Pathfinder Battles—Heroes & Monsters

One thing you guys are missing.

Yes the figures are random, however unlike other CMGs, there are no rare/common/uncommon/ect

So the aftermarket will be set by us. Ironically the most desirable figures will probably ones that you would encounter a group of in game. Thats pretty much the opposite of other CMGs

Just announced! See the Press Release here! (It has some info on follow-up sets, as well as a FAQ you'll want to check out.)

We will be making the black dragon case premium available to those who order cases from paizo.com, and in other ways as well. Details on that will be announced later.

But if we order a case now, the option to get the Black Dragon will still be available to us later, right?

Delightful to see you dive into the partial vacuum left by D&D Minis, and I wish you all the luck in it. The price, sadly, is a bit too rich for my blood (and, yes, I do realize I could maybe cut back on my module purchases or something similar to make it work). I'll keep an eye on the secondary market, I guess, to see if any of the pieces plummet in value for reasons I can't guess.

On round bases: one other advantage is that you can see the map underneath the figure, even if only partially, which is often an advantage. (is that figure standing on the fire / wall / other terrain)

One more question, what size category is the black dragon, large or huge?

atheral wrote:

Just so I don't feel quite so insane for contemplating it.

If a case is pre ordered that charge dosen't hit until the Item ships right?

While we don't charge until it ships, there may be an authorization placed on your card which many banks show as "pending" and then hold the funds until the authorization expires (usually 3-5 business days).

FAQ on Authorizations

edit: ninja'd by deinol!

Thanks to both of you. I now have my christmas present to myself...now to see about that black dragon...

One thing you guys are missing.

Yes the figures are random, however unlike other CMGs, there are no rare/common/uncommon/ect

So the aftermarket will be set by us. Ironically the most desirable figures will probably ones that you would encounter a group of in game. Thats pretty much the opposite of other CMGs

There are different commonalities. We have worked with WizKids to assign them, and you'll find that the commons will be the figures most people will want multiples of: goblins, city watch, and the like. Figures that are less commonly encountered (but often appear in groups) will be uncommon. Named characters and unusual creatures will be rare.

I encourage you all to read the press release and FAQ linked in the first post. In addition to explaining why random packs are the only viable way to have a decent-sized selection of minis, it talks about how we will supplement them with non-random packs like the Beginner Box Heroes set. (We will also be selling single non-random minis here at paizo.com.)

Will all of the miniatures from the set be available as singles?

Anyone who is claiming GW has cheaper minis hasn't seen the latest GW price sheets. Also, isn't GW moving much of their production to resin?

Also, you have to assemble and paint Games Workshop's minis yourself.

Here's where I'm at.

The renders for both the beginner box set and these are gorgeous. We all know that. I am inclined to order a case of these bad boys, dragon included.

Thing is... I want to see the actual end product of the beginner box set in-hand before I commit to $300 on a butt-load of minis.

So.

1} Will this pre-order still be available as late as November? I'm in Canada and it takes a good three weeks for product to arrive here.

2} Will the option to tack on the black dragon still be available that late?

I realize that WizKids have to plan their production early and with this pile of goodness due so quickly I'm concerned about not getting in on the action. At the same time there's a lot of faith required to pull the trigger on this purchase.

Thanks for your time.

Finally a question I have always had about RPG minis in general: Why are they made with round bases when they are meant to be used on a square grid? Why not make them with a square base?

I like round bases because it means I can rotate the mini in any direction to make sure the fighter's sword doesn't run into the orc's shield. With square bases, I'm limited to 4 rotations for each mini. Round bases mean they can rotation-bump each other a little bit when I push them into position, without risking bending or breaking the pointy part.

Plus, not everyone uses a square grid--some use hexes, some use no grid at all.

If I order a Case can I get the Black Dragon since im not a retailer?

I understand the wishes of people for boxes of "mook" monsters like goblins, orcs, and skeletons.

However, I have more than enough orcs and skeletons. Goblins, I could see getting, because of the unique Pathfinder look.

