Eidolons DO exist!

There has been much debate as to whether an eidolon is a real creature that exists before the summoner, or if it is simply some kind of "effect" that ceases to exist when the summoner dies (and never existed before the summoner brought it into being).

The Bestiary III finally answers that question with the Unfettered Eidolon.

I was going to post some of its introductory text, but I decided to refrain since the book isn't technically out yet. Just know that eidolons DO exist independently of their summoners as real creatures.

Please discuss your thoughts.

So?

Badass.

Also makes a dude I used to play with's Eidolon concept seem even weirder.

Groovy. That was my assumption. Hence the name "summoner." To summon something it has to first exist.

Badass.

Also makes a dude I used to play with's Eidolon concept seem even weirder.

Why? Was his eidolon the reincarnation of his dead sister or something?

Whatever the case, it's easy enough to say that the summoner is mistaken, or even mislead by the eidolon.

I rather enjoy treating the eidolon in the same fashion as a Soul Reaper's zanpakutou from Bleach myself. The nature of such beings is fuzzy (at times) even in that series, but it makes for some interesting dynamics when you keep some of the mystery. The summoner in my PbP has actually enjoyed exploring and wondering about what the connection is... it's been a not insignificant part of her evolving story actually.

Close, the Eidolon was EVERY SINGLE ONE of his dead ancestors. He described it as this sort of amalgam of writhing flesh and gnome faces and stuff.

Conceptually to me this means that whenever members of his family die, then just get sucked into the Eidolon condemned to live eternity at the beck and call of whichever summoner has control of them at the time.

Man, that would suck a lot. And would make for a cool adventure of trying to free the spirits of one's ancestors from this fate.

Rather than being the entire soul stuff of his ancestral tree (which would make it the target of every Daemon, Night Hag, Demon and other soul seeking creatures EVER),
You could just say that its made of fragments of their souls. That is, most of them is off in whatever afterlife they're meant to go to but a small part with attendant vague memories/emotions amalgamates with this 'familial soul'.

At least, that's how I would explain it. Of course the character might not know that and think he's dragging around all his ancestors with him.

Haha, yeah. The campaign where that particular summoner existed is no longer running though, so I don't have to worry about what amount of family-tree that thing is actually packing.

I just thought it was the strangest thing ever. Granted that was my first time every playing, so lots of things were novel and new.

Hey don't get me wrong, I think it's an awesome concept. Hell I may even use it for some of my games.

I always envisioned eidolons kind of like a Ministerial Magus or a magic user's partner from Negima.

My first and so far only Summoner's Eidolon started out in his backstory as an imaginary friend. It's interesting to think that his imagination lived on after he died.

For a split second I was hoping that the thread will be about how Ravingdork met an Eidolon while shopping at the market. Oh well.

For a split second I was hoping that the thread will be about how Ravingdork met an Eidolon while shopping at the market. Oh well.

The supermarket? Of course not! Everyone knows outsiders don't need to eat.

The eidolon lives across the street. ;P

For a split second I was hoping that the thread will be about how Ravingdork met an Eidolon while shopping at the market. Oh well.

He did! It happened at the market where he bought the Bestiary III!

Ugh. Just what we need. Another stupid, pointless Summoner nerf.

Now anyone with a high enough level Calling subschool spell can completely eliminate the primary class ability of a Summoner.

Ugh. Just what we need. Another stupid, pointless Summoner nerf.

Now anyone with a high enough level Calling subschool spell can completely eliminate the primary class ability of a Summoner.

Yeah, because calling an eidolon automatically gives you all of the other summoner class features like life link, shield ally, master's call, and so on...

Aren't those spells anyway?

Fozbek wrote:

Ugh. Just what we need. Another stupid, pointless Summoner nerf.

Now anyone with a high enough level Calling subschool spell can completely eliminate the primary class ability of a Summoner.

Yeah, because calling an eidolon automatically gives you all of the other summoner class features like life link, shield ally, master's call, and so on...

Not at all what I meant. I didn't say they could copy the Summoner's primary class ability, I said they could eliminate it.

