Anyone have this yet? Opinions?

Anyone have this yet? Opinions?

Hi Justin,

Sigurd had some comments in this thread: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/products/licensees/superGeniusGamesIntroducesTheGeniusGuideToTheDragonri der

If you've got any questions though I'd be happy to answer them.

Hyrum.
Super Genius Games

How many pages?

How many pages?

Hey Zootcat,

It's 13 pages including the credit page and OGL license (which both fit on 1, so 12 pages of game content.)

Hyrum.

I wanted to let you guys know that RPGNow/DriveThru have reviewed the Dragonrider and given it 4/5 stars:

You can read the review here: http://www.rpgnow.com/product_reviews_info.php?products_id=65893&review s_id=22196

Hyrum.

Just read through this class.

WOW! These guys are P O W E R F U L! Like, Paladin-powerful without the alignment restriction.

Fast base attack progression, really strong save bonus progression that scales with the BAB, and limited casting ability.

The dragon is treated more like a Divine Bonded steed than an animal companion.

While I like the base attack progression, the fact that the dragonrider is otherwise weak in melee will make it kind of tough to play as a PC; there are many situations where a dragon will simply not fit (literally) onto the battle field.

I would have liked to see something similar to a Sneak Attack type of bonus.

All things considered, though, this looks like a FUN class to play! I would totally allow it in one of my campaigns.

I have this and it is a good product but the abilities associated with different example dragons seem a little off:

The copper dragon gets waterbreathing and wave mastery, gold gets uncanny dodge, silver gets incinerate, blues go from medium to large to gargantuan while greens go from large to huge to gargantuan despite blues being the more powerful of the two and the more powerful ones starting out as larger otherwise (ie gold, silver and red (and should be blue, if going by starting power relative to the other chromatics) L, H, G, bronze, copper and black (and should be green, if going by starting power relative to the other chromatics) M, L, G and brass and white S, M, G)(that last is a design decision as much as anything so you want to go with it-it works but seems a bit odd to me is all)

I'll have to comb through this one, but I have to say, after looking at several third party offering lately, I was getting a little concerned that I would be as disinterested in Pathfinder 3rd party as I became with 3.5. A lot of good ideas that just didn't seem to quite click, with a lot of them reinventing the wheel.

Just glancing through this, though, has me kind of excited. It takes Pathfinder design sensibilities, applies them to a classic fantasy trope, and tackles a classic fantasy trope that neither Paizo nor anyone else has really jumped on at this point. This is the kind of thing I was looking for.

I have noticed some things I may not be thrilled with, but at the same time, I'm excited enough to give this a look through and figure out what's up with this class. It definitely has my curiosity piqued.

I do have a minor, but still a little nagging, issue in that the spellcasting progression doesn't match other "partial to 4th level" classes, but it almost matches.

My question is: where would a dragonrider hail from? Cheliax, Taldor, and Andoran are my first thoughts. Perhaps a secret cadre of dragonriders is formed in Galt as part of the revolution. New Molthuni scouts? Kyonin defenders?

I thought of a really bad joke involving Hemea, but I'll refrain . . . ;)

Has anyone playtested this yet? How does it compare to a Summoner's Eidolon? I love the idea but the dragons seem so powerful...

I may try to do some research over the long weekend.

PS: I love the Archon - it can't be said enough.

I do have a minor, but still a little nagging, issue in that the spellcasting progression doesn't match other "partial to 4th level" classes, but it almost matches.

The reason it does not match, btw, is that other "hybrid" casters (paladin and ranger) are preparation casters. The dragonrider is a spontaneous caster. My design goal was to emulate the difference between a wizard's casting and a sorcerers, but for people who are only hybrid casters.

Which may not help your nagging issue, but it's what I can do. :D

No harm would come of switching a dragonrider to the paladin/ranger chart, as long as they also became preparation-in-advance spellcasters at the same time.

KnightErrantJR wrote:

I do have a minor, but still a little nagging, issue in that the spellcasting progression doesn't match other "partial to 4th level" classes, but it almost matches.

