Pathfinder Battles: Heroes & Monsters Brick

3.60/5 (based on 47 ratings)

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Pathfinder RPG combat comes to life on your tabletop with Heroes & Monsters, the debut release in the new Pathfinder Battles prepainted miniatures line! Produced in cooperation with Paizo Publishing, Heroes & Monsters presents a fascinating array of 40 beautifully painted miniatures perfect for use with the Pathfinder RPG or any fantasy miniatures game! From the brave Gnome Fighter to the mighty evil lich, Heroes & Monsters offers a wide range of player characters and dungeon denizens that make a perfect start to your Pathfinder Battles collection!

  • Heroes & Monsters Standard Boosters contain 1 Medium or 2 Small miniatures.
  • Heroes & Monsters Large Boosters contain 1 Large miniature.
  • Heroes & Monsters Bricks contain 16 Standard Boosters and 3 Large Boosters.
  • Heroes & Monsters Cases contain 4 Bricks (64 Standard Boosters and 12 Large Boosters).

Purchasers should get no to very few duplicate figures in a brick. Buyers who purchase factory-sealed cases should get a nearly complete set of figures. (As with any randomized product, collation is not guaranteed.)

Begin your Pathfinder Battles collection today! The Heroes & Monsters of the Pathfinder world await!

See the press release for questions and answers about this exciting new product line.


Heroes & Monsters Set List

CommonUncommon
1  Goblin Warrior (Red)
2  Goblin Hero (Red)
3  Goblin Warrior (Blue)
4  Goblin Hero (Blue)
5  Orc Brute
6  Orc Warrior
7  Skeleton
8  Watch Guard
9  Watch Officer
10  Lizardfolk Champion
11  Zombie
12  Giant Spider
13  Wolf
14  Venomous Snake
15  Mummy
16  Human Rogue
17  Human Ranger
18  Elf Wizard
19  Half-Elf Cleric
20  Dwarf Fighter
21  Human Druid
22  Gnome Fighter
23  Dire Rat
Rare
24  Gargoyle
25  Half-Orc Barbarian
26  Spectre
27  Seelah, Human Paladin
28  Werewolf
29  Medusa
30  Minotaur
31  Ogre
32  Troll
33  Ettin
34  Chimera
35  Manticore
36  Giant Caveweaver Spider
37  Frost Giant
38  Succubus
39  Lich
40  Vampire

Additional Product Images


(click to enlarge)
WizKidsHeroesAndMonsters-PFB1 WizKidsHeroesAndMonsters-PFB3 PFB4 WizKidsHeroesAndMonsters-PFB5
Medusa Lich seelah orc
092311_EttinPreview 092311_RangerPreview 093011_GoblinPreview
(go to main product page)

Product Availability

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Are there errors or omissions in this product information? Got corrections? Let us know at store@paizo.com.

WZK70484


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Average product rating:

3.60/5 (based on 47 ratings)

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Too Much $$$

2/5

I hate to be a bad mouth, and I am honestly not motivated here by vehemence. This figs just cost way too much for what you get ESPECIALLY because they are random and plastic.

I am not saying there is anything better out there - as far as I can tell there isn't. My local store is 1 of 2 significant stores, in a metro area of around half a million folks. The store I frequent has yet to sell out of the ORIGINAL , the 2nd line has barely sold at all, and he has refused to order anything else. It just doesn't sell. And its not placement - they are quite actually the first and last thing you see when you enter his store.

When I bought DND mini's the price for randoms eventually became to high for me and I was able to still get the minis I wanted by buying singles. So far, everything I have seen indicates the singles market is incredibly over-inflated.

So, quality wise they are top notch. The paint jobs and sculpts are in every way superior to what I have seen anywhere else here in America. There are foreign companies doing comparable work in similar markets, but that is irrelevant to this review.

For me though, the final thing comes down to money. They are too expensive.


Individual figures

2/5

I would be more willing to buy these if one could select individual figures desiered rather than getting a "Grab Bag (box)" of unknowns.


Vibrant, but Overpriced

2/5

I didn't even want to buy any originally because of the price, but I decided to grab 3 small (1 medium or 2 small figures each) and 1 large (1 large figure) boxes. This cost me $19 before taxes and I ended up with 1 large and 3 medium figures. When D&D Miniatures was producing boosters I would pay $15 or $16 before taxes to get 8 figures and I'm pretty sure there was 1 large per booster.

I then placed them side by side with the D&D Miniatures I have and I would say the quality is about the same, but the Pathfinder minis are more vibrant. The D&D minis though each came with a stat card and could be used to play a separate minis tactical game.

Even if I were to get 2 small figures in each of the small boxes of Pathfinder minis I purchased I'd have 7 figures. For $3 or $4 less I would have 1-4 more figures and I never remember seeing a full booster of D&D minis as small figures, maybe half at most.

I really like the Pathfinder RPG books, but I'm sorry, I won't be buying any more minis because I think they're overpriced. Maybe I'm just behind times though because I know the D&D minis are not being produced any more, but I can still buy singles for $1 each for commons and uncommons.


1-2 random for HOW MUCH!

1/5

For random minis, the pricing is obscene. Tack on a buck and let me know what I am Getting. The local store has yet to sell out of the Original Brick. And from what I have seen, the sculpts and painting is so sub-par.
As much as I hate the Paper Minis, I will take those over these in a heartbeat.


Excellent Beginning Run.

5/5

I have just gotten into my box set that I recieved (in no specific order). Individual Review will be added later.