By planar binding and killing a Summoner's Eidolon, that Eidolon is permanently dead and the Summoner completely loses his Eidolon class feature for basically the rest of the character's existence. Outsiders can only be resurrected with 9th level spells (true resurrection), and a Called outsider that is slain is slain permanently. The Summoner has no recompense against this.

No other class has anything even remotely resembling this kind of weakness. With no other class in the game can the BBEG be half a world away, hell, even on a private demiplane, cast a 5th level spell, and completely remove one of the PC's This Is The Reason I Play This Class abilities essentially irrevocably.

Aren't those spells anyway?

Nah, class features in those cases TOZ.

Fozbek wrote:

Ugh. Just what we need. Another stupid, pointless Summoner nerf.

Now anyone with a high enough level Calling subschool spell can completely eliminate the primary class ability of a Summoner.

Yeah, because calling an eidolon automatically gives you all of the other summoner class features like life link, shield ally, master's call, and so on...

Plus they can have out whenever they're not sleeping.

Aren't there spells that do exactly the same thing tho?

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Fozbek wrote:

Ugh. Just what we need. Another stupid, pointless Summoner nerf.

Now anyone with a high enough level Calling subschool spell can completely eliminate the primary class ability of a Summoner.

Yeah, because calling an eidolon automatically gives you all of the other summoner class features like life link, shield ally, master's call, and so on...

Not at all what I meant.

By planar binding and killing a Summoner's Eidolon, that Eidolon is permanently dead and the Summoner completely loses his Eidolon class feature for basically the rest of the character's existence. Outsiders can only be resurrected with 9th level spells (true resurrection), and a Called outsider that is slain is slain permanently. The Summoner has no recompense against this. No other class has anything even remotely resembling this kind of weakness.

This is a very interesting thought process, but i am not certain it would actually work as you envision.

How would it not?

Eidolons are Outsiders. If they are a separate entity, rather than an aspect of an entity (as the APG says they are), they can be Called. Called creatures actually die when they are slain (Summoned creatures just return from whence they came). Outsiders cannot be revived by anything short of true resurrection. You cannot summon a creature that no longer exists. The Summoner's inherent ability to heal its Eidolon from death only covers what happens when the Eidolon is summoned by the Summoner (which would immediately end when it's planar bound because it would be out of range of its Summoner).

Sounds like a lot of work compared to just killing the summoner.

Aren't there spells that do exactly the same thing tho?

Sacrifice your hp in place of it's as a free action, multiple times a round unlimited times per day? Not that i am aware. (life link)

How is one 3rd level spell (magic circle) and one 5th level spell (planar binding) "a lot of effort" when it can be done from anywhere at all? It's like an interplanar WoW Death Grip.

Everyone who's ever PvP'd in WoW knows that Death Grip is ten times as powerful as Charge. Why? Because instead of sending one person into the middle of the enemy team, you bring one person into the middle of your team.

That can't be done to Summoners, or any other PC, or any other PC class ability. And it shouldn't have been able to be done to Eidolons, either, since the rules already said Eidolons didn't exist separate from their Summoners. Now that rule's overturned and the flood gates are open.

If you were a PC party facing a powerful NPC Summoner, wouldn't you just love the chance to destroy its Eidolon separately, at a time of your choosing, in a place of your choosing, without having to fight the BBEG or any of his pals at the same time, knowing that when you kill the Eidolon, it stays dead forever?

How would it not?

Eidolons are Outsiders. If they are a separate entity, rather than an aspect of an entity (as the APG says they are), they can be Called. Called creatures actually die when they are slain (Summoned creatures just return from whence they came). Outsiders cannot be revived by anything short of true resurrection. You cannot summon a creature that no longer exists. The Summoner's inherent ability to heal its Eidolon from death only covers what happens when the Eidolon is summoned by the Summoner (which would immediately end when it's planar bound because it would be out of range of its Summoner).

For starters,(assuming it works like you say) you would need its truename to summon it specifically. It also is uneffected by the protection from evil/whatever alignment binding so can move out of it. The summoner can himself just use a spell to summon it again as a standard action the round after you try to bind it anyways. These are 3 things, and far from all, that spring to mind regarding this tactic.

For starters,(assuming it works like you say) you would need its truename to summon it specifically.

