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Pathfinder Battles: Heroes & Monsters Brick

***½( ) (based on 47 ratings)

Case: Unavailable

Brick: Out of print

Large Booster: Unavailable

Standard Booster: Unavailable

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Pathfinder RPG combat comes to life on your tabletop with Heroes & Monsters, the debut release in the new Pathfinder Battles prepainted miniatures line! Produced in cooperation with Paizo Publishing, Heroes & Monsters presents a fascinating array of 40 beautifully painted miniatures perfect for use with the Pathfinder RPG or any fantasy miniatures game! From the brave Gnome Fighter to the mighty evil lich, Heroes & Monsters offers a wide range of player characters and dungeon denizens that make a perfect start to your Pathfinder Battles collection!

  • Heroes & Monsters Standard Boosters contain 1 Medium or 2 Small miniatures.
  • Heroes & Monsters Large Boosters contain 1 Large miniature.
  • Heroes & Monsters Bricks contain 16 Standard Boosters and 3 Large Boosters.
  • Heroes & Monsters Cases contain 4 Bricks (64 Standard Boosters and 12 Large Boosters).

Purchasers should get no to very few duplicate figures in a brick. Buyers who purchase factory-sealed cases should get a nearly complete set of figures. (As with any randomized product, collation is not guaranteed.)

Begin your Pathfinder Battles collection today! The Heroes & Monsters of the Pathfinder world await!

See the press release for questions and answers about this exciting new product line.


Heroes & Monsters Set List

CommonUncommon
1  Goblin Warrior (Red)
2  Goblin Hero (Red)
3  Goblin Warrior (Blue)
4  Goblin Hero (Blue)
5  Orc Brute
6  Orc Warrior
7  Skeleton
8  Watch Guard
9  Watch Officer
10  Lizardfolk Champion
11  Zombie
12  Giant Spider
13  Wolf
14  Venomous Snake
15  Mummy
16  Human Rogue
17  Human Ranger
18  Elf Wizard
19  Half-Elf Cleric
20  Dwarf Fighter
21  Human Druid
22  Gnome Fighter
23  Dire Rat
Rare
24  Gargoyle
25  Half-Orc Barbarian
26  Spectre
27  Seelah, Human Paladin
28  Werewolf
29  Medusa
30  Minotaur
31  Ogre
32  Troll
33  Ettin
34  Chimera
35  Manticore
36  Giant Caveweaver Spider
37  Frost Giant
38  Succubus
39  Lich
40  Vampire

Additional Product Images


(click to enlarge)
WizKidsHeroesAndMonsters-PFB1 WizKidsHeroesAndMonsters-PFB3 PFB4 WizKidsHeroesAndMonsters-PFB5
Medusa Lich seelah orc
092311_EttinPreview 092311_RangerPreview 093011_GoblinPreview

Product Availability


(go to main product page)

Case, Large Booster, Standard Booster: Unavailable

Brick: This product is out of print.

Are there errors or omissions in this product information? Got corrections? Let us know at webmaster@paizo.com.

WZK70484


See Also:



Product Discussion (2,346)
451 to 500 of 2,346 << first < prev | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | next > last >>

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Russ Taylor wrote:
Justin Franklin wrote:
oh yea those. You mean the "Hey, look we bundle 4-6 commons together, so you can buy them again?" ;)

I don't think that's very fair. Not all of them were repaints, and I don't think any of them were commons. The repaints were a mix of uncommons and rares. 3 to a pack, not 4-6.

From the first set of 18: 4 repaints, all look like uncommons to me
From the second set of 18: 4 repaints, 2 rare, 2 uncommon

However, they were a dismal failure regardless. Mostly because of your 3 in a pack, you typical got 1 figure worth having (sometimes 2), for a not that attractive price.

Fine, Russ shootdown my over exaggeration. ;)


Vic Wertz wrote:
We do not currently have any concrete plans regarding a separate miniatures game. Is that something you'd like to see?

Nope. No desire here for a separate set of miniatures rules. :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
TwoWolves wrote:


/threadjack:
Personally, I loved Heroscape, and was madder than a wet hen when they moved it to WotC so they could kill it.

Yeah! This is off topic. Heroscape was great as were the miniatures. The irony is that some of those $10.00 Heroscape boosters from Walmart are selling for over $50.00 on Ebay now. Well made PPMs tend to hold their value or even do better depending on rarity. If Paizo/Wizkid miniatures are of a very high quality, then they will hold their value or even do better too. Even at $4.00 to $6.00 a fig it may be a good buy. But at the case price of under $3.00 a figurine, not only are you buying a great gaming aid, but something that may be worth something down the road a piece, and at a very good price today.

Maybe it wasn't that far off topic. ;)

Later,

Mazra


Um....you have got to be kidding me. I looked forward to this product with an open mind and open wallet. All I kept saying to myself was "please, please learn from WOTC...anything but random." Then we get this...just....plain....wow....
This reasoning is complete nonsense. Here's an idea: do enough market research and target groups at...oh I don't know a major convention (or two) and produce what people actually want. That way you don't have to worry about some figures not selling well enough. Which here's the translation on that: "You may pay your hard-earned money and get something you absolutely, positively have no use for...but hey we have to make the lich an extra sparkly color purple, so here's your fourth goblin stalker or whatever."
Here's an amazing idea...make a quality product and charge what you need to make a profit for it...done. If you feel the need to bundle stuff maybe make it useful bundling-Buy an undead army set (5 skeletons, 2 ghosts and their vampire leader)- Buy a forest lover's special (3 elves, 2 dryads, and a big scary treant).
I am all for the visible product and like many people if you put all 40 in one box and slap $199.99 on it I'll buy it. But I'm not spending $4 a pop for random stuff anymore- enough is seriously enough. I was a MTG player for a decade and there was nothing like the sinking feeling of popping a booster to get "thoughtlace" as your rare. WOTC recreated that feeling when you pulled a chain golem (or whatever mini you personally have no use for) as your huge figure in the mini's line.
Now we get to enjoy this all over again....no thanks.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Caineach wrote:
They also have the problem of not fitting a 1in battlemat.