Box 1:

Frost Giant
Ogre
Troll
Skeleton
Venomous Snake
Spectre
Red Goblin Hero
Red Goblin Warrior
Giant Spider
Zombie
Watch Officer
Watch Guard
Dire Rat
Medusa
Half-Elf Cleric
Vampire
Human Rogue
Wolf
Gnome Fighter
Human Ranger
Seelah, Human Paladin

Box 2:

Manticore
Ogre
Troll
Succubus
Human Rogue
Blue Goblin Warrior
Blue Goblin Warrior
Blue Goblin Hero
Blue Goblin Hero
Red Goblin Warrior
Red Goblin Hero
Gnome Fighter
Dire Rat
Skeleton
Human Ranger
Spectre
Seelah, Human Paladin
Lizardfolk Champion
Watch Guard
Medusa
Venomous Snake
Giant Spider
Orc Warrior

Box 3:

Ettin
Minotaur
Chimera
Orc Warrior
Zombie
Giant Spider
Watch Officer
Werewolf
Lizardfolk Champion
Wolf
Mummy
Elf Wizard
Half-Elf Cleric
Blue Goblin Hero
Blue Goblin Warrior
Half-Orc Barbarian
Dwarf Fighter
Lich
Human Druid
Gargoyle

Box 4:

Ettin
Giant Caveweaver Spider
Troll
Spectre
Zombie
Mummy
Elf Wizard
Human Druid
Wolf
Watch Officer
Giant Spider
Medusa
Blue Goblin Warrior
Blue Goblin Hero
Half-Elf Cleric
Skeleton
Werewolf
Venomous Snake
Succubus
Orc Brute

Final Count:

Red Goblin Warrior x2
Red Goblin Hero x2
Blue Goblin Warrior x4
Blue Goblin Hero x4
Orc Brute
Orc Warrior x2
Skeleton x3
Watch Guard x2
Watch Officer x3
Lizardfolk Champion x2
Zombie x3
Giant Spider x4
Wolf x3
Venomous Snake x3
Mummy x2
Human Rogue x2
Human Ranger x2
Elf Wizard x2
Half-Elf Cleric x3
Dwarf Fighter
Human Druid x2
Gnome Fighter x2
Dire Rat x2
Gargoyle
Half-Orc Barbarian
Spectre x3
Seelah, Human Paladin x2
Werewolf x2
Medusa x3
Minotaur
Ogre x2
Troll x3
Ettin x2
Chimera
Manticore
Giant Caveweaver Spider
Frost Giant
Succubus x2
Lich
Vampire

84 Minis, out a minimum 76, and was able to get the full collection. I can safely say that I am over all pleased, though I was hoping for more humanoid opponents, but can't be to grumpy since I did get a full collection, with a few doubles of key members. Add to this the ones Irecieved from random Store Boughts as well as a minion order from this site and the six-man Evil Booster and you have a good assortment of minis to choose from.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
ThatWeirdGeckoGuy wrote:
DJ Rogue wrote:
offering a fair product at a fair price and making a profit is pure crazy talk.
I don't move nearly the inventory dollars you do, but I manage to run my own business with a collectible product that is fragile and PERISHABLE, and I work for a national company selling food, which is also fragile and perishable. If tons of people can move a fragile product (with a shelf life) at a fair price and make huge profits, one would think you could move plastic in the same way.

Of course, your fragile shelf life product has a much, much larger markup than these plastic figures. Yes, there is plenty of labor involved. And not all geckos make it to adulthood. But once you have some breeding stock and aquariums you are mostly paying pennies for crickets to feed them. So I'm not surprised you can make huge profits that way. It's a total different market though.

If it were easy enough to make pre-painted plastic miniatures in a non-random manner cheaply, I am certain that any number of existing companies who are in the marketplace would do so. Even WotC couldn't do so, and they've got the brand and market presence to try.


Jeremiziah wrote:

Guys -

What do you want Paizo to do? This is their business model. It's not your business model. You're not in this business.

Technically it is WizKids' business model apparently. And even more technically it is their collectible miniature game business model. Which I don't possibly see a future for in plastic statuettes that don't have a collectible game based around them, which Paizo hopefully considered very closely.


Finally got to the end of this thread. :-)

First, congrats on the new line Paizo. I hope you and WizKids are very successful with it.

Second, from what I have seen, I believe the products themselves should be of excellent quality and great for use in play at the game table.

Third, I fully understand the need for the random/rarity model and support it and have many, many DDM minis to prove my support for the model. I like how it allows for a lot of different types of minis to be produced and enables an after market that lets you get a lot of common mini inexpensively while still being able to get rarer items if you want to pay.

Fourth, though I like the random model, I do find two things about the first set coming out at least that I don't like. Others have said it above, the single random mini in a booster is a negative to me. At $4 it's just higher than I'd like to see for a random product. It also lacks a lot of the fun factor of having a box of 5-8 minis that I can open. I worry if I pick up 6 of these single boosters I'll get only two unique figures. With the DDM boxes, at least I knew if I got two boosters of 8 minis I was going to get at least 8 distinct minis. The second item is the price of the case at $275, while leading to a better $2.55/mini price, is still about 1.5 to 2 times what I paid for a lot of my cases of DDM. Now if the case is very likely to have all of the figures in the set, that might not be too bad. But it still feels considerably higher. To be fair, prices have gone up some since the early DDM sets came out. When DDM started it was $10 for an 8 mini booster. But $15 for 5 minis seems like it would be doable in today's market. Especially without the added development cost of the mini game and included stat card.

Fifth, just wondering, what will be the real price you'll be able to buy a case for, if you don't buy the case from Paizo? Will there be miniature retailers selling cases at 10%-30% off of MSRP? I guess time will tell. I kind of hope so because I'd like to get a case. I'd like free shipping too. :-) Worst case, I'm sure they'll be a few singles I'll want to pick up.

L

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

DJ Rogue wrote:


And you're right I don't have any experience in selling pre-painted plastic toys. My business is as a transportation supervisor for a Fortune 500 company. I handle literally over a million dollars of revenue a day.

Wait...does that mean you drive a truck? Or you supervise the people who drive the trucks? How do you handle revenue in a literal sense given that it is an abstract concept with no physical form?

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Lordofkhybr wrote:
I fear I will not be able to find space in my budget for Ultimate Combat because of this announcement. I will not be giving anymore money to Paizo until they realize how absolute b*@%&!@# random miniatures are. Hear that Paizo. That`s a formerly loyal customer talking with his wallet. I had such faith in you and you dashed it upon the rocks.

Huh. Looks like it was nerdrage and not sarcasm after all.


