Why is everyone talking about half-orcs in a section about a book for Tieflings?

Because that's how we roll.

And in truth... I actually like half-orcs. Had I my druthers... there'd be no dwarf iconic, and we'd probably replace Harsk with a half-orc. But people like dwarves too, I guess... ;-)

Sorry, James, I didn't know your true intent. I just don't like it when all the races don't get equal time in the spotlight. But does this mean we're not going to see any half-orcs in art simply because they're hard to use? That makes me sad :(.

Okay, enough derailing the thread.

*Sigh* Another great book that I'll have to wait half a year for, and who knows when a Aasimar book will come out. An aasimar book would be cool.

Just wanted to add my two copper on the whole "seems to be more stuff for Evil PCs"...really??

There's what 1 base class, 4 PrCs(at least, maybe 1 or 2 more), 1 archetype(again, I think not positive), some supernatural powers that are apparently evil themes for the Monk and maybe a dozen or two spells and feats.

About 90% of each evil book is actually GM material, with the lone exception of Faiths of Corruption.

On the flip side, there's 21 base classes, at least 17 PrCs, dozens of archetypes and more spells and feats than you can stick a shake at for good characters.

Ya see, that's the default assumption, PCs are the good guys, which means unless a Spell, Class, PrC etc actually requires you to not be good, its an option for the good side.

Now, perhaps what people want are more options for Celestial themed characters and books dealing with the good aligned planes, which is definitely something I can support and request.

Personly I would love to see what people want and/or expect from this book.

I now wanna make a half-orc/tiefling. Would fit well into Belken and possibly the Worldwound.

Or an impish halfling...

I now wanna make a half-orc/tiefling. Would fit well into Belken and possibly the Worldwound.

Or an impish halfling...

The ARG's Race creation system would allow the creation of those race combos.

Thomas LeBlanc wrote:

I now wanna make a half-orc/tiefling. Would fit well into Belken and possibly the Worldwound.

Or an impish halfling...

The ARG's Race creation system would allow the creation of those race combos.

How about a half-orc/aasimar? Now that would be interesting.

Personly I would love to see what people want and/or expect from this book.

I would like to see more types of tieflings, not just humans with fiend blood, but other mortal races with fiend blood. In home games, I generally say that for the "humans with minor differences" (elf, dwarf, and halfling), the fiendish side wins out and just use regular tiefling stats (with a size adjustment for halflings). But what about fiend-tainted fey-descended races, like gnomes? Or more brutal and/or monstrous races like orcs and gnolls? Or fiend-blooded kobolds and barghest-descended goblins? Yes, several of these would seem more like fodder for a GM book on tieflings, but it would be good to see a section on how fiend blood affects other races and some basic statistics for them (and hopefully the statistics would not just be "add the fiendish simple template," as you can't even create a human tiefling with that template).

Personly I would love to see what people want and/or expect from this book.

A lot of the above, but also maintaining a "bumped-down" non-outsider option that is tagged as being completely in line with the core races so that GM's won't be so antsy about allowing them.

After all, tieflings(and aasimar) started out as player races before 3.x changed them. It would be nice to have them back entirely where they belong.

So, as I normally do when I see new Pathfinder goodness on the horizon, I am obliged to ask the following question:

How much of this book will be approved for PFS Organized Play? Will players be allowed to play Tieflings in the Organized Campaign upon the release of this book?

Suddenly April seems so far away...

...and who knows when a Aasimar book will come out...

I know when! I know when!

:-P

So, as I normally do when I see new Pathfinder goodness on the horizon, I am obliged to ask the following question:

How much of this book will be approved for PFS Organized Play? Will players be allowed to play Tieflings in the Organized Campaign upon the release of this book?

My guess: none of it, since tieflings are not a core assumption for player races. Even though tieflings (and aasimar) make GREAT PC choices.

Barong wrote:

...and who knows when a Aasimar book will come out...

I know when! I know when!

:-P

Can you give a hint?

James Jacobs wrote:

Barong wrote:

...and who knows when a Aasimar book will come out...

I know when! I know when!

:-P

Can you give a hint?

is it in 2012 or 2013?

I would guess June 2012.