Throughout the entire run of Heroscape, this was my #1 complaint.

TwoWolves wrote:
Ah, I gotcha. I thought you were one of those people complaining about the price point of the new line.

No, I'm fine with the price (I've already pre-ordered my case). Obviously, I wish it was lower, but I understand why it is where it is.

Spoilered Threadjack:

Spoiler:
I really enjoyed HS too. The bases were an issue for me from the beginning because i bought them initially to augment my D&D game. I think the problem started when the line moved to WotC. They already had a competing product and never took real advantage of the licenses they held to augment HS (Star Wars, vs. GI Joe vs. Transformers vs. HS). HS was already in trouble when it was transferred to WotC (It just wasn't a mass-market appealing product), but it really tanked after it was forced on them.

-Skeld


Kolokotroni wrote:
If this behavior does not crack the business model then why isn't it part of the plan in the first place. If its ok for part of them to be sold in random sets and part of them to be sold individually for a higher price, why cant they just be sold in both forms normally? Aren't we just wasting packaging at some point?
Goblins Eighty-Five wrote:
Whoa! And here I was excited about this, but at these prices, I'd rather purchase pewter minis and get to select which kind I get.
Cartigan wrote:
That depends whether you define people as Paizo faithful or the average gamer who also uses miniatures. I can EASILY afford all this. I will not, however, buy it because of the price point though. There is a notable difference between being affordable and either being or giving the impression of being worth your cost. $6 for a random, plastic, non-posable figure that fits roughly in a 2" cube? You're kidding, right? Never mind the $4 random, plastic, non-posable figure that fits roughly in a 1" cube.
Cartigan wrote:
Caineach wrote:


Find comprable producs.

Done. Go to one of the online retailers that have tons of old D&D minis and have aggregated them into packs of certain things and buy a pack of 10 for ~$17. You now spend no time painting, have 10 miniatures that you wanted, and paid a per mini price of ~$2. The average gamer just using minis isn't going to care about superior quality. The hobbyist paints. The miniature gamer is serious about minis. The D&D player who just wants a guy who looks remotely like his character or a DM who just wants a recognizable hoard will get what he wants for $2 each.

Quote:
Randomness allows for offsetting complicated loss leaders with mooks. (You can offset a mini that costs more than a pack to make by assuming people will buy multiple packs to get it. This would not be possible with non-random, as you would see some minis that are priced outside of where people are willing to pay, further reducing demand and increasing cost per unit more, causing a cycle.)
Yes, you can. But since these are ONE a pack, the buyer now has to overcome the disinterest in getting 3 useless duplicates out of buying 8 boxes and maybe getting a single of what he really wants.
DJ Rogue wrote:

Um....you have got to be kidding me. I looked forward to this product with an open mind and open wallet. All I kept saying to myself was "please, please learn from WOTC...anything but random." Then we get this...just....plain....wow....

This reasoning is complete nonsense. Here's an idea: do enough market research and target groups at...oh I don't know a major convention (or two) and produce what people actually want. That way you don't have to worry about some figures not selling well enough. Which here's the translation on that: "You may pay your hard-earned money and get something you absolutely, positively have no use for...but hey we have to make the lich an extra sparkly color purple, so here's your fourth goblin stalker or whatever."
Here's an amazing idea...make a quality product and charge what you need to make a profit for it...done. If you feel the need to bundle stuff maybe make it useful bundling-Buy an undead army set (5 skeletons, 2 ghosts and their vampire leader)- Buy a forest lover's special (3 elves, 2 dryads, and a big scary treant).
I am all for the visible product and like many people if you put all 40 in one box and slap $199.99 on it I'll buy it. But I'm not spending $4 a pop for random stuff anymore- enough is seriously enough. I was a MTG player for a decade and there was nothing like the sinking feeling of popping a booster to get "thoughtlace" as your rare. WOTC recreated that feeling when you pulled a chain golem (or whatever mini you personally have no use for) as your huge figure in the mini's line.
Now we get to enjoy this all over again....no thanks.


See these above posts? Geniuses, that's who they're from.


Lisa Stevens wrote:

And you would be wrong. I WISH that I could order the figs as I see fit. That would be awesome. But that isn't in the cards.

-Lisa

Oh, and before you start ranting about bad business and all, WizKids can't sell them to me as I see fit because of all the reasons why they have to make these miniatures random in the first place. It has to do with number of paint steps and the quantity produced. If they let me buy a ton of rares directly from them, the costs would be too high and they wouldn't make any money. They need me to buy the commons, uncommons, and rares in the ratios that everybody else does in order for the system to work. I could demand that they sell me what I want, but then they would have just walked away from the deal. So we will be getting what everyone else is getting.

