Boss level creatures game the action economy in other ways.
A wizard who can cast two Disintegrates, or Forcecage + Cloudkill, or Dominate two enemies in a round, will always be more effective than the fighter who can swing his sword four times in a round.
This idea I and some others have been running by, that multiple spells are possible with decent bab and as a full round doesn't break the game.
Being able to cast multiple spells per round with out some limitation (swift action + increase in spell level / only a few times a day with money investment) is definitely the most powerful thing a wizard can do. Period. That's why the ability is a freaking 9th lvl spell (Time Stop) and even that has restrictions that you can not effect other creatures. You are giving a wizard time stop at lvl 12 with no restrictions. If you were a lvl 12 wizard with the ability to cast 3 spells (2 spells normally + 1 quickened spell) what could you do?
As a full round, it is in this example of play, that spellcasters can get off more if they have the bab. For melee of course they have their own limits on attack numbers, I am using full round here, just applying it to all classes evenly. Got to go full round and not move around to get out the extra juice.
Additional attacks can be considered extremely limited, but bear in mind melee's and ranged get there before the spellcasters.
I find it odd the warmages with better bab, cannot shell quicker. What else would they use the bab for? Excuse me, got to wait a few more seconds.
"I think it would be crazy overpowered in favor of casters." I my experience it isn't good sir. And as the people above have illustrated, there are already ways people have been playing as casters that cast multiple spells in the same round. Items, feats, its a bonanza of spells. In our groups, the quicken rods (lol) don't really make an appearance.
As far as Pathfinder "bosses" go, one of several things is occurring:
1) What is described is their "power-up" suite. These are the spells, abilities, and items the boss is using [i]prior[/] to combat.
2) The text is describing actions to be taken in order, as permitted by opportunity and/or necessity, over several rounds.
3) Once in a great while, yes, a boss gets an ability to cast like that, multiple times a round. These are very rare, but it does happen.
Also, gignere brings up the point of the gish/EK/magus/fighty-magic type of dude. There's at least one old battle sorcerer variant out there that had the cleric's BAB that also comes to mind. Many spellcasting classes, perhaps all of them, can be downright scary with the stuff they can do with one spell per round. Your campaign doesn't sound like it's a big problem. Out of curiosity, what do your casters do typically on those rounds where they cast multiple times per round?
To those earlier, miracle and time stop really don't come into our games much. I'm trying to make the game good levels 6-13 (1-5 is already fun and tense), not deal with level 9 spells and/or their misuse.
And yes, with the right rod, a spellcaster could already blow away the nines... to the nines.
"You are giving a wizard time stop at lvl 12 with no restrictions."
Eeehhhh? Wizards don't get time stop at level 12. They just get their second spell, if you go with bab and full round, which they can get in other ways anyway (without it being a full round, then they zip off with a move).
Warmages use their better BAB to hit better with the attack-roll requiring spells they specialize in, and to hit with the swords they have some actual training in. Same as a magus or eldritch knight.
The existing items, feats, and spells which allow multiple feats for round require considerable investment of character resources, commensurate with the fact that casting multiple spells is pretty much the best thing you can do in the game.
-The Quicken feat increases the spell level by a whopping +4, preventing you from quickening any spell higher than 5th level normally, and even that quickened 5th level requires you to be 17th level, minimum.
-A Lesser Rod of Quicken Metamagic, which only allows you to quicken up to third level spells, costs 35,000 gp. A greater one, which lets you quicken 6th-9th level spells that normally couldn't be quickened, costs 170,000. Not chump change at any level.
-Time Stop is a 9th level spell.
Under your rules, a wizard could cast as many as 4 spells in one round--a swift action spell like Cold Ice Strike, plus two 'iterative' spells, plus a quickened spell. And only the Quickened spell required any actual investment of resources. If that has yet to break your games in two, you are a very lucky Rust Monster.
