Shisumo |
The Yokai Hunter and the Lotus Geisha are being contemplated at my table. Any vague spoilers?
The lotus geisha is a bard archetype that can focus his bardic performance on a single target to either increase the save DC or boost the bonus. He also gets Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus for enchantment. These abilities come at the price of the bard's regular skill- and knowledge-based abilities.
The yokai hunter didn't impress me too much - it's got a weaker favored enemy (it doesn't increase as you level, you just get new types added at the base +2, and the list is limited), in exchange for the ability to recognize a favored enemy when shapeshifted or detect them at range. I'm not sure it's worth the tradeoff.
ThatEvilGuy |
The yokai hunter didn't impress me too much - it's got a weaker favored enemy (it doesn't increase as you level, you just get new types added at the base +2, and the list is limited), in exchange for the ability to recognize a favored enemy when shapeshifted or detect them at range. I'm not sure it's worth the tradeoff.
Thanks for the response! It's too bad about the Yokai hunter. I had an idea brewing for that one. Lotus geisha sounds neat.
There was a mention of rogue for the white haired witch. Like, how rogue? "I find traps" rogue or "I carve you to pieces" rogue?
ThatEvilGuy |
"I get rogue talents in place of major hexes" rogue.
That's, um... hmm. I have no idea. So the first 10 levels are "I get awesome hair powers" followed by "I give up powerful supernatural abilities for low-level rogue mundane abilities".
Hm. I'll have to see it for myself when I buy the PDF to really make a judgement, to be honest. Perhaps the awesome of the hair makes up for the loss. Perhaps.
Cheapy |
Shisumo wrote:"I get rogue talents in place of major hexes" rogue.So, if your white-haired witch takes the extra hexes feat, does it provide hexes or rogue talents?
My guess is that it's like the Archaeologist, in that they get the Rogue Talent class ability so they can take the feat.
Matthew Morris RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 |
Ashanderai |
Sword saint loses banner, which strikes me as extremely disappointing for a samurai archetype.
I love it! The mount and banner abilities were the abilities I did not want as a part of my samurai character concept. Now I have something I find more useful for my samurai.
I am not a bard player at all, but the lotus bard causes me to consider some cool character concepts... maybe as part of a ninja multiclass with hidden weapons and disguises...
The yokai hunter doesn't do anything for me.
The white-haired witch is the most anticipated archetype for me as I have a few character concepts in mind for it. Unfortunately, this focuses on rogue-like abilities for some reason, which I find a little... inexplicable. It's not all bad, but it does invalidate some concepts I was hoping for. I was hoping for something a little more monk-like.
Also, you have to give up all of your hexes as a white-haired witch. The hair extends its reach every four levels and uses INT instead of STR to attack and grapple with. It also gets some nice constrict, trip, and strangle abilities, but the pull ability scares me - its use would have to be very situational, especially as a squishy, full arcane spellcaster. Using the hair in melee combat is a rather "hairy" proposition as it is (heh heh ;) ) for a non-melee proficient spellcaster. If I am going into melee as a low-BAB spellcaster I wish I could at least get a better bonus to my BAB than just using my INT for something I am giving up a lot to get - something like using my level as my BAB for my hair would be nice, though potentially OP (that idea would need playtesting). It does let you get a free chance to grapple your target without provoking an AoO, though, which is pretty nice; it's just that your chance of succeeding with a low BAB seems pretty bad. Giving up all of my hexes on top of it all is a high cost and getting only rogue talents in their place feels wrong to me somehow.
I guess it has some potential though. I'll have to review some of those rogue talents. This archetype would work best as a touch-spell-focused caster, I think. I hope there are rogue talents that can support that (I haven't looked yet and cannot recall right now).
ThatEvilGuy |
The sword saint losing the mount and banner works for one of my concepts as well! Works *perfectly*.