Um, no. Only WizKids and you know the price points on specific figures, and only WizKids and you know the exact number of figures pressed per run, per mold sheet. It would be quite easy for you to factor these things into your contract, without hurting WizKids. Do I believe that there is any way you could buy unlimited {Huge Demon #7} at whatever your discount is on a random box? (Which is what I think you think I'm saying) Absolutely not. Do I believe {Huge Demon #7} costs $X to produce, and {Giant Bug #3} costs $X/3 to produce, and you will pay a mark up on X, and get the figures you want to sell on this very web page? I do, and if you don't have that in your contract, well, you should have.

More than one figure is pressed per plate, per push, and all these things are easy to factor in.

For those of you not working for Paizo reading this: When the uber rare X=$45 {Huge Demon #7} is out of stock AGAIN and you think I'm wrong, CREATING a market is what a marketing department does, and Paizo has one of those. Their jobs are to make you WANT, and RARITY is how you make a nerd covet....


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
ThatWeirdGeckoGuy wrote:
Lisa Stevens wrote:

And you would be wrong. I WISH that I could order the figs as I see fit. That would be awesome. But that isn't in the cards.

-Lisa

Oh, and before you start ranting about bad business and all, WizKids can't sell them to me as I see fit because of all the reasons why they have to make these miniatures random in the first place. It has to do with number of paint steps and the quantity produced. If they let me buy a ton of rares directly from them, the costs would be too high and they wouldn't make any money. They need me to buy the commons, uncommons, and rares in the ratios that everybody else does in order for the system to work. I could demand that they sell me what I want, but then they would have just walked away from the deal. So we will be getting what everyone else is getting.

Um, no. Only WizKids and you know the price points on specific figures, and only WizKids and you know the exact number of figures pressed per run, per mold sheet. It would be quite easy for you to factor these things into your contract, without hurting WizKids. Do I believe that there is any way you could buy unlimited {Huge Demon #7} at whatever your discount is on a random box? (Which is what I think you think I'm saying) Absolutely not. Do I believe {Huge Demon #7} costs $X to produce, and {Giant Bug #3} costs $X/3 to produce, and you will pay a mark up on X, and get the figures you want to sell on this very web page? I do, and if you don't have that in your contract, well, you should have.

More than one figure is pressed per plate, per push, and all these things are easy to factor in.

For those of you not working for Paizo reading this: When the uber rare X=$45 {Huge Demon #7} is out of stock AGAIN and you think I'm wrong, CREATING a market is what a marketing department does, and Paizo has one of those. Their jobs are to make you WANT, and RARITY is how you make a nerd covet....

So you are calling Lisa a liar again, nice.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Oh good now were into crazy conspiracy theory territory

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You know this all seems Awfully familiar to me. I mean when Paizo moved to the adventure path model people said it would crash and burn and no one would buy it, when they announced the PFRPG people said it would crash and burn and they would go crawling back to WOTC.

I would point out they were proven wrong then and I expect them to be proven wrong now.

Cheliax Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

3 people marked this as a favorite.
ThatWeirdGeckoGuy wrote:


For those of you not working for Paizo reading this: When the uber rare X=$45 {Huge Demon #7} is out of stock again and you think I'm wrong, CREATING a market is what a marketing department does, and Paizo has one of those. Their jobs are to make you WANT, and RARITY is how you make a nerd covet....

Some people refer to this arcane system in which prices and demand drive production as "capitalism". You see, under a capitalist economy, if a good costs more to produce than to sell, it will not be made. So, in order to have a good on the market, you need to price it above what it costs to produce.

Now, I understand that this may be difficult to comprehend given your substantial experience negotiating manufacturing and licensing agreements, but sometimes, just sometimes, people in a particular business (say, a company that has long manufactured and sold plastic pre-painted miniatures) understand the economics of their business and can make well-informed decisions about what price/production level is appropriate to create a product that sells enough units to even be worth making. It's not that the choice is random v. non-random (despite your uninformed and constant assertions to the contrary), it's that the choice is random v. none. Or so the experts (other than you, obviously) tell me.

Also, sometimes, a product will be produced at a price above what a particular consumer would be willing to pay for it. In fact, some economists belive that not all people need to be willing to buy a product for it to be successful!


3 people marked this as a favorite.
DJ Rogue wrote:

Um....you have got to be kidding me. I looked forward to this product with an open mind and open wallet. All I kept saying to myself was "please, please learn from WOTC...anything but random." Then we get this...just....plain....wow....

This reasoning is complete nonsense.

No, it's not. You pretending to have even the barest understanding of the realities of this business is nonsense. Read the thread. If you want to argue against the model, you have to actually understand the model first, and you plainly do not.

Quote:
Here's an idea: do enough market research and target groups at...oh I don't know a major convention (or two) and produce what people actually want. That way you don't have to worry about some figures not selling well enough.

THAT'S NOT WHAT THIS IS ABOUT.

Dear lord, people.

It's not about producing minis that people don't want. It's about being able to produce minis that everyone wants ten of while at the same time being able to produce minis that everyone wants one of.

Quote:
Which here's the translation on that: "You may pay your hard-earned money and get something you absolutely, positively have no use for...but hey we have to make the lich an extra sparkly color purple, so here's your fourth goblin stalker or whatever."

If you absolutely positively want a specific mini and can't stand the random packaging, buy it on the aftermarket from either Paizo or your local retailer.

Quote:
Here's an amazing idea...make a quality product and charge what you need to make a profit for it...done.

Congratulations, you've solved every business problem, ever. Why do people even bother getting MBAs, again?

