I've got a character that I want to focus on being a team player. He's very much all about cooperation and teamwork. Eventually, he'll be able to share 3 teamwork feats with the party at once. (the three teamwork feats being Paired Opportunists, Broken Wing Gambit, and Seize the Moment)
So the goal is to share Attacks of Opportunity, I'll be providing them via trip/Vicious Stomp, causing them to provoke via Broken Wing Gambit, and crit'ing with Improved Crit/Seize the Moment.
For my first three levels I'm taking cavalier for tactician with the constable archetype. So on to my actual question.. I've narrowed it down to two orders. Order of the Seal and Order of the Scales.
Order of the Seals:
An order of the seal cavalier can make a free bull rush or trip combat maneuver anytime he takes the full-attack action against the target of his challenge. This free combat maneuver does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Skills: An order of the seal cavalier adds Disable Device (Dex) and Linguistics (Int) to his list of class skills. Whenever the cavalier uses Bluff to conceal information about his sworn charge, he receives a competence bonus equal to 1/2 his cavalier level (minimum +1).
At 2nd level, once per day the cavalier must select a location, or a secret that he has sworn to protect. If he chooses a location, he gains a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls when directly defending his charge. If he chooses a secret, he gains a +2 morale bonus on saving throws and opposed checks to resist revealing information about his charge. He gains these bonuses until he picks a new object, location, or secret to protect.
Order of the Scales:
Challenge: Whenever an order of the scales cavalier issues a challenge, he receives a +1 morale bonus on combat maneuvers and attacks of opportunity made against the target of his challenge. This bonus increases by 1 for every 4 levels the cavalier possesses.
Skills: An order of the scales cavalier adds Knowledge (local) (Int) and Linguistics (Int) to his list of class skills.
He gains a bonus equal to half his level (minimum +1) on Sense Motive checks to determine whether someone is bluffing and to determine whether a creature's behavior is being influenced by an enchantment.
At 2nd level, the cavalier receives Step Up as a bonus feat. He can use this feat while mounted by succeeding at a DC 15 Ride check, directing his mount to move rather than himself. The cavalier gains a +1 bonus to his CMD against attempts to tumble through squares he threatens. At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, this bonus increases by an additional +1.
I can't imagine many PFS scenarios where the second level ability for Seal will be of any use. Order of the Scales's second level ability I can see being useful (no mount, but I still have the feat without the mount).
The skills are pretty comparable, but even though I'll have bluff for BWG, I don't see seal's bluff bonus being useful as I'll eventually take levels in paladin. So Scales's has better skills, even though I don't see them being immensely useful.
So far I'm leading towards Scales because it has a far better 2nd level ability and the skills are basically comparable. But the kicker comes in with the challenge. Order of the Seals allows me to get a free trip attempt with every full attack vs my target, which synergizes really well with my build (vicious stomp and sharing AoOs). But I know trips reliability falls behind the higher level you get. Scales also synergizes well, just not as well, giving me a +1 to CMB and AoOs vs my challenge.
I'm still leaning towards Scales, because the challenge and the second level ability are useful vs Seal having just a very useful challenge. Thoughts?
How would you feel about Inquisitor instead of Cavalier? Solo Tactics, you see works with all your Teamwork Feats. Tactician only works for that 1 bonus Teamwork Feat.
Another way to go would be Eldritch Guardian Fighter, who get Familiars that automatically know all the Combat Feats you know, and many Teamwork Feats are Combat Feats. I was going to get a Protector Familiar and take Paired Opportunist, getting Attacks of Opportunity off the Familiar's Bodyguard Feat, but the FAQ you pointed out to me put the kabosh on that.
But, you could get say a Mauler Familiar as you take Outflank and Improved Critical or something.
Between the 2 Orders you presented, I'm gravitating towards Order of the Seal because of the Challenge Ability. I see a lot of Attacks of Opportunity coming off of those Bull Rushes and Trips. I like Attacks of Oppotunity. My favorite Teamwork Feat is Paired Opportunist.
How would you feel about Inquisitor instead of Cavalier? Solo Tactics, you see works with all your Teamwork Feats. Tactician only works for that 1 bonus Teamwork Feat.
Another way to go would be Eldritch Guardian Fighter, who get Familiars that automatically know all the Combat Feats you know, and many Teamwork Feats are Combat Feats. I was going to get a Protector Familiar and take Paired Opportunist, getting Attacks of Opportunity off the Familiar's Bodyguard Feat, but the FAQ you pointed out to me put the kabosh on that.
