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Pathfinder Society T-Shirt: Cheliax Faction

**½( )( ) (based on 2 ratings)

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When Aroden died, some say the soul of Cheliax perished with him. The once mighty empire tore itself apart, and only through the power of three noble Houses, each steeped in deviltry, was order restored. The empire runs on the backs of fiends now, a perfect machine of hellfire and blood, where morality surrenders to the needs of law and order. It's easy to curse Cheliax as a nation of devil-lovers, but few can argue with the results of their fiend-binding craft. House Thrune, the greatest of its diabolic noble families, has brought the empire under control once more. Cheliax rises like a dark star, as strong as ever, despite the recent losses of Galt and Andoran to rebellious forces.

Features the Cheliax faction logo in red and white on a black 100%-cotton tee.

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Product Discussion (61)
1 to 50 of 61 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Cheliax Contributor

*squee*


Any chance for getting one in pink or lavender? ;)

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Greatest shirt EVER

Cheliax

Are you going to have any of these at GenCon UK?

I'd love to wear them around the con, and I'm not sure one would arrive in time if I ordered it for delivery.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber

There could be a problem with this.

Cheliax Contributor

Auxmaulous wrote:
There could be a problem with this.

Explain.


No offense, but I wouldn't wear that on patrol in Iraq... it looks like a sniper's crosshairs.

Cheliax

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
Mike McArtor wrote:
Auxmaulous wrote:
There could be a problem with this.
Explain.

A few days ago I was going to post a thread entitled "What does Cheliax, The Church of Satan and the 2nd SS Panzer Division - "Das Reich" all have in common?"

Of course with all the Beta excitement and work I forgot.

Not a major issue per say, but looking at the symbol as it appeared in the Gazetteer as the Cheliax flag, and later on the cover of the Last Baron Module, the symbol is a Wolfsangel, or Wolfshook - a Germanic rune that has been associated with WWII national socialism movements and popular in the post-war NS scene, also used by the Church of Satan and various white power groups. The symbol as it appears on the shirt a little less so, but it does looking incredibly like a NS/Nazi symbol.

I think that is why I found the symbol so powerful and appropriate for the Cheliax Empire, it is the Germanic runic base for the swastika (in addition to the Black Sun).

I can't say that I am an authority on history or runic traditions, but being a skinhead for 19 (of my 37) years has put me in some bizarre circles. I have seen this symbol before (be it on tats, shirts or album covers).

The Cheliax flag is probably the closest thing you could get for a Nazi type banner (the color scheme, inverted swords, wolfshook) for a quasi-medieval game. It is the perfect symbol for the combination of fascism and devil worship.
Now that, is hardcore.

For the record I am not offended personally; it is a symbol for a fantasy game and I bring it up as more of a point of concern for Paizo getting some idiots worked up about their products.

Edit to add: when I say "skin" I mean and Oi/Punk skin, not a goose stepping stormtrooper. I don't go out beating up people of other ethnicities or do anything of that moronic nature. WP skins are actually a minority in the skin counter culture, most people don't know that.

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Fascinating post, Auxmaulos. What does NS mean?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Zootcat wrote:
Fascinating post, Auxmaulos. What does NS mean?

I'm assuming "National Socialist", AKA Nazi.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Auxmaulous wrote:
Not a major issue per say, but looking at the symbol as it appeared in the Gazetteer as the Cheliax flag, and later on the cover of the Last Baron Module, the symbol is a Wolfsangel, or Wolfshook - a Germanic rune that has been associated with WWII national socialism movements and popular in the post-war NS scene, also used by the Church of Satan and various white power groups. The symbol as it appears on the shirt a little less so, but it does looking incredibly like a NS/Nazi symbol.

I had meant to say something about this, too. See here, from the Anti-Defamation League's website (second row, last image).

Taldor

The pitfalls of symbolism I suppose. It's all been done before.

It's a great, thoughtful post, but I don't think Paizo is in dangerous waters. If it took this long for someone to point out the similarity (in a community that has more than a few history buffs), then we're probably safe.

However, your comparisons have sparked my imagination. The Chelaxian tableau has come alive. Thanks!

Edit: IconoclasticScream's link has put me in a bad spot. That does look rather close. Considering the colors and the nature of the Cheliax empire...erg. Hmm.

....

Now where's the dang Taldor T-shirt? I do hope it comes with an ascot.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
Zootcat wrote:
Fascinating post, Auxmaulos. What does NS mean?