To Lathiira on the multiple rounds of fun. Whatever works to bring down the big nasty. Sonic fireballs, black tentacles with more black tentacles or cloudkill, dual fireballs one maximised, raise defensive magics properly, heal and buff if cleric, funniest was dance of ruin twice, offence spell and fly or something similar. If a cleric is trying to hold on, cast some type of slightly damaging spell (remember a Callistrian doing something with summoned whips), and cast healing. A spell to move around, an attack spell (doesn't always go well, but some don't want to be rooted to the spot) can also rock and roll.
We also run warlocks by bab. They get decent bab so they can throw a few things out there quickly. Now the warlocks in the game have been pretty deadly, but they do shoot and don't stuff around. Eldritch blast isn't that heavy hitting, they seem made to blast away a bit. If the warlock, why not he others I say?
If everyone is going quicken to get that extra spell, or multiple quickens isn't it a bit bland? Better to do it by bab I say.
Well Revan, these rods, it sounds like people just go down the road and by them in their games. 170k not an issue for the best.
If this isn't making utter havoc out of your games, 3.5 L, my hat's off to you. Even with things like the black tentacles going off repeatedly, that's a game with some resilience. If your martial characters are good with all this too, stupendous!
Well, strictly from a 'realism' standpoint, think about what you have to do to to cast a spell in the system.
1: dig into your spell component pouch to find the components
2: Say the words and make the gestures associated with the particular spell. In classical magic words and gestures have to coincide at specific points.
Like it or not, these are things that take up a finite amount of time that really cannot be speeded up with practice. Where if you have any experience with hand to hand fighting you can train yourself to reposition your sword quicker or use your own momentum to get another hit in faster.
And Evil Lincoln, I can't find it now but there was a youtube vid of a guy launching 10 arrows from a longbow in 5 seconds and all of them hit a 1 1/2 foot target at 50 yards. So additional attacks for a bow aren't that out of the realm of possibility when you consider that high level PC's are supposed to be superhuman.
Regards,
Pol
Edited for typos
A 15th level hexcrafter Magus would be brutal in this system under the right situation. Evil Eye (saves), Misfortune, and Slumber all in one round! Add split hex in there and you got a crowd control machine.
Bend in the wind, bend in the wind!
Course I've also seen two spells in a round that force saves, do nothing due to SR or a high save. That is a bit sad to see. Or a friend's psion that does very little at high level except look like he has a migrain, because some saves got passed.
Ever seen a waiter pass a DC 25 will save with a natural 20? I have.
I spoilered a post.
Again time stop comes up, and again it is not in games I've played. Maybe you all start with timestop and ninth levels spells, but I've barely even seen it used (once in second ed). Our games get to around the tenth level mark after a while, not to the 17th. Do many here start higher?
With the standard only, you can already do a long infinite loop with multiple time stops and held actions, if you have multiple time stops.
I don't go for Magus, it is a bit overpowered isn't it?
Fozbek my point was even with two spells a round as a full round, it doesn't mean a player will have a powerful effect. Go area of effect, it can be countered by reflex and evasion, go force saves and they can be made, but cast two spells as a full round and you are rooted to the spot, by the rule of what full round involves, multiple attacks in which you don't move. So that's what we have seen, speaking as a long term dm who has done it this way.
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why would anyone with this house rule in their game ever play a non caster?
The rule might be fun for an arena hack and slash (if it was only casters or it would be massively unbalanced).
Interesting idea to talk about i guess but there is no way that this could even be imagined where this would not break the game.
To Gignere, haste gives another spell as a full, since we take in all contributing attacks as part of a full round 'o' casting. So a 12th level wizard with haste would cast three spells if he didn't move in a round. He would also run out of spells quicker, and provoke three attacks of opportunity to say an invisible foe right there or someone with mage killer. If someone or a party holds actions to attack when casting, he could lose them all, and be stabbed/bashed/cut.
