Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook (OGL)

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook (OGL)

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Enter a fantastic world of adventure!

The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game puts you in the role of a brave adventurer fighting to survive in a world beset by magic and evil. Will you cut your way through monster-filled ruins and cities rife with political intrigue to emerge as a famous hero laden with fabulous treasure, or will you fall victim to treacherous traps and fiendish monsters in a forgotten dungeon? Your fate is yours to decide with this giant Core Rulebook that provides everything a player needs to set out on a life of adventure and excitement!

This imaginative tabletop game builds upon more than 10 years of system development and an open playtest involving more than 50,000 gamers to create a cutting-edge RPG experience that brings the all-time best-selling set of fantasy rules into the new millennium.

The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook includes:

  • All player and Game Master rules in a single volume
  • Complete rules for fantastic player races like elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, and half-orcs
  • Exciting new options for character classes like fighters, wizards, rogues, clerics, and more
  • Streamlined and updated rules for feats and skills that increase options for your hero
  • A simple combat system with easy rules for grapples, bull rushes, and other special attacks
  • Spellcaster options for magic domains, familiars, bonded items, specialty schools, and more
  • Hundreds of revised, new, and updated spells and magical treasures
  • Quick-generation guidelines for nonplayer characters
  • Expanded rules for curses, diseases, and poisons
  • A completely overhauled experience system with options for slow, medium, and fast advancement
  • ... and much, much more!

Available Formats

The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook is also available as:

Hardcover ISBN: 978-1-60125-150-3

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Errata
Last Updated - 5/30/2013

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What a Pathfinder truly needs...

5/5

If there is any one book to have, it is this one. It is the only Pathfinder book you will ever need to start playing, but if you're like me you'll eventually want more.

When I first learned of tabletop RPGs my attention turned to D&D even though I knew next to nothing about it, nor did I know of anyone who played it. I only knew it because it was the name everyone knew when someone said "tabletop RPG" and the answer wasn't "what is that?" I wanted to play it but I didn't know where to start. I was lost, forlorn, and alone.

Then, one fateful day, I met someone online who told me about Pathfinder. I took one look at the Core Rulebook and I never looked back, and to this day I don't regret the decision one bit. The Core Rulebook is a solid start to any aspiring tabletop gamer's adventure and is a must own not only for the abundance of useful information it provides but also for the clean presentation and the magnificent art provided by Wayne Reynolds.

In short, if you want to play Pathfinder and haven't already, pick this book up immediately. It is well worth it.


Legendary

5/5

Legendary. It’s hard to know where to begin to review this book, but that one word encapsulates it well. There’s a reason Pathfinder is thriving a decade into its existence, and it all starts here. If you don’t know anything about Pathfinder, you can think of it as a revised and improved version of a specific edition of D&D (the “3.5” edition). Its strength is the nearly infinite capacity for customization, and its weakness is that enormous customization introduces complexity. In other words, this is a “crunch heavy” instead of a “rules light” game. Trust me, it’s worth it though. This is going to be a long review because I’ve got fifteen chapters to cover in this massive, 575-page book! If you don’t have the patience to read through the whole review, the conclusion makes it clear: buy this book. With this and the Bestiary, you have years of adventure at your fingertips.

Chapter 1 is “Getting Started” (12 pages). This chapter contains a brief introduction to the game, an overview of each chapter, a glossary of common terms, an example of play (very useful if this is your first RPG ever), and the rules for generating ability scores for a character (how physically and mentally capable they are).

Chapter 2 is “Races” (11 pages). The “Core” races presented here are: Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Halflings, and Humans. As you would imagine, there are advantages and disadvantages to each race. The chapter spends a page on each race, and beyond the rules ramifications it takes care to talk about what members of that race typically look like, what their culture is like, why they often become adventurers, and how they relate to other races. It’s not an overwhelming amount of information (which is good for new players). For the most part, these races stick to fairly standard fantasy expectations.

Chapter 3 is “Classes” (57 pages). There are eleven “core classes” presented in this book: Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, and Wizard. The spread of classes does an excellent job covering different play-styles and roles within a group. The power level of these classes has been significantly bumped up from D&D 3.5, and there are a lot more choices to be made within each class. This makes the classes more complex, but also more satisfying to see advance up through each level. If you’re brand-new to Pathfinder, it might be good to stay away from spell-casters like the Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer, and Wizard until you get more experience, as the sheer number of choices to be made can be overwhelming at first.