NS = National Socialist, more or less generic for post WWII racial or separatist movements.

I'm not try to raise non-issues to issue status, just bringing it up as an FYI. The shirt logo doesn't look like an exact replica of their flag as depicted in the books, but looks more like the Odin/Celtic cross which has been co-opted and now associated with WP and NS groups. The actual hooks on the shirt are different than the book logos which are in fact Wolfhooks - by coincidence if not by design.

Not really big deal, more of an FYI concerning the subject.

Qadira

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Auxmaulous wrote:
A lot of interesting stuff

Excellent post Auxmaulous. I have to admit when I first saw them that I did feel like the symbols of Cheliax as presented had a distinct National Socialist/fascist feel. I figured that it was kind of an subtle way to imply Cheliax's type of government (sort of how the Andoran Bird with Sword always brings the American Eagle to my mind).

What I didn't realize was that they were actual real-world symbols. This use of old Nazi symbols could be misconstrued, especially when put on tee shirts. I don't know what can be done about it at this point, except hope that they won't be taken out of context by someone.

Of course, considering the many possibly offensive kinds of tee shirts you can see at any big gathering these days, perhaps no one will notice.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
Selk wrote:

The pitfalls of symbolism I suppose. It's all been done before.

It's a great, thoughtful post, but I don't think Paizo is in dangerous waters. If it took this long for someone to point out the similarity (in a community that has more than a few history buffs), then we're probably safe.

However, your comparisons have sparked my imagination. The Chelaxian tableau has come alive. Thanks!

....

Now where's the dang Taldor T-shirt? I do hope it comes with an ascot.

I don't think Paizo is going to have crowds of people protesting outside their office any time soon also, to the best of my knowledge it has never been a "direct" banner supporting any kind of atrocity or regime. Panzers had the wolfhook painted on some them (depending on the Div), the modern satanic movement just took the symbolism from the Nazis.

It is powerful though...if the minds at Paizo wanted to create an totalitarian evil empire that will put most other rl or fantasy ones to shame then they have done a hell (heh) of a job with Cheliax.

Now bring on the heroes!


I understand your concern Aux. Wearing the shirt in the wrong situation could have people looking at you funny, or at worst assuming something about your political views and starting a confrontation.

Andoran

One night in Seattle, while waiting for a bus in the U-District around midnight, I saw a skinhead wearing an anti-fascist patch (a swastika inside a red circle with a slash) get jumped by four black guys who had mistaken him for a skinhead wearing a nazi patch.

I'd hate to see some poor Chelixian innocent get their ass beat because someone mistook them for Nazi.

Except, of course, that there are no innocent Chelix...

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Tales Subscriber
IconoclasticScream wrote:


I had meant to say something about this, too. See here, from the Anti-Defamation League's website (second row, last image).

You're telling me (not you, personally, IconoclasticScream) the Futhark rune for elk is a symbol for hate?

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Andrew Turner wrote:
You're telling me (not you, personally, IconoclasticScream) the Futhark rune for elk is a symbol for hate?

These Nazi idiots will do anything for attention.

Cheliax

Not that I would be concerned with "public opinion" (between my penchant for heavy-metal tees and my seal of baphomet amulet), but I wouldn't mind having a Cheliax T-shirt with the emblem a little less prominent; perhaps a solid coloured tee with the symbol on the shoulder? Personal taste, though I doubt that there will be enough interest to have 2 different styles of tees (though I seem to see our flag adorning more avatars than the other factions ... do we have an official head count yet as to who has more adherents?)


Obviously, the intention behind this symbol is innocent. However, it's questionable enough to cause potential problems in certain circles. I live in Oregon, and we do have occasional problems with white power skinheads starting s&%!. We also have some fairly violent non-racist skins who might mistake the Cheliax shirt for something it isn't, and I wouldn't want to be wearing this shirt when such a mistake was made. There are also some violent elements in the larger punk community here who think that ANY perceived skinhead symbol is reason for a fight, racist or not.

I used to tend bar at a place where non-racist skins would occasionally hang out, I've seen some bad fights go down and I've actually seen a guy get stabbed because some skins mistook one of his tattoos for something it wasn't (ironically, it was a Warhammer Imperial Eagle that looked a little too close to a Nazi eagle). It's going to be hard to explain that your shirt actually represents an imaginary country of devil binders to a guy who's looking for a fight.