I would rather the encounter packs were used for the "monsters" that make Pathfinder different. Let's see some pugwampis, sinspawn, and serpentfolk!

From the schedule announced, I think they could satisfy both needs.

Honestly, I have no problem with the price of the main set, or the randomization. I'm more concerned about the excess packaging. And I would want to see a set list, because once again, I already have enough minis of the creatures shown.

Now, the Runelords set is more likely to get me spending...

Maybe the market needs a new model. I hate to take FLGS out of it, but what it the minis were offered online (on through a catalog at stores) and you could choose how many you want of each. A serial number on the package will allow pickers to sort them, and maybe the price can drop the more you buy. The first set might be tough, but after that you should be able to judge the print runs on types of minis. Lot of orcs, skels, etc. less on the uniques. Just a thought.... The price is to high for me also. I like them, but could not afford to waste $4 per figure if I end up with a bunch of things I don't need.

shakespear wrote:

One thing you guys are missing.

Yes the figures are random, however unlike other CMGs, there are no rare/common/uncommon/ect

So the aftermarket will be set by us. Ironically the most desirable figures will probably ones that you would encounter a group of in game. Thats pretty much the opposite of other CMGs

There are different commonalities. We have worked with WizKids to assign them, and you'll find that the commons will be the figures most people will want multiples of: goblins, city watch, and the like. Figures that are less commonly encountered (but often appear in groups) will be uncommon. Named characters and unusual creatures will be rare.

You had me until you added commonalities. That serves no purpose. This isnt a Collectible mini game, its just collectible minis.

Why? this isnt a game. Unless......

Anyway, I'll buy what I want on the aftermarket and save a ton of money.

Here's where I'm at.

The renders for both the beginner box set and these are gorgeous. We all know that. I am inclined to order a case of these bad boys, dragon included.

Thing is... I want to see the actual end product of the beginner box set in-hand before I commit to $300 on a butt-load of minis.

So.

1} Will this pre-order still be available as late as November? I'm in Canada and it takes a good three weeks for product to arrive here.

2} Will the option to tack on the black dragon still be available that late?

I realize that WizKids have to plan their production early and with this pile of goodness due so quickly I'm concerned about not getting in on the action. At the same time there's a lot of faith required to pull the trigger on this purchase.

Thanks for your time.

We have actually seen the physical paint masters for the Beginner Box set, and WizKids tells us that they have techniques on their production line to ensure that the finished minis will look at least as good as the paint masters, if not slightly better. If that bears out, I think these will easily be the best-looking preprinted plastic fantasy miniatures ever produced.

The preorder will be available until the product ships... and after that, the price will be same. So no worries on waiting (unless we happen to sell out, which is not very likely).

And we'll make sure the black dragon offer (whatever it turns out to be) will be passed on to anybody who purchases a case from us (and we'll have other ways for folks to acquire that figure, too).

I fear that I'll have to start saving up. A lot, given the oversea shipping costs.

The random element doesn't bother me too much, as I understand it is a very necessary feature to keep the prepainted thing working properly. However, I'll wait till I see the complete list (and get an idea of the common/uncommon/rare distribution) before I place my order for the case. 'cause I want that friggin' dragon!

And we'll make sure the black dragon offer (whatever it turns out to be) will be passed on to anybody who purchases a case from us (and we'll have other ways for folks to acquire that figure, too).

You guys are awesome!

Hoo boy.

My immediate reaction to this news: THIS IS AWESOME.

My second reaction, after reading and pondering: I really don't want to go broke buying miniatures again.

I have spent an obscene amount of cash on minis from the Star Wars and D&D lines produced by WotC over the last eight years. I still buy D&D pieces on secondary market for when I need to fill a gap in my tabletop game. I'm loathe to do it all over again.

However, despite that misgiving, the idea of having sculpts for some iconic Paizo monsters and villains - and the obvious implications of the Runelords set slated for next June - is very appealing.

