How did this not make the front page yet? For anyone who has been looking to find these books (long out of print...), here's a perfect opportunity.

The Iron Kingdoms is a phenomenal resource for anyone looking to inject a little steampunk into their campaigns, or start a full-metal fantasy campaign using the 3.5 rules.

This book is actually almost rules-free and a great starting point for anyone who needs a new campaign. The Player's Guide is essential as well and both of these books go for well over $100 on eBay.

Great job guys!

$100? Dang. Too bad I'm keepin' MINE ^_^

I wonder if someone found a box of these in the back of the warehouse during the move :)

Nope, this is the NEW PDf.

Nobody beats the Iron Kingdoms for ... fluff, but you can't really call it "fluff" in the Iron Kingdoms, so I'll just say ... rich and detailed backstory.

Nobody beats the Iron Kingdoms for ... fluff, but you can't really call it "fluff" in the Iron Kingdoms, so I'll just say ... rich and detailed backstory.

Steel wool maybe?

I can't wait to plug this into Alkenstar and see what fun happens!

Is it my imagination or are these horribly expensive for pdfs?

Is it my imagination or are these horribly expensive for pdfs?

They're the same price as the dead tree books' list prices.

That's my point - you get a book and they have overheads and such with that. With a pdf, they just have a pdf on a server and distribution is very cheap. Maybe I don't understand the economics of it but it seems expensive given that if I want a hard copy I'll have to print it out at my expense. It hasn't stopped me ordering some of them since I understand they are very high quality products. But with a pdf-only offering it just seems a bit of a gouge. After all, I get the pdf free with the Pathfinder subscription so the marginal cost of a pdf can't be that much. I expect to pay something but not the full cost of a physical book. I appreciate this is less Paizo's issue than the actual publisher's.

Iron Kingdoms stuff has always been expensive - top quality and worth it, but expensive. And I think the books are out of print, so this may be the only way to get them now. Still, you're right; I have the books and probably won't buy the pdf's at this price.

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:

Is it my imagination or are these horribly expensive for pdfs?

They're the same price as the dead tree books' list prices.

Huh. I didn't realize it was the same price. For some reason I thought I paid more for these books. Iron Kingdoms was always a little expensive but always worth it.

Either way, the pdf is pricey. I admit I wouldn't buy it at this price as I have the books. But I am a huge fan and I think it might be worth it if you don't already own the books. I am biased though and shouldn't be taken as a good benchmark.

I can definitely understand the reluctance due to the price. I can't say I would be confident in suggesting someone who has no experience with the setting to buy these pdfs. Iron Kingdoms has a very specific feel that you may or may not love. I would hate to see someone spend the money and feel like it was wasted.

I wrote my review believing the price was lower than the original price. I may need to edit that.

I'm confused. Is this new material, or combination of old stuff? And which stuff?

I'm pretty sure these are more than 30 bucks for the print version. I think they were around $50. Mine are at home, so I can't check.

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:

Is it my imagination or are these horribly expensive for pdfs?

They're the same price as the dead tree books' list prices.

Nope...

Character Guide, World Guide and Monsternomicon II all had an MSRP of $39.99 in print; Privateer priced the PDFs at $29.99.

Five Fingers and the Witchfire Trilogy each had a print MSRP of $34.99; the PDFs are $24.99.

Monsternomicon I had a print MSRP of $29.99; the PDF is $22.99.

Liber Mechanika had a print MSRP of $24.99; the PDF is $19.99.

It's a fairly common practice to price PDFs at about 30% off the print price, and these aren't *that* far out of line with that.

It's a fairly common practice to price PDFs at about 30% off the print price, and these aren't *that* far out of line with that.

Good point. I didn't consider that.

yoda8myhead wrote:

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:

Is it my imagination or are these horribly expensive for pdfs?

They're the same price as the dead tree books' list prices.

Nope...

Character Guide, World Guide and Monsternomicon II all had an MSRP of $39.99 in print; Privateer priced the PDFs at $29.99.

Five Fingers and the Witchfire Trilogy each had a print MSRP of $34.99; the PDFs are $24.99.