Quote:
I am all for the visible product and like many people if you put all 40 in one box and slap $199.99 on it I'll buy it.

And then you'll have one lich and one goblin, and you'll kick yourself for suggesting such a myopic product model the first time you try to run an encounter featuring more than one goblin.

Way to go.

Quote:

But I'm not spending $4 a pop for random stuff anymore- enough is seriously enough. I was a MTG player for a decade and there was nothing like the sinking feeling of popping a booster to get "thoughtlace" as your rare. WOTC recreated that feeling when you pulled a chain golem (or whatever mini you personally have no use for) as your huge figure in the mini's line.

Now we get to enjoy this all over again....no thanks.

Welcome to the real world - the random model is required in order to get the minis line you're used to. Deal with it.

By the way, your reaction is not that of someone with an open mind or an open wallet. Just because you tell everyone that you have an open mind doesn't make it so.

Paizo Employee PostMonster General

1 person marked this as a favorite.

You know, I think calling people "random morons" and calling out punctuation and sentence structure in a thread that isn't about Paizo's rampant editing mistakes is probably out of line, so I removed some snark.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I am confused why my questioning of Lisa, or my questioning of their transparency in their marketing plan, makes me bad, or a conspiracy theorist. I work at a huge, national company, and I see how our marketing goes. That's what marketing IS.


Sebastian wrote:
DJ Rogue wrote:

Um....you have got to be kidding me. I looked forward to this product with an open mind and open wallet. All I kept saying to myself was "please, please learn from WOTC...anything but random." Then we get this...just....plain....wow....

This reasoning is complete nonsense. Here's an idea: do enough market research and target groups at...oh I don't know a major convention (or two) and produce what people actually want. That way you don't have to worry about some figures not selling well enough. Which here's the translation on that: "You may pay your hard-earned money and get something you absolutely, positively have no use for...but hey we have to make the lich an extra sparkly color purple, so here's your fourth goblin stalker or whatever."
Here's an amazing idea...make a quality product and charge what you need to make a profit for it...done. If you feel the need to bundle stuff maybe make it useful bundling-Buy an undead army set (5 skeletons, 2 ghosts and their vampire leader)- Buy a forest lover's special (3 elves, 2 dryads, and a big scary treant).
I am all for the visible product and like many people if you put all 40 in one box and slap $199.99 on it I'll buy it. But I'm not spending $4 a pop for random stuff anymore- enough is seriously enough. I was a MTG player for a decade and there was nothing like the sinking feeling of popping a booster to get "thoughtlace" as your rare. WOTC recreated that feeling when you pulled a chain golem (or whatever mini you personally have no use for) as your huge figure in the mini's line.
Now we get to enjoy this all over again....no thanks.

If only there were a FAQ that explained the reasoning behind the product selection...

I guess that's just a pipe dream, much like correct punctuation and sentence structure.

Anyway, I'd love to hear more about your experience manufacturing, marketing, and selling pre-painted figures. Clearly, by your post, you're an expert on the topic, with...

I'm sure I could find a length amount of evidence on the economics of perceived worth or the gambling high as it applies to buying random products, but I haven't the time or dedication.

The bottom line is, even if Paizo/Wiz wants to try and capitalize on the gambling high of buying random miniatures, they aren't going to get it by selling single packs. The price point is too high. Sell them 5 to a pack for $20. The perceived worth goes up due to larger numbers provided in any given box and duplicate percentages will go down so people are more likely to get a case of 5 than just buy 5 blind single.

I have NO idea what they are going to do with larges going for $6 a pop. That is way too high a price point for a random single and it doesn't make sense to package a set of larges because who needs X>1 random large creatures? They would be better off mimicking WotC - 1 large, and a random selection of mediums smalls that equals 5 mediums in any given box and sell the whole thing for $25.

Cheliax Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Gary Teter wrote:
You know, I think calling people "random morons" and calling out punctuation and sentence structure in a thread that isn't about Paizo's rampant editing mistakes is probably out of line, so I removed some snark.

I think people acting like random morons is out of line, but I see your point. I'm consistently a moron, and that is all I ask of everyone else.


Kevin Mack wrote:

You know this all seems Awfully familiar to me. I mean when Paizo moved to the adventure path model people said it would crash and burn and no one would buy it, when they announced the PFRPG people said it would crash and burn and they would go crawling back to WOTC.

I would point out they were proven wrong then and I expect them to be proven wrong now.

What's different from the Adventure Path system than what they had already been doing in the magazines? If WotC hadn't burned the 3.5 bridge behind it, Pathfinder would be relegated to the same also-running status as a dozen other companies using the OGL or modified OGL.

This, however, is an entirely different thing.


Gary Teter wrote:
You know, I think calling people "random morons" and calling out punctuation and sentence structure in a thread that isn't about Paizo's rampant editing mistakes is probably out of line, so I removed some snark.

Huh, you must have removed more than my post.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Scott Betts wrote:


It's not about producing minis that people don't want. It's about being able to produce minis that everyone wants ten of while at the same time being able to produce minis that everyone wants one of.

No one playing D&D wants 10 orcs for $40.

Paizo Employee PostMonster General

ThatWeirdGeckoGuy wrote:
Huh, you must have removed more than my post.

I removed the post you responded to, and then had to remove your post because you responded to it. Nothing personal.

Cheliax Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Cartigan wrote:

I'm sure I could find a length amount of evidence on the economics of perceived worth or the gambling high as it applies to buying random products, but I haven't the time or dedication.