These rods that seem ubiquitous for those whom play no full round casting, they don't come up in my games. Rods and staffs are incredibly rare and expensive after all. Hard to roll on treasure, hard to find. And I maintain dnd should not be about crafting magic items for every inventory slot. The crafting chronicles. Problem with this quickened rod business, everyone wants them, your player will get the lowest first probably. Then the Dm will have to give more powerful spellcasting enemies the next rod up, so that they can compete. Then they players will kill that chappy, take the rod. Repeat the process over time for the next rod level. I cannot think of anything more bland than spellcasters all having these rods and all needing them to get more spells off at higher level. I solve it by basing spellcasting speed on bab. The players start low level or 1, push on till they get to two spells and then have a ball. Sometimes some dms don't like players having fun and using their spells in nice combos, so they rein it in. Which is what has happened with this dm at present, whom has played clerics of above eighth level in two of my campaigns. So it is a bit sad on my end. :''(
If someone picked something to specifically abuse the system, certain prestige classes say that aren't balanced, that wouldn't be allowed at the table. But I really have no problems with them spell blasting the opponents to death in new and amusing combinations, that is part of the game after all! That is why magicka is such a good game :)
On diviners and initiative, I have never seen or heard of a spellcaster winning initiative all the time. It is hard for them to be quicker than rogues and rangers.
Sigil87, it hasn't broken the game in many games. I'm up to about my tenth campaign as a dm. Course my games aren't about pure spellcaster heroes or magic items (i.e. find all the rods). Yeah we don't actually get that many spellcasters, about 2 of 4. 1 of 4 in the latest. Cheers.
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I've never seen rods used in any game I played in. The only case of multiple spells in a round I saw was the use of a Sudden Quicken feat to cast a spell without raising it's level or spending gold on items. Although my dwarven eldritch knight did use feather fall and expeditious retreat in the same round, but since that is how the spells were designed, it didn't overpower anything.
Everything in this thread makes my head want to explode.
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To Gignere, haste gives another spell as a full, since we take in all contributing attacks as part of a full round 'o' casting. So a 12th level wizard with haste would cast three spells if he didn't move in a round. He would also run out of spells quicker, and provoke three attacks of opportunity to say an invisible foe right there or someone with mage killer. If someone or a party holds actions to attack when casting, he could lose them all, and be stabbed/bashed/cut.
These rods that seem ubiquitous for those whom play no full round casting, they don't come up in my games. Rods and staffs are incredibly rare and expensive after all. Hard to roll on treasure, hard to find. And I maintain dnd should not be about crafting magic items for every inventory slot. The crafting chronicles. Problem with this quickened rod business, everyone wants them, your player will get the lowest first probably. Then the Dm will have to give more powerful spellcasting enemies the next rod up, so that they can compete. Then they players will kill that chappy, take the rod. Repeat the process over time for the next rod level. I cannot think of anything more bland than spellcasters all having these rods and all needing them to get more spells off at higher level. I solve it by basing spellcasting speed on bab. The players start low level or 1, push on till they get to two spells and then have a ball. Sometimes some dms don't like players having fun and using their spells in nice combos, so they rein it in. Which is what has happened with this dm at present, whom has played clerics of above eighth level in two of my campaigns. So it is a bit sad on my end. :''(
If someone picked something to specifically abuse the system, certain prestige classes say that aren't balanced, that wouldn't be allowed at the table. But I really have no problems with them spell blasting the opponents to death in new and amusing combinations, that is part of the game after all! That is why magicka is such a good game :)
On diviners and initiative, I...
Question, Is Eldritch Knight or Abjurant Champion in your game ubalanced, how about Duskblade, or Bard? Magus..Summoner..Wizard?
Everything in this thread makes my head want to explode.*wraps Sylvanite's head in duct tape*
There. Now remember to periodically loosen it to relieve pressure.
thnkoo.
It's been shown over and over again that in terms of damage output, nothing beats a fighter. This MAY have changed since Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic were released (I don't own either, yet), but speaking strictly "core" rules, the Fighter is king. Yet, no matter how many times the math is shown, some people will still refuse to believe it. I think this false opinion that wizards are damage-dealing juggernauts is a holdover from previous D&D editions.
HOWEVER,
That doesn't mean that I agree with your stance that spellcasters should get more spells per round using BAB. I don't. I agree with your DM.
While spellcasters can't match the damage potential of fighters, they can do lots and lots of things other than dealing damage, and therefore their versatility is unmatched. Letting the spellcaster double up on defensive spells (mage armor, shield, and similar spells) before anyone else attacks them, or double up on shut-down spells (enthrall, sleep, and similar spells) can REALLY alter the difficulty of a combat encounter.