Monsternomicon I had a print MSRP of $29.99; the PDF is $22.99.

Liber Mechanika had a print MSRP of $24.99; the PDF is $19.99.

It's a fairly common practice to price PDFs at about 30% off the print price, and these aren't *that* far out of line with that.

I agree its not that far out of line for how PDF's are typically priced, but that is why I typically do not buy PDF's. For me to buy they have to be below 50% of the retail print price. Which is why I typically do not buy even Paizo PDF's, with a few notable exceptions.

Most people aren't foolish enough to be price gouged on PDF's, which I think is the real reason they are failing to take off like so many hoped they would.

Plus, with a book you don't have to supply a $500+ computer or $300 e reader with which to read it, with PDF's you do.

I only hope Paizo's Core Rule PDF has sold so well to non subscribers to convince Paizo to change their over all PDF pricing policy. There are a lot of PDF's I would like to buy that are not part of my subscriptions, but I have not because of the price being higher than I am willing to pay.

I mean most of us know that companies get about 20% of the retail price on their printed books. So to me, to charge 3 to 5 (full price) times that amount is greed. Plus I have seen no market study that proves selling PDF's, at any price, hurts retail sales.

So I think that if publishers ever get "realistic" about PDF prices the market for them will actually take off. I guess they will have to get over their fear and/or greed for that to ever happen, though. I am pretty sure the consumer will never get dumb enough to pay such high prices, in general. There are obviously exceptions since PDF's presumably do sell. Probably to the few people in the market where PDF's are a better option to them rather than print.

Still, I won't be holding my breathe in anticipation for PDF pricing to become "fair", in general. I'll just keep supporting those few companies who do price their PDF's more reasonably with PDF purchases.

The nice thing is offering free PDF's is a good selling point with me, and such free PDF's do account for a large majority of my PDF library.

I mean most of us know that companies get about 20% of the retail price on their printed books.

Wow, that is way low. If we only got 20% of MSRP, we would be out of business in a flash. Heck, my cost of goods tends to be close to 20% of MSRP.

-Lisa

Robert Miller 55 wrote:

I mean most of us know that companies get about 20% of the retail price on their printed books.

Wow, that is way low. If we only got 20% of MSRP, we would be out of business in a flash. Heck, my cost of goods tends to be close to 20% of MSRP.

-Lisa

I think he ment the other way maybe?

80% of MSRP?
RPG Stores only get 20% maybe?

How did this not make the front page yet? For anyone who has been looking to find these books (long out of print...), here's a perfect opportunity.

The Iron Kingdoms is a phenomenal resource for anyone looking to inject a little steampunk into their campaigns, or start a full-metal fantasy campaign using the 3.5 rules.

This book is actually almost rules-free and a great starting point for anyone who needs a new campaign. The Player's Guide is essential as well and both of these books go for well over $100 on eBay.

Great job guys!

I knew I should have picked up that copy of Iron Kingdoms at half-price books, it was only $20.

Lisa Stevens wrote:

Robert Miller 55 wrote:

I mean most of us know that companies get about 20% of the retail price on their printed books.

Wow, that is way low. If we only got 20% of MSRP, we would be out of business in a flash. Heck, my cost of goods tends to be close to 20% of MSRP.

-Lisa

I think he ment the other way maybe?

80% of MSRP?
RPG Stores only get 20% maybe?

No, typically a publisher only gets 20% of the retail on each book they publish. Maybe Lisa means they get closer to 30% of retail? If so that is good, and makes me even happier with Paizo for charging only $10 for their core rule book PDF.

So if you guys made more than $10 off of each PF RPG sold, awesome! Meaning through the distribution channels. Obviously you guys do much better with direct sales from Gen Con and your warehouse. IE you get all of the profit and don't share it with any distributors and retailers and the like.

Yeah, Lisa must be talking about their direct sales rather than what they get with what they sell through distribution.

So I think that if publishers ever get "realistic" about PDF prices the market for them will actually take off. I guess they will have to get over their fear and/or greed for that to ever happen, though. I am pretty sure the consumer will never get dumb enough to pay such high prices, in general. There are obviously exceptions since PDF's presumably do sell. Probably to the few people in the market where PDF's are a better option to them rather than print.