The bottom line is, even if Paizo/Wiz wants to try and capitalize on the gambling high of buying random miniatures, they aren't going to get it by selling single packs. The price point is too high. Sell them 5 to a pack for $20. The perceived worth goes up due to larger numbers provided in any given box and duplicate percentages will go down so people are more likely to get a case of 5 than just buy 5 blind single.

I have NO idea what they are going to do with larges going for $6 a pop. That is way too high a price point for a random single and it doesn't make sense to package a set of larges because who needs X>1 random large creatures? They would be better off mimicking WotC - 1 large, and a random selection of mediums smalls that equals 5 mediums in any given box and sell the whole thing for $25.

Cartigan, old pal, that may well be. I understand that for some, possibly many, people the whole random assortment thing is a deal breaker. As is the price. It looks to me like Paizo is trying a different model from WotC, which combined a higher price point with a greater number of miniatures. Will it work? Damned if I know, but I don't think you're arguing inherently against randomness. You seem to be arguing about the best use of randomness. I would also prefer a larger number of minis at a higher price point, but I don't have enough evidence to comment on the wisdom of the decision one way or the other.

Starbucks convinced people to pay $5 for a cup of coffee. You may not be one of their customers, but various businesses have found success in pricing products at a higher level from time to time. Perhaps the $6 large mini is of that ilk.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber

This is why I gave up complaining and, on reading the posted material, that I had any hope in starting to argue against Paizo's/WK's take on the market. If it's going to be random and pricier than I can afford right now, I think I just have a greater shot at convincing Vic to consider adoption until a tenure track position comes through. If the later happens soon enough, then it will work out w/o adoption. If both happen, well then, I won't be a burden on my adopted parents, but maybe they will still let me throw parties and have friends over on special occasions.


Sebastian, you make a lot of good points (I won't quote them all here) and you're right on a lot of them. My name here is ThatWeirdGeckoGuy because I breed and sell weird and obscure geckos. Just like Miniatures, they are purely a want, and not a need, and they appeal to collectors. What sets the market price on my geckos? What the market will sustain. There are geckos I can sell for $1,000 each as hatchlings that are far, far more common than some I can sell for $350. Why the disparity? Demand and PERCEIVED rarity. I am not arguing that Paizo will sell the bejeebus out of these figures, and I am not arguing that they will be a successful product for them. What I'm arguing is the statement (and I paraphrase)

"We have to charge so much, and make them random, so you buy more than you need to give us enough money that we can make these at all. Our margin is so low, look at how we made this work!"

My brother presses models all day. That's his job. He monitors the machines that push the plastic. Have I sold pre-painted minis? No, but when you've heard about the process of making minis for 15 years, you do pick up a few things. What kid of minis does he work on, you say? Funny you should ask, he presses plastic minis for our hobby. We're not talking huge distribution figures, in toy stores or walmarts. If that were the case, I'd point out the Japanese gundams that are like $1.50 and kick the snot out of anything WizKids has ever and will ever do. Their market allows for the front loading of a huge cost on the plate for the figure, because they'll sell 100X and more what a WizKids figure will sell, and they'll do it off of one push of the mold, there by removing the cost of warehouse space, something the smaller companies (Like Paizo and Wizkids, at least compared to the gundam makers) have to factor in.

My only issue with these is that the randomness is put in solely to gouge more cash. They don't actually need to do that for this line to be successful.

Can I name a line of non-random pre-painted that made it? Nope. BUT, the only lines of pre-painteds I can name were either too cheap to make it as non randoms, or WAY overpriced (Rhacham).

These figs could easily be sold non random and do just as well, in my opinion. I've yet to see and argument that proves me or anyone else who says this wrong, because "Paizo said so and they love us!" doesn't count.

Shadow Lodge

Hey, DJ Rogue you did read that there doing encounter sets that will be nonrandom? Also there is a difference in the way that PIZO and WOTC is doing these form the get go,(and yes I never thought I would be defending random mins).

WOTC based there mins on a non-rpg supplement. (Chain mail if I remember correctly) So there here no official D&D RPG plastic mins there were mins for the D&D battle game that were compatible for the RPG.

PIZO is just making miniatures for the RPG. So there is no silly secondary supplement (I am looking at you Miniatures Handbook).

Wizards geared there mins to collectors. So there was allot of crap in them. They kept away from the common critters like orcs and skeletons. But dam they liked them self's miniatures of stuff that were in one source book ever or appeared in just one module.

PIZO has said that they will catering to the GMs. So Skeletons and Goblins will be common and odd monsters will be rare.

Alos Pizo is doing non-random encounter pack. You may get your wish for a skeleton, ghost, and vampire box.

And PIZO will be selling singles at there shop. Ok this hasn't been announced but I am so confadent that this will happen that if it doesn't I will create a Gnome Soccer named Dorko Dingle-Berry and play him in Society for 12 levels. I may anyway just because that is the best name ever. ;)


Sebastian wrote:
Starbucks convinced people to pay $5 for a cup of coffee. You may not be one of their customers, but various businesses have found success in pricing products at a higher level from time to time. Perhaps the $6 large mini is of that ilk.

Those companies are selling a brand. Which they spent alot of time and money building.


Gary Teter wrote:
ThatWeirdGeckoGuy wrote:
Huh, you must have removed more than my post.
I removed the post you responded to, and then had to remove your post because you responded to it. Nothing personal.