I understand all too well that there is no way to make money off a product like this without randomizing the miniatures, but it's still sort of disappointing.

The ripple effect you are likely to have on the secondary market is also going to be interesting to watch - I wonder if former DDM collectors like myself will be flooding the market with their old minis to rake in cash for the new stuff in the coming months. (Maybe a trade credit program would be in order for the online store, one where you can trade DDM stuff for new Pathfinder stuff directly through Paizo?)

Still, this is very, very cool news. If these product lines succeed, Paizo will have effectively toppled Wizards of the Coast as the industry leader - especially because WotC's flagship game focuses on tactical miniatures combat, but often calls for miniatures which are no longer in production. So you won't just make sales off PFRPG players, but 4E players as well.

I do have one request: if you do develop a separate miniatures game to accompany the product and boost collectibility, please make it less complex than the D&D Miniatures game was. Give us everything we need to play a given piece, beyond the basic "warband" construction, order of play, movement, and combat rules, on the stat card for that mini. To this day, the main reason I don't bother trying to get folks interested in playing DDM is that the rule book for it was so big that it felt like learning a whole different RPG, and it had to be referenced almost constantly during play.

We have actually seen the physical paint masters for the Beginner Box set, and WizKids tells us that they have techniques on their production line to ensure that the finished minis will look at least as good as the paint masters, if not slightly better. If that bears out, I think these will easily be the best-looking preprinted plastic fantasy miniatures ever produced.

The preorder will be available until the product ships... and after that, the price will be same. So no worries on waiting (unless we happen to sell out, which is not very likely).

And we'll make sure the black dragon offer (whatever it turns out to be) will be passed on to anybody who purchases a case from us (and we'll have other ways for folks to acquire that figure, too).

Thanks Vic. My money is provisionally yours. I'll pre-order a case (because I'm mental) in the next week or so, pretty much because I trust your judgement. If the masters were good enough you're speaking highly of them, I'll trust that.

The early Star Wars miniatures sets had square bases and, to me, they just feel bulkier. I'd rather have round bases.

The early random Star Wars minis from WotC were on round bases for years. In fact, I believe that only the special 30th anniversary minis were on square bases.

One more question, what size category is the black dragon, large or huge?

So I guess you guys don't know yet?

I'll add my voice to the "please have non-random boxes available too" crowd.

What I have never understood with this concept is that it seems surefire that some minis will go unused/unwanted, and instead of being more careful with what gets made/produced, it gets randomized?

Also a question - how "thick" is the paint on the wizkidz minis generally? As in, can they stand repainting/extra touches without losing all the detail, or would I have to paintstrip them?

Jeremy Mcgillan wrote:

One more question, what size category is the black dragon, large or huge?

So I guess you guys don't know yet?

The press release says it's on a 3" base, so Huge.

Jeremy Mcgillan wrote:

One more question, what size category is the black dragon, large or huge?

So I guess you guys don't know yet?

Three inch base, says Huge to me.

I am interested. The Preview minis look tight. As a Heroclix player, I know Wizkids does a great job with these prepainted minis. I am going to get with my group and see if we all want to pitch in $50 for a case.

I do have a couple of questions:

Can Brick and Mortar stores preorder this from Alliance?

How much with the Black Dragon be?

The first set might be tough, but after that you should be able to judge the print runs on types of minis. Lot of orcs, skels, etc. less on the uniques.

The problem isn't being able to predict sales, it's being able to justify the costs of a low-volume product.

Manufacturing costs are tied strongly to volume, because, after all, the mold costs exactly same whether you make 100 figures or 10000 from it. And since the mold is one of the most expensive parts of the process, you have to spread that cost out over a large number of figures. Think of it this way:

I want to make two minis. One of them will sell 10,000 copies*. The other one, just 1000 copies*. For each, the sculpt and mold costs the same amount of money—let's say $2000*. Let's say that both figures are pretty much the same size and complexity, and have a similar number of paint operations, so that each individual miniature that comes out of the mold costs a similar amount in plastic, paint, and packaging.