I think your DM made the best decision (and also the correct one, as per the rules) on this matter.
I'm not saying anything is wrong with your house-rule, but it does make spellcasters more powerful, for reasons other than damage potential. If you do use your house-rule, I would suggest balancing the power-up with some kind of drawback. Perhaps spellcasters that try to double-cast without using the feat or a metamagic rod are dazed the following round. If that's too much for you, you could allow a Will save (DC = 10 + highest spell level cast) to be staggered instead. Just a thought.
"Question, Is Eldritch Knight or Abjurant Champion in your game ubalanced, how about Duskblade, or Bard? Magus..Summoner..Wizard?"
No one has ever played an eldritch knight, magus, summoner or abjurant champion. There was a duskblade once, but they were found to be cheating on their spells (lol). Wizards are just fine and dandy, bards are still considered quite weak by the group at large even when they get to two spells a round (I am in Melbourne, I come from the N.T and dnd groups up there, I've also known this interpretation of actions to be the norm in Singaporean groups and Singaporean dms).
Jason, yep, fighters and melee can be giants. Wizards can be damage dealing juggernauts, but not for long, and barbs with x3-x4 weapons, deadly swashbucklers, ninjas with exotic or unusual weapons, all compete.
We've tried some spell fatigue rules. They were amongst the worst rules I've ever seen and completely ridiculous, and weakened spellcasters considerably. Warlocks, whom previously could shoot away with no problems could pass out doing what they used to just do. People kept well away from spellcasters for a time, or simply pushed themselves till penalties were about to come in, and then didn't cast for the rest of the encounter. The rules were rejected. You've got to be careful you don't punish players for what they come to the game to do, shoot some spells, have some fun.
Except it does highly resemble it, because an item is often used to add an extra spell per round, over multiple rounds. This, and the move is still left over when using the item in the official version of actions means we are not so far apart, but doing the two legally gives a move advantage over the two or more via full-round.
The problems don't keep it from being universal, that I don't have companies and distributors pushing my idea of bab, actions and spell casting is what keeps it from being universal. The realities behind publishing must be kept in mind if we are discussing reach and audience. The multiple spells in a round is already done via other means through other players. It doesn't break the game, it makes it exciting.
You really want to gank the boss mage.
I'd play a martial character, but I play martial characters all the time, and enjoy taking down those dangerous spellcasters. Yes, it is actually possible.
Okay, now I am convinced this guy is trolling. "If only the publishers would stop using their pesky RAW and take my personal houserules, then my rules would be universal!". WTF?
Well I'm discussing a verdict on action and attacks, which applies across multiple groups, so how is that trolling?
These little homerules have moved around quite a bit. Like rust monsters.
Ignored.Careful now, "ignoring" is a hot word lately. ;)So why aren't you ignoring him, if you believe he's trolling?
Okay, now I am convinced this guy is trolling.
Troll! :p
Troll! :p
Successful Troll welcomes new-found brother!
Interesting. So a Fighter 6/ Wizard 1 can cast 2 spells at once. I guess I can kind of see your logic for the Wizard who has a terrible BAB and the Cleric whose spell list is more about support, but how do you deal with Druids or multiclassing oddities? Do you have some other house rules that buff the fighter or water down casters? I mean, for all I know it could just be the set up of your world and adventure.
Cheers Ion. The other classes don't seem to need it. Low bab spellcasters really get slowed down by it.
Druids in the gaming experiences I've been in, seem to have their spell list spread out, so some offensive, some summoning, some buffing, some healing. Weirdly it feels the same for clerics too. They don't specialise in the way that wizards or warmages do (sorcerers are even more specialised).
Chatting to a friend here, whom sees, yes, the d4 hit die (we still do that for wizards/sorcerers) and the slowest bab progression is the pay off for specialisation. clerics and druids can do more, but more isn't always the best thing.
