paizo.com Favorited Posts by zimmerwald1915paizo.com Favorited Posts by zimmerwald19152024-03-18T20:32:07Z2024-03-18T20:32:07ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: So, what's the good stuff?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43v5l&page=2?So-whats-the-good-stuff#802024-01-27T00:04:01Z2024-01-21T00:08:55Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Oliver von Spreckelsen wrote:</div><blockquote> The biggest problem of Council of Thieves is disappointed expections. The Players expect an AP where they are rebelling against the House of Thrune, but in the end they are the Batman of Westcrown. You only need to change the initial speech of Janiven Key and the players will know what to expect from this campaign. (Yes, there are some other problems, too, but that's the main one. And Second Darkness + Serpent Skull have this problem, too) </blockquote><p>You do more revolutionizing in winning autonomy (self-government) for the people of Westcrown than you do in any of the APs about overthrowing a government, simply because the options for replacing the overthrown governments are so determinedly conservative.Oliver von Spreckelsen wrote:The biggest problem of Council of Thieves is disappointed expections. The Players expect an AP where they are rebelling against the House of Thrune, but in the end they are the Batman of Westcrown. You only need to change the initial speech of Janiven Key and the players will know what to expect from this campaign. (Yes, there are some other problems, too, but that's the main one. And Second Darkness + Serpent Skull have this problem, too)
You do more...zimmerwald19152024-01-21T00:08:55ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1802024-01-12T17:22:11Z2024-01-11T15:46:56Z<p>First off, kudos to your players for their democratic instincts. Pushing against the strictures of the reactionary institution, the laws establishing it, and the power underlying it, is always correct. </p>
<p>That said, there are problems with expanding the Board of Governors, of both principle and logistics. </p>
<p>First, <i>The Kintargo Contract</i>—the adventure, not the document, though I've integrated the provision into <a href="https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#172" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">my exegesis of the document, <i>supra</i></a>—expressly provides that meetings of the Board of Governors must be plenary rather than by quorum. <i>See</i> <i>id.</i>, at •23 ("In order to officially ratify a lord-mayor of Kintargo, a majority (3 out of 5) vote <i>from a fully-staffed Board of Governors</i> must be recorded before no fewer than a dozen witnesses.") (emphasis added). That is, all members, rather than a majority of members, must be present to vote. The structure of the adventure strongly reinforces this notion. If the Board of Governors was permitted to meet by quorum, it would be possible to obtain the necessary majority by convening and obtaining the unanimous consent only of representatives of Houses Solstine, Mayhart, and Urvis, and to bar the counterrevolutionaries Melodia Delronge and Geoff Tanessen from attending. But this is not the case. "[T]he PCs <i>need</i> Melodia[ Delronge]'s cooperation only long enough to ratify Jilia[ Bainilus]'s appointment." <i>Id.</i>, at •20 (emphasis added); <i>see also</i>, <i>id.</i> ("With respect to the Kintargo Contract, this development [Carliss Mayhart's imprisonment making him unable to attend a meeting of the Board of Governors] is a disaster."). Geoff Tanessen likewise "need[s]... to join the Board of Governors." <i>Id.</i>, at •22. Unless the Kintargo Contract is amended, an expanded Board of Governors would still need to adhere to the plenary rule, making conventions of the Board all the more difficult with each member added. The plenary rule also means that expanding the Board does not accomplish what your players want it to accomplish: securing the Board from sabotage at a single point of failure. Whether the full plenum of the Board be five, fifteen, or fifty, one missing Governor still renders it unable to act. </p>
<p>Second, the provision for adding "a new [family] line" is pretty clearly intended to replace extinct lines rather than expanding the size of the Board, which moreover in various places appears limited to five members. <i>Id.</i>, at •18[1] ("<i>Had any of [the original five] family lines died out</i>, forming a valid Board of Governors would have required ratification of a new line by the Chelish government.") (emphasis added); <i>see also</i>, <i>id.</i>, at •7 (the "'Board of Governors'... is... defined as a group of five individuals"), 9 ("five family lines are required to reconvene the Board of Governors"), 16 ("five bloodlines [are] required to form the Board of Governors"... "'The Board of Governors is to consist of five people'"), 18 ("five family lines [are] required to reform the Board of Governors"). Further, as you recognize, naming a new line requires the assent of the Chelish government, which places a key institution of Ravounel outside the democratic control of its people and under the control of a foreign autocrat. </p>