Now, in the first case, I can spread my $2000 sculpt and mold costs over 10,000 units, so that adds twenty cents to the plastic, paint, and packaging cost of each mini. But in the second case, I can only spread that cost over 1000 units, so it adds two DOLLARS to the cost of that mini. And that's the cost to the manufacturer, before the product is marked up by a distributor and then a retailer.

By bringing the concept of relative rarity to the mix, you can instead average out those mold costs over all of the figures in the run—maybe you can get the mold cost per mini for the entire run down to something more like 30 or 40 cents*, and suddenly, you have 40 minis that you can reasonably sell.

*: These numbers are examples only, and if they reflect real-world numbers, they do so only coincidentally.

Jeremy Mcgillan wrote:

One more question, what size category is the black dragon, large or huge?

So I guess you guys don't know yet?

I am pretty sure that it is huge.

-Lisa

Is the case factory sealed?

-Skeld

Can Brick and Mortar stores preorder this from Alliance?

WizKids will be soliciting it to Alliance shortly, if they haven't already.

How much with the Black Dragon be?

We don't have any more details on the Black Dragon at this time.

You had me until you added commonalities. That serves no purpose. This isnt a Collectible mini game, its just collectible minis.

Why? this isnt a game. Unless......

Anyway, I'll buy what I want on the aftermarket and save a ton of money.

You understand that the very aftermarket you plan on going to is the reason that commonalities exist, right?

Say you have a three-mini set (for the sake of simplification). You have a lich, a goblin, and a human rogue.

Let's say you manufacture equal numbers of each - so 100 liches, 100 goblins, 100 human rogues.

Let's say you have a Typical DM. Typical DM wants ten goblins (because encounters call for hordes of goblins), five human rogues (because having a few human rogues on hand is a good idea), and one lich (because liches are practically an entire encounter unto themselves, and you'll probably never see more than one at a time).

Let's say you have 20 Typical DMs, and they go to the aftermarket to buy exactly what they're looking for: 10 goblins, 5 rogues, and 1 lich each.

They get their liches, no problem. 20 liches are bought, and the aftermarket retailer has 80 liches left, and he will never get rid of them because no one needs more than one lich.

They get their rogues, just barely. They all have exactly the number of rogues they want, and the aftermarket retailer has sold through his stock.

They don't get their goblins, because there are only 100 goblins to go around and all of the DMs combined need 200. The aftermarket retailer knows that goblins are going to be in demand, so he raises the price.

The end result?

The aftermarket retailer has 80 liches he will never sell, and your Typical DM only has a 50% chance of getting the goblins he wants, and he's forced to pay exorbitant prices for them because there aren't enough to go around.

This is what happens when your set doesn't use varying commonalities. If you did use commonalities, you could manufacture 200 goblins, 100 rogues, and 20 liches, and they would all sell (and the lich figures would probably get extra-special treatment with their paint jobs to reflect their rarer status).

So, really, stop whining about commonalities. You know better, now.

Is the case factory sealed?

-Skeld

Any case you purchase from us will be.

We've added a mockup image of the booster box. It's very much subject to change before release.

Vic Wertz wrote:

Just announced! See the Press Release here! (It has some info on follow-up sets, as well as a FAQ you'll want to check out.)

We will be making the black dragon case premium available to those who order cases from paizo.com, and in other ways as well. Details on that will be announced later.

Will this be available as a subscription?

From the FAQ on the Press Release page:

Q: Will Pathfinder Battles fantasy miniatures be available as part of a Paizo subscription?

A: Pathfinder Battles fantasy miniatures are produced by WizKids under license from Paizo, and are not currently part of any Paizo subscription. That said, Paizo understands that many of its customers would appreciate a way to subscribe to these miniatures, and is currently exploring options to offer a subscription or similar service.

Today is August 1st. There are ~18 weeks between now and December. If I save $14/week, I can buy a case (shipping included).

