Looking for advice on a Grippli cavalry archer build for PFS

I've been trying to make a build work and having a lot of problems figuring out how best to do it.

I am using my Grippli boon to create the character. My original thought was to combine mounted archery like the Mongol's had with some net use. I was looking at riding a giraffe -- mostly for the humor value. Although I like picking unusual combinations, I've come to believe that a boar may be a much better choice for the animal companion.

For a lot of reasons, I have abandoned various portions of that idea.

Since I am using my Grippli boon on the character, I still intend to work the Net Adept feat in. I've decided to be more open about what animal companion/mount I use, but would still like this character to be a mounted build.

There are a huge number of ways this could be built, and none of them seem to especially lend themselves to this concept.

Options I am currently looking at:

With each of these, I can see advantages and disadvantages. I am just having trouble figuring out which of them would make the most viable character build.

This would be the first time I've tried to make a mounted character, which likely is part of the problem. I have experience playing a ranger in a home game, but not any of the other classes listed.

Feats that I think I would want for this build would include:
* Mounted Combat
* Net Adept
* Mounted Archery ? (More important for 3/4 BAB)
* Precise Shot
* Clustered Shot to help against DR

So, what advice do people have to make something like this a viable build?

For clarity, what is it exactly you want to see this character do? This is what I have gathered from your post:

Mounted archery isn't really required. As long as your mount doesn't take more then a single move, you're good - and take no penalties.

I think you will just build the character like you would a standard archer.

I would go sacred huntmaster inquisitor - for access to divine favour - it's very powerful once you can get it up then start filling people with arrows.

Teamwork feats are better off for melee - but for range I would take things like escape route(yay never provoke AOOs for movement again), and shake it off.

Also - until your net becomes magical - please expect to get your net cut apart. I hope you are good friends with someone with mending on their cantrip list.

I mean if you threw a net on ME...I'd probably try to bite through it.

The last time I saw someone fiddle with nets - I spent every encounter fixing all the cut-through nets with mending.

If I were doing this concept, I'd probably go for riding a giant frog. The idea of a frog riding another frog tickles me.

For clarity, what is it exactly you want to see this character do? This is what I have gathered from your post:

Use of the Net Adept Feat

Mounted Archery

Grippli

Am I missing anything?

Yes, that is what I would like.

Grippli using the net with some sort of mount are the absolute minimum requirements.

I believe that having the Net Adept feat will be needed in order to make good use of the weapon, but if there is a reason that isn't true then please explain.

My original idea was mounted archery, but if the tactics become use the net (as a reach weapon) to entangle and then do melee I can live with that. Since escaping a net provokes, I would probably be looking at teamwork feats to take advantage of that.

@Mort
As I understand it, the Mounted Archery feat would reduce a penalty for my mount moving. Archery tends to rack up a lot of penalties.

Giant Frog would require Hunter or Inquisitor. Would I then be looking at a penalty to ride checks for an animal that generally isn't suitable for use as a mount?

You rack no penalties as long as your mount single moves. You rack penalties when your mount double moves. In the tight confines of PFS - it is unlikely that your mount even have the space to double move.

"An entangled creature can escape with a DC 20 Escape Artist check (a full-round action). The net has 5 hit points and can be burst with a DC 25 Strength check (also a full-round action). "

There is no provoking - and also with the 5 hit points it isn't hard for something to cut/burn/whatever the net off. Nets have no hardness. Sure - it does waste an opponent's action.

I would say that frogs are perfectly suitable as mounts!

Escaping from a net is specifically listed in the combat actions as provoking an AoO. I do not know if that applies to either method or only using Escape Artist.

Is there any way to strengthen a net?

It might be one only - but usually PFS mooks aren't alone. So if his buddy cuts HIM out, that's no provoking involved.

Besides - what's stopping the guy who is entangled in the net from drawing a dagger and cutting the net up to free himself?

Except by making it magical, not that I know.

Just remember to go Shortbow and not longbow.

maybe get something like "parting shot" and maybe "Spring-Heeled Style" Though they seem to be originally for fighting on foot maybe you could get something good out of them.

Maybe get your mount the option of attacking while moving.(could also be fun with a giant Cameleon mount but probably not fast enough, you need a mount with at least 35f speed imo)

My choice for best mount would be yolubilis heron. Seems to me that a big heron fits a grippli perfectly.

There are several dips to get the feats faster of your willing to consider those.

