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While I agree with Halflings getting a charisma bonus, the justification for it as written doesn't work well:
+2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, –2 Strength: Halflings are nimble and strong-willed, but their small stature makes them weaker than other races.
Wouldn't a "strong-willed" race get a bonus to the ability score that affects the will save, i.e. Wisdom? Again, I agree that Halflings should get a Charisma bonus, but the justification doesn't really seem to fit.
I thought more Intelligence for Charisma.
Or you give gnomes Wisdom instead of charisma, that would also be okay.
But both small races with -2 Str and +2 Cha? It's hard to show people what's the difference between the races is, at things are. ^^
Charisma comes into play when people want to determine who is right in an argument, which plan will be used, or if the guard gets you to not hang around on the palace stairs.
Wisdom (and therefore will saves) is to determine if you can resist the magical commands in your head, or keep from succumbing to the sleep spell.
Two different kinds of strong will.
Someone once said that Charisma is your mental strength, but wisdom is your mental constitution (and intelligence your mental agility).
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Sounds right Neithan.
also lets remember halfling live by their reflex and by being able to talk their way out of problems...
that is why they make great entertainers (bards)
but i don't see them as being the wisest people arounds... since they got in problems so easily first...
have i say how i hate Halflings and gnomes in concept? why do i am here defending the concept? damn ruleslawyer
Halflings are adorable and funny but never have any idea what they're doing. I say Cha is right.
And Charisma is OFFENSIVE will while Wis is how well you resist the will of others. Sort of. I think... Yeah, I agree with the mental Str/dex/con idea.
I'd be okay with halflings having the +2 Cha if gnomes didn't, or vice-versa. But I'm not a big fan of both having that bonus. It's grown a b8it on me though as I love the idea of a halfling sorcerer, and it suits Lem and I adore the iconics.
Well, like Neithan, Adam and the others. I agree with them. They've said it all, already.
This
I think that both of the small races should not have a bonus to charisma.
My suggestion would be to either give gnomes +2 intelligence and change their favorite class or give halflings +2 wisdom. Normally +2 wisdom might not make sense, but in the pathfinder world, halflings use their weak look wisely. Also, i think that it says somewhere that halflings can stand slavery for longer which seems to show mental fortitude to me.
Add a +1 to the general "Halflings and gnomes all look the same to me" argument.
I personally don't mind if whichever one is changed for its mental bonus needs a slight modification to their flavor. They already are occupying mostly the same niche right now. I appreciate tying the gnomes further to the fey, but still more effort should be made to differentiate the two races flavor-wise.
I'd personally give +2 Wis to the halflings and make ranger a favored class instead of bard. Make halflings communitarian but self-sufficient (it comes with the small size), with a favored class for each city/rural environment.
I second this. Well, most of it. With their current ability adjustments gnomes and halflings are a little too similar for my liking. Part of being opportunistic is having acute awareness to capitalize on situations, hence a bonus to Wis. This also makes them pretty decent monks and rangers which I think is an interesting concept.
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Well I think that for what they are, a +2 to charisma for a halfling makes sense to me. I don't see them as any smarter or wiser then anyone else but I agree that the wording on it doesn't exactly add up.
Maybe instead of, "Half lings are nimble and strong-willed" something like, "Half lings are nimble and have strong personalities"
Something like that?
I think Gnomes might do better with a bonus to Int for being industrious, but honestly if both halflings and gnomes get a +2 to charisma, they still have other different stats.
They're small so -2 to strength, but gnomes get +2 to constitution and halflings get +2 to dexterity. They have other different racial abilities all together so it shouldn't be that hard to tell them apart.
Though if it's on the table, maybe swap out gnomes for kobolds? :3
I think Charisma bonus is appropriate for Halflings, but I think those posters who suggest that it makes the Halflings similar to Gnomes have a point. Perhaps we could give Gnomes an Intelligence bonus instead...
Don't drop the gnome. Aside from the cushy gig for Travelocity, being kicked out of the 4e PH has suddenly raised their stature in the gaming community. Besides, how else do you explain Gnome Titans?
I'd personally give +2 Wis to the halflings and make ranger a favored class instead of bard. Make halflings communitarian but self-sufficient (it comes with the small size), with a favored class for each city/rural environment.
This please.
I think Charisma bonus is appropriate for Halflings, but I think those posters who suggest that it makes the Halflings similar to Gnomes have a point. Perhaps we could give Gnomes an Intelligence bonus instead...
YES! Then we could have 1e-style gnome illusionists back, FTW! Or give gnomes a Wisdom bonus instead, and give 'em druid as a favored class. Halflings with high Cha (and bard/rogue as a favored classes) will remain in my homebrew campaign regardless.
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I don't post much, but I've been thinking on this topic since Alpha 2, so here we go...
First let me say that I love and play both gnomes and halflings. My two "iconic" pc's that show up time and again are a halfling wizard and a gnome bard. I see value in each race and the RP differences are night and day to me, similar to elves and dwarves.