No offense taken. I didn't see "random morons" anywhere. This is heated, but I didn't call anyone a moron, so I was confused.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Cartigan wrote:
Scott Betts wrote:


It's not about producing minis that people don't want. It's about being able to produce minis that everyone wants ten of while at the same time being able to produce minis that everyone wants one of.
No one playing D&D wants 10 orcs for $40.

And it is very likely when Paizo and other vendors begin selling miniatures individually that the prices will be below $4.00 for a common Orc. But it will be equally likely that the rare Succubus will sell for $40 alone, about the same price that the DDM Bloodwar Succubus is currently selling for on Ebay.

For all those that hate the random format, there will always be Ebay, Paizo, Auggies and many others out there selling the miniatures individually. The commons will likely be had for cheap. But you may have to pay through the nose for a rare.

Bottom line it will mean more miniatures will be available for everyone. Capitalism will take hold and the price for the miniatures will be subject to the laws of supply and demand.

I applaud Paizo for taking this risk. And yes, I mean risk. The financial outlay for such a venture is vast and the hope for reward is limited. It is clear that their love of the hobby is high on their priority list. We should be grateful.

Later,

Mazra


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cartigan wrote:
I have NO idea what they are going to do with larges going for $6 a pop. That is way too high a price point for a random single and it doesn't make sense to package a set of larges because who needs X>1 random large creatures? They would be better off mimicking WotC - 1 large, and a random selection of mediums smalls that equals 5 mediums in any given box and sell the whole thing for $25.

Personally, I'm glad to get the option to buy random larges by themselves. I know that I could use another dozen or so giants at the very least. I'm sure there will be others I will want more of as well. There were times where I stopped buying the D&D minis before I wanted to, because all I wanted was a couple of larges and it was not worth it to me to spend 20+ for a box to get a chance at a single figure I wanted and a bunch of smaller ones I did not. I could care less if I ever get another orc, drow, or goblin. I have plenty of each. None the less, I am glad that this set is being released because there is a huge variety of figures I use regularly and do not have enough of.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

There is an astounding amount of rudeness going on in this thread. I understand people who are huge fans of Paizo feel the need to defend the company but to do it by insulting the intelligence of the people you are responding to is not cool. Sure, some people plainly may not understand the business model, but I feel that people who are acting high and mighty with their "I know the business model and you clearly don't so stop posting here you insufferable fool" posts (of which this one is completely made up) need to take a moment and breathe. Those being rude towards Paizo obviously need to do the same.

Simply as a point of discussion, I want to phrase something in a way that I don't think has been done in this thread. Instead of arguing about what works as a business model or the way things should be, I'm going to look at it in a much simpler way.

For what I and many DMs want in miniatures, buying random box packs is not user friendly. This can't be disputed. There is no counterargument. I'm a DM and would like to get miniatures that will help my home game. I think, "Hey Paizo has some miniatures. Maybe they have ones that will help me." But when I hand over my money to a retailer to buy the minis I don't know what I will get. There is a strong chance that each $4 I hand over for a box will get me something I don't want. I will repeat myself just to drive the point home.

This is not customer friendly. It is not an ideal experience to have.

If Netflix didn't send me discs on my queue but chose a random selection of somewhat related movies, some of which I may not want, to send to me, people would not be happy. If I clicked to watch a youtube video and instead got rickrolled, I would not be happy (and I propose getting the paizo mini you didn't want should be called "gnome-rolled"). If I hoped to get steak from a restaurant and they brought me a head of lettuce, I would send it back.

The fact is people are putting down a lot of money for hopes and dreams, not for sure bets. It doesn't matter what business model is required to allow miniature production to occur. The bottom line is that many people will be disappointed with not knowing what they are buying. I hope those who are being unnecessary hostile towards us skeptical Paizo fans (and the downright haters) can remember that.

That said, were I in the position of Paizo and WizKids I would make the same decisions to put these products out this way if that was the only way to do it. Better to have options than not. For better or worse, a big part of Paizo's reputation is being put on the line with these products and I think so far the messaging from Paizo has shown that a lot of care has been put into it. I wish them the best of luck in this and all things and I wish my wallet a lot of luck in expanding to the size where I can afford to plunk down $275 on hopes and dreams.

Cheliax Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

ThatWeirdGeckoGuy wrote:
Gary Teter wrote:
ThatWeirdGeckoGuy wrote:
Huh, you must have removed more than my post.
I removed the post you responded to, and then had to remove your post because you responded to it. Nothing personal.
No offense taken. I didn't see "random morons" anywhere. This is heated, but I didn't call anyone a moron, so I was confused.

That was my work.

Aside: Breeding geckos is possibly the most awesome career I've ever heard of. I dig it.

I find the rationale for the random scheme laid out in the FAQ to be logical and persuasive. I think the other half of the equation is the price point - it looks like Paizo is designing a product that they want to sell at $6 or under per unit. Given that constraint, packaging individual non-random minis seems like a very difficult prospect for the reasons highlighted in the FAQ (some models are inherently limited in appeal, some are going to be unloved/unwanted). It's entirely possible that some other business model could work (e.g., non-random assortment of minis at a higher price point), so, to be fair, it's entirely possible that "random minis are the only way" is too broad of a statement. Maybe it's more accurate to say "random minis are the only way to sell models under $10" or "random minis are the safest way to launch a minis product because it is a tried and tested business model" or, maybe even "non-random minis were tried to a limited extent in 4e, and that didn't work because of the non-randomness (and not because of 4e's perceived success levels)".