I agree that the prices on these products seem too high to warrant their purchase to me. I'll never understand the logic behind this type of scheme...why charge an outrageous price for a pdf when the supply is effectively unlimited? It costs close to nothing to distribute a pdf...it's not like you have to build the system for distribution, it already exists and will cost you regardless of what products you offer.

My dad always said that fast nickels are better than slow dollars. As a thought experiment, how many of you would buy this product at this price? And what about the others in the line? Now what if the price was half listed? Would that make you more likely to buy it, even if you weren't really convinced it would be useful?

Setting a price point at this level will draw in those who REALLY want the product and maybe have been unsuccessful in obtaining a hardcopy. A few people who are only vaguely interested may sink the money into the purchase. Personally, I will spend up to $15 on a pdf if I think it will be interesting, and if I want to see the company succeed. Getting above that, I want a hardcopy for my money. $30 for a pdf just feels like gouging to me, especially since I know that the supply is unlimited.

I find it interesting how quickly people devalue the work that goes into creating an item such as this, regardless of whether it ends up in print or pdf form. Is the creative work the author and designers went to in developing a kickass world and system of less value if its published electronically? Is it cheaper to buy good artwork if it doesn't end up on paper? Does getting the best editors somehow cost less? Getting the final product printed does obviously add cost, but that is the final "work" that goes into the product. Believe me, I truly like hard copies over electronic versions, and I understand the visceral feel of value by holding bound paper in my hand as opposed to a hard drive. But I don't want companies to skimp on the value of what goes into creating a quality product, just so they can discount a pdf later down the road.

I find it interesting how quickly people devalue the work that goes into creating an item such as this, regardless of whether it ends up in print or pdf form. Is the creative work the author and designers went to in developing a kickass world and system of less value if its published electronically? Is it cheaper to buy good artwork if it doesn't end up on paper? Does getting the best editors somehow cost less? Getting the final product printed does obviously add cost, but that is the final "work" that goes into the product. Believe me, I truly like hard copies over electronic versions, and I understand the visceral feel of value by holding bound paper in my hand as opposed to a hard drive. But I don't want companies to skimp on the value of what goes into creating a quality product, just so they can discount a pdf later down the road.

And while the cost of goods of a print product is obviously higher than a PDF due to the cost of printing, the amount of effort that a publisher puts into a PDF can be measurably greater. After all, we don't have to create and edit bookmarks and hyperlinks and such for the print edition—that's all extra effort taken exclusively for the PDF. In the case of something like the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, several people spent several days creating those hyperlinks.

Perhaps some people are still feeling burned by WotC's full-cost PDFs that didn't seem worth that much.

Perhaps some people are still feeling burned by WotC's full-cost PDFs that didn't seem worth that much.

Most of the time I just waited for the big occasion sales and bought those when there was 20 or 30% off. Saved a good whack of cash that way.

I'm still debating the Iron Kingdoms PDFs at the present price, at least until after the next few months of huge Paizo subscriptions are over with. I'm curious given what's been said about the setting, but not enough to mess up my budget.

And while the cost of goods of a print product is obviously higher than a PDF due to the cost of printing, the amount of effort that a publisher puts into a PDF can be measurably greater. After all, we don't have to create and edit bookmarks and hyperlinks and such for the print edition—that's all extra effort taken exclusively for the PDF. In the case of something like the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, several people spent several days creating those hyperlinks.

What annoys me is paying premium prices for a PDF only to find that the publisher hasn't bothered to add bookmarks. If the file isn't locked I can add them myself, but it's frustrating to buy something that doesn't take advantage of the available features.

The extra effort and attention to detail that you and the other people at Paizo put into their products with things like that is something I greatly appreciate. I've often cursed the locked PDFs of D&D3E stuff from DrivethruRPG because it's hard to locate stuff quickly, but I've never had that complaint with any Paizo product.