Chapter 4 is “Skills” (27 pages). Skills are something that every character has and they determine the likelihood of success in doing certain things. Want to leap from one rooftop to another? Roll an Acrobatics check. Want to figure out what spell that evil wizard just cast at you? Roll a Spellcraft check. Different classes get bonuses to using particular skills, but every character, regardless of class, can become good at something if they invest their “skill points” in a particular skill. Pathfinder has condensed the number of skills slightly from D&D 3.5, though it still has more than newer RPGs tend to have. I like the diversity and ability to specialize in discrete areas, but some think there should have been further consolidation. Each skill is described with great detail on specifically what it allows you to do and not do, which is quite helpful in avoiding rules arguments.

Chapter 5 is “Feats” (29 pages). Feats are special abilities. Every character gets to choose one feat at every odd level, and some classes and races get “bonus” feats. A feat might be something that lets you fight better in darkness (“Blindfighting”) or it might be something that makes certain spells you cast more effective (“Spell Focus”). There are several dozen feats to choose from, so this can be one of the parts of character creation that takes the longest to do. Their value, again, is that they allow for enormous customization of a character. Just because there are two Fighters in the party doesn’t mean they’ll be identical, because feats allow them to operate in very different ways!

Chapter 6 is “Equipment” (16 pages). Your character will need a weapon, maybe some armor, and some other gear like a backpack or a coil of rope. But in addition, you might wonder how expensive a night’s stay at an inn is, or how much it’ll cost to persuade a local wizard to cast a spell for you. All of the answers are in this chapter. I really appreciate that every item and service isn’t just listed on a table with a price, but in addition most receive a description, a picture, and (sometimes) additional rules to explain how it works in actual gameplay.

Chapter 7 is “Additional Rules” (13 pages). The title of this chapter isn’t particularly helpful, as the entire book consists of rules. Really, it’s a miscellany of various things about your character. First up is Alignment, which is whether your character is good, evil, or somewhere in between. A lot of other RPGs dispense with such questions, but it is “hard-coded” into Pathfinder in the sense that it’s not just a role-playing choice: many spells, magic items, and other effects change depending on a character’s alignment. Next, there’s a few pages on “Vital Statistics” like determining a character’s age, height and weight, and (most importantly) carrying capacity (also known as “encumbrance”). If your character has a low Strength score, don’t expect him or her to be able to carry a lot of gear. Then, there’s a discussion of movement speeds in various contexts (in the course of a combat encounter, for example, or for travelling great distances overland). Last, a bunch of little things are covered under the title “Exploration”: how far characters can see in different levels of light, how to determine if an object can be intentionally broken, etc. It’s a chapter that’s easy to overlook but provides answers to a lot of “little things” that might come up during a session.

Chapter 8 is “Combat” (29 pages). Combat is a major part of Pathfinder, and there’s admittedly a lot to digest in a short number of pages here. The way the chapter is laid out isn’t necessarily intuitive, and later Paizo products (like the Strategy Guide) do a much better job making combat clearer. You’ll find everything you need in this chapter, but you’ll be flipping back and forth for a while. I’ve been playing for years and I still refer to it occasionally.

Chapter 9 is “Magic” (19 pages). This chapter discusses different categories of spells, how characters learn them, and how to read a spell entry in the next chapter. It’s a chapter that’s easy to skip over at first, but is actually pretty important once a campaign gets serious.

Chapter 10 is “Spells” (156 pages). You read that right: about a quarter of the book consists of an alphabetical list and description of several hundred different spells! The spells have been cleaned up and improved from D&D 3.5 for better gameplay, but what hasn’t changed is that magic still rules. If pure power is what you want, play a true spell-caster and you’ll find it.

Chapter 11 is “Prestige Classes” (23 pages). Prestige Classes are special classes that characters can eventually take, well into their adventuring careers, if they meet certain prerequisites. This book has ten of them: Arcane Archer, Arcane Trickster, Assassin, Dragon Disciple, Duelist, Eldritch Knight, Loremaster, Mystic Theurge, Pathfinder Chronicler, and Shadowdancer. For the most part, and until very recent, Pathfinder hasn’t been a game where prestige classes thrive. Apart from some specific flavour reasons, a character would usually be better off simply continuing in their base class rather than taking levels in a prestige class.

Chapter 12 is “Gamemastering” (15 pages). As its title indicates, this chapter helps the person running a game (the “Gamemaster” or “GM”) prepare an adventure, referee the rules, deal with common problems at the table, etc. It’s okay for what it is, but I’ve seen better resources to help new GMs figure out what they’re doing.

Chapter 13 is “Environment” (39 pages). This chapter contains a lot of little things to help make the setting interesting. It contains rules on weather, travelling through the wilderness, dealing with traps, and so forth. It’s primarily for the GM too and shouldn’t be a priority to master until more fundamental rules are digested.

Chapter 14 is “Creating NPCs” (11 pages). This chapter gives rules for creating background (non-player) characters by using “NPC classes” like a Commoner. I have to admit I never use this chapter, as I just rely on NPC stat blocks already generated in other Pathfinder products.