But, you could get say a Mauler Familiar as you take Outflank and Improved Critical or something.
I would feel that those don't at all match someone who is into "cooperation" and "teamwork" and "sharing teamwork feats with the party."
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Between the 2 Orders you presented, I'm gravitating towards Order of the Seal because of the Challenge Ability. I see a lot of Attacks of Opportunity coming off of those Bull Rushes and Trips. I like Attacks of Oppotunity. My favorite Teamwork Feat is Paired Opportunist.
It's only once a day though as a third level Cavalier only gets one daily use of his challenge ability. Outside of once a day Step Up is useful all times while the second level Order of the Seal ability is basically useless.
I had a Huntmaster Cav NPC who used Flagbearer, Teamwork shared feats and Dazzeling Display. He was all Bark while his Pets and Comrades were the Bite.
It was not for PFS but here is a look at the sheet might inspire something.
How would you feel about Inquisitor instead of Cavalier? Solo Tactics, you see works with all your Teamwork Feats. Tactician only works for that 1 bonus Teamwork Feat.
Another way to go would be Eldritch Guardian Fighter, who get Familiars that automatically know all the Combat Feats you know, and many Teamwork Feats are Combat Feats. I was going to get a Protector Familiar and take Paired Opportunist, getting Attacks of Opportunity off the Familiar's Bodyguard Feat, but the FAQ you pointed out to me put the kabosh on that.
But, you could get say a Mauler Familiar as you take Outflank and Improved Critical or something.
I would feel that those don't at all match someone who is into "cooperation" and "teamwork" and "sharing teamwork feats with the party."
Sure they do match with someone who is into cooperation and teamwork. Take Shield Slam. And take Greater Bull Rush. Everybody gets Attacks of Opportunity. With Paired Opportunist, you get an AoO, too. If you set it up right, your AoO can be another Bull Rush, looping Attacks of Opporutnity for the whole party for as long as their Combat Reflexes hold out.
Take Harder they Fall. If you have Solo Tactics, your Harder they Fall Feat will make it so that if any party member uses Aid Another to help your Attack Roll, you will be able to Bull Rush oversized creatures, and it's still party on!
You don't need to take a level in Cavalier to help the party with Teamwork Feats. You need imagination, an open mind, and roleplaying. Don't have to follow my advice if you don't want to, but remember it's earnest advice given in good faith.
claudekennilol wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Between the 2 Orders you presented, I'm gravitating towards Order of the Seal because of the Challenge Ability. I see a lot of Attacks of Opportunity coming off of those Bull Rushes and Trips. I like Attacks of Oppotunity. My favorite Teamwork Feat is Paired Opportunist.
It's only once a day though as a third level Cavalier only gets one daily use of his challenge ability. Outside of once a day Step Up is useful all times while the second level Order of the Seal ability is basically useless.
Tactician is only 1/day. And remember what I said before. Tactician only works on the 1 Bonus Teamwork Feat you select. You have to multiclass if you want to give out 3. You have take a level in Cavalier. You have to take 3 levels in Warpriest with the Divine Commander Archetype. You have to take 3 levels in the Holy Tactician Paladin Archetype. There might be other options.
claudekennilol wrote:
crit'ing with Improved Crit/Seize the Moment.
Warpriest is a solid way to go for this. You can 2 Weapon Fight with 2 Kukris, inflicting Sacred Weapon Damage instead of the 1d4 Kukri Damage, but still enjoying the Kukri's Crit Range of 18-20, expanded to 15-20 when you get Improved Crit. If you are Divine Commander, you can grant Seize the Moment (What do think of Outflank?) to your allies.
claudekennilol wrote:
This is for PFS.
The Feats you are selecting to share really work best if your allies all just happen to have Attack of Opportunity builds, and in PFS, that is not as common as you might think. Your Seize the Moment/Improved Crit really calls for your allies to have both AoO and Crit builds in the same characters: even rarer.
I find you can't rely on your fellow players in PFS to actually work as a team, forming up on opponents fairly randomly and never mind tactics. I tried something similar to what you are doing, taking Snake Fang and Combat Reflexes, and the number of Attacks of Opportunity I ended up actually giving out was disappointingly small.
As noted in my first post, I'm taking the constable archetype which basically lifts the limitation to ∞.
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And remember what I said before. Tactician only works on the 1 Bonus Teamwork Feat you select.