Daeglin wrote:

I find it interesting how quickly people devalue the work that goes into creating an item such as this, regardless of whether it ends up in print or pdf form. Is the creative work the author and designers went to in developing a kickass world and system of less value if its published electronically? Is it cheaper to buy good artwork if it doesn't end up on paper? Does getting the best editors somehow cost less? Getting the final product printed does obviously add cost, but that is the final "work" that goes into the product. Believe me, I truly like hard copies over electronic versions, and I understand the visceral feel of value by holding bound paper in my hand as opposed to a hard drive. But I don't want companies to skimp on the value of what goes into creating a quality product, just so they can discount a pdf later down the road.

And while the cost of goods of a print product is obviously higher than a PDF due to the cost of printing, the amount of effort that a publisher puts into a PDF can be measurably greater. After all, we don't have to create and edit bookmarks and hyperlinks and such for the print edition—that's all extra effort taken exclusively for the PDF. In the case of something like the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, several people spent several days creating those hyperlinks.

Yeah, but I seriously doubt those extra hours still equal the thousands you paid to print the books in the first place.

So on one hand, you pay 10,000's of thousands to get your print run done, on the other you spend maybe $6,000 to increase the value of your PDF, still a huge difference in pricing scale. So the PDF, looked at like the separate product it is, is still much cheaper to offer up.

I find it interesting how quickly people devalue the work that goes into creating an item such as this, regardless of whether it ends up in print or pdf form. Is the creative work the author and designers went to in developing a kickass world and system of less value if its published electronically? Is it cheaper to buy good artwork if it doesn't end up on paper? Does getting the best editors somehow cost less? Getting the final product printed does obviously add cost, but that is the final "work" that goes into the product. Believe me, I truly like hard copies over electronic versions, and I understand the visceral feel of value by holding bound paper in my hand as opposed to a hard drive. But I don't want companies to skimp on the value of what goes into creating a quality product, just so they can discount a pdf later down the road.

I take Vic's point. I don't really take this one. I'm not devaluing anything, I want to pay a fair price, which I think is reasonable. Sticking is hyperlinks to an existing pdf is obviously useful but maybe only a few days work. The pricing decision of a pdf, I would suggest, should probably rest on how many you expect to sell - since holding "stock" is effectively free and distribution likewise, all you really have are the up front costs (unlike a hard copy which will need to be purchased, held in a warehouse and then shipped). Therefore, it seems to me, profit margins will trend upwards quickly as you sell more and more units, since all you are doing is paying back the original investment in creating the product with very few costs going forward. I don't really want to second guess (much) Privateer's decision of pricing as, according to Vic, it is fairly par for the course. Nevertheless, I could see a popular pdf product being highly profitable on this basis if it sold lots of units - good for them, not so much for the customer. I don't know what are the economics of holding and shipping a hard copy of a book v distributing a pdf via the internet, since I have never run a business like this, but a 30% discount on the hard copy seems modest. Especially for a product for a defunct edition of D&D.

Having said all that, I've bought four of the pdfs in question.

Aubrey,
The fact that you bought it proves that the pricing was correct, at least as far as you were concerned. You considered it fair enough to purchase it. If you considered it too high, you wouldn't have purchased it.

Yes, but I have a reasonably secure job and don't have to worry about costs like this. Plus, while I have heard good things about this stuff, I had never seen any of it and wanted to take a look. But that doesn't mean I want to pay over the odds if I don't have to. I would have bought every pdf they had going if I was happy with the price but I wasn't (almost $200 for the full monty) and I haven't, so they have still lost (at this point - I haven't read them yet) custom from me. And, it should be pointed out, that so far as I can tell (based on a quick perusal of the World Guide) it contains no hyperlinks.

Yeah, but I seriously doubt those extra hours still equal the thousands you paid to print the books in the first place.

So on one hand, you pay 10,000's of thousands to get your print run done, on the other you spend maybe $6,000 to increase the value of your PDF, still a huge difference in pricing scale. So the PDF, looked at like the separate product it is, is still much cheaper to offer up.

Which is why we offer a 30% discount over the price of the printed book. That pretty much allows us to keep the same margin of profit no matter which format somebody wants to buy.

