I actually wanted to ask Owen a question, as he is so very forthcoming with info on his products.

That's what I'm here for!

(We love you Owen!)

Awwwwwwww.

Do you think it would be acceptable to allow a dragon steed as a mount choice for the Cavalier, Paladin, Druid, Ranger, Cleric (with animal domain's bonded mount power), or Oracle (With a nature oracle's bonded mount revelation) ?

Yes... and no.

I think it can be perfectly balanced (although I'd impose at least one more level of penalty. Part of the reason I gave it as an option for multiclass dragonriders is because otherwise you end up with two mounts, neither up to par. But if you haven't multiclasses, then it's just a power up to a character's mount, and you've got to be careful with those.

Then, no, as in "no I don't plan to make it an official SGG rule." I can see lots of ways to make a balanced character with such a rule -- but there may also be lots of ways to make unbalanced characters. I've been looking at something like this for the next Feats of Multiclassing book (which would at least charge a feat-cost to upgrade to a dragon steed), but I'm not yet satisfied there aren't synergies I haven't found yet.

Also, i thought that Bronze dragons were suppose to be more powerful then Copper dragons, so then why do the coppers get a D6 of acid for there breath weapon while us fans of the Bronze are stuck to a measly D4 of Lightning? As Lightning is a more common resist then acid this feels like a short change. :(

That's a fair question, and I don't currently see a good reason. I'll look through my design documents and see if I'm missing something.

Also like a majority of people here i'd be a fan of revising the focus ability to something that is done once per encounter,or it lasts a number of rounds equal to your character level or 1/2 your character level.

But I tend to play with a group of high powered gamers, so that just maybe something i have to work out with the Dm's.

Sorry, while a modest adjustment was made to focus times in the revised version, they are going to remain a per-round requirement. I've seen too many overpowered playtest builds in the low-to-mid level ranges without it.

Elias Darrowphayne wrote:

Also like a majority of people here i'd be a fan of revising the focus ability to something that is done once per encounter,or it lasts a number of rounds equal to your character level or 1/2 your character level.

But I tend to play with a group of high powered gamers, so that just maybe something i have to work out with the Dm's.

Sorry, while a modest adjustment was made to focus times in the revised version, they are going to remain a per-round requirement. I've seen too many overpowered playtest builds in the low-to-mid level ranges without it.

Fair enough, thank you for the feedback. :)

Elias Darrowphayne wrote:

I actually wanted to ask Owen a question, as he is so very forthcoming with info on his products.

That's what I'm here for!

Elias Darrowphayne wrote:

(We love you Owen!)

Awwwwwwww.

Elias Darrowphayne wrote:

Do you think it would be acceptable to allow a dragon steed as a mount choice for the Cavalier, Paladin, Druid, Ranger, Cleric (with animal domain's bonded mount power), or Oracle (With a nature oracle's bonded mount revelation) ?

Yes... and no.

I think it can be perfectly balanced (although I'd impose at least one more level of penalty. Part of the reason I gave it as an option for multiclass dragonriders is because otherwise you end up with two mounts, neither up to par. But if you haven't multiclasses, then it's just a power up to a character's mount, and you've got to be careful with those.

Then, no, as in "no I don't plan to make it an official SGG rule." I can see lots of ways to make a balanced character with such a rule -- but there may also be lots of ways to make unbalanced characters. I've been looking at something like this for the next Feats of Multiclassing book (which would at least charge a feat-cost to upgrade to a dragon steed), but I'm not yet satisfied there aren't synergies I haven't found yet.

Elias Darrowphayne wrote:

Also, i thought that Bronze dragons were suppose to be more powerful then Copper dragons, so then why do the coppers get a D6 of acid for there breath weapon while us fans of the Bronze are stuck to a measly D4 of Lightning? As Lightning is a more common resist then acid this feels like a short change. :(

That's a fair question, and I don't currently see a good reason. I'll look through my design documents and see if I'm missing something.

I can understand your reasoning for wanting to put at least another level cost on the dragon mount options. Now what would be fairer do you think? Putting it at a -3 level as a Druid/Cavalier choice or Making it at a -2 but costing a feat or Both?

Also thank you for looking through your notes on the bronze dragon questions as it has always been my favorite of the types.

Also i think Pathfinder SRD may have gotten something wrong because for some reason the bronze and blue dragon's 16th level stat adjustments are just a -2 dex as every other Dragon gets the normal adjustments for increasing size...

Also do you mind if I ask why it seems like some dragons got access to the breeds seconday breath weapon at 16 and others didnt? It seems all the metallics got access to it while at 16 the bronze's big thing is it can deal 1D6 lightning in a 10ft aura where most times it will be either easily reisited or ignored because monsters have so much hp. Seems like bronze is weaker then copper even though they are 1 CR higher then copper. Seems odd.