I assume there's a lot that goes into these decisions, and many facts are not known or understood by the consumer. But, the bottom line is, if you don't like it, don't buy it. Or, better yet, buy on the secondary market where you're more likely to pay a lower price and know what you're getting. In either case, you help prove the point that the product, as assembled and priced, is not viable. Absent that evidence, we are piling speculation upon speculation.


Mazra wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
Scott Betts wrote:


It's not about producing minis that people don't want. It's about being able to produce minis that everyone wants ten of while at the same time being able to produce minis that everyone wants one of.
No one playing D&D wants 10 orcs for $40.
And it is very likely when Paizo and other vendors begin selling miniatures individually that the prices will be below $4.00 for a common Orc. But it will be equally likely that the rare Succubus will sell for $40 alone, about the same price that the DDM Bloodwar Succubus is currently selling for on Ebay.

Wow, I thought that piece was lame. One of the guys I game with has it. I should tell him a good way to make a quick buck.

Quote:
For all those that hate the random format, there will always be Ebay, Paizo, Auggies and many others out there selling the miniatures individually. The commons will likely be had for cheap. But you may have to pay through the nose for a rare.

The problem is the single per pack doesn't actually encourage people to by the packs. If it was multiples to a pack, you have the incentive of 5 chances to get a rare. As it is now, you have one chance. And a poor chance at that. Also your chance of getting duplicates of junk commons is multiplied.

Quote:
I applaud Paizo for taking this risk. And yes, I mean risk.

Me too. I mean the risk part, not the applauding. I applaud them for getting into pre-painted miniatures and it ends there.


Sebastian wrote:


I find the rationale for the random scheme laid out in the FAQ to be logical and persuasive.

It's a press release. It is supposed to be persuasive while sounding logical. That doesn't guarantee it is either.

How easy do you think it will be for retailers to stock single creature boosters? Burned 1 too many times and no one is going to buy any of them as opposed to multiple creature boosters where you have a better gamble of not being burned when purchasing another pack.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
drumlord wrote:

This is not customer friendly. It is not an ideal experience to have.

If Netflix didn't send me discs on my queue but chose a random selection of somewhat related movies, some of which I may not want, to send to me, people would not be happy. If I clicked to watch a youtube video and instead got rickrolled, I would not be happy (and I propose getting the paizo mini you didn't want should be called "gnome-rolled"). If I hoped to get steak from a restaurant and they brought me a head of lettuce, I would send it back.

Drumlord, You are wise beyond your years. I don't know how old you are, but however old it is, you're a smart one. Thanks for taking the nerd rage out of this side of the argument and putting it in a well spoken and polite manner.


Cartigan wrote:

It's a press release. It is supposed to be persuasive while sounding logical. That doesn't guarantee it is either.

How easy do you think it will be for retailers to stock single creature boosters? Burned 1 too many times and no one is going to buy any of them as opposed to multiple creature boosters where you have a better gamble of not being burned when purchasing another pack.

Strangely, I was going to say almost exactly that.

Cheliax Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

6 people marked this as a favorite.

Okay, it's a pack of lies entirely fabricated to make me feel better about the product because I'm not smart enough to parse a simple explanation and compare it to my own experience, education, and reasoning.

Whatever floats your boat. I'm fairly indifferent to contrary opinions and ultimately secure in my own correctness.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
drumlord wrote:

The fact is people are putting down a lot of money for hopes and dreams, not for sure bets. It doesn't matter what...

Forgive me drumlord. You wrote a well thought out post. But you, like many others keep missing the point that every one of these miniatures will be available individually. If you don't want to open boosters with "hopes and dreams", you will not have to. Personally, I like opening boosters. I like wondering what yummy morsel is contained within. I like the idea that a case will likely get me near a complete set with plenty of extra commons and uncommons for my gaming needs, and likely then some. But I also understand a lot of people just don't like this format. For those people......THERE IS ANOTHER FORMAT.

We just all should be ecstatic that more miniatures are being made. And the color and look are unlike any we have seen before.

Later,

Mazra


Kevin Mack wrote:
Oh good now were into crazy conspiracy theory territory

You called?


Sebastian wrote:
Or, better yet, buy on the secondary market where you're more likely to pay a lower price and know what you're getting. In either case, you help prove the point that the product, as assembled and priced, is not viable. Absent that evidence, we are piling speculation upon...

See, this is where I think you're wrong. I think the whole thing is lip service, so they can charge enough for packs that they will create a secondary market that they have every edge in the world in. Even if I am 100% wrong on distrusting Lisa, they are still selling these for a bit of cash, and have the randomness so stacked against the buyer, the secondary market will be the sane way to go. Where do you go for all of your secondary market needs on Paizo figures? PAIZO! The same company who negotiated the contract, and has the best price rate to but the figures out of anyone, cuz it's their license.

For those of you not clear on this, even if Paizo pays the same as your local store, PAIZO MAKES ROYALTIES OF THE FIGURES THEY BUY.

If I buy the figures on the secondary market, their system works. I'm fine with them making a boatload on me, because, frankly, I have the cash, and if I didn't, I don't NEED the figs. It's not like they're inflating the price of food.

Just don't p!$$ on my head and tell me it's rain, is all I'm saying.

Paizo Employee PostMonster General

I think everybody might want to take a few minutes to enjoy the outdoors. I'll unlock the thread in a little bit.


