with this!). Really not a fan of the tacky sales attempt.

It's not exactly new. Several modules and PFS scenarios have made direct use of some of the flip-mats or map packs.

This is usually done with a certain finesse, and the map creation sometimes seems to have gone hand-in-hand with the adventure planning (i.e. Crypt of the Everflame).

The minis pack thing was not so elegant, those little mini-headshots are pretty ugly and basically count as substandard art and these monsters do not play well together. This should probably have been a higher-level adventure with levels on the gargoyle and the zombies as flavoursome mooks. If they wanted to keep it low then the succubus mini could have been used to represent some kind of low-level unique monster spawned from a succubus.

As it is, it seems like the marketing ploy has caused design compromises. That is what I would want Paizo to avoid, as they have with the use of maps.

But, actually, what would probably have saved the module in a lot of peoples' eyes would have been a feature that was fairly common in Paizo's 3.5 days but has dropped off noticably: Designer's Notes. Highlighting the Succubus' sub-optimal tactics, pointing out the player equipment to the GM, indicating that a GM might want to make it easier for a novice group to capture the cleric... These kind of notes would have helped GMs to run the game on the day they got it (which can happen with Free RPG Day books).
As it stands, anyone who reads this thread first will get a real boost when running this module.

That's a bonus, as far as I'm concerned, I hope paizo don't avoid it in the future.

I like modules which utilize paizo products from other lines and appreciate being told when such tie-ins exist.

Agreed. Everyone knows my maps suck, so I look to run scenarios that have maps included.

I also look at it as beneficial for the FLGS too. "You want the Dawn of the Scarlet Sun freebie? Here you go. Don't forget that box of minis has everything you need to run the bad guys, and I have the flip map for the adventure right here. That guy over there is getting ready to run the adventure, think you can stick around and try it out?"

Even though I have a complete Heroes and Monsters set (ah, I remember when I had (more) disposable income fondly) The Guardtower got my money for the minis, and Ravenstone got my money for the maps. (I try to by something when I run an adventure, even if it's only a mini or a set of cards.)

That's a bonus, as far as I'm concerned, I hope paizo don't avoid it in the future.

I like modules which utilize paizo products from other lines and appreciate being told when such tie-ins exist.

Have no problem at all with them wanting to connect their adventures with other lines. You want to make an adventure that ties directly with a minis package, I think that's absolutely fine. I've read through this adventure and looked at the pregens prepped for use in the quest, and I don't find the arguments most have made as legitimate at all. The adventure was difficult surely, but certainly not impossible with the pregens. There were ways to thwart everything the succubus could throw at you, which I think is good adventure writing.

Those little pictures of the minis next to their stat block have got to go though. They're uglier than sin, and they add absolutely nothing to the module. Put the notice at the beginning of the adventure, which I thought was fine, and then leave it alone after that. Definitely hope that the mini portraits were a one-time thing!

Put the notice at the beginning of the adventure, which I thought was fine, and then leave it alone after that. Definitely hope that the mini portraits were a one-time thing!

This. So much this.

Those little pictures of the minis next to their stat block have got to go though. They're uglier than sin, and they add absolutely nothing to the module. Put the notice at the beginning of the adventure, which I thought was fine, and then leave it alone after that. Definitely hope that the mini portraits were a one-time thing!

Aesthetic choices aren't right or wrong, of course, but I dont really see the big deal. Then again, I dont pay much attention to the little portraits next to stat blocks, so I guess I wouldnt notice. Maybe they'll jump out at me more when I get my physical copy.

That's a bonus, as far as I'm concerned, I hope paizo don't avoid it in the future.

I like modules which utilize paizo products from other lines and appreciate being told when such tie-ins exist.

Totally agree. While some (perhaps) jaded folks just see "marketing gimmick", I see really nice product synergy that actually aided my local store, and sold some product.

Kudos!

Note: I didn't have a issue with the mini portraits, but I can see as some could. That's how aesthetic choices work.