Look at escape route for and build with teamwork feats.

What's the builds plan after the net? You can commit fully to the theme and Net and Trident (Combat).

Otherwise I would build in some melee ability for when your done netting.

Some other options:

Perhaps "Focused Shot" for a limited "Int" mod add to damage (standard action within 30f)

Or maybe splash in Investigator and go for "Ranged Study"

Or maybe find a way to pull extra strings out of the "Horse Master" feat

@Mort
Then it sounds like I will have to look at the Impervious enchantment for the net at higher level. I will probably upgrade other equipment before that. It also sounds like I will want a Handy Haversack fairly early so I can just pull more nets out of it as I go.

@Azullius
Thanks for the reminder about short bow!

The idea is still evolving and seems to be limited mostly by what works within the rules. If I switch-hit, it will probably start with a net attack as the animal attacks. That way the opponent will be easier to hit. Since the net would have reach, I assume that attack would come before the mounts.

Also, it looks like Horse Master feat is only useful if I multiclass cavalier with another class, and it wouldn't come in until 6th level at the earliest.

@Grandlounge
The yolubilis heron becomes size large. Aren't there penalties for riding a creature that is too big? My reading is that even the Beastmaster archetype doesn't allow a small size character to get around that.

Yes, Escape Route is one of the teamwork feats I would be making use of.

Which leads nicely into a more general discussion of that.

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Teamwork Feats:

Escape Route is an obvious choice for a teamwork feat. Coordinated Defense looks good for the times I might need a small boost to CMD.

I can't see a good way to make Coordinated Shot useful unless I have a mount with reach.

If I understand it correctly, Covering Fire may be useful though. It doesn't appear to require that the ally I'm aiding have the teamwork feat.

If I do melee, Distracting Charge seems good.

Some of these seem much better on the Hunter or Inquisitor where the teamwork feats are always shared than the Cavalier where the mount would only have it if they take the feat as well or the Cavalier uses their Tactician ability to share the feat.

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Mount:

Right now, I'm looking at riding a boar using the ([Redacted] Mnarrrr!) boon for the mount. If I go through with this, I have the name for my character and her mount.

I had originally looked at Giraffe, but the size large seemed to be a problem.

The yolubilis heron becomes size large.

One oft forgotten caveat is in the CRB: "Instead of taking the listed benefit at 4th or 7th level, you can instead choose to increase the companion's Dexterity and Constitution by 2."

You can keep it medium +2dex +2con at level. The only penalty I see is you lose the ability to fast mount. I recommend keeping the medium either way.

I have a mounted character and I have gmed 10 session with monuted character in the last 3 months (I have a bunch of people playing them currently), and flying combined with medium size is irreplaceable.

Other things:

The way to get reach is to play the primal companion hunter and use the reach evolution.

Coordinated shot is hard to use mounted. But works well if you use the ac to fight and shot from a distance.

Team work feats are better when shared automatically without a doubt.

Distracting charge is ok but does not seem to work with ride by and spirited charge which are the beter melee options imho.

Would a samurai make a better choice as an archer?

Seems like there's some decent options there and they enjoy some ranged benefits.

Bretl the impervious ability is for armour and shields.

Changing the materials used to make it may help.

I would not bank on Escape Route working with all GM's you might play this character with. Check with your GM first. If its PFS, Expect Table Variation.

The mounted combat rules are ambiguous enough, that some GMs will not allow you to essentially gain immunity to AoO's for moving as long as you are mounted. I would not allow this.

Sad that you've given up on trying to make the Giraffe work, as that would have been a hilarious thing.

I wouldn't worry too much about making the net hard to destroy. It's not like they are super expensive, and honestly, if the enemy spends a full round action cutting itself out of the net; is that really so bad? It's basically the same as casting daze. You're making ranged touch attacks with a small, high DEX character; there's really no compelling reason to enchant those nets.

I don't think Net Adept really helps you that much. It lets you use the net as a melee weapon, but it won't be finessable, so you'd be better off throwing it. You can carry multiple nets, so being able to throw unfolded ones just doesn't seem like it's worth a feat. You could probably skip it and still execute your concept fine.

I think you'll need to get Quick Draw around the time that you can start making multiple attacks, so plan for that.

@Cavall

Cavalier is one of the options I'm trying to work out. See the second spoiler in the original post.