Not really a big deal if the Eidolon is a separate entity. It'd be no harder to find an Eidolon's true name than any other Outsider's true name for the purpose of planar binding.

It also is uneffected by the protection from evil/whatever alignment binding so can move out of it.

False. That only applies when the Summoner summons it using the 1 minute ritual.

The summoner can himself just use a spell to summon it again as a standard action the round after you try to bind it anyways.

Assuming the Summoner isn't asleep, of course. Time zones are fairly trivial to figure out.

Every summoner i have played with has gone for a ring of sustenence as one of their first magic items.(general personal statement) oh look, my odds of being awake are much higher.

Also, the immunity is not False, it is an aspect of the Eidolon being an Eidolon. Nowhere does it say anything like "only when summoned by the 1 minute ritual" (which is actually only mentioned in the following paragraph)

Nowhere does it say anything like "only when summoned by the 1 minute ritual" (which is actually only mentioned in the following paragraph)

Also nowhere does it say that it can move through a magic circle. A calling diagram would also trump the Eidolon rules anyway.

So... you make sure your eidolons neutral then?

Considering that we haven't seen the Unfettered Eidolon we don't know the mechanics or the history of the creature. So the method you suggest could work or it could not.

Maybe the U.E. only becomes a separate entity after it consumes or receives something from the Summoner? Like his soul maybe?

So... you make sure your eidolons neutral then?

Doesn't work. The inwards-focused version is an exclusive rather than an inclusive list. In other words, an inward-focused magic circle against evil contains any non-good creature, whereas an outwards-focused one only affects evil creatures.

Considering that we haven't seen the Unfettered Eidolon we don't know the mechanics or the history of the creature. So the method you suggest could work or it could not.

Maybe the U.E. only becomes a separate entity after it consumes or receives something from the Summoner? Like his soul maybe?

That's the hope, but RD didn't say anything like that, and neither did SKR. It would have been much more productive for SKR to say, "the Unfettered Eidolon is a special exception" or similar than, essentially, "meh, so what?".

The NPC wrote:

Considering that we haven't seen the Unfettered Eidolon we don't know the mechanics or the history of the creature. So the method you suggest could work or it could not.

Maybe the U.E. only becomes a separate entity after it consumes or receives something from the Summoner? Like his soul maybe?

That's the hope, but RD didn't say anything like that, and neither did SKR. It would have been much more productive for SKR to say, "the Unfettered Eidolon is a special exception" or similar than, essentially, "meh, so what?".

The unfettered eidolon comes about after an eidolon's connection to its summoner "is unnaturally severed, usually as a result of powerful magic or some bizarre death, freeing the eidolon upon the world." Needless to say, it is NOT a normal occurrence. EDIT: In fact, using planar binding might be a possible cause of this phenomenon. :P /edit

The monster stat block itself doesn't prove anything about an eidolon's prior existence on another plane. The proof comes from their text description, which makes several references to the fact that eidolons generally exist both before and after their time with the summoner in a "home realm." Said realm is described as "an otherworldly place" and that unfettered eidolons "become stranded on a plane alien to them...often going mad as their magic runes turn into burning painful scars upon their bodies."

* Some quoted portions have been paraphrased in order to maintain their context.

By planar binding and killing a Summoner's Eidolon, that Eidolon is permanently dead and the Summoner completely loses his Eidolon class feature for basically the rest of the character's existence. Outsiders can only be resurrected with 9th level spells (true resurrection), and a Called outsider that is slain is slain permanently. The Summoner has no recompense against this.

No other class has anything even remotely resembling this kind of weakness. With no other class in the game can the BBEG be half a world away, hell, even on a private demiplane, cast a 5th level spell, and completely remove one of the PC's This Is The Reason I Play This Class abilities essentially irrevocably.

Wouldn't the fact that the monster is called an 'Unfettered Eidolon' suggest the idea that a summoner is bound to their eidolon and the bond is strong enough to differentiate between a summoner's eidolon and an eidolon that is not shackled to a summoner? I wouldn't allow your interpretation as a GM, personally.

i think that the unfettered eidolon still sounds like there is a number of ways you can spin it.