<p>Third, the situation you fear, of "[w]hat happens the next time (in 150 years) when the people of Kintargo forgets to have a Board of Governors select their Lord-Mayor," is the situation prevailing at the start of the AP, and as you note, this gave the Chelish government a free hand in Ravounel.</p>
<p>I would propose that a solution to the problems of people forgetting that the Board of Governors exists, and of its undemocratic nature, would be to make all five Governor positions elective, from among all the members of the five families. Nowhere does <i>The Kintargo Contract</i> (the adventure or the document) provide that a Governor must be the head of his family, only a member. It is only circumstance and possibly tradition that "requires" the particular individuals enumerated in the adventure be the ones chosen to fill out the Board. The procedure for choosing a Governor from among each family is undefined, and can thus be determined by ordinary law rather than by amending the Kintargo Contract. That law can provide that the electorate for the Board of Governors be coextensive with the electorate for the Lord-Mayor of Kintargo/Domina of Ravounel (<i>e.g.</i>, all citizens of Kintargo, all citizens of Ravounel, or what have you), and that elections to the Board of Governors take place at the same time and in the same manner as elections of the Lord-Mayor/Domina. This electorate will presumably choose a slate of Governors they believe will ratify their choice of Lord-Mayor/Domina without trouble. And doing so at the same time as the Lord-Mayor/Domina election will reinforce the memory of the Board's existence. Finally, electing Governors means that the Board can be brought into the democratic governance of the country in whatever capacity rather than sidelined into a singular duty of ratifying the election of a Lord-Mayor/Domina. Its members might serve as judges, or on the Silver Council, or as government ministers.</p>
<p>A further security of the democracy and integrity of the Board might be to provide by law that each family must adopt a certain number of individuals to fill out its numbers. The most radical form of such a law might be that each family must adopt as members every citizen of Ravounel. Combined with the electoral law contemplated above, this makes every citizen of Ravounel a candidate for election to each of the five seats on the Board of Governors. And expanding each family to include every citizen of Ravounel would make it impossible for Cheliax to render any family extinct without killing every citizen of Ravounel—a thing which is functionally impossible. Not incidentally, depending on the prevailing inheritance law of Ravounel, such a law could also divide the five families' properties among the people. </p>
<p>[1] I'm citing this line preferentially to Odexidie's explanation because it is written in the objective voice of the author and not in the voice of a potentially unreliable character.</p>First off, kudos to your players for their democratic instincts. Pushing against the strictures of the reactionary institution, the laws establishing it, and the power underlying it, is always correct.
That said, there are problems with expanding the Board of Governors, of both principle and logistics.
First, The Kintargo Contract--the adventure, not the document, though I've integrated the provision into my exegesis of the document, supra--expressly provides that meetings of the Board of...zimmerwald19152024-01-11T15:46:56ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Paizo Blog: The Windsong Testaments: The Three Fears of Pharasmazimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sgzu&page=3?The-Windsong-Testaments-The-Three-Fears-of#1502024-01-11T15:36:31Z2024-01-10T21:10:47Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">The Raven Black wrote:</div><blockquote><p>I did not realize that was it. Excellent to know. I love APs where the PCs have a marked impact on the setting.</p>
<p>Thanks for the info. </blockquote><p>It wasn't, that's a <i>post hoc</i> rationalization. And it's still the Pactmasters making the reforms, with radicals <i>shaking</i> power rather than the people <i>taking</i> power. There has not yet been an AP where the latter happens.The Raven Black wrote:I did not realize that was it. Excellent to know. I love APs where the PCs have a marked impact on the setting.
Thanks for the info.
It wasn't, that's a post hoc rationalization. And it's still the Pactmasters making the reforms, with radicals shaking power rather than the people taking power. There has not yet been an AP where the latter happens.zimmerwald19152024-01-10T21:10:47ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: I wrote a symphony for Kintargo!zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43w4j?I-wrote-a-symphony-for-Kintargo#42024-01-08T06:31:01Z2024-01-05T13:54:34Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">WagnerSika wrote:</div><blockquote> Sounds awesome! Could you post the lyrics or a link to them? </blockquote><p>I second the motion.WagnerSika wrote:Sounds awesome! Could you post the lyrics or a link to them?