The reason it does not match, btw, is that other "hybrid" casters (paladin and ranger) are preparation casters. The dragonrider is a spontaneous caster. My design goal was to emulate the difference between a wizard's casting and a sorcerers, but for people who are only hybrid casters.

Which may not help your nagging issue, but it's what I can do. :D

No harm would come of switching a dragonrider to the paladin/ranger chart, as long as they also became preparation-in-advance spellcasters at the same time.

That's a good point. I had forgotten that while we have "mirror" progressions for prepared and spontaneous full casters, and even 3/4 casters, we don't really have a spontaneous "half" caster. Thanks for the elucidation!

My question is: where would a dragonrider hail from? Cheliax, Taldor, and Andoran are my first thoughts. Perhaps a secret cadre of dragonriders is formed in Galt as part of the revolution. New Molthuni scouts? Kyonin defenders?

Absalom, of course. Everything cool comes from Absalom. (And it has to have some ooomph backing it us in all those sieges).

Okay, I'm biased.

I know at least one fan is putting them in Alkenstar, because she doesn't like the idea of a technological state. So all firearms are replaced with dragons, and the rare firearms being sold or found elsewhere become rare dragon eggs of riding species of dragons.

You could spread them around to maintain a balance of power. Perhaps red dragonriders come from Cheliax, Silver from Andoran, Blue from Taldor...

If I start a new campaign set in Golarion, I'd likely pick one or two, such as Irrisen and the Lands of the Linnorm Kings, and just say they exist elsewhere as rare exceptions.

I've just noticed that there's a typo in the level progression chart. It has Summon steed/1 for both 4th AND 7th levels.

I'm guessing that the 4th level summon is a typo. If so, what is the ability that should go there?

I've just noticed that there's a typo in the level progression chart. It has Summon steed/1 for both 4th AND 7th levels.

The summon ability shouyld first appear at 4th level, and go up by 1 each time it appears.

Denim N Leather wrote:

I've just noticed that there's a typo in the level progression chart. It has Summon steed/1 for both 4th AND 7th levels.

The summon ability shouyld first appear at 4th level, and go up by 1 each time it appears.

Thanks for the clarification!

There is a small typo in the text for the Summon ability also, as it states that the summon ability starts at 7th level ("A dragonrider can use
this ability once per day at 7th level").

Hehe, well the player in my group that has traditionally always played a barbarian had the exact response I expected when I showed him the dragonrider class -- his eyes glowed with immediate avarice and lust!

So, I shall expect a dragonrider in my next campaign! (Players are rolling new characters now)

There is a small typo in the text for the Summon ability also, as it states that the summon ability starts at 7th level ("A dragonrider can use

this ability once per day at 7th level").

Yep, I found it when I looked up your question. All my fault. We'll get an updated version out, I just didn't want to make you wait for an answer. :D

Well, one of my players rolled up a 6th level Dragonrider for my next campaign (inspired by the new Alchemist class) ...

I had originally planned on running "Flight of the Red Raven" as an introductory adventure (even though it's a level 4 mod) so that everyone can get acclimated to their new characters. However, adding a dragonrider to the party kills that idea for spoiler reasons I won't go into.

Having gone through character creation I can now say, BRAVO! Dragonrider is a really well-balanced class.

Really looking forward to seeing how this class performs under fire.

The hardest part for us was the nerfing of the dragons abilities, which of course is a must..it was just hard for a few of my players to wrap their mind around the soul-melding alter the dragons to such a degree.
Of course I couldn't come up with a better way to do it, or a better way to explain it =-)

One of my players keeps reading it and getting a rather disturbing smile on her face, so I think we will be playtesting a 'rider soon...

Awesome product but the sample 8th level copper dragon mount advancement gets water breathing and wave mastery, the gold at the same point gets uncanny dodge, and the silver at the same point gets incinerate. I may have an outdated version but these abilities seem to be curiously off. If there was an update that changed this never mind but I thought I would point this out.

My full review, for the curious:

$2 for a base class is an interesting cost. On one hand, you're not quite sure what you're going to get - especially from an unofficial source. On the other, you gain the ability to pick-and-choose what you like and don't like from a list of published classes. The idea behind micropayments has been kicked around for a while, and I understand a lot of people grumble at the idea. Personally, I don't feel I'm being nickeled and dimed to death - though SGG may consider doing a "package" of these classes to offer all of them at a discount (if someone would like to purchase them all).