Yes, that's the basic-ness of the whole thing, I'm well aware of how everything works and am not asking rules questions.
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You have to multiclass if you want to give out 3.
I'm very aware that I need to multiclass, hence me saying that my first three levels are this class. This is completely outside the scope of what I asked and frankly not related to the thread at all
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Your Seize the Moment/Improved Crit really calls for your allies to have both AoO and Crit builds in the same characters: even rarer
Uh, that's not true at all. I'm relying on me having improved crit to give them AoOs.
This thread is about a specific question. If you could keep that in mind and not stray outside the bounds of that question it'd be much appreciated.
As noted in my first post, I'm taking the constable archetype which basically lifts the limitation to ∞.
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And remember what I said before. Tactician only works on the 1 Bonus Teamwork Feat you select.
Yes, that's the basic-ness of the whole thing, I'm well aware of how everything works and am not asking rules questions.
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You have to multiclass if you want to give out 3.
I'm very aware that I need to multiclass, hence me saying that my first three levels are this class. This is completely outside the scope of what I asked and frankly not related to the thread at all
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Your Seize the Moment/Improved Crit really calls for your allies to have both AoO and Crit builds in the same characters: even rarer
Uh, that's not true at all. I'm relying on me having improved crit to give them AoOs.
This thread is about a specific question. If you could keep that in mind and not stray outside the bounds of that question it'd be much appreciated.
My own brief dalliance with a teamwork centered character (and the terseness of that last exchange) make me want to help if I can. I'd be curious what the rest of your build looks like and whether or not you are considering Battle Herald. Obviously, it's easier to offer advice when presented with the full picture.
Also, while Order of the Scales has a nominally more useful second level ability, Seal gets Disable Device (Not a terrible place to sink points in Pathfinder, should one find a spare skill point) and the challenge ability is substantially better. You get a free maneuver, with no repercussions if you miss. If you don't build around it and maintain full BAB, it will eventually drop off in power, because CMB is a pain like that, but for a PFS character, you'll spend enough time in the low levels to cherish it. Since the goal seems to be specifically building around trip/Vicious Stomp, I'd definitely go with Seal. Worst case scenario: it's a free secondary trip attempt should the first one fail, which outranks the middling bonus dramatically, especially as morale bonuses are a dime a dozen.
[Mind you, tripping has its own problems when you encounter huge things, flying things, things that can not generally be tripped, and multi-legged beasties. But by the time that becomes a problem, you should have other tricks, so it shouldn't be an insurmountable problem.]
Kind of off the topic at hand, but with Paired Opportunists active you could also work by triggering AoO's off of a bullrush, which is valuable in that you can trigger a bullrush for free off a Shield Slam (and so potentially work it into weapon-and-shield combat), and bullrush doesn't run into the same problems that trip does. Of course, it means you don't get to trigger twice off a trip (though you might be able to trigger twice off multiple Shield Slams per round if playing the geometry right), but it also requires a lot less feats to pull off and allows for some interesting combat options.
The Feint and Bash weapon trick opens some interesting options as well, but it's pretty late to get for PFS.
HERE is a link to my original plan. I forgot to plan out my order at the time and am finally getting around to playing this character. One adjustment is that instead of using my lvl 7 feat as a filler and swapping it out for Battle Song of the People's Revolt at 10, to instead use a second level bard spell and retrain that feat to Tripping Strike at 10.
Hmm. Something that might be useful - hard to tell. Make him an Undine - they have a trait that lets teamwork feats that requires adjacent be used at 10' instead. And PFS just opened Undine as an always available option.
Hmm. Something that might be useful - hard to tell. Make him an Undine - they have a trait that lets teamwork feats that requires adjacent be used at 10' instead. And PFS just opened Undine as an always available option.
That's very interesting. I'd love to take that via Adopted, but unfortunately it doesn't look like that's a legal option for traits from Bastards of Golarion. I'm also kinda stuck on being human because I need the extra feat.
Kind of off the topic at hand, but with Paired Opportunists active you could also work by triggering AoO's off of a bullrush, which is valuable in that you can trigger a bullrush for free off a Shield Slam (and so potentially work it into weapon-and-shield combat), and bullrush doesn't run into the same problems that trip does. Of course, it means you don't get to trigger twice off a trip (though you might be able to trigger twice off multiple Shield Slams per round if playing the geometry right), but it also requires a lot less feats to pull off and allows for some interesting combat options.