I second the motion.zimmerwald19152024-01-05T13:54:34ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Music of Golarion?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43x70?Music-of-Golarion#52024-01-08T06:44:28Z2024-01-05T13:54:06Z<p>Plugging <a href="https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43w4j?I-wrote-a-symphony-for-Kintargo#1" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">ttornikoski's symphony</a>.</p>Plugging ttornikoski's symphony.zimmerwald19152024-01-05T13:54:06ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Someone casted Delete spell to erase Drow's existencezimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43x94?Someone-casted-Delete-spell-to-erase-Drows#292024-02-16T23:31:55Z2024-01-04T15:36:45Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Aenigma wrote:</div><blockquote>If they are seriously concerned about not getting sued by Wizards of the Coast, simply removing the word "drow" and just calling them "dark elves" would be enough, just like they did with duergar, wouldn't it?</blockquote><p>Not legal advice (I'm sure Paizo got that in spades from either in-house or third-party counsel), but in a word, no. Filing the serial numbers off a work or element of a work does not in and of itself mean that the work or element is not infringing.Aenigma wrote:If they are seriously concerned about not getting sued by Wizards of the Coast, simply removing the word "drow" and just calling them "dark elves" would be enough, just like they did with duergar, wouldn't it?
Not legal advice (I'm sure Paizo got that in spades from either in-house or third-party counsel), but in a word, no. Filing the serial numbers off a work or element of a work does not in and of itself mean that the work or element is not infringing.zimmerwald19152024-01-04T15:36:45ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: Background questions!zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43x4r?Background-questions#22023-12-21T18:40:21Z2023-12-21T15:27:57Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Mightypion wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Hi,</p>
<p>I got a couple of questions:</p>
<p>—Is there a list listing the currently "legal" gods/demigods whatever in Cheliax?</p>
<p>—Is heresy against "legal" "gods", but gods who are not part of the infernal hierarchy punished in Cheliax? Meaning, I obviously get into problems with the government. But what if I vandalize a temple of father skinsaw with tasteful depictions of another assassination focused entity that is objectively much nicer to look at?</p>
<p>—Is there a list of what industries Kintargo has? My planned character is pretty much highly profit oriented, and would be planning to gain money by selling the Chelish military things that are expensive but which they dont actually need. </blockquote><p>Cheliax's religious law establishes one church and by default tolerates all others but reserves to the right to proscribe any other church at any time, for any length of time, for any reason. As of the opening of <i>Hell's Rebels</i>, the central government proscribed the Glorious Reclamation for sedition, obviously—but did not proscribe the Church of Iomedae as a whole. After the Glorious Reclamation's insurrection was put down, Queen Abrogail would dishonorably lure the leadership of Iomedae's mainstream church to their deaths by execution in Egorian, but would still not actually proscribe her worship. This was for nationalistic reasons: Iomedae was a Chelish subject in life, and her place in the heavens is a persistent source of patriotic pride. Barzillai Thrune in his capacity as Lord-Mayor of Kintargo promulgated several more proscriptions within his jurisdiction that are relevant to the campaign: of Calistria, Cayden Cailean, Desna, Milani, and Sarenrae. He also mandated that congregants at Shelyn's religious services register with the government, but did not proscribe her worship outright.
<p>The government will not intervene to protect a church that is not established, <i>per se</i>. However, the act of vandalism of another's property is generally unlawful, and you might find yourself arrested and charged if you engage in it, whatever the target. Furthermore, even if you are not, if the relevant church finds you out, it can sue you civilly for damages; the state will aid it in this aim by haling you into court, punishing you for contempt if you don't show up, and likely by favoring the institution over the individual in terms of its rules of procedure. </p>
<p>I address Ravounel's economic base, including Kintargo's manufacture (read: handicraft) and mercantile economy <a href="https://paizo.com/threads/rzs430fa?More-Faction-Interaction#2" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>Mightypion wrote:Hi,
I got a couple of questions:
--Is there a list listing the currently "legal" gods/demigods whatever in Cheliax?
--Is heresy against "legal" "gods", but gods who are not part of the infernal hierarchy punished in Cheliax? Meaning, I obviously get into problems with the government. But what if I vandalize a temple of father skinsaw with tasteful depictions of another assassination focused entity that is objectively much nicer to look at?