What needs to be determined is where the halfling +2 mental stat fits and what to do about both races favored classes. I liked the +2 int for halflings in alpha 1. They are opportunists and jack-of-all-trades by heart picking up new ideas, and what plays to that strength better than +2 int? It is true that this brings them a little too close to elves in stat bonuses, but the str/con disparity and the size difference throw these two races into different roles already. I could also see the viability of rogue/wizard as the halfling's favored class. Again we see some crossover between the elf favored class and the halfing, sharing the wizard class, though the elven magic racial ability and the halfling's luck and fearless abilities combined with the str/con disparity should make for two very different wizards.
But what about Wisdom? For starters, two of the five "inhuman" races already have +2 wis to only one having +2 int. While the elves being the only race to have +2 int sets them apart from the other races, speaking to the antiquity of their culture, having yet another race with +2 wis just blends the other races together. This, I think, is the reason that halflings got lumped into the +2 cha in the first place. Still, halfings with a +2 wis could make for an interesting choice in favored class. Rogue / monk, anyone? And perhaps the dwarf could be moved to the +2 int club, for similar reasons to the elves: ancient lineage, tradition, and racial knowledge. Besides, Craft is an int based skill...
Charisma is where the halfling stands now. That both small races get the -2 to str is a given. That they both get +2 cha (while it makes sense) brings them too close together, an historic problem in the eyes of many gamers. The reason halflings get +2 charisma at all is because their +2 int bonus from alpha 1 (which is still my preference) brought them too close in stats to the elves, also with +2 dex / +2 int. The gnome is set, the +2 charisma playing into their fey nature and their favorite class, the bard. The only reason I can see the halflings keeping their +2 cha is to play to their paizo iconic as a fovored class, something which no other race does. Not one race / class combo (elf rogue, dwarf ranger, and gnome druid) falls into their respective game stats as a favored class. Further, while the elf and dwarf make odd if appropriate choices for class, the gnome druid is just a bad choice statistically (though my second favorite iconic, behind the dwarf). Even removing the +2 cha and replacing it with +2 int does not hurt the bard overmuch, simply changing it's focus from performer/spellcaster to the aforementioned jack-of-all-trades and highlights the bardic knowledge ability. More knowledge skills = more better (bad English, good cadence).
As for favored class, I have tried to address the halfling's choices as I went through my breakdown of the options available for their bonus to a mental stat. I also feel that the gnome's choices are rather weak. While I have always been a vocal proponent of the gnome bard (playing one before 3.5 when the official change was made) I dislike bard / sorcerer (and the halfling's current bard / rogue). The classes are too close together statistically for me. Saying "You play a gnome, so you spontaneously cast and the only stat you need is charisma" seems a little contrived. The other races have a class for their mental stat and one for their physical. The Golarion gnomes are fey creatures of nature that can speak with animals. They are known wanderers, always needing new experiences to keep from aging and to cement them in the material plane (for those of you who are asking "wha?" see the hardcover campaign setting). They are rugged survivors, with higher than average constitution. Why not make their favored classes bard / ranger? And besides, maybe we'll finally see someone use a gnome hooked hammer!
Ryn, who got a little long winded
YES! Then we could have 1e-style gnome illusionists back, FTW! Or give gnomes a Wisdom bonus instead, and give 'em druid as a favored class. Halflings with high Cha (and bard/rogue as a favored classes) will remain in my homebrew campaign regardless.
I am all in favor of bringing the gnome back to its first edition roots as the illusionist extraordinaire.
halflings: -2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Cha Favored Classes: Rogue, Bard
gnomes: -2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int Favored Classes: Wizard, Bard
the reason i was leaning towards changing the halflings is that the gnome flavor ext is interesting and supports +2 cha, while the halflings probably need upgraded flavor anyway to make them more interesting.
halflings: -2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Cha Favored Classes: Rogue, Bard
gnomes: -2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int Favored Classes: Wizard, Bard
This also works for me, but I'd still rather not see Halflings have bard as a favored class.
This also works for me, but I'd still rather not see Halflings have bard as a favored class.
That's interesting. I actually prefer it; given the option, I'd probably have the following:
Halflings: -2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Cha; favored classes: rogue, bard;
(Forest) Gnomes: -2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int; favored classes: ranger, wizard (or)
(Hill) Gnomes: -2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Wis; favored classes: ranger, druid.
This emphasizes the halfling's "sneaky, skilled" schtick, and the gnomes' "fey nature critters" one.
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I think Charisma bonus is appropriate for Halflings, but I think those posters who suggest that it makes the Halflings similar to Gnomes have a point. Perhaps we could give Gnomes an Intelligence bonus instead...
That's what I've proposed elsewhere. Charisma doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me for Gnomes as opposed to Intelligence. Halflings, on the other hand, being the little charmers they are, deserve a Charisma bonus.
Gnome illusionists FTW!