That being said, here's my review of the actual product.

I'm a dragon fan. A big one. I play D&D because dragons exist. I judge a product based on how they treat dragons. (Hint: I hate 4th ed. Try and guess why!). A few times over my many years of play, I've attempted to play a dragon rider - heck, I once even played the strider (I refused to be called a 'steed'). A few prestige classes exist on this. They're all pretty bad - some treat the poor dragon like a flying horse. Here's a hint: if you ever have to 'spur' a dragon, you're going to get bitten. Painfully. I tried doing the Paladin + dragon companion option. This worked out alright, except my little gold wyrmling ran into issues when it was time for him to move up an age category, and was no longer safe to deal with the CR 18+ threats we were facing. I've been interested in how Pathfinder might tackle this, as it takes into the account that HD compared to higher levels become a poor indicator of power level. Super Genius Games dives right in with a base class.

Oh, let me get this out of the way: the art isn't top notch. While the artists used in the book clearly have talent, it is really not expressed in this book. However, not liking the art is a poor reason to knock a star off a work, so I'm going to just ignore it.

Pathfinder has really moved away from prestige classing and onto the idea of new base classes. While WotC's attempts at new base classes drifted from "oh lord, why would anyone play this" to "oh lord, why wouldn't anyone play this." Pathfinder, however, complete rewrote the rules on base classing, and really tempts a player to stick with a single class throughout his (hopefully long, unless you're evil) career. The advantage of this is obvious: With 20 levels to play around with, you have full control over what you'd like accomplish.

The dragonrider, then, is very well accomplished. Compared to other base classes, the class seems a little sparse - you gain a few cool abilities, but none that compare to "I am awesome with weapons" or "I have the bloodline of a demon." Simply a lot of abilities, coupled with a good attack bonus and good saves. And some minor spellcasting. Actually, the spellcasting is one thing I'd modify - the spell list is simply the standard arcane list. Dragonriders do not get their own 1st-4th spell list. This is good if you don't like to poke through existing books and add new spells to lists. This is bad in the sense that 1st-4th level arcane spell lists don't often contain enough oomph to really aid a pair rider and strider. While I'm not expecting a 3rd level meteor swarm (and if you ever do, shame on you), it would be nice to see some of the random dragon spells of 5th or 6th level brought down to a castable range for this class. Still, SGG only has the Pathfinder book to work with, and really can't start pointing to the Spellnomicon for its lists.

The big "oomph" for the class comes from the dragon itself. SGG does a really nice job of explaining why any dragon would be willing to undergo this process (and give up some of its own power in doing so). They also solve some of the issues normal dragon riders and striders have (namely, what happens in 4 years when it is time for a new size category). The only serious problem I have throughout the entire book is the 'focus' requirement. In order to justify why someone would choose a white dragon over a red, the idea of a mental focus was created - the dragon "thinks" so fast that it often has to wait for its rider. The rider can focus with the dragon to allow the dragon to act normally. This action is dependent on character level and dragon type. Full-round, standard, move, or free. I irked when I first saw this, as the explanation is iffy, and the reasoning isn't really given - sure a dragon is much more powerful than a warhorse, but it is the character's "thing." Imagine a fighter having to focus before swinging his sword. Dragonriders, as a class, don't have many abilities - the dragon *is* their cool thing. Then what really got me is the fact that you have to do this *every* round you want your dragon to act. Sure, this is no biggie if you have a free action dragon, but a first level silver or gold rider basically has to decide if he wants to act, or if his dragon gets to act. Even if separated - my dreams of a pincer attack with my giant golden companion are dashed. I mean, if this was a once-per-encounter action, I'd be satisfied. I can deal with having to link with my bud as combat starts. But every round? Yeesh...

Still, that's an easy fix for a GM. But if you're the player and you want to approach your GM with this? Good luck.