--Is there a list of what...zimmerwald19152023-12-21T15:27:57ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Magic Schools and Arcane Collegeszimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43wu4?Magic-Schools-and-Arcane-Colleges#62023-12-04T03:20:12Z2023-12-01T13:57:48Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Morhek wrote:</div><blockquote> Disappointed at the lack of inclusion of the El-Shelad Madrassa and the Academy of Scribes on the wiki, two relatively overlooked but still significant magical schools in Osirion. The Academy of Scribes has been training wizards for Osirion's bureaucracy for millennia, while the El-Shelad Madrassa teaches a blended mix of Osiriani and Keleshite traditions. They haven't gotten a lot of fleshing out, but they still exist. </blockquote><p>It's a wiki, thus necessarily understaffed and without clear project responsibilities and deadlines. Add them.Morhek wrote:Disappointed at the lack of inclusion of the El-Shelad Madrassa and the Academy of Scribes on the wiki, two relatively overlooked but still significant magical schools in Osirion. The Academy of Scribes has been training wizards for Osirion's bureaucracy for millennia, while the El-Shelad Madrassa teaches a blended mix of Osiriani and Keleshite traditions. They haven't gotten a lot of fleshing out, but they still exist.
It's a wiki, thus necessarily understaffed and without...zimmerwald19152023-12-01T13:57:48ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: What would you like to see for a 2e adventure path?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs4344o&page=8?What-would-you-like-to-see-for-a-2e-adventure#3532023-10-16T15:16:36Z2023-10-16T14:43:50Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Cori Marie wrote:</div><blockquote> Asmodeus is, specific portrayals of Asmodeus are stickier. </blockquote><p>What's "specific?" Paizo has never, to my knowledge, portrayed Asmodeus as a colossal serpent (though they have done that with Geryon).Cori Marie wrote:Asmodeus is, specific portrayals of Asmodeus are stickier.
What's "specific?" Paizo has never, to my knowledge, portrayed Asmodeus as a colossal serpent (though they have done that with Geryon).zimmerwald19152023-10-16T14:43:50ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Iblydoszimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43hrn&page=2?Iblydos#562023-09-12T14:46:46Z2023-09-08T17:30:03Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">The Raven Black wrote:</div><blockquote> What if the "Iblydian Alexander" was actually a proponent of the political and social theories you like, galvanizing true revolution in the old dusty empire and its colonies ? </blockquote><p>"The most extravagant idea that can be born in the head of a political thinker is to believe that it suffices for people to enter, weapons in hand, among a foreign people and expect to have its laws and constitution embraced. No one loves armed missionaries; the first lesson of nature and prudence is to repulse them as enemies."The Raven Black wrote:What if the "Iblydian Alexander" was actually a proponent of the political and social theories you like, galvanizing true revolution in the old dusty empire and its colonies ?
"The most extravagant idea that can be born in the head of a political thinker is to believe that it suffices for people to enter, weapons in hand, among a foreign people and expect to have its laws and constitution embraced. No one loves armed missionaries; the first lesson of nature and prudence...zimmerwald19152023-09-08T17:30:03ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Pathfinder Adventure Path Vol. 2?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43ttt?Pathfinder-Adventure-Path-Vol-2#42024-02-03T17:48:01Z2023-09-05T15:28:48Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">glass wrote:</div><blockquote> Number 200 is not divisible by three - it would be chapter 2 (or maybe 5 )of the individual AP, which would be an odd place to stop! </blockquote><p>Divisibility by 3 is no longer a concern, <i>Season of Ghosts</i> is four books long.glass wrote:Number 200 is not divisible by three - it would be chapter 2 (or maybe 5 )of the individual AP, which would be an odd place to stop!