What I'm talking about is an extreme situation, one that would maybe never even happen, and I'm not saying that all skinheads are going to try to beat up a gamer for this shirt because they're not. I do, however, think it might be a good idea to modify the emblem if it's going on a T-shirt. It's a great symbol, but it's easier to change it than deal with the potential (albeit remote) possibility of fallout.

Anyway, like Auxmaulous said, this probably isn't a serious issue. I just f#$*ing hate fights.


Hm... just what I need to strike fear into the hearts of my players. I'll have to get one of those some day, when I arrived at my more or less final weight.

Well, until then I have my "Gamemaster at work" Tee to carry me over.

Cheliax

veector wrote:

I understand your concern Aux. Wearing the shirt in the wrong situation could have people looking at you funny, or at worst assuming something about your political views and starting a confrontation.

Exactly. As much as I like the shirt and it's design, I couldn't wear something like this over here in germany.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Tales Subscriber

Well, if this is going to be a big issue, then perhaps something along the lines of a devil... say, an Erinyes?

>.>
<.<

:D

Cheliax

Auxmaulous wrote:
2nd SS Panzer Division - "Das Reich"

Speaking of history buffs ::

While many of the SS were no more than murderous brutes, political opportunists and/or depraved sycophants hiding in uniforms, Das Reich of the Waffen SS was thought of as one of the most capable of units in the German warmachine. They were considered as a first rate division by Russia and the Western Allies alike.

links

http://www.dasreich.ca/

http://www.dasreich.ca/unithistory.html

Let's just make *certain* that we don't put Cheliax Uber Allles on the backs of those shirts and I think we'll be fine.

The Infernal Empire is Eternal


baron arem heshvaun wrote:
Auxmaulous wrote:
2nd SS Panzer Division - "Das Reich"

Speaking of history buffs ::

While many of the SS were no more than murderous brutes, political opportunists and/or depraved sycophants hiding in uniforms, Das Reich of the Waffen SS was thought of as one of the most capable of units in the German warmachine. They were considered as a first rate division by Russia and the Western Allies alike.

Okay, and many people consider Varg Vikernes a first rate musician but that doesn't mean he isn't an A**hole.


while it's unfortunate that some fascist movements have perverted the meaning of traditional pagan symbols from more than a thousand years ago, this shirt could get you killed at some shows i've been to. wear it with caution and be prepared to get messed with.

Andoran

Andrew Turner wrote:
IconoclasticScream wrote:


I had meant to say something about this, too. See here, from the Anti-Defamation League's website (second row, last image).
You're telling me (not you, personally, IconoclasticScream) the Futhark rune for elk is a symbol for hate?

Yep, and it royally pisses me off. I used to wear a flat stone that I carved with the elhaz run on a necklace (unfortunately I lost it in Orlando). When I found out that a hate group was using it as their symbol, I was livid.

I seriously would love to start peace/equality group/coalition and co-opt the swastika (and other symbols) in an attempt to drown out the haters.

Paizo Employee Developer

Azzy wrote:
I seriously would love to start peace/equality group/coalition and co-opt the swastika (and other symbols) in an attempt to drown out the haters.

I don't think that would work, sadly. That one's gone. I can't imagine anyone's going to be able to reclaim it. A genocide of 6 million lives has the tendency to be irrevocable.

Andoran

yoda8myhead wrote:
Azzy wrote:
I seriously would love to start peace/equality group/coalition and co-opt the swastika (and other symbols) in an attempt to drown out the haters.
I don't think that would work, sadly. That one's gone. I can't imagine anyone's going to be able to reclaim it. A genocide of 6 million lives has the tendency to be irrevocable.

Agreed, for the most part. Get enough people, though, and it could work. At least I'm sure get quite a few Buddhist and Hindu behind it. :)

Personally, I'd love to see it work. I think it would be a serious blow to the hate groups to take their symbols away from them and reclaim them for a positive purpose.

Paizo Employee Developer

Azzy wrote:
Personally, I'd love to see it work. I think it would be a serious blow to the hate groups to take their symbols away from them and reclaim them for a positive purpose.