Jeremiziah wrote:

Guys -

What do you want Paizo to do? This is their business model. It's not your business model. You're not in this business.

What good is it doing anybody for you to come here and take a dump in their product thread? This is all negotiated stuff, there's a contract and everything, I'm sure. Nobody's renegotiating due to the ire of a few guys on the Paizo website, especially since many people here have stated their satisfaction with the situation and expressed their intention to buy cases of the product.

I'd buy 10 PF-styled orcs for $40 right now, today, if I could, by the way.

I'm not sure there's a problem here, other than you not getting what you want the way you want it. And that's only a problem for you, not for everybody else, and not for Paizo. Take a deep breath. Let those of us that are excited about popping boxes of random minis be excited. We've waited a long time for this, this is our moment. If you're not going to buy any, just say so and be done with it.

You don't have to pretend to have all the answers to marketing questions, and acting like you do just makes you look silly, unless you're a marketing executive in the collectibles industy. Are you? No?Then you lack credibility. I get that it hurts to be told that, but it's true.

Vic doesn't lack credibility. Lisa certainly doesn't. I'm going to go ahead and trust them on this one.

So go on, vote with your wallet. Going on and on and on and on and on and on about it isn't going to change anything, though. Really. I promise.

I would like to personally welcome you to the internet. Where people go on and on about things they cant change.

But in all seriousness. This thread is specifically about both the announcement of the miniatures line and the press release. People have the right to talk about their views on the subject within the thread. Some people have gotten hostile, but most I think are providing their input on a geniunely difficult challenge of producing these kinds of miniatures.

Personally I definately plan to vote with my wallet, and I by no means feel that those who are excited are wrong to do so. Please feel free to create a thread of 'what mini are you most hoping will be in the first set' or 'how many bricks will you buy?'. I wish you all luck and hope you enjoy the miniature line. But I definately thing it should be ok to express opinions on the direction of the product and possibly ask for something different in addition to, or following it.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Considering that Lisa Stevens was on WotC marketing team when they launched Magic: The Gathering, I have utmost faith in every business decision she makes, especially in regard to randomized collectible things.

Paizo Employee Senior Software Developer

I removed a post. Be as critical as you like of our business model, but please do not use terms like "rape" unless you are talking about sexual assault.


Gorbacz wrote:
Considering that Lisa Stevens was on WotC marketing team when they launched Magic: The Gathering, I have utmost faith in every business decision she makes, especially in regard to randomized collectible things.

I would like to stress again my previous comparison. D&D Minis/Clix/whatever were, regardless of how tenuously, collectible mini games. These statuettes are to those other miniatures what baseball cards are to M:tG. There is no collecting incentive in the current market [addendum]. You cannot compare or market like M:tG or HeroClix because these have no internal incentive to get people to buy them. Their sole purpose is creature representation in a third-party game which is not a driving force to buy blind-boxed random singles.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Cartigan wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Considering that Lisa Stevens was on WotC marketing team when they launched Magic: The Gathering, I have utmost faith in every business decision she makes, especially in regard to randomized collectible things.
I would like to stress again my previous comparison. D&D Minis/Clix/whatever were, regardless of how tenuously, collectible mini games. These statuettes are to those other miniatures what baseball cards are to M:tG. There is no collecting incentive. You cannot compare or market like M:tG or HeroClix because they have no internal incentive to get people to buy them. Their sole purpose is creature representation in a third-party game which is not a driving force to buy blind-boxed random singles.

Given that the brand name is "Pathfinder Battles" it screams "DDM returns" to me. But we have to wait and see.

Scarab Sages

Gary Teter wrote:
I removed a post. Be as critical as you like of our business model, but please do not use terms like "rape" unless you are talking about sexual assault.

Wow - and I just wanted to apologize that my post (which was not the one Gary deleted) could sound more grumpy then it is meant.

I'll do anyway. Sorry all (especially TWGG), please forgive me, that sounded more grumpy then I wanted. I'm burning up with fever - not with rage, but that seems to influence my posts quite similar - please don't take it personal.


Gorbacz wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Considering that Lisa Stevens was on WotC marketing team when they launched Magic: The Gathering, I have utmost faith in every business decision she makes, especially in regard to randomized collectible things.
I would like to stress again my previous comparison. D&D Minis/Clix/whatever were, regardless of how tenuously, collectible mini games. These statuettes are to those other miniatures what baseball cards are to M:tG. There is no collecting incentive. You cannot compare or market like M:tG or HeroClix because they have no internal incentive to get people to buy them. Their sole purpose is creature representation in a third-party game which is not a driving force to buy blind-boxed random singles.
Given that the brand name is "Pathfinder Battles" it screams "DDM returns" to me. But we have to wait and see.

D&D Minis were a collectible card and mini game. No matter how tenuously. Even when they killed that and released their new 4e characters, they included unique and collectible power cards. These are neither a collectible game nor have any other sort of collectible attachment that would encourage frantic collecting.


Lordofkhybr wrote:
I fear I will not be able to find space in my budget for Ultimate Combat because of this announcement. I will not be giving anymore money to Paizo until they realize how absolute b@~#&!#& random miniatures are. Hear that Paizo. That`s a formerly loyal customer talking with his wallet. I had such faith in you and you dashed it upon the rocks.

As someone who has rejected PF as a game choice, I would suggest that there are many legitimate reasons to not choose to play it. This is not one of them. If you are not interested in this product, do not purchase it, but to stop purchasing game products that you would otherwise be interested in as an effort to "show them" is "cutting off the nose to spite the face". I will not purchasing the random boosters, but I will certainly look at the secondary market to see if any of the commons make it into a price I feel comfortable with (that would tend to be less than $2 a miniature, usually $1 or less). I would suggest everyone act from a position of self-interest. Don't purchase products to "help" the company, and don't not purchase products to "show" the company.

@Cartigan: The DMM game is dead and buried and nobody still plays it except for a couple of people in their basement. And yet those miniatures that were rare are still priced at fantastically (no pun intended) high prices. Rarity itself is reason enough for high prices, or at least that is what I learned in my econ classes (Supply-Demand curves).