Aside from the two issues I mentioned, I would have liked to have seen some unique feats for the class. Or just some new feats the class can take advantage of. Regardless, well worth the money. I look forward to SGG's stuff in the future. And maybe a fix for the issues that bugged me :)

I've noticed that the BAB progression for this class does not follow the progression stated in the core rules, namely:

When a creature’s base attack bonus reaches +6, +11, or +16, he receives an additional attack in combat

when he takes a full-attack action

I'm assuming this is just an oversight, but if not, can you explain why?

I've noticed that the BAB progression for this class does not follow the progression stated in the core rules, namely:

Pathfinder Core Rules, page 11 wrote:

When a creature’s base attack bonus reaches +6, +11, or +16, he receives an additional attack in combat

when he takes a full-attack action

I'm assuming this is just an oversight, but if not, can you explain why?

While we don't list the additional attacks, the class gets them. They are part of the core rules so they don't HAVE to be listed separately (just as they aren't for PrC, since you never know exactly what BAB a character taking the classbegins ith). We were experimenting with layout, and pretty clearly won't be using this as standard.

ok, the DM of the campaign I'm playing in bought this and I love the idea. I was wondering though while looking through the description of the different dragons why the fly speeds are so low. as far as I remember from the Bestiary the dragons flight wasn't magical or even supernatural so was the speed nerfed for a reason or was it a Typo? for instance someone starting with a black will be flying at 40', at 8th they will be flying at 50'and at 16th they will be flying at a wopping 60' compared to the bestiary listing of a medium black sailing around at 200'. Kind of a big difference. Other than that I really liked how things were put together with this class and look forward to testing this in the current campaign I'm playing by multi-classing into it.

I was wondering though while looking through the description of the different dragons why the fly speeds are so low.

The listed speeds are intentional, and were given for reasons of balance. A 200 ft. move rate may well break more scenarios than the fact the class already gives 1st level characters the power of flight. As for the power of dragons to fly being totally non-magical, that's a per-campaign decision. While their flight is Extraordinary rather than Supernatural or Spell-Like, it's a kind of Extraordinary physics can't manage without help. The bond between dragonrider and steed clearly uses some of that beyond-mundane Extraordinary power.

Owen K.C. Stephens
Super Genius Games

Am I the only one to come across the fact that a large chunk of information is just missing from the description?

-Of all the abilities listed under the dragon steeds special abilities section, the only ones shown on the progression chart are Share Spells, Evasion, and Ability Score Increase. None of the other special abilities have indicated levels, so there isn't a way to know when those abilities are supposed to come into play.
-There's also the inconsistency with the description of the Dragonrider's spells and the Spell's Known chart, specifically the lack of 0-level spells on the chart.

Anybody else run into this problem, or was this just a side effect of the .pdf being personalized for me?

Am I the only one to come across the fact that a large chunk of information is just missing from the description?

-Of all the abilities listed under the dragon steeds special abilities section, the only ones shown on the progression chart are Share Spells, Evasion, and Ability Score Increase. None of the other special abilities have indicated levels, so there isn't a way to know when those abilities are supposed to come into play.
-There's also the inconsistency with the description of the Dragonrider's spells and the Spell's Known chart, specifically the lack of 0-level spells on the chart.

Anybody else run into this problem, or was this just a side effect of the .pdf being personalized for me?

Yeah, this still needs some polishing.

Use the Animal Companion progression chart for the dragon stuff (Although still, gods know why they get multiattack as late as 9th level). The Spell thing is kind of a hack job, I didn't even know it said they got 0th level spells before you pointed it out. I would just assume they don't, since the spell entry is copied from the wizard, and a wizard this ain't.

Aside from that, I do notice that for the main attraction the dragons are a bit weak. They get no size bonus to STR and CON for increasing in size, which despite what some might say about the entry int he back of the bestiary you definitely still have to point out.

I like the concept for this class enough that I've incorporated them into my setting, just my current PCs don't know where. They're kind of a mix between the two examples, being both elite cavalry and knight-errant depending on the situation and the rider/dragon's disposition, and some dragons use the mind-linking ability to exert their control over the rider, often using them to manipulate important figures in the political world. This mind-control business is only rumored and not actually provable (since if the rider is asked while either is still alive, he's going to reply "no" either way). Dragon Riders actually have made the colors mostly forgo their former genetic pre-orientations, to the point where a gold dragon rider tried to assassinate the sorcerer king some time back. Despite all the controversy, Dragon knights serve as a valuable asset to the military and to the noble houses, so they're here to stay!