Stuff about white-haired witch
That actually sounds pretty neat, now that I know you can do a few things with the hair. I'm presuming that it's an extension of the prehensile hair hex with unlimited duration or so in addition to being able to use it to do all those combat maneuvers. Outside of theorycrafting though, I have no idea how useful the archetype would be in a combat situation compared to a regular witch. Time will tell.
Protoman |
Would anyone be able to fill in the mechanical details of Iaijutsu Strike? I'm starting up Jade Regent once the primer is out because I feel a player would be really into Sword Saint, but we'd like to know early (in order to actually get his character done for game day) if Iaijutsu Strike is worth trading out for the mount and banner for his concept.
Robert Jordan |
IMO posting the mechanical effects from a book that just got released this week is a bit tacky since why buy it when someone will fill you in. I would say let him play it like a normal samurai till he can take a look through and decide and if you're running it maybe let him have the option to rebuild his character. Having looked at the Jade Regent I wouldn't wanna be mounted in the swamp anyways.
Robert Jordan |
A good deal of the feats in here revolve around the following; ki, flurry of blows, stunning fist, or quivering palm. There are a couple that do not but the majority entail one of those aforementioned abilities. I will say one of the coolest feats revolves around using Quivering Palm to do something other than kill the target (my favorite is coma). Oh and there's a feat named Sleeper Hold which is pretty self explanatory on what it lets you do. The honor system does indeed resemble the rep system from Lands of the Linnorm Kings, so if you're familiar with the rep system you'll have a good grasp on the honor one.
Ouch sorry protoman just remember you're not held responsible for what their mounts may do when they suddenly sink up to their hindquarters in pluff mud.
SquishyPoetFromBeyondTheStars |
A good deal of the feats in here revolve around the following; ki, flurry of blows, stunning fist, or quivering palm. There are a couple that do not but the majority entail one of those aforementioned abilities. I will say one of the coolest feats revolves around using Quivering Palm to do something other than kill the target (my favorite is coma). Oh and there's a feat named Sleeper Hold which is pretty self explanatory on what it lets you do. The honor system does indeed resemble the rep system from Lands of the Linnorm Kings, so if you're familiar with the rep system you'll have a good grasp on the honor one.
Ouch sorry protoman just remember you're not held responsible for what their mounts may do when they suddenly sink up to their hindquarters in pluff mud.
Many thanks Robert.
You know its about time someone made a feat or two that involved quivering palm. I need to stop asking about this book its just making me want it more.Ævux |
Basic overview, as I don't want to overreach and post more than should be, one gives you a full fox form small size and everything. Another lets you shapeshift as a swift action. The last one lets you pounce if you swap to kitsune form during the charge. Now mind you these feats do have pre-requisites.
I just want to know if a gunslinger can take one at level 3.
Joseph Wilson |
Robert Jordan wrote:Basic overview, as I don't want to overreach and post more than should be, one gives you a full fox form small size and everything. Another lets you shapeshift as a swift action. The last one lets you pounce if you swap to kitsune form during the charge. Now mind you these feats do have pre-requisites.I just want to know if a gunslinger can take one at level 3.
Fox Shape has a +3 BAB requirement. The others would be out of your reach.
Kvantum |
Ævux wrote:Fox Shape has a +3 BAB requirement. The others would be out of your reach.Robert Jordan wrote:Basic overview, as I don't want to overreach and post more than should be, one gives you a full fox form small size and everything. Another lets you shapeshift as a swift action. The last one lets you pounce if you swap to kitsune form during the charge. Now mind you these feats do have pre-requisites.I just want to know if a gunslinger can take one at level 3.
Only until he meets the BAB pre-reqs. Well, that and a 13 Dex for Swift Fox Shape, but what Gunslinger won't have a 13 Dex by 6th level?