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Cartigan wrote:
Jeremiziah wrote:

Guys -

What do you want Paizo to do? This is their business model. It's not your business model. You're not in this business.

Technically it is WizKids' business model apparently. And even more technically it is their collectible miniature game business model. Which I don't possibly see a future for in plastic statuettes that don't have a collectible game based around them, which Paizo hopefully considered very closely.

It does have a game based on it, Pathfinder RPG. Seriously, GMs want a wide assortment of models for use in games. Not just the 6 good ones for whatever clix army you are trying to build. A role-player is much more likely to keep all of the minis they acquire than to ditch the extras on eBay.

If the D&D miniatures game was such a huge pusher of miniatures, why did Wizards stop supporting it half way through the miniatures line? I think DDM's biggest problem was their tendency to include random minis that very few people would ever use. (Half-illithid guy with knife, I'm looking at you.) If WizKids miniature list is 90% stuff people will actually use in game, this will be an astounding success.


6 people marked this as a favorite.
Lordofkhybr wrote:
I fear I will not be able to find space in my budget for Ultimate Combat because of this announcement. I will not be giving anymore money to Paizo until they realize how absolute b*$*&*#! random miniatures are. Hear that Paizo. That`s a formerly loyal customer talking with his wallet. I had such faith in you and you dashed it upon the rocks.

I said the same thing when McDonalds refused to sell me dark meat chicken McNuggets. I told the manager, "If you won't sell dark McNuggets I'm never coming back. In fact, I had budgeted lunch here today but I'm going to Burger King instead."

I haven't been back since and whenever I go to lunch I buy it at burger king but eat it in the McDonalds parking lot and hold up a sign protesting the lack of dark McNuggets.

If you send a message you have to make it loud and clear.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Cartigan wrote:
Their sole purpose is creature representation in a third-party game which is not a driving force to buy blind-boxed random singles.

I think you underestimate the driving force that an RPG can be. I own around 100 DDM figures. The only reason I bought them were for use in D&D and Pathfinder. I know several dozen gamers at our university RPG club. Many of them purchased DDM figures. I know of none that actually used them for the silly miniatures game.

Sounds like a driving force to buy miniatures to me.


deinol wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
Jeremiziah wrote:

Guys -

What do you want Paizo to do? This is their business model. It's not your business model. You're not in this business.

Technically it is WizKids' business model apparently. And even more technically it is their collectible miniature game business model. Which I don't possibly see a future for in plastic statuettes that don't have a collectible game based around them, which Paizo hopefully considered very closely.
It does have a game based on it, Pathfinder RPG.

Does it? What benefit does buying a troll mini give me over buying a dire rat mini? Or pulling a Cleric out of a box over pulling a succubus? Any? Do I get any mechanical benefit in the Pathfinder RPG game for doing that?

If you are confused with my line of questioning then it is clear why you don't understand my point.

Quote:
Seriously, GMs want a wide assortment of models for use in games. Not just the 6 good ones for whatever clix army you are trying to build.

Which makes random blind-boxed singles a TERRIBLE business plan unless their plan is to get people to buy even MORE marked up non-random open-box singles.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

6 people marked this as a favorite.
Cartigan wrote:
Their sole purpose is creature representation in a third-party game which is not a driving force to buy blind-boxed random singles.

Your assertions don't hold up to the facts - you may wish to reconsider your models and assumptions. The fact that Pathfinder continues to do so well, in spite of the glaring, broken, horrible set of mechanics at its heart, which you have pointed out in countless threads, suggests that you're understanding of what makes a good and successful game may not match up with reality. It's a mystery to me that anyone has ever played a Pathfinder campaign for more than one session based on your understanding of human behavior and social interactions - I would think that the staggering number of murders over poorly implemented rules would've ruined Pathfinder's popularity, much less the countless hours of BadWrongFun that have been had.

I don't mean to suggest you are, or could possibly even be, wrong, I'm just saying, the data does not support your assertions as to human behavior. Perhaps people who aren't you (let's pretend for a moment that they exist and matter) have different preferences, and Paizo's offerings, though abhorrent and terrible in your eyes, are actually well-liked by many.

And, here's the real shocker, maybe you're in the minority, and if Paizo catered to fans like you, it wouldn't be doing so hot.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Cartigan wrote:

Does it? What benefit does buying a troll mini give me over buying a dire rat mini? Or pulling a Cleric out of a box over pulling a succubus? Any? Do I get any mechanical benefit in the Pathfinder RPG game for doing that?

If you are confused with my line of questioning then it is clear why you don't understand my point.

I understand your point. I just disagree with it. I have yet to see any evidence that the primary market for DDM was anything but role-players.

The advantage of buying a troll over a dire rat, is that maybe you want to run an encounter with trolls and prefer to use an accurate miniature. Pulling a new cleric model gives me another option for PCs and NPCs in game. I will happily buy a brick of random miniatures because I will use all of the figures in my game.

So maybe it doesn't work for you. That's fine. Wait for the encounters packs which will have predictable sets. Or buy the singles. But this initial random set of molds gives them a chance to bring a wide range of models to the table as cheaply as possible. And there is clearly a demand for it, as you can still see in the DDM after-market.


Cartigan wrote:
These statuettes are to those other miniatures what baseball cards are to M:tG. There is no collecting incentive in the current market.

I file a polite dissent with this statement.

You're right in the main - obviously, with Magic, or D&D Minis, or Clix, you want to "get 'em all" to have the most powerful ones. And that's good incentive.

But did you ever collect a sticker album as a kid? ...what was the incentive on a "complete" album, besides having a complete album?

Or baseball cards - and yes, some people still collect baseball cards.

There's still incentive to collect - having the whole collection.

Yes, <less> incentive - but not none.

(Also, as others have mentioned - with the minis game dead, the WotC minis are still demanding good aftermarket prices, so clearly there's non-game demand involved there, too.)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Sebastian wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
Their sole purpose is creature representation in a third-party game which is not a driving force to buy blind-boxed random singles.