"Reclaiming" something generally only works for those doing the reclaiming. While many African-Americans have attempted to reclaim the N-word, the unfortunate result is that whites and other racial groups now feel that it's acceptable to say as well, since it appears to no longer have the same hate-filled connotation. The last thing we need is people putting swastikas everywhere because a bunch of Hindus decided to take it back.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

Folks,

We decided to change the design of the Cheliax flag to make it look _less_ like a swastika. I don't want to get into a political argument about this (obviously, Nazis are lame), except to say that we are aware of the similarities and have taken some steps to remedy it. The current design is our current solution.

If it becomes a serious problem, this is something we will revisit.

Right now, Asmodeus smiles upon the current design.

Andoran

baron arem heshvaun wrote:
Let's just make *certain* that we don't put Cheliax Uber Allles on the backs of those shirts and I think we'll be fine.

can we get jello biafra to write y'all's infernal anthem?

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Mike McArtor wrote:
*squee*

I wouldn't think Chelaxians "squee."

Andoran

Vic Wertz wrote:
Mike McArtor wrote:
*squee*
I wouldn't think Chelaxians "squee."

funny, my avatar on one of the social networks is JTHM...


Vic Wertz wrote:
Mike McArtor wrote:
*squee*
I wouldn't think Chelaxians "squee."

Well maybe not in public, or in front of the minions . . . but when no one's looking?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
KnightErrantJR wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
Mike McArtor wrote:
*squee*
I wouldn't think Chelaxians "squee."
Well maybe not in public, or in front of the minions . . . but when no one's looking?

Maybe right after a Cheliaxian noble uses a trapdoor in the throne room to drop some Andoran rebels into the infernal breeding pits below the castle, (Aka "Club Malbolge")...I think I can see a "squee" going on, maybe even a few giddy giggles.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game Subscriber
Auxmaulous wrote:
after a Cheliaxian noble uses a trapdoor in the throne room to drop some Andoran rebels into the infernal breeding pits below the castle, (Aka "Club Malbolge")

Hahahaha! Consider this idea pinched for my home game. I can't wait to make the "pulling the lever" motion...


Erik Mona wrote:


Right now, Asmodeus smiles upon the current design.

So does Joseph Goebbels. Heh.

Paizo Employee Developer

Immaculate Brutal Hammer wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:


Right now, Asmodeus smiles upon the current design.
So does Joseph Goebbels. Heh.

We get it. I thought this was put to bed already. Where's that dead horse when you need him?


Immaculate Brutal Hammer wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:


Right now, Asmodeus smiles upon the current design.
So does Joseph Goebbels. Heh.

As a German, and descendant of people who were harassed and persecuted by the Nazi regime because of their views, I say: Enough!

We get it, Nazis were bad. Really bad. Monsters. And yes, they stole mysticism from all over the world and violated it (the swastika was a symbol of good luck and well-being, originally).

But that doesn't mean that everything that even resembles one of the signs they used is forever unusable.


yoda8myhead wrote:


We get it. I thought this was put to bed already. Where's that dead horse when you need him?

Ja?


Dead Horse wrote:
yoda8myhead wrote:


We get it. I thought this was put to bed already. Where's that dead horse when you need him?
Ja?

Leg dich wieder hin.

Dämliche Totenbeschwörer.


Its too bad the Cheliax logo is not more in line with the Devil. Demon and blood worship and enjoyment.

We love blood.


Are the sizes of theses shirts similar to the Gray Maiden shirts?

Paizo Employee CEO

Jam412 wrote:
Are the sizes of theses shirts similar to the Gray Maiden shirts?

Yes, they were made by the same company.

-Lisa

Cheliax

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Do you know when larger sizes, such as 2X and 3X, may become available?

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

the Haunted Jester wrote:
Do you know when larger sizes, such as 2X and 3X, may become available?

We're still finalizing plans for Pathfinder Society shirts, but these particular designs probably won't be reprinted.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
the Haunted Jester wrote:
Do you know when larger sizes, such as 2X and 3X, may become available?
We're still finalizing plans for Pathfinder Society shirts, but these particular designs probably won't be reprinted.

Could the possibility exist that the factions shirts may be done away with for PFS gameplay? In terms of what they offer which is the free d20 role. I really would love a Cheliax faction shirt!!

Sczarni

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
the Haunted Jester wrote:
Do you know when larger sizes, such as 2X and 3X, may become available?
We're still finalizing plans for Pathfinder Society shirts, but these particular designs probably won't be reprinted.

Boo, I like these designs, I get to make fun of the Taldane in my area :) But the Cheliax and Osirion are very nice

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