On Leadership and Riding Dragons

So I've had a great idea for a long-term goal for my next game. I'm going to be playing a small-sized cavalier/bard/Battle Herald whose job is largely to be party buff and occasional charger. And because I love Leadership I wanted to use the rules that allow you to get a young dragon as a mount.

Problem is that a young red (there are reasons, but I won't go into them here) is a CR 10. This means in order to get one as a mount I'd have to be a character of 18th level. That's no good.

Since my character is small I was thinking of getting a very young red as a mount, but there aren't rules listed for that. Is it still CR + 8 (making it level 16, which is still a bit high), or is there some other formula I haven't been able to find yet?

Any and all aid is appreciated. If possible I'd love to manage this by level 12 or 14.

Thanks!

Dooooooot.

A very young red has considerably less abilities than a young red, so it is reasonable for it to be less than +8, but exactly where it should fall would be a GM call.

You didn't explain why it has to be red, but depending on why that is exactly you might be able to re-skin another monstrous cohort to a red dragon or drake-like creature. A red dragon-shaped creature that had the same stats as giant eagle or pegasus could be had as a cohort level 6, using a manticore as possibly replacing the spikes with a fire breath attack could be level 9. Depending on how exact you require your red dragon to have red dragon game stats this might be an option.

A very young red has considerably less abilities than a young red, so it is reasonable for it to be less than +8, but exactly where it should fall would be a GM call.

You didn't explain why it has to be red, but depending on why that is exactly you might be able to re-skin another monstrous cohort to a red dragon or drake-like creature. A red dragon-shaped creature that had the same stats as giant eagle or pegasus could be had as a cohort level 6, using a manticore as possibly replacing the spikes with a fire breath attack could be level 9. Depending on how exact you require your red dragon to have red dragon game stats this might be an option.

In this case it is definitely required for it to be a full dragon, instead of another creature with a similar look; genuine article only. The backstory is that the cavalier, a member of the Order of the Dragon, has been given a mount that is a dragon stuck in the form of a pony as punishment. So he has to show it courage, compassion, and to generally train the very young and very angry red out of destructive ways before it can become a great wyrm. It's one part prison-redemption story and one part big surprise for the rest of the party when the spell is lifted and they now have a dragon in their midst.

All I could find were the stats for young, so I didn't know if very young just wasn't included due to size, or if I'd missed a formula somewhere.

There... is a third party Dragon Rider class that could help you out here. Lemme grab that link...

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/dragon rider

See if that works out for you?

Also, if you don't care if your dragon is more powerful, have the main PC technically be the dragon and have it get leadership to have a cavalier cohort.

the little book on dragon PCs was worth it as they seem really balanced, and Taninim lore was a nice read.

also, according to you needing to teach it a new alignment, that is very possible for a Taninim, not so for a normal red dragon, who by nature exemplify destruction as their core personality trait. you're in essence trying to teach a eagle to hate flying.(though who cares if it's a home game)

There... is a third party Dragon Rider class that could help you out here. Lemme grab that link...

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/dragon rider

See if that works out for you?

I appreciate the link Kaelan, but third party stuff is a no-go.

Kaelan Ashenveil wrote:

There... is a third party Dragon Rider class that could help you out here. Lemme grab that link...

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/dragon rider

See if that works out for you?

I appreciate the link Kaelan, but third party stuff is a no-go.

well then, you are SOL. gonna be very late game to gain the respect of a dragon to be your mount.

forced situation circumstances aside, i guess keep him as a pony til much later. :P

I also like that book's reason for why dragons act the way they do. They basically are born/hatched, like normal but while they're in the egg they dream, and the first dragon basically has a certain portion of their mind imprint on them. ingraining that into the core of their mind. Their original thought is of this, and by being true to one self you respect the first dragon.

So, in my head cannon at least the red dragon would literally rather die than be noble or honorable, as this would be like defacing/shaming the true mother of dragonkind. Dragon's are nothing if not prideful.

P.S. red dragons original thought is of unadulterated Destruction, pure predatory dominance.

once again, personal head cannon, home games are fine, not sure of what actual pathfinder says on this.

Disclaimer: The following is not hard rules, it's an analysis to aid a GM ruling. There are no hard rules for this.

The idea behind monster cohorts is to figure out what level heroic NPC they are closest to. A very young red dragon has 9 HD, so let's start with a 9th level character: a half-elf barbarian (invulnerable rager).

• Using the NPC array, stats could be 17/12/13/12/14/9 (including +2 racial and two stat increases from levelling). Str and Con increase to 21 and 17 during rage, making all stats but Wis and Cha identical to the dragon's; Wis is slightly higher and Cha is slightly lower.

• The dragon and the barbarian have identical HP and BAB, land speed, and number of feats. They have the same Fort save, and when raging the same Will save. Both are immune to sleep.

• The dragon's attack routine is modestly better than that granted by the Animal Fury and Lesser Beast Totem rage powers. The +9 natural armour is equivalent to the AC granted by a breastplate and the Beast Totem rage power; though note the dragon can gain an easy boost by taking armour proficiency so their AC situation is still a bit better.

• If the barbarian spends their FCB on a skill point, the dragon gets one extra skill point per level; the barbarian gets Skill Focus. About even.

• For senses, the dragon gets Dragon senses and smoke vision VS low-light vision and +2 perception. Win: dragon, definitely.

• For special defenses, the dragon gets immunity to fire and paralysis (but also vulnerable cold), Ref +3 VS DR 4/-, +2 vs enchantment, and fire resist 2. Win: Maybe barbarian? DR is serious business.

• For miscellaneous, the dragon gets Fly 150ft, Breath weapon (30-ft. cone, DC 17, 4d10 fire) VS 1 extra rage power. Win: dragon, definitely.

So the advantages for the dragon compared to a 9th level character are slightly better mundane attacks and defense, significantly better senses, flight, the breath weapon, and the fact that they don't have to rage to maintain these benefits (though a 9th level barbarian typically doesn't run out of rage).

How many levels would it take to make up the gap? I'd say no more than 3: level 12. At that point the barbarian has an extra 3 HD, +3 BAB, roughly equivalent saves, a feat, more skill points, two more rage powers (possibly Greater Beast Totem and Come and Get Me, both fantastic), an extra +1 natural armour from beast totem, and DR increases to 6/-. The dragon's senses and fly speed still offer superior utility, but it's not game-breaking at this point and the barbarian takes the lead in simple combat power.

So yes, it's reasonable for you to have a very young red dragon cohort at level 14, and a generous GM might even allow it at 13.