Divisibility by 3 is no longer a concern, Season of Ghosts is four books long.zimmerwald19152023-09-05T15:28:48ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: So, what's the good stuff?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43v5l?So-whats-the-good-stuff#442023-09-04T12:16:21Z2023-09-01T23:51:22Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Lord Fyre wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">keftiu wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Lord Fyre wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">keftiu wrote:</div><blockquote> I think a conversation about Paizo’s best that doesn’t include Strength of Thousands isn’t a serious one, personally. </blockquote>I cannot say. I have very little familiarity with it.</blockquote>Then why say "you get a top Adventure Path List that would exclude <i>every single one</i> of the Adv Paths written for PF2 so far, imo" if you haven't... actually... read the works you're disparaging? </blockquote>In other news, one valid reason not to have read <b><a href="https://paizo.com/store/pathfinder/adventures/adventurePath/strengthOfThousands" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Strength of Thousands</a></b> is that I still hope to play in that campaign. <b>:)</b> </blockquote><p>Imagine being able to play Pathfinder at any point.Lord Fyre wrote:keftiu wrote: Lord Fyre wrote: keftiu wrote: I think a conversation about Paizo’s best that doesn’t include Strength of Thousands isn’t a serious one, personally.
I cannot say. I have very little familiarity with it.Then why say "you get a top Adventure Path List that would exclude every single one of the Adv Paths written for PF2 so far, imo" if you haven't... actually... read the works you're disparaging? In other news, one valid reason not to have read Strength of...zimmerwald19152023-09-01T23:51:22ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Golarion Timeline into Perspective via Earth Timlinezimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r1r1?Golarion-Timeline-into-Perspective-via-Earth#452023-09-01T15:28:54Z2023-09-01T05:21:10Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">PossibleCabbage wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">keftiu wrote:</div><blockquote> I assume they keep some kind of spooky goth cattle. </blockquote>Just the classic Highland Coo, but with emo hair. </blockquote><p><a href="https://d1dd4ethwnlwo2.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/emo-cows_1.jpg" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Moo</a>PossibleCabbage wrote:keftiu wrote: I assume they keep some kind of spooky goth cattle.
Just the classic Highland Coo, but with emo hair. Moozimmerwald19152023-09-01T05:21:10ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Golarion Timeline into Perspective via Earth Timlinezimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r1r1?Golarion-Timeline-into-Perspective-via-Earth#422023-09-01T15:28:34Z2023-09-01T01:19:38Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">keftiu wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">magnuskn wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Morhek wrote:</div><blockquote> I think if Paizo wanted to have Nazi-punching on Golarion, they already have a nation of racist authoritarian jackboots with an obsession about digging up artefacts in the sand - Cheliax. Fairly explicitly, Cheliax is explicitly there to be an easy go-to for uncomplicated and unambiguous bad guys. They don't need to go looking. </blockquote>Pfffft, they don't even wear black leather dusters. Well, their inquisitors might... </blockquote>I don’t think any ally of Nidal’s needs to worry about a black leather shortage. </blockquote><p>Does Nidal produce and finish the black leather, or does it import and finish it, or does it import it finished? In the last case, Nidal would make a poor supplier for <i>dusters</i>, but on the other hand Cheliax might be able to negotiate directly with its supplier.keftiu wrote:magnuskn wrote: Morhek wrote: I think if Paizo wanted to have Nazi-punching on Golarion, they already have a nation of racist authoritarian jackboots with an obsession about digging up artefacts in the sand - Cheliax. Fairly explicitly, Cheliax is explicitly there to be an easy go-to for uncomplicated and unambiguous bad guys. They don't need to go looking.
Pfffft, they don't even wear black leather dusters. Well, their inquisitors might... I don’t think any ally of Nidal’s...zimmerwald19152023-09-01T01:19:38ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Golarion Timeline into Perspective via Earth Timlinezimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r1r1?Golarion-Timeline-into-Perspective-via-Earth#292023-08-31T07:46:13Z2023-08-29T17:45:54Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">James Jacobs wrote:</div><blockquote>Doesn't so much ave to do with aeons blocking technological process as it does with there simply being better solutions in-world to solve problems.</blockquote><p>The trouble with this is that we don't actually see magic used to do what technology does - improve the productivity of labor so as to drive down the value of the capacity to labor or, what is a manifestation of the same thing, drive down the worker-hours required to produce a given good or provide a given service. We don't see, for instance, infernal engines competing with steam engines to drive jennies or looms, instead we see the predominance of handicraft production. We don't see <i>aiudara</i> or the Stone Road or other teleportation outcompeting caravan or seagoing trade (yet). The examples are myriad.