I also thought, while I was reading, that it would be interesting if it was possible for the dragon and rider to act entirely independently, even if it came down to handing the sheet for the dragon to the GM and saying, "Here, make this act like a dragon would," and then the rider acting separately, more like a druid/companion-style relationship.

And just to nitpick (since I'm a bit of a nazi for this one), can anybody say typos?

Hey, OWC. Want an intern to be the proverbial red pen for spelling, grammatical correctness, and internal logic (not desperately plugging for a job or anything)? I'd be happy to do it for minimal to no pay. ;)

Why are the dragons so week? They dont even get wing/tail attacks.

Why are the dragons so week? They dont even get wing/tail attacks.

It's explained in the fluff--they give up a substantial amount of their power in exchange for getting size categories quicker (and ultimately outliving their rider and getting their powers back).

Hey, one of my players made an Antipaladin/Dragon rider and ants to know if it would be possible to somehow make his dragon steed become undead.

I figured maybe replacing the 8th lvl advancement with the undead qualities might be the easiest way, but wanted to pick your brain regarding this first.

I was wonder if someone could clarify how the focus works. Do you have to spend the required action every round? once per combat? or maybe once per day when the dragon rider wakes up? It does say!

I was wonder if someone could clarify how the focus works. Do you have to spend the required action every round? once per combat? or maybe once per day when the dragon rider wakes up? It does say!

The detail you are looking for is on page 8.

"For the dragon to take any other action, the dragonrider must establish
a mystic focus. Each dragon steed lists the kind of action required each round for a dragonrider to establish this focus, and focus lasts until the beginning of the dragonrider’s next turn."

So focus is required every turn you want the dragon to do more than take a move action.

Hey, one of my players made an Antipaladin/Dragon rider and ants to know if it would be possible to somehow make his dragon steed become undead.

I figured maybe replacing the 8th lvl advancement with the undead qualities might be the easiest way, but wanted to pick your brain regarding this first.

Myself? I'd just have him burn a feat, or give it as an option for the antipaladin's fiendish boon. I *think* you're actually hurting the dragonrider a bit too much if you replace his 8th level advancement, though I haven't run the numbers.

Thanks for the response, I think I'll let him take it as a feat.

So I was just reading this today...I probably don't have the most recent version of the print, but I'm left with a couple of questions for the folks at SGG concerning what they had in mind.

Concerning the increase in dragon sizes as the character levels up:
Increase in size doesn't mention the effects of increase in size which normally affect Str, Con, Dex, AC/Attack, Natural Armor, CMB/CMD, Fly skill, Stealth skill. Was it intended that the dragons should get those bonuses/penalties when you play tested for balance? I assume that you didn't think so because of the Str/Dex/Int/Cha modifiers on the chart, but that only covers those attributes and not all the other facets that size affects.

What do you think of a feat that reduces the focus time by 1 step? It seems reasonable to me but I've not play tested it yet.

As a side note...I intend to change the free action focus to swift action, but the feat reducing that would drop swift action to free action.

Edit: Also wanted to ask your opinion on the Multi-class with Cavalier compared to the others.

So I was just reading this today...I probably don't have the most recent version of the print, but I'm left with a couple of questions for the folks at SGG concerning what they had in mind.

Always happy to go over our materials!

Concerning the increase in dragon sizes as the character levels up:

As originally written, our plan was to only apply those changes listed in the chart. However, in the year (!) since it's release, I've done enough additional playtesting, and gotten enough feedback from players who bought the PDF and use it in other people's games, to be convinced that was a mistake.

Aty this point, I recommend you ignore the Dex mods listed on the chart, keep the other ability mods, and apply the mods for changing size.

I'm working on an update for this class, which will be automatically available to anyone who bought the old version.

What do you think of a feat that reduces the focus time by 1 step? It seems reasonable to me but I've not play tested it yet.