Chapter 15 is “Magic Items” (101 pages). Your adventurer is going to want some cool magic gear, and this chapter explains what it does, how much it costs, and how it’s made. It’s pretty extensive and detailed.

Last up, there are appendices summarizing “Special Abilities”, “Conditions” (status effects a character might be under), “Inspiring Reading”, and “Game Aids” (other products you can purchase).
The Core Rulebook is a hefty tome for an RPG book. For players coming from D&D 3.5, it’s basically a combination of the Player’s Handbook and the Dungeon Master’s Guide in a single volume, but refined and improved. The book is, with the single exception of the deities, completely “setting neutral” (that is, it’s suitable for play in any campaign world or a homemade setting). There’s some excellent artwork taken from other Paizo products mixed in with some artwork that’s more pedestrian. Still, the production quality overall is fantastic. I would normally go into more detail, but there are hard word counts on these reviews. So I’ll sum up by saying: this is the one book you won’t leave home without, and it’s worth every penny.

Special Note: The Core Rulebook was recently released in a smaller softcover. The interior is exactly the same as the sixth printing of the hardcover, but it’s lighter and easier to carry. I’ve been using it for a few months now, and I’m quite happy with the font size, reduced price, durability, and ease of use.


Pathfinder's Heart

5/5

This book is at the heart of all Pathfinder games. It is great and can be picked up regularly cheap with sales all over. (Humble Bundle 1$) I myself have a PDF but plan to pickup a hardcopy one day. Either one will do the trick and is always good to keep handy. I like the PDF because you can do keyword searches. Even if you don't ever use it. The cover art is pretty awesome.


A Fresh Start

5/5

After years of seeing the Pathfinder rule books on the shelves of my FLGS, I took the plunge in December of 2012. I bought the Core Rulebook and began skimming it immediately. My first discovery was the character creation rules. They were fun! Characters were cool in a way that I hadn't seen in previous editions of the world's oldest role-playing game. Within three months, I was up and running my first Pathfinder adventure. That was three years ago and I have no regrets getting involved with the Pathfinder system.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Stephen Klauk wrote:


Is there any way of getting a "lite" version of the PDF made for use on ipads/e-readers (say something at 150 dpi)?

I just got an iPad and when I open the current PDF up on it, it about chokes my poor iPad's PDF reader.

I suggest instead of using the Single File PDF try the One File Per Chapter PDF.

Liberty's Edge

Stephen Klauk wrote:

Is there any way of getting a "lite" version of the PDF made for use on ipads/e-readers (say something at 150 dpi)?

I just got an iPad and when I open the current PDF up on it, it about chokes my poor iPad's PDF reader.

Use the "iBooks" PDF reader.

When hooked up to computer to "update" drag your PDF file into the iTunes library when iTunes is open.

Then "sync" your ipad and its in your iBooks as a PDF. It has a great display showing up to 9 pages at once great for skimming the artwork. It does take the initial load a little bit to bring up all the pages but after the first time it stays up every time you go back to the screen. (Unless of course you have an updated file that you put into it like Core book 3.0 to 4.0.)

Sean

Silver Crusade

Just got my new core rules book, its not the 4th printing. I did notice the quality of the paper is poorer, and vibrant nature of the first printing is gone. That aside I think amazon shipped me a third or second printing.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Realsyntax wrote:
Just got my new core rules book, its not the 4th printing. I did notice the quality of the paper is poorer, and vibrant nature of the first printing is gone. That aside I think amazon shipped me a third or second printing.

You can see which printing you have at the bottom of the Credits page in the front of the book.

Paizo Employee CEO

Realsyntax wrote:
Just got my new core rules book, its not the 4th printing. I did notice the quality of the paper is poorer, and vibrant nature of the first printing is gone. That aside I think amazon shipped me a third or second printing.

Just thought that I would point out that we have used the exact same printer and the exact same print specs on each printing of the book, so any perception about different paper quality or vibrant nature of the printing job is probably due to an adrenaline rush as you got your first copy of the game. :)

-Lisa

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Lisa Stevens wrote:

Just thought that I would point out that we have used the exact same printer and the exact same print specs on each printing of the book, so any perception about different paper quality or vibrant nature of the printing job is probably due to an adrenaline rush as you got your first copy of the game. :)

-Lisa

You may have used the same printer, but there is a difference, Maybe not in quality, But I know for a fact that dark brown paper on the first page for the first printing is shiny, and for Printing 2-4 it is dull.

Edit: that is one way i use to tell the difference in printing, I know they don't have a first printing if it is dull and not shiny.