A wizard pumped up on haste in our rules, only gets three spells at 12 (at 11 it is still 2) by 12 a two weapon fighter might be up to five or six attacks if hasted. The spells are great, but it doesn't always stop the axe (stoneskin or not) and clerics are nifty, but just end up being battered around for longer. Taking longer to beat them to death, praise the Lord!
For multiclass spellcasting, we've found martial and spell mixing to be balanced. Spell levels are lower. I actually really like the moderate number of melee levels, low number of spellcaster levels. Another friend had a barb 1/wizard rest (grapple focus) character planned out. Would have been funny.
This isn't about trolling...
Just because you disagree with what the rules are in (some) multiple groups I've been in, heard about and run, doesn't mean we are trolling. It is just a rules discussion, you don't have to try and shut it down with allegations of trolling.
Cheers Ion. The other classes don't seem to need it. Low bab spellcasters really get slowed down by it.
Druids in the gaming experiences I've been in, seem to have their spell list spread out, so some offensive, some summoning, some buffing, some healing. Weirdly it feels the same for clerics too. They don't specialise in the way that wizards or warmages do (sorcerers are even more specialised).
Chatting to a friend here, whom sees, yes, the d4 hit die (we still do that for wizards/sorcerers) and the slowest bab progression is the pay off for specialisation. clerics and druids can do more, but more isn't always the best thing.
A wizard pumped up on haste in our rules, only gets three spells at 12 (at 11 it is still 2) by 12 a two weapon fighter might be up to five or six attacks if hasted.
Three spells, plus an actually quickened spell, plus a swift action spell if he has a useful one. That's up to five spells a round. And unlike the fighter, who suffers diminishing returns with each swing, each of the wizard's iterative spells will be just as effective as the last, since most spells don't make attack rolls.
...It is just a rules discussion, you don't have to try and shut it down with allegations of trolling.
No, the rules are quite clear - no discussion here.
This is a balance discussion. The core of your houserules is that you think melees with multiple attacks would be much better/funnier/whatever than caster with one spell per round.
Well, under the right set of houserules everything can work, BUT, as I see it, there is no reason to play anything else but a Wizard in your games.
At 12th Level I can create a Wizard that casts 3 times a round and that has such a high Will Save DC that almost no monster appropiate for this level will pass it. Or a Summoner that will create an instant army of quite powerful creatures. Or a Conjurer that will coat the battlefield with CC allowing no opponent to come into melee range of the group.
And all this happens while the Barbarian is still on his way towards his first opponent...
If that works for your group, fine, it just isn't Pathfinder or even 3.5!
It's an interesting discussion that has merit. While quicken spell is an option eventually, I tend to dislike metamagic's implementation in general, so the idea of having a way to cast additional spells without having to resort to it is something that is interesting to consider, even while recognizing the need to be very careful how it is done.
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What about scaling the available spell levels or lowering CL per spells?
So spells cast at lower bab have lower CL, and if your CL is below the minimum of a spell (like cl7 7th level spells), you cant cast it .
it make using lower level buffs more usefull at later levels, without having to resort to all the "typical" gear
"Multiple uses of an ability to do X damage to a guy are not as useful as multiple uses of an ability that hits a largish area and has Y% chance to put everyone out of the fight (typical wizard/bard tactics)"
Responding to that, certain spells blanket areas with damage, but those same spells can not crit. One guy above really went into the merits of fighters, and invokers or warmage types do seem to creep ahead on damage and such (I particularly like the warmage slight bonus to all damage), and then someone gets a x4 or x3 crit and it is all over, sometimes before it has even begun.
On damage putting everything out of the fight, well the hit points of monsters have gone up in pathfinder (I use a mix of 3, 3.5 and path monsters) and I've found if they don't have SR, plenty of d6s doesn't immediately end the fights of the day.
Sunshadow21, I too dislike the metamagic implementation. I find watching the spellcasting prestige classes very closely solves a lot of problems before they have begun.
"Well, under the right set of houserules everything can work, BUT, as I see it, there is no reason to play anything else but a Wizard in your games."
Except, they do play other things. Wizards aren't that common (currently fighters are the most common), clerics & druids can get off two earlier, warmages are better on damage than wizards, sorcerers have better staying power. So wizards are not the be all and end all. Wizards also have some glaring weaknesses which pushes some players away: I don't always run in temperate environments, so forts come in a bit, low hp is a real problem.