I'd recommend extreme caution. while that makes things more fun for the player of the dragon rider, it's also a major balance question. If you do it, I strongly recommend it only work X number of times per day. that allows the dragon rider to get more action when he needs it, without constantly having access to his actions and a big, powerful dragon's.

As a side note...I intend to change the free action focus to swift action, but the feat reducing that would drop swift action to free action.

That does make sense.

Edit: Also wanted to ask your opinion on the Multi-class with Cavalier compared to the others.

I certainly think a cavalier giving up the mount ability should gain the same dragon level bonus as a druid giving up nature's bond.

Thanks so much for the feedback. On my read through, I figured that letting the dragon have the normal size bonuses wouldn't be unbalancing, but it's nice to hear from someone who's play tested it and gotten feedback since so I don't have to balance it on my own.

You're probably right about the feat on further consideration. I'll probably go with 2/day to start with. What do you think of allowing it to be taken multiple times?

In case you're curious, I'm running Kingmaker at the moment and have 4 characters (at least) that'll probably dip into this class the second I decide to allow it (Cavalier, Paladin, Wizard, and an Inquisitor with an animal companion.) The party level is 11th at the moment so I'll be interesting, but I want to dot my i's and cross my t's before I give the go ahead. I read it because they've been trying to get me to let them them take golden eagles and rocs (present on the map) as well as attempting to purchase pegasi as mounts. I think letting them dip into this class will make them all happy and be an interesting change...or horrifying...we'll see.

I for one am looking forward to an update on the Dragonrider =D especially since I just started playing one. But it will be awesome to have an updated version. I love the class and the potential it has for good roleplay without being horrifically over powered. I look forward to what your update holds!

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned somewhere, but it seems like in some cases you could be a Medium character riding a Medium dragon.

I was under the impression that a rider had to have a mount at least one size larger than himself to be able to ride on it. Is that not the case here?

I'm not sure how it is worded in the Dragonrider PDF but basically the dragon is able to bear their rider even if they are the same size category. This may go against some of the normal ruling but this is a change that is strictly for the dragonrider and his bonded dragon only from what I understand. Outside this class it would be the normal small character -> medium mount, medium character -> large mount.

But if the dragons strength isn't high enough for him to bear his rider (and their) gear this won't work of course. Just like any normal ruling.

Just so I avoid getting in trouble here~ may I suggest buying the PDF if you want to understand more about the class. I enjoy the promise the class holds and while it may not appeal to some it still holds a ton of potential.

At what level does the Dragonrider's dragon steed gain the following abilities?

Link (Ex)
Devotion (Ex)
Multiattack
Improved Evasion (Ex)

At what level does the Dragonrider's dragon steed gain the following abilities?

The revised version of this PDF should be out really soon, which clarifies those questions and does some other neat stuff (which is why it's taking so long). To answer your specific questions:

Link (Ex), 1st level
Devotion (Ex), 6th level
Multiattack, 11th level
Improved Evasion (Ex), 16th level

So im loving this class but for the dragon steeds it says as feats go that they can't take armor proficiency shield proficiency and weapon proficiency feats but in the list of feats they can choose from the armor proficiency feats are all listed as ones they can take, now idk bout any of you but i would love an armored dragon! I was just wondering which is it.... armor or no armor?

The revised Genius Guide to the Dragonrider PDF is out now. It has more than a year's worth of clarifications, errata, and development based on hundreds of comments from customers. Also, it now includes Hero Lab files, allowing customers to make dragonriders and their dragon steeds with the Hero Lab character builder!

All this as a free update, of course, to all our great fans who already bought the original PDF, and at no increased cost to new customers who want to check it out!

The revised Genius Guide to the Dragonrider PDF is out now. It has more than a year's worth of clarifications, errata, and development based on hundreds of comments from customers. Also, it now includes Hero Lab files, allowing customers to make dragonriders and their dragon steeds with the Hero Lab character builder!

All this as a free update, of course, to all our great fans who already bought the original PDF, and at no increased cost to new customers who want to check it out!

Wow, that is REALLY cool!

I wonder if the dragon would balance well as a replacement companion for the Dragon Shaman druid archetype. As far as I'm concerned I want dragon flavor, not giant lizard. The only question is will it be balanced?