Silver Crusade

Lisa Stevens wrote:

Just thought that I would point out that we have used the exact same printer and the exact same print specs on each printing of the book, so any perception about different paper quality or vibrant nature of the printing job is probably due to an adrenaline rush as you got your first copy of the game. :)

-Lisa

Thank you for the information Lisa, its my second copy actually -- gave away my first in order to proselytize. ^^

Dragnmoon wrote:

You may have used the same printer, but there is a difference, Maybe not in quality, But I know for a fact that dark brown paper on the first page for the first printing is shiny, and for Printing 2-4 it is dull.

Edit: that is one way i use to tell the difference in printing, I know they don't have a first printing if it is dull and not shiny.

Your right I noticed the luster was gone, from those pages. The binding also seems to be better on this one than the first printing copy, I had. It is the third printing, so amazon has the third printing (I know people were asking about that).

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Lisa Stevens wrote:
Realsyntax wrote:
Just got my new core rules book, its not the 4th printing. I did notice the quality of the paper is poorer, and vibrant nature of the first printing is gone. That aside I think amazon shipped me a third or second printing.

Just thought that I would point out that we have used the exact same printer and the exact same print specs on each printing of the book, so any perception about different paper quality or vibrant nature of the printing job is probably due to an adrenaline rush as you got your first copy of the game. :)

-Lisa

Lisa is mistaken—we did change printers between the second and third printing, but she's correct that the specs for the main paper stock and the cover stock are the same as they've always been. The new printer uses a different binding method, so things related to the binding process—like the endpaper stock—could have changed (and obviously did).

Also, though Amazon may currently be shipping third printings from *one* warehouse, that doesn't necessarily mean they *only* have third printings in every warehouse. I'd expect that at least *some* of their warehouses probably have fourth printings by now, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are still some older printings circulating in their system somewhere.


Just received my hardcover copy - it's the third edition. Easy enough to fix with the errata and the PDF is fourth edition anyhow. No biggie.

Man, this beast is heavier than any college textbook I ever had. Who needs a battleaxe when you can just throw the book at them, literally, ha.


I have another slightly stupid question:

For crafting magical items, is there a price modifier for continuous-use items whose spells are based on hours a level? I notice that price modifier skips from "Multiply by 1.5" for 10 minutes a level to "Divide price in half" for spells with a 24 hour duration.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Ashram wrote:

I have another slightly stupid question:

For crafting magical items, is there a price modifier for continuous-use items whose spells are based on hours a level? I notice that price modifier skips from "Multiply by 1.5" for 10 minutes a level to "Divide price in half" for spells with a 24 hour duration.

You'll want to post rules questions in the Rules Questions Forum.


Vic Wertz wrote:
Also, though Amazon may currently be shipping third printings from *one* warehouse, that doesn't necessarily mean they *only* have third printings in every warehouse. I'd expect that at least *some* of their warehouses probably have fourth printings by now, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are still some older printings circulating in their system somewhere.

Vic, when did the fourth printing come out? I've been in a cave, apparently...

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Brian E. Harris wrote:
Vic, when did the fourth printing come out? I've been in a cave, apparently...

We announced that we started shipping them in this thread on October 4. (We also sent emails in early October to everyone who ordered it from us (in either Print or PDF format), letting them know so they could get the errata PDF.)


Vic Wertz wrote:
Brian E. Harris wrote:
Vic, when did the fourth printing come out? I've been in a cave, apparently...
We announced that we started shipping them in this thread on October 4. (We also sent emails in early October to everyone who ordered it from us (in either Print or PDF format), letting them know so they could get the errata PDF.)

So you did! I wasn't reading personal emails while in the cave, so I've got a bunch of stuff to catch up on, but there it is!

Thanks for the heads-up.

For what it's worth (if anyone cares), the following Amazon warehouses are shipping 3rd Printing Core Rulebooks (or were this past week):

Redmond, WA
Phoenix, AZ
Parsons, KS

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Brian E. Harris wrote:

For what it's worth (if anyone cares), the following Amazon warehouses are shipping 3rd Printing Core Rulebooks (or were this past week):

Redmond, WA
Phoenix, AZ
Parsons, KS

Is that something that anyone could see somewhere?


Vic Wertz wrote:
Brian E. Harris wrote:

For what it's worth (if anyone cares), the following Amazon warehouses are shipping 3rd Printing Core Rulebooks (or were this past week):

Redmond, WA
Phoenix, AZ
Parsons, KS

Is that something that anyone could see somewhere?

Only if they happened to order three books on three different orders that ended up shipping from three different warehouses.

I thought it was odd that they came from different warehouses, myself...


Do you happen to know how come Borders.com only has used copies? Did they not reorder through your distributor with the newest printing maybe? I was hoping to pick one up with a coupon for a friend's son for Hanukkah, but no longer on the shelf and only pulls up on Borders.com as a "used book".