And in truth... I actually like half-orcs. Had I my druthers... there'd be no dwarf iconic, and we'd probably replace Harsk with a half-orc. But people like dwarves too, I guess... ;-)

You know, you're okay in my book, James, no matter what the others say about you ;) I'd gladly take a Half-Orc over a Dwarf any day :)

This looks like my kind of book ... any chance we might see a random appearance table in it?

Also hoping for:

Back when the original tiefling article in Council of Thieves came out, some of us did complain about the lack of wild variety amongst the tieflings in the artwork, especially given what a large portion of that article was about. This really hit home when artwork for other tieflings in that adventure path did have some awesome range shown off, like the design for that all-black one.(vagueness intentional for spoilers sake)

It could be cool to really show off a lot of the possibilities you can get with this race.

Same thing for any possible aasimar book too, really.

James Jacobs wrote:

Barong wrote:

...and who knows when a Aasimar book will come out...

I know when! I know when!

:-P

Can you give a hint?

is it in 2012 or 2013?

I cannot. I'm not allowed.

James Jacobs wrote:

And in truth... I actually like half-orcs. Had I my druthers... there'd be no dwarf iconic, and we'd probably replace Harsk with a half-orc. But people like dwarves too, I guess... ;-)

You know, you're okay in my book, James, no matter what the others say about you ;) I'd gladly take a Half-Orc over a Dwarf any day :)

This looks like my kind of book ... any chance we might see a random appearance table in it?

We did just that in the original article on tieflings in Pathfinder #25 that significant portions of this book is based on. So... yup!

Also hoping for:

Back when the original tiefling article in Council of Thieves came out, some of us did complain about the lack of wild variety amongst the tieflings in the artwork, especially given what a large portion of that article was about. This really hit home when artwork for other tieflings in that adventure path did have some awesome range shown off, like the design for that all-black one.(vagueness intentional for spoilers sake)

It could be cool to really show off a lot of the possibilities you can get with this race.

Same thing for any possible aasimar book too, really.

The problem, I suspect, with the artwork in that article was that WotC's 4th edition tiefling had saturated the market... and that includes artists. We use a lot of the same artists as other RPG companies... particularly WotC... so sometimes when we say "draw/paint us a monster" the artist doesn't realize we want a different version of the monster. Usually when we get art in that's inappropriate, we request changes to the art or simply kill the art before publication... but in this case, that wasn't really an option since the monthly deadline didn't really leave us an option. Well... it DID... but "run the article with no art" wasn't really great. And while those tieflings looked similar to WotC's desgn... they still looked different enough that we went ahead with it.

That design is specifically one we're trying to avoid in this book.

In fact, I just saw the sketches today for the 10 variant tiefling portraits, and wow... they're pretty cool. Especially the qlippoth tiefling. That guy won't get invited to ANY dances, that's for sure.

That design is specifically one we're trying to avoid in this book.

God bless you James. God bless you.

I'm of course biased towards tiefling designs like 2e's Factol Rhys and "The Painter". But I'm seriously keen to see this book's look at various tiefling types by descent. Is there a daemon-blooded tiefling perchance (since they got mentioned prominantly in BotD3)?

In fact, I just saw the sketches today for the 10 variant tiefling portraits, and wow... they're pretty cool. Especially the qlippoth tiefling. That guy won't get invited to ANY dances, that's for sure.

Which Whately brother does he look more akin to? :P

In fact, I just saw the sketches today for the 10 variant tiefling portraits, and wow... they're pretty cool. Especially the qlippoth tiefling. That guy won't get invited to ANY dances, that's for sure.

I just did the Happy Dance. Thanks, James!

Azure_Zero wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Barong wrote:

...and who knows when a Aasimar book will come out...

I know when! I know when!

:-P

Can you give a hint?

is it in 2012 or 2013?

I cannot. I'm not allowed.

Your words are hint enough of a possible time point.

The old planescape version of the tiefling is still the iconic tiefling to me, complete with the race's variable and often subtle and infernal physical traits and appetite for things like charcoal and bones. Pathfinder's version of the tiefling is pretty close to that, which is why I like Pathfinder's tieflings.