Is the eidolon only seperate once the summoner is dead?
Does the eidolon exist before the summoner first summons it into being?
Are eidolons a portion of the summoners own soul, spun of into a separate being?
Can an eidolon be replaced? Traded?
If an eidolon is made from the summoner, can you resurect a summoner from their eidolon?
Can an eidolon survive a summoner's death?

Is the eidolon only separate once the summoner is dead?
See the last question. For it to be an unfettered eidolon, it likely takes a lot more than just killing the summoner.

Does the eidolon exist before the summoner first summons it into being?
Yes.

Are eidolons a portion of the summoners own soul, spun of into a separate being?
Not according to RAW. Reflavoring them as such should be perfectly fine in most instances, however.

Can an eidolon be replaced? Traded?
There are no rules governing this possibility. It is...up in the air--and up to your GM.

If an eidolon is made from the summoner, can you resurect a summoner from their eidolon?
No. They are considered two separate creatures.

Can an eidolon survive a summoner's death?
The eidolon is banished back to where it came from, so yes. That is the norm, in fact.

Back in playtest, IIRC, several people (including myself) pondered what would happen if an Eidolon was dismissed (or died) while under the effect of a bleed condition, poison effect, disease or the dying condition (below 0 hp, not stabilized). Would the eidolon, in it's native plane, go on taking damage, and then die *forever?*

It wasn't deemed worth worrying about then, so I imagine it's not worth worrying about now. It's a class feature. It shouldn't be harder than calling up a new Animal Companion to replace a permanantly slain Eidolon. It wasn't worth writing a rule to cover, so the GM can just make something up.

Indeed, since summoning a brand new Eidolon to replace the one that just died means that, technically, it's a whole new Eidolon, it might be a convenient way to get around the inability to re-assign Evolutions mid-level / duck the cost of Transmogrify and even select an Eidolon with a different base form after character generation. Just dismiss your sub-optimal quadruped Eidolon while he's bleeding and poisoned, and let him die in Eidolon-land. Summon your new flavor-of-the-month multi-armed biped Eidolon and continue on with life.

As for 'destroying a clas feature,' it's not like there weren't already plenty of ways to permanantly nuke that particular 'class feature,' like Trap the Soul, Imprisonment, Spheres of Annhilation, etc.

Burning a Wizard's spellbook is way easier.

Making a Paladin fall and lose *all* of his class abilities is perhaps a bit easier than it should be, as well. :)

I wouldn't worry about someone calling and killing my Eidolon if I was a Summoner, since learning to Summon an Eidolon was literally the first trick I ever learned. Might as well try to molecularly disassemble Dr. Manhattan.

Now, if he's clever enough to use Modify Memory and make my Summoner forget how to summon an Eidolon, *then* it's going to be a problem. :)

Back in playtest, IIRC, several people (including myself) pondered what would happen if an Eidolon was dismissed (or died) while under the effect of a bleed condition, poison effect, disease or the dying condition (below 0 hp, not stabilized). Would the eidolon, in it's native plane, go on taking damage, and then die *forever?*

It wasn't deemed worth worrying about then, so I imagine it's not worth worrying about now. It's a class feature. It shouldn't be harder than calling up a new Animal Companion to replace a permanantly slain Eidolon. It wasn't worth writing a rule to cover, so the GM can just make something up.

They did write a rule to cover it. According to the APG, Eidolons are only aspects of a greater creature. They don't exist as separate, fully functioning entities. Also, they covered the condition thing with the rules anyway.

Sorry, your post is founded on incorrect assertions.

They did write a rule to cover it. According to the APG, Eidolons are only aspects of a greater creature.

I do see the words 'aspect of the same creature' on page 55, second sentence of the first paragraph under Eidolon class ability.

But I don't see any of this other stuff.

They don't exist as separate, fully functioning entities. Also, they covered the condition thing with the rules anyway.

Where is this located? The condition thing, in particular, interests me. We've been house-ruling that conditions (and spells like bestow curse/bull's strength/haste/slow/ray of enfeeblement/blindness/etc.) 'go away' when an Eidolon is dismissed, banished or 'dies,' but I haven't seen a rule that supports that.