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Lord Zeb wrote:
Do you happen to know how come Borders.com only has used copies? Did they not reorder through your distributor with the newest printing maybe? I was hoping to pick one up with a coupon for a friend's son for Hanukkah, but no longer on the shelf and only pulls up on Borders.com as a "used book".

I'll have our sales manager look into it—thanks for letting us know!


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
Lord Zeb wrote:
Do you happen to know how come Borders.com only has used copies? Did they not reorder through your distributor with the newest printing maybe? I was hoping to pick one up with a coupon for a friend's son for Hanukkah, but no longer on the shelf and only pulls up on Borders.com as a "used book".
I'll have our sales manager look into it—thanks for letting us know!

It is almost impossible to find ANY rpg books (except WotC product) available for order on the Borders website. The bricks-and-mortar store locations will carry RPG books that will not show up on the website; Pathfinder, Shadowrun and Eclipse Phase come to mind immediately as things I've seen at my local Borders but are not listed on their website.

I imagine it may be a function of the distribution sources used for the website versus the sources used for bricks and mortar inventory.
The website sources may be limited Baker & Taylor and/or Ingram while the stores can get stock from Diamond as well.

EDIT: I just looked and it does look like there is Pathfinder product listed on their website now, although I still can't find Shadowrun or Eclipse Phase.


This may have already been noticed, but in the fourth edition of the core rulebook, crafting magic items has 2 different skill DCs. In the feat section under item creation feats (pg 112) it states the skill check is 10+CL. In the Magic Item Creation section (pg 548) it states it as 5+CL. Which is correct?

Thanks!

John

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Ratoshigan wrote:

This may have already been noticed, but in the fourth edition of the core rulebook, crafting magic items has 2 different skill DCs. In the feat section under item creation feats (pg 112) it states the skill check is 10+CL. In the Magic Item Creation section (pg 548) it states it as 5+CL. Which is correct?

Thanks!

John

This would be better posted in the rules forum.

Liberty's Edge

I see the Core Rules are on the top of the best seller list again. Our favorite game system must have a lot more fans now! I can't wait until my nephews are old enough to play.


Hi,

First time here. I would like to know something. I bought the Core Rulebook last fall. I read it all except the spell section. Yesterday, for my own curiosity, I checked some spells. I had the surprise to note that I had some redundant pages and missing others. I have twice the pages 289 to 320 and missing the pages 297 to 312. (Third printing of the book.)

Am I the only one? Now, I must buy another one. I hesitated to buy online and to receive another faulty copy.

Thanks!

OtakuQc

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
OtakuQc wrote:

Hi,

First time here. I would like to know something. I bought the Core Rulebook last fall. I read it all except the spell section. Yesterday, for my own curiosity, I checked some spells. I had the surprise to note that I had some redundant pages and missing others. I have twice the pages 289 to 320 and missing the pages 297 to 312. (Third printing of the book.)

Am I the only one? Now, I must buy another one. I hesitated to buy online and to receive another faulty copy.

Thanks!

OtakuQc

Shoot an email to custserv and ask them if anything can be done about that.


Gorbacz wrote:
OtakuQc wrote:

Hi,

First time here. I would like to know something. I bought the Core Rulebook last fall. I read it all except the spell section. Yesterday, for my own curiosity, I checked some spells. I had the surprise to note that I had some redundant pages and missing others. I have twice the pages 289 to 320 and missing the pages 297 to 312. (Third printing of the book.)

Am I the only one? Now, I must buy another one. I hesitated to buy online and to receive another faulty copy.

Thanks!

OtakuQc

Shoot an email to custserv and ask them if anything can be done about that.

Thanks! I will.

But I don't mind to have another core book. It's always good around the gaming table. When I played ADD2nd, I had 3 PHBs.

My only concern is if there's more than one case of flawed corebook, I will hesited to purchase another one online. I just don't want to have a second one in the same state.

Silver Crusade

Wanted to mention as of 3/18 amazon still is shipping the third printing.


Realsyntax wrote:
Wanted to mention as of 3/18 amazon still is shipping the third printing.

Thanks for the update. I've been holding off ordering another copy from Amazon, as I want a 4th printing, but was unsure if they'd be distributing them yet.


Realsyntax wrote:
Wanted to mention as of 3/18 amazon still is shipping the third printing.

Some of amazon's warehouses are distributing fourth printing books, though, at least in Europe. I re-ordered a Core Rulebook in early January from amazon.de and got a fourth printing (and a second printing of the Bestiary from the UK at the same time).

Silver Crusade

Olwen wrote:
Realsyntax wrote:
Wanted to mention as of 3/18 amazon still is shipping the third printing.
Some of amazon's warehouses are distributing fourth printing books, though, at least in Europe. I re-ordered a Core Rulebook in early January from amazon.de and got a fourth printing (and a second printing of the Bestiary from the UK at the same time).