It's a Free RPG Day module. They're ALL marketing gimmicks in addition to decent modules, Paizo's and every single other publisher's. That's what Free RPG Day is, marketing doubling as (or else masquerading as) an outreach to the fans and an attempt to grow the game.

Same deal goes with Free Comic Book Day, free samples at a grocery store, and any other thing where you get the first taste for free and then have to pay for any more of it...

The mini portraits are just a different way of slipping ads into the module, but nothing Paizo hasn't been doing since the beginning of Paizo, and something the industry hasn't been doing since the beginning of the industry.

Also supsect that the attempt to lever a pre-made minis pack (and thus a pre-chosen set of foes) into an adventure probably contributed to the issues some people have found with the module.

"Okay, so the module you write has to have an evil cleric, a succubus, a scarlet gargoyle and three zombies in it."

Every product is going to have certain limitations. For example, I imagine Wolfgang received a fairly heavy "pre-chosen" NPC list for AP#4. I'd venture to say that a "pre-chosen list" is what every single writer receives whether explicitly or implicitly. So, I do not think it makes sense to denigrate a product simply because of a "pre-chosen" list. Now, perhaps, one thinks the list doesn't make sense, based on certain principles, but that is a different discussion.

GeraintElberion wrote:

Also supsect that the attempt to lever a pre-made minis pack (and thus a pre-chosen set of foes) into an adventure probably contributed to the issues some people have found with the module.

"Okay, so the module you write has to have an evil cleric, a succubus, a scarlet gargoyle and three zombies in it."

Every product is going to have certain limitations. For example, I imagine Wolfgang received a fairly heavy "pre-chosen" NPC list for AP#4. I'd venture to say that a "pre-chosen list" is what every single writer receives whether explicitly or implicitly. So, I do not think it makes sense to denigrate a product simply because of a "pre-chosen" list. Now, perhaps, one thinks the list doesn't make sense, based on certain principles, but that is a different discussion.

I guess it is the difference between a pre-chosen list selected by an experienced RPG developer like JJ or a pre-chosen list based upon a selection of licensed minis... I suppose the natural contrast would be Compleat Encounters, wherein the minis, map and adventure were planned together.

Every product is going to have certain limitations. For example, I imagine Wolfgang received a fairly heavy "pre-chosen" NPC list for AP#4. I'd venture to say that a "pre-chosen list" is what every single writer receives whether explicitly or implicitly. So, I do not think it makes sense to denigrate a product simply because of a "pre-chosen" list. Now, perhaps, one thinks the list doesn't make sense, based on certain principles, but that is a different discussion.

Actually, we do try to allow our authors to make as many choices regarding NPCs and other options in an adventure as we can. In the specific case of AP #4, I believe my only requirement to Wolfgang was that he include a few established NPCs (such as Mokmurian, who HAD to be in there, and such as some of the established PCs in Sandpoint), and a few TYPES of NPCS (there had to be a dragon since we had one on the cover). Beyond that... it was his choice.

I haven't read the adventure yet, but I can see where "mini portraits" could be off putting, BUT it's a FREE product. It's meant to teach and grow the game. We be Goblins, which I ran last year was neat. It's meant for new players, casual players, retired players etc.

I would like to voice that I ADORE product tie ins.
I don't know if its truly "vertical integration", but it makes my life easier. Especially if I'm a Free RPG Day GM who has to manage and coax diverse players who I may not have played with prior.
Maps, mini packs, and tiles are at the top of this list. It also provides a huge benefit to the FLGS. I stopped store buying APs and Campaign Setting books because the digital copies are just so useful. This hurt my FLGS, not much but some. I buy all of my maps at the store, it encourages them to stock them and unlike APs they don't have a shelf life.