"If that works for your group, fine, it just isn't Pathfinder or even 3.5!"
I may be from quite the heretical tradition, but in areas such as the N.T (Northern Territory in Australia), Singapore and some groups in Melbourne, what I am doing and playing IS 3.5. You can say, it's not it's not! But in these places it has been. The interpretation of full round actions goes this way. We have tried a lot of homebrew over the years, some gets abandoned some gets kept, so I am not playing 3.5 pure and my name is a reaction of preferring the base 3.5 rules over pathfinder. I am not exactly playing pathfinder either, but some things I do take from them, skill changes, some classes and other useful ideas. The beta and such considered their new rules additions, to be adopted, modified or discarded by dms, a way to carry 3.5 forward, but you take what you want. That is what I have done.
To Revan, yes, a spellcaster can get up to a lot of spells. If they are an enemy, my players don't usually let them get that far. This giving of spell-casters the full round cultivates some good party tactics.
I do somewhat agree with the concept that higher level wizards should be able to cast better. I realize that this is reflected by more powerful spells, but why does a level 20 wizard take just as long to cast a magic missile spell as a 1st level wizard? At some point, it makes sense that he'd either a) get more out of it (beyond the obvious scaling of spells, which caps) or b) do it quicker.
This might be able to be represented by a "metamagic bonus" - at a certain spell level, lower level spells get an inherent bonus that can be used to apply metamagic feats - one of which could be Quicken Spell. So, for example, at level 7, when wizards get 4th level spells, all their 1st level spell slots become "2nd" level spell slots - they can still only put 1st level spells there, but they can add free metamagic to them to bring those spells to 2nd. At 9th level, 2nd level spells become "3rd" level slots, which can hold only 1st or 2nd level spells, plus free metamagic that increases them to 3rd level. At 11th level, the 3rd level slots become "4th" level, the 1st level slots become "3rd" level, and the 2nd level slots stay "3rd" level. (This example has not been tested for balanced play, you might need to slow the progression even more, with 1st level slots becoming "3rd" level slots at 13th or even 15th level.)
This makes it useful to high level wizards to make some use of low level spells without filling all their high level slots, gets rid of the strangeness of a mighty archmage who can't do better at casting a sleep spell than a rank amateur, and still doesn't let them overload on the most powerful spells (since the base spell is still limited by the spell slot's original level).
3.5 Loyalist, I want to play in your game.
Being given a "free win everything" will be fun.
You can say "It's 3.5" all you want, but it factually isn't, any more than it's Pathfinder. It's your game, but it's not 3.5, it's not Pathfinder, it's not 2nd edition, or any edition of D&D. Casters have never had iterative spells in the D&D rulebooks; that much is excessively clear.
I'm not saying you're wrong to use it; I can't fathom how it hasn't snapped your games in two, but if you enjoy it, and your friends enjoy it, than by all means, play that way. But it is, definitively, a house rule, and a pretty massive one, at that.
Tossing multiple fireballs isn't really the issue here, though blaster wizards are going to adore that part. But Cloudkill+Forcecage is a brutal enough combo when they have to be cast on consecutive rounds, or you need to invest in a higher spell slot or metamagic rod to pull it off in one. Doing both at once for free is killer. Or how about the ability to precede every enchantment spell you ever cast with a casting of Mind Fog, for free? Or double-dipping on any given Save-or-Lose like Flesh to Stone, Feeblemind, or what have you.
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This thread is fascinating. It's like D&D/PF played "on the streets", loose rules and all dice a-jangling WAM! POW! It sounds kinda bad-a**.
3.5L, I also (like TOZ) do not think you're trolling, and totally believe that this is how you play. Will you answer one question for me? Does your party ever, in these games, encounter NPCs with class levels? Or do you always fight monsters of some type, dragons/etc.? If the answer is "monsters", do you fight a lot of one or two monster groups, or are 6 monsters vs. 4 PCs fights ever done?
I'm not even really driving at any point in particular here, I'm just curious.