Well if it helps, anyone: I am in the states and the box was post marked from Phoenix, Az. Indicating that warehouse indeed has third printings.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Realsyntax wrote:
Olwen wrote:
Realsyntax wrote:
Wanted to mention as of 3/18 amazon still is shipping the third printing.
Some of amazon's warehouses are distributing fourth printing books, though, at least in Europe. I re-ordered a Core Rulebook in early January from amazon.de and got a fourth printing (and a second printing of the Bestiary from the UK at the same time).
Well if it helps, anyone: I am in the states and the box was post marked from Phoenix, Az. Indicating that warehouse indeed has third printings.

I have no reason to believe that Amazon practices "First In, First Out" with books, or that they even know there *are* differences between printings of this book. And I expect that different warehouses have had different stock levels of older printings when newer printings arrived. In short, I wouldn't be surprised if Amazon still has a few *first printings* kicking around somewhere in their system, but I'd think that by now, a pretty high percentage of their copies are probably fourth printings.

I can tell you that if you want to *guarantee* that you get the latest printing, you most likely will need to either check the physical product in a retail store, or order it from us.


So Vic, I am curious. Every time there is a new printing, what do you do with previous printings? Send them to other sellers (online stores/FLGS) to make sure you only have the most recent printing?

Paizo Employee CEO

Hobbun wrote:
So Vic, I am curious. Every time there is a new printing, what do you do with previous printings? Send them to other sellers (online stores/FLGS) to make sure you only have the most recent printing?

We never release a new printing of a book until we (that is Paizo) has sold off all the copies of the previous printing. So we never have any previous printings sitting around, just the current printing. Now stores out there, especially in the book trade, could have all sorts of different printings, since they can return books which then get sold by the book distributor back into different stores. So there could be some little book store that ordered a first printing that finally decides to return it, the distributor gets it back and then sells it to Amazon.

I hope this helps...

-Lisa


Ok, thanks Lisa.

There was no devious reason why I asked, I was curious how you made sure you only had the current printing.


Hobbun wrote:

Ok, thanks Lisa.

There was no devious reason why I asked, I was curious how you made sure you only had the current printing.

I wonder how many fourth printing books they have left... I was thinking of getting a third Core book for the gaming table but am holding off until the fifth printing ;)

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Mick McKee wrote:
Hobbun wrote:

Ok, thanks Lisa.

There was no devious reason why I asked, I was curious how you made sure you only had the current printing.

I wonder how many fourth printing books they have left... I was thinking of getting a third Core book for the gaming table but am holding off until the fifth printing ;)

As long as we have stock of a particular printing, we don't talk about dates for the next printing, partly because we don't necessarily know when we'll sell out of the currently available one.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I really had a laugh out of the latest 2-star review.

Overpowered Monks!

Old, stable, balanced Fighters!

Cantrips make Wizard a Warlock!

D10 for Rangers and D8 for Rogues is way too much!

The only thing I missed was a slam against Tome of Weeabo Fightan Magic (also known as Tome of Battle), and we would get a perfect Clueless Man's Review.


The clueless man cares about balance. Adding more abilities unequally to classes throws out the balance 3.5 had. Fighters have been one of the old staples of dnd, and if the other classes dont balance with them, if they get so much over the fighter, then there is unbalance. Wizards have never had an unending supply of any type of spell before, therefore in that sense the unlimited cantrip is like the warlocks spellcasting.

On rangers and fighters, fighters get feats and small bonuses. Rangers get favoured enemies, ranger feats and terrains, later some spells, we now depart from balance if the ranger gets more skills with a better selection and also the fighter hit die. This is the elaboration of my argument.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Unlimited cantrips change exactly nothing in the game balance. Warlocks could do at-will Black Tentacles, Wizards can...yeah, 1d3 frost rays. Sure.

Fighters still outdamage Rangers, who are entirely dependant on the DM either playing nice and telling you ahead what kind of monsters will you face OR dropping them on you from time to time. A Fighter doesn't have to worry about that. A Ranger is screwed if you pick fav enemy (fuzzy gremlins) and your game is all about killing undead. This is double true for PFS, where you can't really have a long-term consideration of fav enemy. So it becomes more a "oh yay I FINALLY got one" bonus.

(That's a global Ranger problem not exclusive to Pathfinder, mind you, but it strikes the point about Fighter having one problem less).

And as for skills, they become less and less relevant with full casters around, so no big one. Of course, here comes the "casters vs. everybody else" argument, but I'll drop that for more than one reason.

And I really am lost on Monks, because they went from second worst 3.5 class to worst PF class. Paladins, on the other hand, went from worst 3.5 class to OMFGBBQ now they really can do something in PF.


Ah the favoured enemy problem. In a type of monster a week game, it really is a problem. In a game of diverse enemies, always changing, also a nuisance. However, in something like Second Darkness, favoured enemy drow would rock.