-Lisa

Robert Miller 55 wrote:

Yeah, but I seriously doubt those extra hours still equal the thousands you paid to print the books in the first place.

So on one hand, you pay 10,000's of thousands to get your print run done, on the other you spend maybe $6,000 to increase the value of your PDF, still a huge difference in pricing scale. So the PDF, looked at like the separate product it is, is still much cheaper to offer up.

Which is why we offer a 30% discount over the price of the printed book. That pretty much allows us to keep the same margin of profit no matter which format somebody wants to buy.

-Lisa

I was about to point out the margins he quoted were almost equal to what the discount is....

But the LIsa is quicker....

Sean

Robert Miller 55 wrote:

Yeah, but I seriously doubt those extra hours still equal the thousands you paid to print the books in the first place.

So on one hand, you pay 10,000's of thousands to get your print run done, on the other you spend maybe $6,000 to increase the value of your PDF, still a huge difference in pricing scale. So the PDF, looked at like the separate product it is, is still much cheaper to offer up.

Which is why we offer a 30% discount over the price of the printed book. That pretty much allows us to keep the same margin of profit no matter which format somebody wants to buy.

-Lisa

So you're saying that "30% reduction" is about the difference between the cost of creating print and the cost of creating PDF?

I take Vic's point. I don't really take this one. I'm not devaluing anything, I want to pay a fair price, which I think is reasonable. Sticking is hyperlinks to an existing pdf is obviously useful but maybe only a few days work. The pricing decision of a pdf, I would suggest, should probably rest on how many you expect to sell - since holding "stock" is effectively free and distribution likewise, all you really have are the up front costs (unlike a hard copy which will need to be purchased, held in a warehouse and then shipped). Therefore, it seems to me, profit margins will trend upwards quickly as you sell more and more units, since all you are doing is paying back the original investment in creating the product with very few costs going forward. I don't really want to second guess (much) Privateer's decision of pricing as, according to Vic, it is fairly par for the course. Nevertheless, I could see a popular pdf product being highly profitable on this basis if it sold lots of units - good for them, not so much for the customer. I don't know what are the economics of holding and shipping a hard copy of a book v distributing a pdf via the internet, since I have never run a business like this, but a 30% discount on the hard copy seems modest. Especially for a product for a defunct edition of D&D.

Having said all that, I've bought four of the pdfs in question.

I would argue that the customer does benefit from a popular pdf being highly profitable, because hopefully the company would continue to produce products of the same quality.*

Perhaps I consider the price differently because, while I know how to go about getting a product printed and bound, I lack the creative spark to come up with something good to go in it :)

*In this instance, though, I don't think the sales of this particular product is likely to change Privateer Press's focus - I suspect they've left RPG's for good.

Having said all that, I've bought four of the pdfs in question.

Ironically enough, a few days before these went up for sale I finally found a hard copy of the Character Guide at what I considered a reasonable price. If I had known about the pdf's, I'm not sure if I would have done any different. I don't know how our actions reflect on either of our stances :)

Oh, I'm happy for people to make profits - and if they are following gaming pdf precedent in pricing with a reasonable forecast for sales (it is niche product, when all is said and done) for that then fair enough. I haven't really bought any other pdf products much but I was simply quite shocked by $20-30 for what is essentially an email with an attachment. Of course, if it is amazing - still haven't actually had time to read it yet - then it may be worth every penny.

So you're saying that "30% reduction" is about the difference between the cost of creating print and the cost of creating PDF?

Yep, pretty much. Each product is different, but on an average basis, that is correct.

-Lisa

The product is worth the money.

To me thirty bucks is too much for a PDF, regardless of what it is, with one possible exception. The Ptolus book, is in my opinion, the single most impressive RPG supliment ever produced. Before I bought it I didn't know that, though I was pretty pumped to get it. So if buying a thirty dollar PDF would have been the only way I could have gotten Ptolus, it wouldn't have happened...owning the book, and knowing how good it is, I would say I would drop thirty to have a PDF of it if I lost my hard copy and that was the only way I could get it.