As for impervious, perhaps there is also one for armor? The one I'm linking to specifically says weapon.

It isn't clear to me if I can use any of the special materials to make a more rugged net.

Sad that you've given up on trying to make the Giraffe work, as that would have been a hilarious thing.

If someone can show me a way to make it work, I'll go with it. That is why I mentioned it. My fear though is that the character may turn out to be a little underpowered so choosing a mount just for flavor isn't a good idea at that point.

Don't worry though, there will be humor in the character build. It is one of my characters, after all.

@BadBlood
You are right, Quick Draw may be more important than Net Adept. Thanks for the tip!

I wonder when multiple attacks come on line if you could throw a net and then hit with a spirited charge lance?

You can't do both in the same round. With a grippli, you'd probably be better off tossing a net, then peppering them with arrows or throwing weapons. You'd basically be a mobile weapons platform.

Also, Luring Cavalier and Beast Rider appear to be compatible. You could get your giraffe and some nice ranged benefits.

Sorry, I should have said that more clearly. You can't charge and do a ranged attack in the same round.

I wouldn't worry too much about making the net hard to destroy.

Plus you can always have a couple backups on your mount.

You can't do both in the same round. With a grippli, you'd probably be better off tossing a net, then peppering them with arrows or throwing weapons. You'd basically be a mobile weapons platform.

Also, Luring Cavalier and Beast Rider appear to be compatible. You could get your giraffe and some nice ranged benefits.

Luring Cavalier is absolutely required if you are doing an Archer/Cavalier build.

My Alchemist/Cavalier uses Luring Cavalier and it really makes those bombs nasty.

Alchemist/Cavalier? That sounds amazing.

Sorry, I should have said that more clearly. You can't charge and do a ranged attack in the same round.

Thanks that was obvious. My fault for posting before thinking.

Dune drifter cavalier wielding a gun?

You can't do both in the same round. With a grippli, you'd probably be better off tossing a net, then peppering them with arrows or throwing weapons. You'd basically be a mobile weapons platform.

Also, Luring Cavalier and Beast Rider appear to be compatible. You could get your giraffe and some nice ranged benefits.

I looked at Beast Rider. I had expected it to help with an oversized mount.

It gives a specific list of mounts gained by small sized characters. Giraffe is not on the list.

Although at 7th level it greatly expands the ability for medium sized characters, it doesn't do that for small sized characters.

For PFS, the archetype doesn't appear to help a small character that wants to ride a large Giraffe. I was disappointed by this.

Dune drifter cavalier wielding a gun?

I had to look that one up online.

Interesting archetype, but I don't see anything in it that helps with the net or archery. It appears to be basically a mounted gunslinger. Since it is Charisma based it seems more suitable to other races -- a grippli would actually prefer being Wisdom based.

I don't have Inner Sea Combat, and the archetype doesn't appear to help with this concept. I may keep in mind for a different character.

Just remember to go Shortbow and not longbow.

...

A composite longbow is a much better choice than a shortbow.

COMPOSITE LONGBOW

You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted.
...

Azullius Koujou wrote:

Just remember to go Shortbow and not longbow.

...

A composite longbow is a much better choice than a shortbow.

Strange, I had originally thought they were treated the same as longbows. It seems that isn't the case.

A longbow is too unwieldy to use while you are mounted.

You can use a composite longbow while mounted.

Looks like Composite Longbow for the character assuming it goes archery.

Okay, so you're committed to riding a Large giraffe. I can respect that. How about the Wild Child Brawler? They get to select whatever animal companion they want, along with some bonus feats, martial flexibility, and the ability of your companion to learn combat maneuvers. You would also get the scaling damage of brawler's flurry as a nice back up in melee.

Your routine could be tossing a net on an enemy (which would give them a -4 to their CMD), then have your giraffe close on them and pull off a combat maneuver.

One item that you might be interested in is the

@Badblood

I wouldn't say committed to the Giraffe. More like current plans are Boar unless someone can show me a good way to get the Giraffe. I like the unusual choices.

Looks like I have another build to consider. The Wild Child certainly could work with a net build. It wouldn't be an archer at that point (the restrictions on the archetype makes me think that wouldn't work well) but it has some other possibilities.

I was aware of the horseman' swaddle, and for many of the builds it would be part of the planned equipment.

Thanks for pointing these out!

Wild child also make a great dip for a hunter if you want to qualify for pack flanking.