<p>To the extent magic is used in the labor process at all, it is employed by highly-skilled, nigh-exclusive classes of people who derive their high status from its exclusivity and their personal power from their exclusive skills. And it is this social/guild power of magicians (including clerics, druids, etc.) which must account for both the suppression of magic in general labor-saving applications and the suppression of mundane alternatives. Worth noting is that magical engines (including infernal engines and whatever the engine is that the Aspis Consortium uses on their ships, as well as <i>aiudara</i>) are as equally dependent as everything else magical on their creators' specialized knowledge and skill, and are difficult to reproduce even if the art of their creation is not outright lost with their creators. Compare machines making other machines, which is comparatively easy.</p>James Jacobs wrote:Doesn't so much ave to do with aeons blocking technological process as it does with there simply being better solutions in-world to solve problems.
The trouble with this is that we don't actually see magic used to do what technology does - improve the productivity of labor so as to drive down the value of the capacity to labor or, what is a manifestation of the same thing, drive down the worker-hours required to produce a given good or provide a given service. We don't...zimmerwald19152023-08-29T17:45:54ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: If each class was a city...zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43uxs?If-each-class-was-a-city#142023-08-17T01:05:35Z2023-08-16T23:16:13Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Bizzare Beasts Boozer wrote:</div><blockquote>I'm also clinically incapable of not mentioning rebel-loving, opera house-having Kintargo as a City of Bards.</blockquote><p>Oppara stands head and shoulders above both it and Pitax in this regard, not only because of its outsize population, but for have two bardic colleges to Kintargo's zero and Pitax's one.Bizzare Beasts Boozer wrote:I'm also clinically incapable of not mentioning rebel-loving, opera house-having Kintargo as a City of Bards.
Oppara stands head and shoulders above both it and Pitax in this regard, not only because of its outsize population, but for have two bardic colleges to Kintargo's zero and Pitax's one.zimmerwald19152023-08-16T23:16:13ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: What material really captures the feel of Golarion?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43uuf?What-material-really-captures-the-feel-of#242023-08-10T04:39:20Z2023-08-09T16:28:12Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Perpdepog wrote:</div><blockquote>I want a new wave of Pathfinder Tales novels so much. </blockquote><p>Missed this, but I second the motion.Perpdepog wrote:I want a new wave of Pathfinder Tales novels so much.
Missed this, but I second the motion.zimmerwald19152023-08-09T16:28:12ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: What material really captures the feel of Golarion?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43uuf?What-material-really-captures-the-feel-of#232023-08-09T14:54:45Z2023-08-09T13:12:17Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Rysky wrote:</div><blockquote>Elves of Golarion was a DND 3.5 book, not Pathfinder. Elves did not sleep in 3.5.</blockquote><p>Elves were equally immune to magic <i>sleep</i> effects in D&D3.5 and in PF1. Whether that immunity to a magical compulsion meant that they slept naturally was a separate matter, and left to the campaign setting to determine. Elves did not sleep in Forgotten Realms, but were always meant to sleep in Golarion.Rysky wrote:Elves of Golarion was a DND 3.5 book, not Pathfinder. Elves did not sleep in 3.5.
Elves were equally immune to magic sleep effects in D&D3.5 and in PF1. Whether that immunity to a magical compulsion meant that they slept naturally was a separate matter, and left to the campaign setting to determine. Elves did not sleep in Forgotten Realms, but were always meant to sleep in Golarion.zimmerwald19152023-08-09T13:12:17ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Which core deity will we lose?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43ur8&page=2?Which-core-deity-will-we-lose#662023-08-06T14:30:01Z2023-08-06T12:47:52Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Morhek wrote:</div><blockquote>I think this is probably a reason it won't be Asmodeus. Cheliax has had its narrative of decline. After losing Sargava and Ravounel and surviving an Iomedean revolt, the story going forward should be about it clawing back every ounce of power it can by any means necessary.</blockquote><p>Like, for instance, strengthening its own position in the Hellish hierarchy and perhaps gaining some freedom within its contractual strictures, while at the same time deepening its own damnation, by helping the Lord of the Eighth, the first true devil, or the Lord of the Fifth, the asura Quisling, assassinate the Lord of the Ninth, the usurper from Heaven?Morhek wrote:I think this is probably a reason it won't be Asmodeus. Cheliax has had its narrative of decline. After losing Sargava and Ravounel and surviving an Iomedean revolt, the story going forward should be about it clawing back every ounce of power it can by any means necessary.