Your assertions don't hold up to the facts - you may wish to reconsider your models and assumptions. The fact that Pathfinder continues to do so well, in spite of the glaring, broken, horrible set of mechanics at its heart, which you have pointed out in countless threads, suggests that you're understanding of what makes a good and successful game may not match up with reality. It's a mystery to me that anyone has ever played the game based on your understanding of human behavior and social interactions - I would think that the staggering number of murders over poorly implemented rules would've ruined Pathfinder's popularity, much less the countless hours of BadWrongFun that have been had.

I don't mean to suggest you are, or could possibly even be, wrong, I'm just saying, the data does not support your assertions as to human behavior.

No no, I think I know how Cartigan thinks:

"This game has failed, broken mechanics. It's basically a wreck. Yet, people buy it. Apparently, most of them are stupid, blind and don't see the glaring failure of design. But I see it! It means ... I'm ... smarter than most of the people out there! JOY! /rimshot"

Therefore, the more people buy PF, the smarter Carty gets. ;)

Grand Lodge

Lordofkhybr wrote:
I fear I will not be able to find space in my budget for Ultimate Combat because of this announcement. I will not be giving anymore money to Paizo until they realize how absolute b%&!$$#@ random miniatures are. Hear that Paizo. That`s a formerly loyal customer talking with his wallet. I had such faith in you and you dashed it upon the rocks.

The day of the Heroes and Monsters release, many retailers including Paizo will be breaking open cases upon cases to put each and every miniature up for sale individually. YOU WILL NOT NEED TO BUY ONE SINGLE RANDOM BOOSTER. In fact as the initial demand for these miniatures subsides, it is likely you will find many of these miniatures at price points well below the booster pricing. And how do I know this, because it has been the same for every random set since Wizkid's Mage Knight has been selling miniatures in this format going back almost ten years ago now. And there is absolutely no reason this Paizo release should be any different. The random format is nothing more than a means to an end. The end is that you will be able to buy specifically the miniature you want.

If a complete set is what you are looking for, then save up and buy a case. It will be highly likely you will get a full set by buying a case, with plenty of duplicates for the commons that are most desirable in multiples, and uncommons best used in lower multiples.

After following Prepainted Miniatures from Wizkid's Mage Knight through all sets of Wizard of the Coast's Dungeons & Dragons Miniatures, every set was distributed using the random format. The end result was a huge number of miniatures that became available in the marketplace, with thousands and thousands of different sculpts. No other format could have provided so many miniatures and so much variety available to all of us.

The bottom-line reality is that Wizkids and Paizo could have made a decision to NOT make any miniatures at all. Let's think about this, what would we rather have 40 new beautiful miniatures available
to us or NONE AT ALL? Decisions!

Later,

Mazra

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

My only gripe/ complaint here is the fact that they are apparently being issued in either singles or bricks. Individual packaging seems... wasteful.

I'm sure I'll buy a brick of these though, I just see all that needless trash. Bleh.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Cartigan wrote:
What benefit does buying a troll mini give me over buying a dire rat mini?

Assuming you want your player to fight a troll, I would guess that "it looks like a troll" is the benefit. Also, the troll mini is large, while the dire rat is small (I think), so it's also takes up the correct number of spaces.

I would hazard the guess that if you asked enough gamers, the consensus would be that they would prefer to use a miniature that is representative of the PC/NPC.

Also, your arguments against random packaging seem to be predicated on the buyer only wanting a few miniatures, where the randomness will have the greatest effect. For buyers that want to buy a couple hundred minis, the randomness is much less of a factor (and would be cheaper than buying the same distribution of minis on the secondary market). Paizo seems to be counting on this and is ever offering to sell minis by the case where, they have noted, you should wind up with a complete or nearly complete collection.

-Skeld


6 people marked this as a favorite.
ThatWeirdGeckoGuy wrote:
You're right. Neither you nor the rest pf Paizo fandom has to believe everything you're told either. I find it unusual that gamers, a normally inquisitive lot, are 100% accepting of everything Paizo says, because Paizo says they should. When the person making the money is telling you why they're being 100% honest and transparent, Take that with a grain of salt.

It's not about Paizo telling the fans what to think of anything. It's about a lot of fans having a lot of faith in the company based on past experiences. The adventure paths, the roleplaying game, the campaign setting, the Reaper miniatures, their excellent customer service, their communication with the fanbase in general, and so on and so forth. In the last several years the folks at Paizo have worked hard at earning the faith of its fanbase.

So when a lot of fans believe what Paizo says in their press releases or what Vic or Lisa writes on these forums and believe that this is a good idea, it's not blind faith. For a lot of fans, it's experience.

Do Paizo tell us everything? Of course not, and they shouldn't. But they've always been very open about decisions they've made, giving us fans a glimpse into the inner workings of a company that I don't think I've ever experienced before with any other gaming company.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Has anyone noticed the inherent irony of having an internet argument in a thread announcing the release of "Pathfinder Battles"?


Cartigan wrote:
Which makes random blind-boxed singles a TERRIBLE business plan unless their plan is to get people to buy even MORE marked up non-random open-box singles.

Hey! How come when I say this, my post gets deleted?

Oh, who cares. I'm going over to
Games Workshop
or Wyrd
or Privateer Press
or Soda Pop
or Avatars of War
or Crocodile Games
or Dark Ages
or Hell Dorado
or Reaper
or Freebooter
or Cool Minis or Not

where I can pay too much for a piece of plastic that I can pick out myself.

Good Marketing though. It appears EVERYONE has bought into this Wallet-...burglary.

That said, those of you who won't buy from Paizo anymore because this line makes you mad, Just buy the damn book and play your game. If the business practice makes you mad, however....

Paizo Employee Senior Software Developer

ThatWeirdGeckoGuy wrote:
Hey! How come when I say this, my post gets deleted?

Please do not be disingenuous here. I posted in this thread, and sent you an email, explaining the reason for the deletion. I also emailed you the original text of your post so you could repost it without the offending language.