Currently I am in a few games, one is set in a very human and orcish world. As rogues and mercs either of the above as favoured would really be helpful, in fact I have been tempted to jump the roguish ship and give the ranger another go (not my favourite class though).

Don't forget to check the feats though, there is one to take new enemies, believe you need level five or so, and they start at +2. A ranger can diversify, so that he is on at least some bonuses to many different things. The ranger might be a fine specialist in the blade, but lose that blade and trouble rears its head for him if he was too reliant on his weapon. Rangers can work, they don't need extra hp, they aren't that weak and can top fighters in damage (see the fully-kitted out ranged focus ranger). Another way is take a good stout weapon with reach (burn a feat) and powerful charge, your first round can really rock (I prefer the awl-pike for this build). I did this with a 3.5 ranger against pathfinder monsters in the kingmaker campaign.

The funniest story I can recall is a char wanting to take dire fowl as his favoured enemy. The DM, a temperamental man got agitated and said no. Never one to do much research in the pre-gens he was running, we actually came up against such creatures later. When you think about it, there are quite a few sizeable nasty avian enemies about, not just the pyrolisk. Big birds are terrifying.

Whether you consider skills relevant or not, they are still a factor. If the ranger detects an ambush and the fighter doesn't, the ranger isn't surprised. Stealth that beautiful skill, is not on the fighter's default list, and it is relevant that the ranger has double the skill points of the fighter (4 to 2), all things being equal.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Adding more abilities unequally to classes throws out the balance 3.5 had.

If you think 3.5 was balanced, this is not the place for you.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

3.5 wasn't balanced. pathfinder isn't balanced. no edition of DnD has every been truly balanced. Except maybe 4e. Now everyone is entitled to their opinion, I think Pathfinder is better balanced than 3.5 was. But each to their own.


Dark_Mistress wrote:
3.5 wasn't balanced. pathfinder isn't balanced. no edition of DnD has every been truly balanced. Except maybe 4e. Now everyone is entitled to their opinion, I think Pathfinder is better balanced than 3.5 was. But each to their own.

Pathfinder went a long way to making previously useless core classes (except for dipping or prestige class prerequisites) useful again all the way to level 20. Yes, some of these had to have the strength of their abilities increased. No that isn't necessarily balanced. But balanced is boring in my opinion.

Edit: Meant to add, "I agree with D_M."

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Adding more abilities unequally to classes throws out the balance 3.5 had.
If you think 3.5 was balanced, this is not the place for you.

That's something everybody on this forum can get behind, I think.

We do vary greatly as to how the imbalances should be fixed and how did they impact our games, but more or less everyone here is able to see where 3.5 dropped the ball in class design.

Glaringly Obvious Examples: Paladin and Monk.


I have more experience using the monk and seeing it in action, so I'll elaborate upon why it is not weak. Plenty of attacks, good damage compared to two-weapon fighting, which has similarities to flurry. Good saves, okay hp, nice mobility and some special abilities and immunities once you get to mid levels. The monk is an odd sort of combat generalist, not specialised in raising to hit so high, or damage through the roof. Their AC can rise quite nicely with some enchantments, a good dex and wis.

A fighter with low speed can sometimes not flee a bad combat. The monk if things are going dire, usually can escape. Not all combat can be won out-right and with ease. A good chance of escaping is a great class benefit to survivability.

I've been watching one monk fight pathfinder/3.5/3rd ed monsters for months. The feats were put into dodge so as to win over time with flurries and power attacks, the wear opponents down tactic. Choi seems to do just fine, he is up to level 12 now. I've seen low ac monks get defeated easily, but low ac characters can always be taken out with massive damage or many hits, so this weakness isn't specific to the monk, but to the low ac build.

To put it another way, they are not quite as good at fighting as fighters, but then they get immunities and mobility that the fighter/ranger/barb doesn't. There is a balance here. Dash, to increase base speed by 5 is a feat. Monks get two of these and then more later. Not strongest on the numbers, greatly endowned on the special and feat-like abilities.

Now I've tested the core monk, let them be played. I ended up tearing them back to 3.5. The new ki abilities were far too much, all those bonuses, those extras, already added to good saves, mobility, decent damage and immunities. The designers tried to make them sexier and what ended up happening was the class info became hugely bloated. On the chart where it tracks level benefits it became just ridiculous. When each levels gives more and more, you know you have encountered wrought.

On paladins, I've never found them weak. Always made them into decent builds or seen them used well. There are feats to work on their strengths (more smites) and they do quite well against evil opponents. Their saves keep them standing and in control, they can hit with the good bab, hp can be a weakness, but they also have that smite to use to good effect. If a paladin is fighting good foes, he shouldn't be, if he is fighting a lot of neutrals in the service of dark powers, that is certainly annoying, but does not make the paladin immediately one of the weakest classes.