Like, for instance, strengthening its own position in the Hellish hierarchy and perhaps gaining some freedom within its contractual strictures, while at the same time deepening its own damnation, by helping...zimmerwald19152023-08-06T12:47:52ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Which core deity will we lose?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43ur8&page=2?Which-core-deity-will-we-lose#562023-08-07T21:54:47Z2023-08-05T12:59:43Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">magnuskn wrote:</div><blockquote>Milani. . . among the group of mayor deities.</blockquote><p>I'd hate to see her sell out like this.magnuskn wrote:Milani. . . among the group of mayor deities.
I'd hate to see her sell out like this.zimmerwald19152023-08-05T12:59:43ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Which core deity will we lose?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43ur8?Which-core-deity-will-we-lose#312023-08-07T21:45:57Z2023-08-04T02:07:46Z<p>What <i>has</i> been happening in PFS these last couple years?</p>What has been happening in PFS these last couple years?zimmerwald19152023-08-04T02:07:46ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Sell me on the Dukes of Hell...zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43uq4?Sell-me-on-the-Dukes-of-Hell#72023-08-04T18:00:28Z2023-08-02T12:10:57Z<p>There is an infernal duke named after Thomas Malthus •spit•, and I will be forever grateful for that.</p>There is an infernal duke named after Thomas Malthus *spit*, and I will be forever grateful for that.zimmerwald19152023-08-02T12:10:57ZRe: Forums: Wrath of the Righteous: PF2 reprint of this AP?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42zk0?PF2-reprint-of-this-AP#252023-10-18T01:18:49Z2023-07-31T18:08:16Z<p>Who cast <i>mirror image</i> on the thread?</p>Who cast mirror image on the thread?zimmerwald19152023-07-31T18:08:16ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Poll: What part of iPathfinder/i do you want to know more about?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2hcsu&page=18?Poll-What-part-of-Pathfinder-do-you-want-to#8532023-07-29T15:20:00Z2023-07-28T14:01:47Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">BylethEisner wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Hao Jin from Fists of the Ruby Phoenix. Sorcerer 20/ Archmage 9.
</p>
Wants to obtain true immortality but cannot achieve it and she's "centuries" old.. How come she's not dead of old age? Cant seem to find her stats. </blockquote><p>No 1E stats either beyond that statline. She may be using a drug like the Sun Orchid Elixir, or she may have the Longevity mythic ability but not consider that "true" immortality for whatever reason (compare Sun Wukong gaining some manner of immortality short of "true" immortality three different ways).BylethEisner wrote:Hao Jin from Fists of the Ruby Phoenix. Sorcerer 20/ Archmage 9.
Wants to obtain true immortality but cannot achieve it and she's "centuries" old.. How come she's not dead of old age? Cant seem to find her stats.
No 1E stats either beyond that statline. She may be using a drug like the Sun Orchid Elixir, or she may have the Longevity mythic ability but not consider that "true" immortality for whatever reason (compare Sun Wukong gaining some manner of immortality short of...zimmerwald19152023-07-28T14:01:47ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1a&page=13?What-do-you-want-from-a-Lost-Omens-Old-Cheliax#6132023-07-24T15:22:20Z2023-07-23T23:26:40Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">zimmerwald1915 wrote:</div><blockquote>although, were I writing it today, I'd replace Geoff Tanessen in the General [Admiral] role with Cassius Sargaeta; replace Manticce Kaleekii in the Grand Diplomat role with Shensen, Shensen in the Marshal role with Tayacet Tiora, and Tayacet Tiora in the Warden role with Octavio Sabinus while leaving the Royal Enforcer role vacant</blockquote><p>Actually, scratch that. Replace Manticce Kaleekii in the Grand Diplomat role with Shensen, Shensen in the Marshal role with Jackdaw, and Belcara Jarvis in the Treasurer role with Mhelrem Gesteliel; Octavio Sabinus and Tayacet Tiora can stay Royal Enforcer and Warden respectively.zimmerwald1915 wrote:although, were I writing it today, I'd replace Geoff Tanessen in the General [Admiral] role with Cassius Sargaeta; replace Manticce Kaleekii in the Grand Diplomat role with Shensen, Shensen in the Marshal role with Tayacet Tiora, and Tayacet Tiora in the Warden role with Octavio Sabinus while leaving the Royal Enforcer role vacant