Shadow Lodge

Cartigan wrote:


I would like to stress again my previous comparison. D&D Minis/Clix/whatever were, regardless of how tenuously, collectible mini games. These statuettes are to those other miniatures what baseball cards are to M:tG. There is no collecting incentive in the current market [addendum]. You cannot compare or market like M:tG or HeroClix because these have no internal incentive to get people to buy them. Their sole purpose is creature representation in a third-party game which is not a driving force to buy blind-boxed random singles.

Yeah, Cartigan, they're just ignoring us. Probably not because they don't understand the point. I'm certain they do. No, it's far more likely that they simply cannot argue it.

Had they simply given the figures a 'Clix' base, they could have sold to a wider market. Were those bases the right size, the RPG'ers wouldn't have minded.

Anyway, you make an excellent point, and are making perfect sense. I am sure you can understand how fanatical Paizo's fans tend to be, and hope you bear that in mind when they simply ignore your contributions to the conversation. They get it, but they're just not ready to discuss that angle yet.

:)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
mcbobbo wrote:
Cartigan wrote:


I would like to stress again my previous comparison. D&D Minis/Clix/whatever were, regardless of how tenuously, collectible mini games. These statuettes are to those other miniatures what baseball cards are to M:tG. There is no collecting incentive in the current market [addendum]. You cannot compare or market like M:tG or HeroClix because these have no internal incentive to get people to buy them. Their sole purpose is creature representation in a third-party game which is not a driving force to buy blind-boxed random singles.

Yeah, Cartigan, they're just ignoring us. Probably not because they don't understand the point. I'm certain they do. No, it's far more likely that they simply cannot argue it.

Had they simply given the figures a 'Clix' base, they could have sold to a wider market. Were those bases the right size, the RPG'ers wouldn't have minded.

Anyway, you make an excellent point, and are making perfect sense. I am sure you can understand how fanatical Paizo's fans tend to be, and hope you bear that in mind when they simply ignore your contributions to the conversation. They get it, but they're just not ready to discuss that angle yet.

:)

We're not fans, we're fanboys. Please don't insult us by calling us mere "fans", that's the least you can do.

:)

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

mcbobbo wrote:
Cartigan wrote:


I would like to stress again my previous comparison. D&D Minis/Clix/whatever were, regardless of how tenuously, collectible mini games. These statuettes are to those other miniatures what baseball cards are to M:tG. There is no collecting incentive in the current market [addendum]. You cannot compare or market like M:tG or HeroClix because these have no internal incentive to get people to buy them. Their sole purpose is creature representation in a third-party game which is not a driving force to buy blind-boxed random singles.

Yeah, Cartigan, they're just ignoring us. Probably not because they don't understand the point. I'm certain they do. No, it's far more likely that they simply cannot argue it.

Had they simply given the figures a 'Clix' base, they could have sold to a wider market. Were those bases the right size, the RPG'ers wouldn't have minded.

Anyway, you make an excellent point, and are making perfect sense. I am sure you can understand how fanatical Paizo's fans tend to be, and hope you bear that in mind when they simply ignore your contributions to the conversation. They get it, but they're just not ready to discuss that angle yet.

:)

I believe Vic Wertz asked much earlier in this thread, or in another recent thread, if people were interested are interested in a Pathfinder Miniatures game.

In my experience, Vic shoots from the hip. He wants to know. If I know anything at all about Paizo, it's that if people say they want to buy something, then Paizo wants to make it and sell it to them. I don't know how many product decisions have been made due to sincere people posting what they want on the forums.

It might be too late to adjust the design of the minis to accomodate a click base, but it might not be too late to make a miniatures game. Even if it contains statblocks for named miniatures.

They might not be ready to discuss that angle, but if you sincerely want to have that discussion- they will entertain that discussion. Bear in mind- they're out of town.

Are you telling Paizo that there is an undeveloped product that you would be interested in buying?

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

2 people marked this as a favorite.
mcbobbo wrote:
A bunch of the same, tired stuff about how much he knows about marketing and successful products from his many, many years of having seen people purchase successful products.

Having a logical argument, and having data to back up a logical argument, are two distinct things. The problem is your lack of facts and data in support of the argument, the wild assumptions made about the popularity of the approaches you've suggested, and the smug attitude that makes you sound less like a person with an informed and intelligent opinion and more like a whinging fanboy.

There's no one true correct answer on how to best market pre-painted minis. I'm always baffled by the lack of multi-hued thinking that clouds the thoughts of some gamers. It's either entirely wrong/black or entirely right/white.

So, yeah, you could be right. I doubt even Lisa or Vic wouldn't admit that. But they've made a decision based on the goals they have for their own company, on targets and projections based on real numbers, and on their experience in having launched not one, not two, but three successful game companies.

I'm not a huge fan of arguing from authority, and rest assured that I will give your arguments significantly more heft once you have more than the assertions of what people will buy and what makes a product successful than those you found lodged between your butt cheeks.


Gary Teter wrote:
ThatWeirdGeckoGuy wrote:
Hey! How come when I say this, my post gets deleted?
Please do not be disingenuous here. I posted in this thread, and sent you an email, explaining the reason for the deletion. I also emailed you the original text of your post so you could repost it without the offending language.

The email JUST came through, I just replied to you. In it, I said had I known you were emailing me, I would not have been pissed off.

On this issue, I apologize and retract my statement. Sorry there was a disconnect, I don't know why there was a gap on that email.


Cartigan wrote:

Yes, perspective, let's. For the assumed revenue of $100 for 1 barrel (42 gallons) of oil, companies drill into the earth's crust to pump oil from a reserve that can produce tens of thousands of barrels a day all while receiving government subsidies, tax breaks, and other support to do so.

A fraction of that millions of dollars in oil a day may be turned into some overpriced plastic miniatures which are manufactured and sold in bulk to keep costs down so that they can sell individually for more than bulk to generate more revenue.

I see what you did there. Clever. Sort of saying that materials costs are non-existent without actually using those specific words in that specific order. Neat.

I mean... excepting the fact that it's wrong.