Matrixryu |
Joseph Wilson wrote:Only until he meets the BAB pre-reqs. Well, that and a 13 Dex for Swift Fox Shape, but what Gunslinger won't have a 13 Dex by 6th level?Ævux wrote:Fox Shape has a +3 BAB requirement. The others would be out of your reach.Robert Jordan wrote:Basic overview, as I don't want to overreach and post more than should be, one gives you a full fox form small size and everything. Another lets you shapeshift as a swift action. The last one lets you pounce if you swap to kitsune form during the charge. Now mind you these feats do have pre-requisites.I just want to know if a gunslinger can take one at level 3.
So, the kitsune feats just have BAB and Dex requirements? Is there anything else that I should worry about so I can make sure my kitusne will eventually qualify for the entire chain? My ninja should be starting with Dex 17 and Cha 14.
Btw, the idea of a Gunslinger Kitsune is hilarious XD
James Jacobs Creative Director |
Why the heck do they have BAB requirements?
To me, its like having a feat that enhances diplomacy, like Happy Smile but you have to have a BAB of 10 to gain it..
The reason they have BAB requirements (or other level-based requirements) is that kitsune feats are supposed to be things you get as you gain levels, not something you get at 1st level. That's one way we model the idea that "the more tails (aka the more feats) a kitsune has, the more powerful he is."
Simply saying character level is a requirement is not something we normally do for feats. We might revise that stance in the future, but we hadn't for these feats.
I suspect that we'll do more kitsune feats in the future (Advanced Race Guide, for example), which will have other methods of working. We only had room for 3 in the primer, alas.
Matrixryu |
Ævux wrote:Why the heck do they have BAB requirements?
To me, its like having a feat that enhances diplomacy, like Happy Smile but you have to have a BAB of 10 to gain it..
The reason they have BAB requirements (or other level-based requirements) is that kitsune feats are supposed to be things you get as you gain levels, not something you get at 1st level. That's one way we model the idea that "the more tails (aka the more feats) a kitsune has, the more powerful he is."
Simply saying character level is a requirement is not something we normally do for feats. We might revise that stance in the future, but we hadn't for these feats.
I suspect that we'll do more kitsune feats in the future (Advanced Race Guide, for example), which will have other methods of working. We only had room for 3 in the primer, alas.
I'm glad to hear that there will probably be more kitsune feats :D It would be interesting if you guys actually made enough feats for a kitsune to get 9 tails. Though, I'm having enough trouble just figuring out how to fit the current 3 kitsune feats on my ninja, lol.
Assuming 5 more feats are created, I wonder if there should be a prestige class to help a kitsune become a nine tailed fox faster?
Matthew Morris RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 |
So, the kitsune feats just have BAB and Dex requirements? Is there anything else that I should worry about so I can make sure my kitusne will eventually qualify for the entire chain? My ninja should be starting with Dex 17 and Cha 14.
Btw, the idea of a Gunslinger Kitsune is hilarious XD
Fox form Cha 13, BAB +3
Swift Kitsune Shapechanger Dex 13 BAB +6Vulpine Pounce Dex 13, Swift Kitsune Shapechanger, BAB +10
I'm sure there are already other feats out there :-)
Matrixryu |
Matrixryu wrote:So, the kitsune feats just have BAB and Dex requirements? Is there anything else that I should worry about so I can make sure my kitusne will eventually qualify for the entire chain? My ninja should be starting with Dex 17 and Cha 14.
Btw, the idea of a Gunslinger Kitsune is hilarious XD
Fox form Cha 13, BAB +3
Swift Kitsune Shapechanger Dex 13 BAB +6
Vulpine Pounce Dex 13, Swift Kitsune Shapechanger, BAB +10I'm sure there are already other feats out there :-)
Ouch, I'm not going to be able to get Vulpine Pounce until level 15... (unless I give up a Master Ninja Trick). At least the ability scores won't be a problem.
Ævux |
Ævux wrote:Why the heck do they have BAB requirements?
To me, its like having a feat that enhances diplomacy, like Happy Smile but you have to have a BAB of 10 to gain it..