-Skeld

Are these minis going to be to scale with 25-28mm other minis?

They're pretty much inline with other fantasy minis produced in the last decade. Medium figures are on 1" round bases.

I would like to thank Paizo for listening to players and finding a way to deliver prepainted miniatures without breaking themselves or skimping on quality.

David Wickham wrote:

Is there any Pathfinder Battles game in the works?

Yes! It's called the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game!

We do not currently have any concrete plans regarding a separate miniatures game. Is that something you'd like to see?

I would like to see this, and I'd like to see it utilize the same minis.

(AND THANK YOU! You guys rock!)

We have actually seen the physical paint masters for the Beginner Box set, and WizKids tells us that they have techniques on their production line to ensure that the finished minis will look at least as good as the paint masters, if not slightly better. If that bears out, I think these will easily be the best-looking preprinted plastic fantasy miniatures ever produced.

The preorder will be available until the product ships... and after that, the price will be same. So no worries on waiting (unless we happen to sell out, which is not very likely).

And we'll make sure the black dragon offer (whatever it turns out to be) will be passed on to anybody who purchases a case from us (and we'll have other ways for folks to acquire that figure, too).

IF that bears out (a really big if considering who it is coming from too, in my opinion) then the price might not be quite so unseemly.

Are certain miniatures going to be rarer than others?

(Maybe a trade credit program would be in order for the online store, one where you can trade DDM stuff for new Pathfinder stuff directly through Paizo?)

We've been buying D&D Minis singles for store credit for a long, long time.

Hmmm....very interesting. The pricing means I'll probably be very selective if I buy any, however.

Are certain miniatures going to be rarer than others?

See above

Two questions:

1) Is this a special pre-order price?

2) Will there be a list of all of the 40 minis soon? It'd be nice to know what I have a shot of getting by buying some packs.

Thanks!

I just wanted to say that while I do understand the industry reasons cited here and in the FAQ, I think that the non-collectible aspect has somehow escaped you guys. 'Rares' v 'commons' only matters when they have relative strengths and/or use cases. Minis have none of that.

Still, I love your company and wish you all the luck in the world.

Two questions:

1) Is this a special pre-order price?

2) Will there be a list of all of the 40 minis soon? It'd be nice to know what I have a shot of getting by buying some packs.

Thanks!

This is standard pricing.

WizKids likes to release figure lists much closer to the release of the product.

I cannot be more pleased to hear this announcement as a player and GM.

I am also very excited for Paizo and this significant step into the market. VERY cool guys. While I don't know the specifics of the time that Lisa and Vic spent on all of this -- it has been clear throughout the past year from Vic's posts that this issue has been at or near the top of his priority list for a LONG time.

Best of luck to you all.

Power Word Unzip wrote:

(Maybe a trade credit program would be in order for the online store, one where you can trade DDM stuff for new Pathfinder stuff directly through Paizo?)

We've been buying D&D Minis singles for store credit for a long, long time.

What about Star Wars minis?

'Rares' v 'commons' only matters when they have relative strengths and/or use cases. Minis have none of that.

In my campaign, knife-wielding female half-elf rogues tend to arrive alone, but kobolds tend to show up in packs.

Vic Wertz wrote:

Power Word Unzip wrote:

(Maybe a trade credit program would be in order for the online store, one where you can trade DDM stuff for new Pathfinder stuff directly through Paizo?)

We've been buying D&D Minis singles for store credit for a long, long time.

What about Star Wars minis?

We don't have enough demand to support that.

Sgmendez wrote:

Vic Wertz wrote:

Power Word Unzip wrote:

(Maybe a trade credit program would be in order for the online store, one where you can trade DDM stuff for new Pathfinder stuff directly through Paizo?)

We've been buying D&D Minis singles for store credit for a long, long time.

What about Star Wars minis?

We don't have enough demand to support that.

Just thought I would ask cause I have tons of those that I don't use. And I mean hundreds.