There are a lot of hands, companies, and layers involved in the creation and distribution of a mini. That's what my post illustrated. I get that it doesn't support your personal outrage, but it's a reality nonetheless. Each layer, each person involved exacts a mark-up. It isn't important if the price - if purchased in bulk from OPEC nations - of the mass of oil required to eventually end up in a mini is some fraction of a penny. It's a non-zero number, and by the time the people putting the painted mini into the box to ship it to you are involved in the process, the price of the completed object has bloomed well and good into statistical significance.

If you think $4 for a single mini is excessive, I invite you to go into business in this clearly filthy-rich lucrative market. Go nuts.

Lantern Lodge

Dennis Baker wrote:

My only gripe/ complaint here is the fact that they are apparently being issued in either singles or bricks. Individual packaging seems... wasteful.

I'm sure I'll buy a brick of these though, I just see all that needless trash. Bleh.

Gary suggests building a fort out of all the little boxes :D

On a more serious note, I imagine the boxes add protection for shipping.

From a purely fangirl perceptive, an "environmentally friendlier" packaging method for cases would be nice, but as to the feasibility of the manufacturing process being able to handle that, I have a feeling that would make it too complicated.

Dark Archive

ThatWeirdGeckoGuy wrote:

Good Marketing though. It appears EVERYONE has bought into this Wallet-...burglary.

It's not burglary if it's given willingly.

What you are describing is a Con (dupe, deception, double-cross, cheat, swindle, bilk, etc.)


pres man wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
2) The companies could do it another way, but their chosen strategy is good for the producers and bad for the consumers. (Essentially suggesting this random-based model is a cash cow with exorbitant profits which would be undermined by the completely feasible but less profitable non-random option). This seems equally discredited to me - where have all the entrepreneurs been when they should have been taking advantage of this goldmine?

Wouldn't the analogy be more apt to be a copper mine? The less profitable option? That is kind of the point you are making right, that some people think that there may be another option but it is not as profitable and that is why the companions in their desire for profit are not doing it that way. And those people are probably just wrong.

Just to be clear, I don't disagree with your sentiment, I just thinking comparing a less profitable choice to a "gold mine" probably wasn't the best analogy.

I wasnt very clear, but the goldmine was referring to the random model:

What I meant was that the people suggesting that the random model is an easy money-spinner (if that's what they are suggesting) need to explain why there arent already stacks of people doing it.

It seems to me one reason underlying the 'It shouldnt be like this' position may be that random packs screws the consumer over for the benefit of the producer. If that's the case, it is implicitly assuming that it is a highly profitable business model - so why hasnt anyone made it work?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I have something in the neighborhood of 1000 PPM from various sources starting with the original Mage Knight set and continuing all the way through the last of the DDM line. I never played Mage Knight at all and only played DDM once. At no point did I ever buy any of my PPM because they were related to any game other than D&D and now Pathfinder. I don't want another game to play, I want a tool to make my roleplaying game more immersive. I buy prepainted plasic because I only have time to paint 1-3 metal miniatures a week and like my figures to look like what my players are encountering. I plan to buy a lot of these figures over the next few years as well, for exactly that reason.

I support this line because it fulfills a need for me. If Wotc were still producing their line, I would buy from them as well and I've been pretty annoyed at how they treated my favorite game in recent years. Are there things I would like to change about the Pathfinder miniatures? Absolutely. I don't much like the look of the troll, but that is an asthetic issue nothing more. I will still buy these because they come the closest to meeting my needs. The price does not thrill me, but I consider paying $2.50ish a figure a worthwhile average (the earlier calculated approximation of 108 figures per case comes out closer to 2.15, but I'm a bit of a pessimist about this kind of thing).


ThatWeirdGeckoGuy wrote:

Oh, who cares. I'm going over to

Games Workshop
or Wyrd
or Privateer Press
or Soda Pop
or Avatars of War
or Crocodile Games
or Dark Ages
or Hell Dorado
or Reaper
or Freebooter
or Cool Minis or Not

where I can pay too much for a piece of plastic that I can pick out myself.

Good Marketing though. It appears EVERYONE has bought into this Wallet-...burglary.

That said, those of you who won't buy from Paizo anymore because this line makes you mad, Just buy the damn book and play your game. If the business practice makes you mad, however....

I really struggle to see your point. Under the random model you will still be able to buy more expensive singles you can pick out yourself - you'll just have more to choose from.

What exactly are you upset about?

Do you think there is some way they could produce visible, non-random minis at the same price and with the same range? If so - if you think they've gone this way for the monstrous, unreasonable profits they're supposedly going to make...how come nobody else has stumbled onto this way of making millions?

Under the model being put forth, people like me get to buy hundreds of minis at below $3 per mini and get several complete sets of a wide variety of figures. The ones I dont want get passed into the aftermarket and people like you get to pick and choose which minis you want from a larger range than would otherwise be available - some of which will be more expensive but many of which will probably be cheaper. The alternative is that there are no minis produced.

Who is losing here?


Dies Irae wrote:
Has anyone noticed the inherent irony of having an internet argument in a thread announcing the release of "Pathfinder Battles"?

Randomized minis = Paizo's 4e?

I played exactly 4 games of the D&D minis game, yet I purchased over one thousand D&D minis. The ebay sale of just a few hundred after the cancellation of the game paid for a good chunk of my wedding. I doubt the existence of a game will affect the sale of these.

I didn't read the entire thread, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears there is no degree of rarity (common vs. rare). I do wonder what impact that will have on the secondary market.

Dark Archive

ThatWeirdGeckoGuy wrote:


Oh, who cares. I'm going over to
Games Workshop

Okay you have a problem with the price and you are going to GW? The same Gw who sell 5 unpainted resin bloodknight for £65 ($105.55)?


Ben Kent wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
These statuettes are to those other miniatures what baseball cards are to M:tG. There is no collecting incentive in the current market.

I file a polite dissent with this statement.

You're right in the main - obviously, with Magic, or D&D Minis, or Clix, you want to "get 'em all" to have the most powerful ones. And that's good incentive.