First i would like to say, i look forward to paizo minis, and the ones previewed thus far look pretty sweet. The problem that i really see with these is not necessarily the randomization (not wild about it though) but the very small pack size. I've read and understand wizkids position on randomization, and think that if you really wanted to sell an abundance of "common" mini's along with the "Rare" mini's a more expensive but larger pack size is what would be in order. Place one rare, a few of the uncommon, and a load of the commons in there. I think this would be more desirable for people who want to practically use the minis rather than simply collect them IF the rarity went something like this:

Common: things you always need a lot of. peasants, goblins, kobolds, skeletons, zombies etc.
Uncommon: things that you usually dont need more than one of, but could use a couple once in a while. also mini's suitable for PCs should fall into this rarity.
Rare: things you will only ever need one of. these are your Dragons, your Retrievers etc.

The problem i ALWAYS had with the wotc minis was that yea you got some cool looking rares, but i always ended up having to trade them away for loads of the common things that i always needed more of. i couldn't tell you how many times i've had to sit down at the table and explain to my players "Ok guys, the orcs and the humans' those are all peasant townsfolk. and i dont have enough goblin minis either, so the goblins, kobolds, will o' wisps, and small fire elementals are all actually goblins. got it?"

I think i speak for most DM's out there that the minis are less for collection and more for practical use. If i knew in the pack, regardless of the value of the rare or how nice the uncommons are, i was getting say 8 random commons all of which i will get alot of use out of then i would be far more inclined to purchase this minis line, even at a much higher price per pack. but as is, this line is one i cannot justify the cost of, and will simply wait to see you selection of singles and order exactly what i want.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
pres man wrote:

I love the Gonk Droid! In SW games I use them for astromechs if I need some. In D&D (not PF due to IP), well I've found a use for them as well.

As for Twig Blights, I'm sure that if one tries they could find a use for them as well.

JMD031 wrote:
This just in! You cannot have your cake and eat it too. More on this story tonight at 11.
Damn! I always thought it was you can't eat your cake and have it too.

It goes both ways.

Ted Turner: "Like a bisexual"

Thanks Ted...that was the joke.

Cheliax

All the previewed minis look good to me, except for the dire rat (which is awful). Maybe I'd like some wash on them, but it's not a biggie; at least they are better than many of the 4E era minis I own (but not as good as the minis in the last two sets).

However, I don't like the idea of random single minis, because I'd have to choose between paying 50 dollars for shipping *or* paying 4-6 euros per pack. I love that Paizo is selling minis of Pathfinder heroes and monsters, and I can even understand why they will be randomized, but single-mini boosters at this price may be just too much for me. Unfortunately.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

Gary, I agree.

Mazra, no need to forgive. My post was already long enough without addressing the resale of opened boxes. Consider everything I said to be in reference to the products on this page. Until I see otherwise, I think buying these boxes will be the primary form of purchase for this product. We can't go far into discussion of secondary markets without getting into opinion because we haven't seen how this is all going to play out. Without a game driving secondary market sales, can any of us truly predict how secondary sales of these minis will go?

Most minis I'm aware of (and I am admittedly not an expert) were themselves a game, meaning the mini was a primary purchase for the experience. These minis are an unnecessary (albeit awesome) enhancement to a game. To me, that makes it a totally different situation, one where randomness is not inherent in the game itself. How will that affect people's purchasing decisions or decisions to keep the "extra" minis they didn't want with their random purchase? A lot of DMs I know simply cope with having minis they didn't want which would naturally limit the secondary market when compared to games like DDM skirmish or MTG. But that's just my anecdotal experience.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Personally, about the only thing I'd really like tham to change is to have larger booster sizes. Single Minis aren't as fun as opening a bigger box with 4+ assorted minis inside it. My RPing group is planning on buying a case to check them out, so in that way it's a bit irrelevant, but loved picking up WotC's older packs (before the visible minis) every now and then and tearing one open.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I really love how there are several people giving Paizo crap about this. They are not "producing" the minis, they mearly own the license. Yes, they will make money off the models and yes they may have some say in the distribution but ultimately Wizkids is in control of the production, distribution and marketing of this product. I suggest for everyone who has an issue with the distribution/marketing of this product to take it over to Wizkids and let them know because posting about here is really not the way to go. Sure Paizo employees can say "Hey Wizkids...there are a lot of people unhappy with your proposed plan" to which Wizkids can respond with "It's cool, we've already used this model with Heroclix, it will be fine". Basically what I'm saying is good message, but you are barking up the wrong tree.

On a different note, I agree with a lot of people because I too hate the randomness (see my first post in this thread for my reaction to the news) but I have since decided that it will be a necessary evil for this product to exist at all. Several people are hung up on the individual figure packaging, which sucks, but the next set will not be like that. However...there may not be a next set without Wizkids making some kind of money off of this one, so catch 22 there. All in all, while it might not appear so, you the consumer have all the power here as you can choose what happens with this product with your money. If you do not want to buy random packs, don't. If you don't like the idea of a marked up secondary market for the figures you do want, don't buy them either. You have a choice here and you are free to use it. No one is holding a gun up to your head and forcing you to purchase any of this product or they will shoot you....at least I hope not.


Encounter packs sounds amazing, and so does individual sales here. So my grief over just randoms was misplaced, it seems. Thank you.

I'll just cross my fingers for a familiar nonblind pack and so on too eventually.

There's a lot of people who have talked about washing (especially with Devlan Mud) in this thread, has anyone actually tried that with anything WizKids have made before and have some pics of the result? The Dire Rat model looks amazing for example, but it screams for some Devlan - but not every model is as friendly to washes as others...

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