The Feint and Bash weapon trick opens some interesting options as well, but it's pretty late to get for PFS.
I think that's an excellent idea, but Paired Opportunist + Greater Bull Rush has already been rejected by the OP.
Weapon of choice would either be a scimitar or a falchion (18-20 crit range for improved crit), depending on whether I want a shield or not.
Scimitar and Falchion both have that 18-20 Threat Range you want, but you want to incorporate Tripping, and neither is a Tripping Weapon.
I don't think there is a single, ideal weapon for Tripping and Critting.
I wrote:
I was looking for a Trip Weapon that has a good Threat Range, but as I said earlier, I was having trouble finding one. The best compromise I can find is the Khopesh, a Trip Weapon with a 19-20 Threat Range, but I'm not super happy with that, either.
You were thinking about using a Shield. Have you considered a Throwing Shield? That's a Trip Weapon. You can get a Blinkback Belt to retrieve it with. You can get a Quickdraw, Throwing Shield, so when it comes back to you, you can re-draw it as a Free Action. As long as you don't abuse the Free Action Attack Loop, you should be able to do things like 2 Weapon Attack with Scimitar and Shield Bash, Throw your Shield to Trip your opponent as a Free Action, then, when the Shield teleports back, re-draw it again as a Free Action, still enjoying your Shield Bonus to AC because all you've been doing is taking Free Actions. Or, if you Trip and opponent at Range, maybe you can use the Throwing Shield again to take your Attack of Opportunity off of Greater Trip, maybe. You might need to take Snap Shot feats or something.
I'm starting to think of the Throwing Shield as the ideal Tripping Weapon. Most people favor Reach Pole Arms for Tripping, such as the Horsechopper, but my biggest worry about attempting to Trip is the occasional catastrophic Trip Roll where you would get Tripped by your own Trip attempt or have to drop your Trip Weapon.
I wrote:
I personally prefer cheap, disposable Trip Weapons like Sickles. My thinking is that the point of having a Trip Weapon is that if you get Tripped by your own Trip Attempt, you can drop the weapon rather than get Tripped yourself. But if your Trip Weapon is a big weapon like a Horsechopper, you will miss it when it's gone. But if it's just a Sickle, Kama, or Light Flail, you just shrug your shoulders, pull out another one from your belt, and fight on. Plus, I want to make a character who uses a Sickle in one hand and a Warhammer in the other: he'll be the Soviet Union!
But if your Trip Weapon were a Throwing Weapon, there would be no worry about catastrophic Trip rolls Tripping yourself. And even after "dropping" your Thrown, Trip Weapon, it teleports back onto your Blinkback Belt.
Your Seize the Moment/Improved Crit really calls for your allies to have both AoO and Crit builds in the same characters: even rarer
claudekennilol wrote:
Uh, that's not true at all. I'm relying on me having improved crit to give them AoOs.
What I was getting at here is that if you are using Improved Crit, 18-20 Threat Range Weapons, and Seize the Moment to grant Attacks of Opportunity to your allies, your allies give Attacks of Opportunity back to you if whenever they score Crits themselves. If both those things happened, you could have looping AoOs. But unless your Ally has been built to score Crits, that will hardly ever happen. This is part of the reason
I wrote:
take say 2 levels in Fighter, Eldritch Gaurdian, get a Familiar with the Mauler Archetype, who then knows all the Combat Feats you know,
so you could more often and more reliably unlock those extra Crits and AoOs and keep the party going for your party. But you don't want to be the Beastmaster this time. That's cool.
I have run into problems with a build centered around giving other people Attacks of Opportunity. Unless the other PFS Players who just happen to show up at the PFS table also just happen to have brought AoO builds with them, they are unlikely to have taken Combat Reflexes, and they are unlikely to be able to receive more than 1 AoO from you/round.
I take your point: even granting everybody just 1 AoO per round is pretty cool. But as
I wrote:
I find you can't rely on your fellow players in PFS to actually work as a team, forming up on opponents fairly randomly and never mind tactics. I tried something similar to what you are doing, taking Snake Fang and Combat Reflexes, and the number of Attacks of Opportunity I ended up actually giving out was disappointingly small.
Yeah, I'm not counting on abusing AoOs. I just want multiple reliable ways to hand them out. So if I can give anyone a single extra attack in a round, that's more damage than would have been done without. I've already got a character where I abuse the crap out of teamwork feats all by myself, so that's why I'm avoiding that route.