I'm a Paizo customer because they make my life as GM easier. They should keep coming up with ways to do so, so they can continue earning all my money. It's gonna be awhile before the Module + Mini Packs logistics get fully worked out, but I have faith that it will one day be a seamless integration.
(And I own so many minis that I don't ever NEED another)

When I first saw Pathfinder Society being played at my FLGS, I thought I had found an organized play setup that would prove better then what I had with the old RPGA. Several months and a lot of play later, that has been true.

Until this module. Playing in this module at Free RPG day has been the worst experience I've had with Pathfinder society, and one of the worst RPGs experiences I've had in over 25 years of playing.

I see also that there are some people who absolutely loved this module and more power to them. I know from long experience that there are some people who enjoy experiences that I find painful. However, I also know that I'm not going to be swayed by arguments that I should enjoy such pain anymore then they are likely to sympathize with people who don't.

One suggestion I might make is has Pathfinder considered a system to rate or categorize modules other then strictly on CR? Something like a Taco Sauce rating of Mild, Spicy, Hot, and Fiery?

My rating would definitely be Fiery for this module.

That's funny, but not a bad idea.

@Parm Xon,

You describe a near TPK and what sounds like a desperate battle against overpowering odds. Now, I haven't played the module so I can't really comment on the specifics of it, but a desperate battle against overpowering odds that NEARLY ends in a TPK, but where the good guys ultimately prevail, sounds like an epic and fun end-game encounter to me.

Point is, it's not necessarily something that requires a recategorization of modules. In almost every module and Pathfinder Society scenario, there's going to some degree of variation in the enjoyment of the action and that comes down to individual group setup more than it necessarily does the Pathfinder Society setup. Of course, sometimes there's going to be some issues with the scenario (such as a villain built way more powerful than a party can expect to survive). From how you described the end encounter, I'd actually enjoy it. :)

Some people prefer to steamroll every encounter.

Some people prefer a challenge.

You cannot please them all.

stuff

UMD my friend, UMD.

Challenge can definitely be a great thing. But the final encounter can easily stretch on for two hours. At that point, it just becomes a slog and when half of your table can't even properly contribute, people quickly lose interest.

It's a difficult balance. The rest of the module is great, it's just the final encounter that is a bit of a sour note.

Steve Geddes wrote:

That's a bonus, as far as I'm concerned, I hope paizo don't avoid it in the future.

I like modules which utilize paizo products from other lines and appreciate being told when such tie-ins exist.

Have no problem at all with them wanting to connect their adventures with other lines. You want to make an adventure that ties directly with a minis package, I think that's absolutely fine. I've read through this adventure and looked at the pregens prepped for use in the quest, and I don't find the arguments most have made as legitimate at all. The adventure was difficult surely, but certainly not impossible with the pregens. There were ways to thwart everything the succubus could throw at you, which I think is good adventure writing.

Those little pictures of the minis next to their stat block have got to go though. They're uglier than sin, and they add absolutely nothing to the module. Put the notice at the beginning of the adventure, which I thought was fine, and then leave it alone after that. Definitely hope that the mini portraits were a one-time thing!

I would assume the portrait thing was a gimmick for new players to make sure they knew which mini corresponded with the stat block. I know it seems obvious to you and me, but a new player (particularly a young one) might need and extra reminder.

A couple issues. GM only.

Does this NEED to be played with Pre-Gens for PFS play or can it be played as a standard PFS module?

Does this NEED to be played with Pre-Gens for PFS play or can it be played as a standard PFS module?

Can be used with your own characters. just remember that you can use a character within one level of the Mod you are playing.

I read the rules on Game Day modules and its 1xp, 1 PP - This is a pretty hard core adventure for that. I'll consider running it at a later date.

So with all the BAD reviews this is getting based on the BBEG being an impossible fight, it seems I'll have to call up my friend who recently moved to Junction City. Just got to tell him this level 5 module features an impossible fight and I'm sure he'll make the trip to prove it's possible. Heh. He's terrible about making OP characters that I don't even see coming. His ideas always seem so reasonable on paper, then they get in game and... it's aged Limburger!