Aspects, by definition, aren't the actual creature. When the Aspect of Orcus is summoned by demon cultists, it is not Orcus himself. It's just a fragment of his power given temporary independence by magic.

The conditions thing is in the FAQ somewhere, I believe.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Fozbek wrote:

Ugh. Just what we need. Another stupid, pointless Summoner nerf.

Now anyone with a high enough level Calling subschool spell can completely eliminate the primary class ability of a Summoner.

Yeah, because calling an eidolon automatically gives you all of the other summoner class features like life link, shield ally, master's call, and so on...

Not at all what I meant. I didn't say they could copy the Summoner's primary class ability, I said they could eliminate it.

By planar binding and killing a Summoner's Eidolon, that Eidolon is permanently dead and the Summoner completely loses his Eidolon class feature for basically the rest of the character's existence. Outsiders can only be resurrected with 9th level spells (true resurrection), and a Called outsider that is slain is slain permanently. The Summoner has no recompense against this.

No other class has anything even remotely resembling this kind of weakness. With no other class in the game can the BBEG be half a world away, hell, even on a private demiplane, cast a 5th level spell, and completely remove one of the PC's This Is The Reason I Play This Class abilities essentially irrevocably.

In what kind of campaign would this actually be an issue, not in PFS and if your GM pulls this on you my guess is that he just doesnt like your summoner. If it actually becomes a problem it seems an easy houserule is in order, I'd not recommend anyone to play Pathfinder RAW anyway, even Paizo doesn't.

So what's first, the Eidolon or the Summoner?

Or, in Balazar's case, the Chicken, or the Egghead?

I thought the Summoner was since the beginning open to every possibility about the origin and existence of Eidolons. From an ancient and alien power who contracts with the Summoner, to an incarnated dream of her mind, and everything in between and beyond.

For those who worry about this making it so someone can eliminate the Eidolon from a specific summoner, a few thoughts occur.

First off, that sounds like an excellent plot line for low to mid level games. Remind me to use it at some point.

Secondly, I would argue that the Transmorgrify spell (also possibly the ability to alter evolutions when you level, and most definitely the evolutionist archetypes abilities), would represent a way to acquire a new Eidolon, in an interpretation where this is a valid choice. The reasoning behind this follows.

1. If an Eidolon possesses an independent existence, it is functionally the same as every other summonable creature, except for the specialized knowledge needed to summon it.
2. Summoning a creature in Pathfinder does not give you any control over that creatures abilities or appearance, particularly with regards to changing them. (This is to say, a person casting summon monster can not dictate that he wants all his devils to look like pit fiends unless they are pit fiends, and he also can not say that he wants his summoned devil to have swapped out feat X from the generic stat block for feat Y.)
3. Summoners (the character) therefore have no control over the abilities which a summoned eidolon will possess (excepting the same control that every summoning entity has; choosing what they summon to possess the abilities they desire).
4a. At any point a summoner simply adds new abilities to an eidolon, the eidolon is either the same entity, growing more powerful, or an alternate but very similar entity.
4b. At any point when a summoner radically changes the pre-existing abilities of his eidolon (such as gaining a level, casting transmorgrify, or using an archetype ability), he is necessarily summoning a new creature which more closely fits what he desires.

Wait!!! They DO Exist!?!?! I call shenanigans.....so now you're gonna tell us that wizards, aliens, bigfoot, peace on earth, and the lochness monster all exist too!!

By planar binding and killing a Summoner's Eidolon, that Eidolon is permanently dead and the Summoner completely loses his Eidolon class feature for basically the rest of the character's existence. Outsiders can only be resurrected with 9th level spells (true resurrection), and a Called outsider that is slain is slain permanently. The Summoner has no recompense against this.

Just out of curiosity, who are you worrying might actually do something like this to your PC that it's such a gamebreaking concern?

If you've got an overly antagonistic DM that would have an NPC perform an act that effectively renders 90% of your character's class abilities useless, then you might have bigger problems.

(Which isn't to say that a DM might not do something like this in the interest of fostering roleplay, to send the Eidonless Summoner off in search of some kind of new bonded Eidolon, which might be a very legitimate maneuver in more trusting DM/Player games.)