Also i think Pathfinder SRD may have gotten something wrong because for some reason the bronze and blue dragon's 16th level stat adjustments are just a -2 dex as every other Dragon gets the normal adjustments for increasing size...

Huh. Again, I'll see if I can find time to look into it.

Also do you mind if I ask why it seems like some dragons got access to the breeds seconday breath weapon at 16 and others didnt? It seems all the metallics got access to it while at 16 the bronze's big thing is it can deal 1D6 lightning in a 10ft aura where most times it will be either easily reisited or ignored because monsters have so much hp.

A combination of game balance and wanting different flavors of options. I did a lot of playtesting on this, and these are the results that made the most players the most happy most of the time, without crushing standard encounters.

And the d6 aura can be pretty effective. It can be maintained without an and action round after round, while the special breath weapons count as 2 of the dragon's limited number of breaths per day. The longer a fight runs, the more damage the aura adds up to.

Elias Darrowphayne wrote:

Also i think Pathfinder SRD may have gotten something wrong because for some reason the bronze and blue dragon's 16th level stat adjustments are just a -2 dex as every other Dragon gets the normal adjustments for increasing size...

Huh. Again, I'll see if I can find time to look into it.

Don't bother Owen. This is a typo on D20PFSRD.com. I've gone and fixed it.

Thank you Owen and Caedwyr. :)

I'll keep checking this thread for when you've an answer to my other questions.

Its so nice having devs who actually check these things. Makes me want to keep getting SGG Items, I've remarked this to a number of gaming friends and they said the same thing. :D

Sorry to restate this, kinda forgot about it myself, but it came up while planning a secondary character for our current game.

But do you think it would be fair for a Cavalier/Druid/Paladin/Oracle/Cleric/Inquisitor, all who have access to an animal companion to be able to pick a dragon mount instead with the imposed restrictions of:
-4 effective Druid/Dragonrider level for determining his Dragon's abilities.
Requiring a Feat:

Dragon Bond:
You are able to give up the normal bond that your class forms with a creature or object in order to form a long lasting relationship with a True Dragon.
Prereqs: Cha 13, Divine Bond, Animal Domain (animal companion granted power), Animal Companion, Mount, Arcane Bond, or Hunter's Bond.
Benefit: You can summon a Dragon to serve as a bonded mount and companion. This bonded dragon uses your level in the class that you have the apropriate bond -4, on top of any penalties you might have to your level for that bond as your dragon rider level for determining the abilities of your bonded Dragon. You must be able to have at least a effective dragonrider level of 1 in order to select this feat.

Think that is fair? It isn't as good for say an inquisitor/cleric/ranger as you have to be level 8 before you select the feat but if you can always take other feats to help offset this is your dm allows it. (I.e. Boon Companion.)

Was thinking of getting it for a cavalier or a sorcerer. I think it would be a lot of fun.

I'd love to hear your opinions.

I can't help but think there's a typo in the multi-classing part. According to the book, a dragon rider can go dragonrider 1 / Wizard 19 and by giving up his familiar, keep his dragon companion up to snuff (well, character level - 2 snuff). This is opposed to the ranger who gives up his animal companion and only gets his dragon companion at half character level. Were these reversed on accident? Also, how would eldritch heritage (to get arcane bloodline to get a familiar to give up for the dragon) work?

I have a question about the dragon mounts- apparently, at 11th level, the mounts get the multiattack feat, which is completely useless unless one of the following is true-

Either they get wing/tail attacks appropriate for their size, or-

The normal formula for primary natural weapons is not followed, and breath and/or claw attacks are considered secondary attacks for this purpose, in which case, the attacks which are considered secondary would take a -5 penalty (-2 with the multiattack feat)

Any ideas about this?

Either that, or it's designed to enable your dragon mount to use simple/martial/exotic weapons ( O_o ) alongside its natural weapons.

According to the druid entry for Multi attack, it says that if the creature doesn't have the right amount of attacks, it gets another use of one of it's existing attacks at a -5, or something like that.

I have a question about the dragon mounts- apparently, at 11th level, the mounts get the multiattack feat, which is completely useless unless one of the following is true-

Either they get wing/tail attacks appropriate for their size, or-

The normal formula for primary natural weapons is not followed, and breath and/or claw attacks are considered secondary attacks for this purpose, in which case, the attacks which are considered secondary would take a -5 penalty (-2 with the multiattack feat)

Any ideas about this?