The reason they have BAB requirements (or other level-based requirements) is that kitsune feats are supposed to be things you get as you gain levels, not something you get at 1st level. That's one way we model the idea that "the more tails (aka the more feats) a kitsune has, the more powerful he is."
Simply saying character level is a requirement is not something we normally do for feats. We might revise that stance in the future, but we hadn't for these feats.
I suspect that we'll do more kitsune feats in the future (Advanced Race Guide, for example), which will have other methods of working. We only had room for 3 in the primer, alas.
Well really, I feel you should have for those feats, cause BAB is not a good representation of a characters actual power level.
The pounce is okay as with BAB cause it is a combative one, but it is still rather steep.. A medium bab won't be able to get it until level 15. a Low BAB, won't be able to get swift shape until level 13 and a low bab would never be able to get pounce. Low babs also can't get the first kitsune feat until level 7.
I was afraid this was going to be all based on caster level, and as a gunslinger I'd never gain access to them, but I never would have expected a gunslinger kitsune to be the best option for it.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
Actually the Kitsune entry (or the rest of the book) has no mention of feats=tails Also it just seems odd that a lvl 10 fighter can have more tails than a lvl 10 wizard or rogue (all of which in theory at least should be roughly equal in power.)
That's honestly too bad, since that was the whole point of how that was supposed to work. Ah well.
And in theory, there are MORE kitsune feats anyway that work better for wizards or bards or rogues or whatever. Just because we only printed three in the Primer doesn't mean that tha'ts how many there will ALWAYS be.
Matrixryu |
Kevin Mack wrote:Actually the Kitsune entry (or the rest of the book) has no mention of feats=tails Also it just seems odd that a lvl 10 fighter can have more tails than a lvl 10 wizard or rogue (all of which in theory at least should be roughly equal in power.)That's honestly too bad, since that was the whole point of how that was supposed to work. Ah well.
And in theory, there are MORE kitsune feats anyway that work better for wizards or bards or rogues or whatever. Just because we only printed three in the Primer doesn't mean that tha'ts how many there will ALWAYS be.
I'll just go with the intent and increase my kitsune's number of tails ;) Besides, if omitting that was just a mistake it will probably just be added into the Advanced Race Guide or an errata.
Ævux |
Kevin Mack wrote:Actually the Kitsune entry (or the rest of the book) has no mention of feats=tails Also it just seems odd that a lvl 10 fighter can have more tails than a lvl 10 wizard or rogue (all of which in theory at least should be roughly equal in power.)That's honestly too bad, since that was the whole point of how that was supposed to work. Ah well.
And in theory, there are MORE kitsune feats anyway that work better for wizards or bards or rogues or whatever. Just because we only printed three in the Primer doesn't mean that tha'ts how many there will ALWAYS be.
Reviewing some stuff.. I noticed that only one other race has feats that you aren't suppose to get at level one. And that would be the drow.. who has character level requirements.
Normally your stance on racial feats seems be "make them available at level 1"
I'm not sure if you ever made any other racial feats like this.
Matrixryu |
Reviewing some stuff.. I noticed that only one other race has feats that you aren't suppose to get at level one. And that would be the drow.. who has character level requirements.
Normally your stance on racial feats seems be "make them available at level 1"
I'm not sure if you ever made any other racial feats like this.
Are you talking about "Brew Fleshcrafting Poison"? I think they could argue that it works in a similar way to the kitsune feats since it requires a certain caster level, not character level.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
Ævux |
Ah, but that is exactly my point. That is the last time you made racial feats that were designed not to be taken at level 1. All other racial feats you've made since then have been takable at level one, or required a previous feat (thus making them takeable at level 3)
For a non-racial feat.. Eagle Knight Candidate.
Matrixryu |
Hmm, pretty much fine with the feats being based on BAB for consistency sake as long as the BAB requirements don't go past +10 ;)
I just hope that none of the new feats will require a caster level, otherwise only a few classes will actually be able to get all of them.