The you aren't welcome here message, "this is not the place for you" that I'm getting as a bit of a dissenter, makes me question is this a forum for product and gaming discussion. It's the old I'd like it if you weren't here person who disagrees with me. This is very common. Well I'm not going anywhere, I will comment on these products and the flaws in the gaming system. I can understand that some always want more power and less of a focus on balance, but that doesn't make it right.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

This is a forum of people who wanted 3.5 changed. You want it changed back. We literally have no common ground to discuss from. I'm telling you now that you are going to find nothing but arguments here.

For the record, I'm not ignoring your balance arguments. I cannot respond to them because you think the fighter class is balanced, and that is so alien a mindset to me that I cannot give you a fair response.

Shadow Lodge

You are free to your opinion, but maybe it's just late and my brain isn't working...

"Really close to a 1 with all the wrought and unbalance."

What does this mean?


Ah, it means I was tempted to give it a 1. By wrought, what is meant is changing a class' benefits to get around its weaknesses, or increasing benefits too quickly or too vastly (the monk, the paladin with half the healer classes added). It's a form of cheating, wrought imbalances the game.

An example is taking a certain interpretation on the rogue's sneak attack. From 1st ed, to 2nd, you could do one in a round. It was called backstab then. Now some people in 3.5 and pathfinder argue you can do multiple sneak attacks in the same round. Under the text description it doesn't say you can do only one sneak attack per round. So you can get players who duel wield, hasten up and do 3d6 +x3 damage mod(from three scimitar hits) +9d6 (3d6+3d6+3d6) sneak if he is fifth level (as an example). This is wrought in regards to damage, a level five wizard or ranger or barb would not get anywhere near that amount of damage. But some people consider this right, conning more d6s into the equation. That's it a precision attack is lost on them, some get behind the wrought.

One dm I know allowed it, and a really tough melee character played by a friend, almost got killed in two rounds (from full health) by a monster that wasn't even pure rogue, but had multiple attacks.

Now on pathfinder and 3.5, I take some elements from pathfinder. I've got access to and read the books. I play-tested beta, re-worked my games to take in parts of what pathfinder offers. Remember that is what pathfinder offered, to stick to 3.5 and add new rules, interpretations and a re-worked system.

In regards to classes, my concern as a dm is balance. The wizard can cast cool spells, the ranger can sneak around in the woods and track, but the rogue should not be able to average 40-50 damage at level 5.


Sneak Attack - If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue attack deals extra damage

1) anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dextertiy bonus or not)

or

2)when the rogue flanks her target.

1 and 2 are the conditions under which a rogue can apply sneak attack damamge. They are just that, conditions. Just like a Ranger is going to be more effective under certain conditions vs. certain opponents. Youre talking as if these conditions arent in fact conditions and they are things that are the norm nad happen all the time.

There are times where a rogue isnt going to be able to flank an opponent or deny him/her thier Dex bonus. In those instances they dont get the extra damamge.

There is no "conning" more D6's into the equation. Either the attack meets the above conditions or it doesnt.

In the games that I run? sometimes depending on many different factors (starting range of an encounter, who gets surprised first, how willing the party rogue is willing to move through squares occupied by opponents, etc) it's easy to create an environment where those conditions apply other times it's not so easy. And I have a multi class fighter / Rouge AND a single classed Rogue characters in my game. But they are by no means a foregone conclusion nor should they be allowed to be thought of as so by players and DM's alike.


Also if your only barameter for effectiveness during combat is hp Damage output then yes that sneak attacking rogue is going to be hella effective. However, a 5th level Wizard posesses a few spells that can pretty much either stop a combat cold or change it's outcome pretty drastically.

Like a rogues abilities, those spell effects are conditional (in this case they are conditional on a failed saving throw by the target) but a failed save for a Hold Person, Deep Slumber, Slow, Ray of Exhaustion, or Stinking Cloud can be just as challenging and game changing as the output from your rogue example.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

TriOmegaZero wrote:
This is a forum of people who wanted 3.5 changed. You want it changed back. We literally have no common ground to discuss from. I'm telling you now that you are going to find nothing but arguments here.

With respect, TriOmegaZero, this is a forum for discussing Paizo products. Specifically, the Pathfinder Core Rules. I don't see any requirements that those discussions be unremitting praise.

I can't speak for everybody, but I didn't particularly want to see 3.5 changed three years ago. I'm happy enough with Pathfinder to play it in PFS OP, and to GM it. But I'm happy enough with 3.5 to play it with my friends in weekly campaigns.

3.5 Loyalist gave an honest review of the game system, citing reasons and concerns. If we can't respect that, then that's our lack, not his.

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