Money being tight as it is, if the Iron Kingdoms stuff was twenty I would realy wish I had the extra money, though I wouldn't get it when all was said and done. Fifteen I would save up and buy it. For thirty? If I found a suitcase full of money on the street tonight, I wouldn't pay thirty for a PDF book.

Someone said Privateer is out of the RPG industry? This makes this even more laughable. Paizo is a company I like enough to over spend on occassion, justifying it to myself by "supporting the company"...Mulhavoc was likewise for a long time. I would not, for one second, consider over paying to support a company that is dropping it's RPG lines...there would be no sense in supporting them (to me anyways, I wouldn't mind trying Warmachine, but I'm trying to stear clear of table top war gaming alltogether).

I don't want this to sound like a complaint or a rant or anything like that. If the price is how it is because it realy truely needs to be that way, then that's how it has to be (though I don't believe that at all). It just translates to "I wont be buying this product".

Perhaps it's because I'm getting older, or responsibilities are quickly adding up, or the fact that I have a growing collection of setting books that have never truely been used, but I'm just not feeling the impulse on this particular product. Sure, I would dearly love to have it, and I kick myself whenever I remember that I didn't purchase the hardback books when I was a kid with disposable income. I guess this is one of the downfalls to the "luxory item" mentality that comes with gaming purchases. I honestly don't need this book. If it was cheaper I would buy it, but I can live happily without it.

Yeah....looking back, I realy just don't want to go to class...so instead I ramble and ramble and ramble here...

SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:

So you're saying that "30% reduction" is about the difference between the cost of creating print and the cost of creating PDF?

Yep, pretty much. Each product is different, but on an average basis, that is correct.

-Lisa

I can see that, but it also appears to me your putting that discount on the retail end, not the production/wholesale end. So I am now getting the inclination that Paizo's business plan is based upon direct sales via subscribers and website buyers far more than the conventional distributors channels.

If so that means you look at your retail discounted prices here on your website and via your subscriptions/convention sales for your bottom line far more than you guys look to your distributor channel sales.

If so that makes your pricing decisions and other comments make a whole lot more sense to me.

So if that is indeed how you guys get the lions share of your sales, good for you. It also proves that direct sales to your consumers is a good way to go.

So I hope I am right about my inclination.

Is there any chance of a print on demand version of the Iron Kingdoms books? the prices on ebay for the print versions does tend to indicate that a demand exists for the books to be purchased in print. I would love to pick up some that I am missing, but i really hate reading pdf format books.

I can see that, but it also appears to me your putting that discount on the retail end, not the production/wholesale end. So I am now getting the inclination that Paizo's business plan is based upon direct sales via subscribers and website buyers far more than the conventional distributors channels.

If so that means you look at your retail discounted prices here on your website and via your subscriptions/convention sales for your bottom line far more than you guys look to your distributor channel sales.

If so that makes your pricing decisions and other comments make a whole lot more sense to me.

So if that is indeed how you guys get the lions share of your sales, good for you. It also proves that direct sales to your consumers is a good way to go.

So I hope I am right about my inclination.

Our sales are a mix of direct sales and sales through the distribution channels Our pricing models take into account this blend of sales channels and decisions on prices are made taking both into consideration. Selling direct allows us to keep the MSRP much lower than it would if we were selling 100% through the distribution channels, but we don't base our pricing entirely upon selling direct, as that would leave us in a pickle for the hunk of sales we do through distribution channels. Instead, I have an Excel spreadsheet which predicts which percentage is going to go through which channel, and we base the price off that.

We need to balance keeping prices as low as we can with getting the profit margin that we need to stay in business. It is a constant vigil and battle.

-Lisa

I was completely unaware of these books when they were in print, but I just bought this pdf and after flipping through bits of it I'm really enjoying the feel of the game world. It's quite a lot of money for a pdf, but rather than worrying about paying too much I'm already making plans to buy the Character Guide too. Though obviously I'd still love it to be cheaper!

No idea if I'll ever get a chance to run a game in the Iron Kingdoms or not (it's competing against my homebrew, the other guys in my group who DM and some awesome Paizo stuff after all), but I'm sure that it'll be a great source of ideas. :)