But did you ever collect a sticker album as a kid? ...what was the incentive on a "complete" album, besides having a complete album?

Or baseball cards - and yes, some people still collect baseball cards.

There's still incentive to collect - having the whole collection.

Yes, <less> incentive - but not none.

(Also, as others have mentioned - with the minis game dead, the WotC minis are still demanding good aftermarket prices, so clearly there's non-game demand involved there, too.)

The market for "collecting sets" and "collecting the sweetest cards/minis to make me the winner in all the contests" are not really the same. You notice how you said "some" people collect baseball cards still? The emphasis is on "some." Baseball cards are not really a very successful market any more where Magic: The Gathering still is. And these are being sold like they themselves have some ephemeral worth other than as a collector's set. They don't.


ghettowedge wrote:
I didn't read the entire thread, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears there is no degree of rarity (common vs. rare). I do wonder what impact that will have on the secondary market.

There will be a variation in frequency of figures - based loosely on complication of mold and intricacy of paintjob as I understand it (which is to say not very well, I suspect).


Skeld wrote:


Also, your arguments against random packaging seem to be predicated on the buyer only wanting a few miniatures, where the randomness will have the greatest effect. For buyers that want to buy a couple hundred minis, the randomness is much less of a factor (and would be cheaper than buying the same distribution of minis on the secondary market). Paizo seems to be counting on this and is ever offering to sell minis by the case where, they have noted, you should wind up with a complete or nearly complete collection.

I have repeatedly posited an argument for the mass buyer. They are sold as randomized SINGLES. This hurts both mass gatherers and single character representation buyers. Randomness is predicated on the stock, not the box. If you buy a box with 8 characters, you are probably guaranteed not to get a duplicate and to get a good spread. If you buy a single 8 times, you could get 8 of the same or 8 random or 4 of two unhelpful things. Both buyer markets are hampered.


Cartigan wrote:
The market for "collecting sets" and "collecting the sweetest cards/minis to make me the winner in all the contests" are not really the same. You notice how you said "some" people collect baseball cards still? The emphasis is on "some." Baseball cards are not really a very successful market any more where Magic: The Gathering still is. And these are being sold like they themselves have some ephemeral worth other than as a collector's set. They don't.

Given the option is dont do it or do it this way, what exactly are you arguing for - do you have some model you are suggesting would be both achievable and more successful? Or is it just a matter of you predicting the line will be a flop?

It seems to me you're extrapolating from your experience to the market as a whole, which is almost unavoidable for those of us outside the industry but isnt particularly reliable.


Anguish wrote:
Cartigan wrote:

Yes, perspective, let's. For the assumed revenue of $100 for 1 barrel (42 gallons) of oil, companies drill into the earth's crust to pump oil from a reserve that can produce tens of thousands of barrels a day all while receiving government subsidies, tax breaks, and other support to do so.

A fraction of that millions of dollars in oil a day may be turned into some overpriced plastic miniatures which are manufactured and sold in bulk to keep costs down so that they can sell individually for more than bulk to generate more revenue.

I see what you did there. Clever. Sort of saying that materials costs are non-existent without actually using those specific words in that specific order. Neat.

I mean... excepting the fact that it's wrong.

And so is your overcomplication of claiming people are drilling oil to make a single 1"x1"x1" figure. Oil is a very lucrative market. That's why people drill for it. Plastics are cheaper to make then metal casts or wood sculpts. That's why people make them. So save your crap.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Sara Marie wrote:
Dennis Baker wrote:

My only gripe/ complaint here is the fact that they are apparently being issued in either singles or bricks. Individual packaging seems... wasteful.

I'm sure I'll buy a brick of these though, I just see all that needless trash. Bleh.

Gary suggests building a fort out of all the little boxes :D

On a more serious note, I imagine the boxes add protection for shipping.

From a purely fangirl perceptive, an "environmentally friendlier" packaging method for cases would be nice, but as to the feasibility of the manufacturing process being able to handle that, I have a feeling that would make it too complicated.

Heh, last time I got a case of horrorclix there was a ton of little plastic bits and lots of little boxes regardless. Maybe these won't be any worse.

My only question is 'brick or case'... The only reason I bring it us is I hate to fill up the dumpster with it.


Cartigan wrote:
Skeld wrote:


Also, your arguments against random packaging seem to be predicated on the buyer only wanting a few miniatures, where the randomness will have the greatest effect. For buyers that want to buy a couple hundred minis, the randomness is much less of a factor (and would be cheaper than buying the same distribution of minis on the secondary market). Paizo seems to be counting on this and is ever offering to sell minis by the case where, they have noted, you should wind up with a complete or nearly complete collection.
I have repeatedly posited an argument for the mass buyer. They are sold as randomized SINGLES. This hurts both mass gatherers and single character representation buyers. Randomness is predicated on the stock, not the box. If you buy a box with 8 characters, you are probably guaranteed not to get a duplicate and to get a good spread. If you buy a single 8 times, you could get 8 of the same or 8 random or 4 of two unhelpful things. Both buyer markets are hampered.

This isnt quite true (since they offer bricks) but is a surprise to me as well. I would have thought there'd be call for something between the one/two mini booster and the nineteen-twenty five you will get in a brick. Nonetheless, who is more likely to come up with a successful model - you or Wizkids?


Steve Geddes wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
The market for "collecting sets" and "collecting the sweetest cards/minis to make me the winner in all the contests" are not really the same. You notice how you said "some" people collect baseball cards still? The emphasis is on "some." Baseball cards are not really a very successful market any more where Magic: The Gathering still is. And these are being sold like they themselves have some ephemeral worth other than as a collector's set. They don't.
Given the option is dont do it or do it this way, what exactly are you arguing for - do you have some model you are suggesting would be both achievable and more successful?

Yes, I did. Several pages back. It is package multiples to a single box.

Dropping the price would be nice too.

I imagine the business model will be altered within a year. There is a finite number of Paizo fanboys who are going to pay the cost for these and after that, then who are they marketing $4 singles to?

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