The old planescape version of the tiefling is still the iconic tiefling to me, complete with the race's variable and often subtle and infernal physical traits and appetite for things like charcoal and bones. Pathfinder's version of the tiefling is pretty close to that, which is why I like Pathfinder's tieflings.

Same thing here w/ regards to what I consider tieflings to be.

That said, look at who's writing this book (Mr 'Faces of Evil' McComb). I suspect that we'll both be very happy. :)

Cool, 10 variants for Tieflings, those will be very interesting pics. I hope the Aasimar will get so many variants.

Cool, 10 variants for Tieflings, those will be very interesting pics. I hope the Aasimar will get so many variants.

I would like More than 10 variants.

Ashanderai wrote:

The old planescape version of the tiefling is still the iconic tiefling to me, complete with the race's variable and often subtle and infernal physical traits and appetite for things like charcoal and bones. Pathfinder's version of the tiefling is pretty close to that, which is why I like Pathfinder's tieflings.

Same thing here w/ regards to what I consider tieflings to be.

That said, look at who's writing this book (Mr 'Faces of Evil' McComb). I suspect that we'll both be very happy. :)

Oh, I quite agree. I like variety and options.

Cool, 10 variants for Tieflings, those will be very interesting pics. I hope the Aasimar will get so many variants.

They won't because they can't. There's just not that many types of good outsider as there are evil outsider.

Dragon78 wrote:

Cool, 10 variants for Tieflings, those will be very interesting pics. I hope the Aasimar will get so many variants.

I would like More than 10 variants.

More specific heritages.

But I suspect if we gave you 14 variants, you'd want more than 14.

10 variants is actauly quite a lot. It's also not really a number we can expand without inventing entirely new races of evil fiends, and that's not something I think that is all that necessary at this point, since 10 is probably enough.

And since we're reprinting the big list of variant abilities and variant appearances, your options for unique tieflings will quite literally be in the millions. Maybe even higher once you factor in 10 variant tieflilngs on top of the standard tiefling (who we assume is a mongrel with mixed fiendish blood from multiple fiendish races).

Azure_Zero wrote:

Dragon78 wrote:

Cool, 10 variants for Tieflings, those will be very interesting pics. I hope the Aasimar will get so many variants.

I would like More than 10 variants.

More specific heritages.

But I suspect if we gave you 14 variants, you'd want more than 14.

10 variants is actually quite a lot. It's also not really a number we can expand without inventing entirely new races of evil fiends, and that's not something I think that is all that necessary at this point, since 10 is probably enough.

12 is enough variation for me.

In fact, I just saw the sketches today for the 10 variant tiefling portraits, and wow... they're pretty cool. Especially the qlippoth tiefling. That guy won't get invited to ANY dances, that's for sure.

This is really cool to hear. :D

Ashanderai wrote:

The old planescape version of the tiefling is still the iconic tiefling to me, complete with the race's variable and often subtle and infernal physical traits and appetite for things like charcoal and bones. Pathfinder's version of the tiefling is pretty close to that, which is why I like Pathfinder's tieflings.

Same thing here w/ regards to what I consider tieflings to be.

That said, look at who's writing this book (Mr 'Faces of Evil' McComb). I suspect that we'll both be very happy. :)

spit takes

Did not realize earlier...

There is always traits and feats for more abilities, options, and variations that could be there.

and new options for inquisitors and summoners and sorcerers

Does that mean we'll get fiend specific bloodlines.

...I wish this book came out earlier. Like a few months ago. My favorite race is tiefling and I'm trying to branch out by playing a kitsune in an upcoming campaign but... but this book... it... it calls to the character womb that spawns tieflings... the options... so much new.

You guys are going to bankrupt me this year with all the awesome.

That basically says "this race is an afterthought".

Random thought, after re-reading this.

*Most* of the non-human races are afterthoughts.

We've got over a half-dozen human ethnicities, with their own distinctive languages and cultures, and over a dozen nations dominated by them, while elves are tucked away in a single nation, speaking a single language, and dwarves have just recently gotten updated to appear on the map at all, and speak a single language, and halflings, gnomes, half-orcs and half-elves are still tucked away in other people's nations and cultures, lacking any real presence on the map or diverse cultures of their own.