The feat is useless to the dragon steeds as written. I had expected The Genius Guide to Dracomancers, which would clear up why it might be a useful bonus feat (options for dragon steeds to gain wing/tail/gore attacks), to be out by now.

It's fine to ignore it, the steeds are balanced as-is.

I can't help but think there's a typo in the multi-classing part. According to the book, a dragon rider can go dragonrider 1 / Wizard 19 and by giving up his familiar, keep his dragon companion up to snuff (well, character level - 2 snuff). This is opposed to the ranger who gives up his animal companion and only gets his dragon companion at half character level. Were these reversed on accident?

No, the rules are correct as written, for two reasons. First, a wizard gains his bond at 1st level, and it directly boosts his own abilities (either granting an extra unprepared spell per day, or allowing the delivery of spells through a familiar). The ranger does not gain a bond until 4th level, and his bond options don't directly enhance his own abilities (though they can give him synergies with a companion or allies). Additionally, there is significantly more multiclass synergy between rangers and dragonriders (both full attack bonus classes) than between wizards and dragonriders. This formula was borne out by playtesting.

Also, how would eldritch heritage (to get arcane bloodline to get a familiar to give up for the dragon) work?

The multiclass rules are class-specific, so taking eldritch heritage to gain a familiar as a class other than sorcerer/wizard does not give you any bonus to give it up as a multiclass dragonrider.

Dranon wrote:

I have a question about the dragon mounts- apparently, at 11th level, the mounts get the multiattack feat, which is completely useless unless one of the following is true-

Either they get wing/tail attacks appropriate for their size, or-

The normal formula for primary natural weapons is not followed, and breath and/or claw attacks are considered secondary attacks for this purpose, in which case, the attacks which are considered secondary would take a -5 penalty (-2 with the multiattack feat)

Any ideas about this?

The feat is useless to the dragon steeds as written. I had expected The Genius Guide to Dracomancers, which would clear up why it might be a useful bonus feat (options for dragon steeds to gain wing/tail/gore attacks), to be out by now.

It's fine to ignore it, the steeds are balanced as-is.

Ah hah, thank you very much for clarifying that for me, I was rereading the entire class trying to see if I had missed something.

Thanks for the response! Its good to be able to see into your mind a bit.

Thanks for the response! Its good to be able to see into your mind a bit.

You are very welcome, and I admit one of the things I lvoe about doing Pathfinder material with SGG, is that I have these opportunities to discuss my work.

It's like the game-designer version of getting to talk about our characters. :)

Hello Owen,

Would you allow the Boon Companion feat from Seekers of Secrets to work for the Bonded Dragon Steed ability?

Thanks,
Justin

Hello Owen,

Would you allow the Boon Companion feat from Seekers of Secrets to work for the Bonded Dragon Steed ability?

RAW, it absolutely does not apply.

My-table-houserules, it should be fine.

This was asked before, but I see it was missed. How's Genius Guide to the Dracomancer coming along?

Justin Sluder wrote:

Hello Owen,

Would you allow the Boon Companion feat from Seekers of Secrets to work for the Bonded Dragon Steed ability?

RAW, it absolutely does not apply.

My-table-houserules, it should be fine.

This is exactly the answer I expected. Thanks! :D

This was asked before, but I see it was missed. How's Genius Guide to the Dracomancer coming along?

Last I heard, it was waiting for some polish following playtesting, and then OMGBUSY happened.

Last I heard, it was waiting for some polish following playtesting, and then OMGBUSY happened.

That about sums it up!

Cheapy wrote:

Last I heard, it was waiting for some polish following playtesting, and then OMGBUSY happened.

That about sums it up!

That's alright. Just so long as we know.

Any thoughts on the new dragons in pathfinder bestiary 3 for use as steeds? I haven't seen anything on the boards about them (but my search fu isn't the best), official or not.

I hope to include rules for them in the still-needs-a-major-revision-and-then-more-playtesting Genius Guide to the Dracomancer.

Dracomancer draconic companions and dragonrider steeds are interchangeable.

I hope to include rules for them in the still-needs-a-major-revision-and-then-more-playtesting Genius Guide to the Dracomancer.

Dracomancer draconic companions and dragonrider steeds are interchangeable.

Owen, this is great. I expected "here is how you can do it yourself" or "maybe, in a bulletpoint." Now I have even more to look forward to!

I was looking at the steeds and noticed that the Silver Dragon base STR stat was not similar to the other large dragons such as Gold and Red. It is more in line with the Green dragons starting stat. My question is one about design, what was the determining factor used to set the starting stats of the breeds?

It is a big question, I was just wondering because based on size I'd think the STR stat would be different to account for the large size.