Half-orcs lacking much representation isn't that shocking, when you consider that gnomes and halflings, both full-blooded racial types and not 'half' anything, don't even have a visible presence in the setting. (There are more countries run by devil-worshippers, full blooded orcs, evil atheists and *undead* than there are run by halflings or gnomes, after all!)

Making *all* Ulfen dwarves (braid-bearded, loud-singing, longship-raiding axe-wielding Linnorm-slaying mead-drinking Viking dwarves, but, really, aren't they already most of the way there?), and *most* Varisians halflings (with the occasional adopted 'honorary' Varisian gnome or human or half-elf, 'cause Varisian's are open-minded like that) and *all* Shoanti half-orcs (descended from orc/human crossbred warrior/mameluke/slave caste in ancient Thassilon), and you would have a setting where half-orcs (and dwarves and halflings, etc.) have a culture and a footprint both in the setting's history and on the map.

Still, that's a-changing with Dragon Empires, which has a nagaji-dominated land and a tengu-dominated country and an elven-dominated country and an *aasimar*-dominated country! Way, way cool!

So hey, is it impolite to toot my own horn (or squawk my own beak or whatever that vrock avatar is likely to say) and sort of quietly announce that I think this is a pretty excellent book? I mean, I haven't seen the final product or anything, but I really like this book.

Just saying.

And yes, Todd, you will get your wish.

And yes, Todd, you will get your wish.

The Painter from Planescape being the iconic tiefling? :D

The Painter from planescape?

I remember the artwork for the 2nd edition planescape, they had the best pic of a female Catlord I have ever seen. I also really like the pics for the Erinyes devil and the Lilind.

Hopefully the Variant Tiefling Ability chart has been... re-thought somewhat.

"As a full-round action, you can bleed and collect 5 sp worth of precious blood per day."

What?

I am curious to know if there are going to be variant options or suggestions for tieflings that are not of human-fiend stock but have a different core race as a parent, such as a halfling or elf.

Colin McComb wrote:

And yes, Todd, you will get your wish.

The Painter from Planescape being the iconic tiefling? :D

I was actually talking about daemonspawn, but... sure!*

I remember the artwork for the 2nd edition planescape, they had the best pic of a female Catlord I have ever seen. I also really like the pics for the Erinyes devil and the Lilind.

Tony DiTerlizzi has all that stuff up on his website if you want to look those over again. And yes, I totally had a crush on the Catlord.

I am curious to know if there are going to be variant options or suggestions for tieflings that are not of human-fiend stock but have a different core race as a parent, such as a halfling or elf.

I'm not sure how much James is going to let me say here (he walks jauntily past my house swinging chains sometimes, looking meaningfully in through the window), but I'm pretty sure I can say that yes, there is some discussion of non-human variants. I'll let James talk about it further, though, because I hear his distinctive whistling now.

*The Painter will not actually appear in this supplement.

I'm not sure how much James is going to let me say here (he walks jauntily past my house swinging chains sometimes, looking meaningfully in through the window), but I'm pretty sure I can say that yes, there is some discussion of non-human variants. I'll let James talk about it further, though, because I hear his distinctive whistling now.

This, almost as much as the general subject matter of the book, will force to pre-order this sucker. Kicking and screaming. I swear.

I'm currently poking around making an elf-demon tief variant using the Advanced Race Guide playtest, however I trust the pros, such as yourself, have come up a slightly more, how shall I put it, elegant a solution to this quandary.

...

I'm currently poking around making an elf-demon tief variant using the Advanced Race Guide playtest, however I trust the pros, such as yourself, have come up a slightly more, how shall I put it, elegant a solution to this quandary.

here is a solution I made during the playtest

and *all* Shoanti half-orcs (descended from orc/human crossbred warrior/mameluke/slave caste in ancient Thassilon), and you would have a setting where half-orcs (and dwarves and halflings, etc.) have a culture and a footprint both in the setting's history and on the map.

Just wanted to say, as a fan of the Shoanti and half-orcs, I really, really like this idea.

Cultural footprints are something I miss for a lot of these races.

yes, there is some discussion of non-human variants.

YASE.

Hoping the same follows for the aasimar book!

I want the book now, but I know it's better to wait for a polished product

Will this product get a teaser in the paizo blog?