Actually, scratch that. Replace Manticce Kaleekii in the Grand Diplomat role with Shensen, Shensen in the Marshal role with Jackdaw, and...zimmerwald19152023-07-23T23:26:40ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1a&page=13?What-do-you-want-from-a-Lost-Omens-Old-Cheliax#6122023-12-28T15:48:56Z2023-07-23T21:45:13Z<p>Brief commentary on some peculiar features of the Ravounel constitution as laid out above: </p>
<p>Peers other than the Domina (who must appear to meetings in person and without whom no meeting of the Council of Peers may take place) being permitted to appear by proxy was a concession to the Vyreans, whose Kings and Queens must by law and custom maintain public anonymity. </p>
<p>The privilege of Acisazi to receive elven dignitaries and conclude treaties with elven states is a concession to its essentially condominium status. The Silver Council receiving Nidalese dignitaries and negotiating a treaty with that country was a matter of consent and delegation.</p>
<p>Suffrage in the Kintargo Assembly is most properly, as outlined in the Kintargo Contract, a privilege of citizens of Kintargo, but is extended to all citizens of Ravounel on an equal basis by the operation of Article IV of the Treaty of Confederation. The Assembly's agenda is set by the Silver Council, but it reserves the power to debate and amend bills (powers denied to Roman assemblies, for instance) as well as to elect high magistrates including the Domina and judges. Jury trial in criminal matters is guaranteed by the revolutionary decrees of the Silver Council.</p>
<p>Other important elections include those of low and middling (essentially up to regimental) militia officers. Higher and naval officers, and cabinet ministers are appointed by and responsible to the Council of Peers, but appointments must have the consent of the Silver Council. Members of that body accordingly tend to end up in the cabinet or as generals or admirals, but the cabinet and Silver Council are not coextensive. The enumerated list of departments comes from the list of Leadership Roles in Daigle, <i>et al.</i>, <i>Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Campaign</i>, at •200 - 04 (2013) - and ultimately from McCreary, <i>et al.</i>, <i>Pathfinder Adventure Path #32: Rivers Run Red</i>, at •54 - 62 (2010) - whose vacancies carry a penalty. For my view of a "who's who" of the cabinet, see <a href="https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42rr4?Updates-to-Ravounel-from-Age-of-Ashes-Lost#28" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">this post</a> (specifically the section "Provisional Government of Ravounel (4716+) (mechanically)" - although, were I writing it today, I'd replace Geoff Tanessen in the General [Admiral] role with Cassius Sargaeta; replace Manticce Kaleekii in the Grand Diplomat role with Shensen, Shensen in the Marshal role with Tayacet Tiora, and Tayacet Tiora in the Warden role with Octavio Sabinus while leaving the Royal Enforcer role vacant; and include Marquel Aulorian, Chuko, and Molly Mayapple on the Silver Council).</p>Brief commentary on some peculiar features of the Ravounel constitution as laid out above:
Peers other than the Domina (who must appear to meetings in person and without whom no meeting of the Council of Peers may take place) being permitted to appear by proxy was a concession to the Vyreans, whose Kings and Queens must by law and custom maintain public anonymity.
The privilege of Acisazi to receive elven dignitaries and conclude treaties with elven states is a concession to its essentially...zimmerwald19152023-07-23T21:45:13ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1a&page=13?What-do-you-want-from-a-Lost-Omens-Old-Cheliax#6112023-07-24T15:22:11Z2023-07-23T19:16:41Z<p>Finally among the texts of the Basic Law there is the <a href="https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslq&page=4?Breaking-the-Bones-of-Hell#171" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Treaty of Peace</a> with Cheliax (note however that the Domina is properly styled "Her Excellency" rather than "Her Ladyship"). </p>
<p>Breaking up the basic law into a fairly small number of constitutive texts, but greater than one, is relatively common - Sweden does this, for instance.</p>Finally among the texts of the Basic Law there is the Treaty of Peace with Cheliax (note however that the Domina is properly styled "Her Excellency" rather than "Her Ladyship").
Breaking up the basic law into a fairly small number of constitutive texts, but greater than one, is relatively common - Sweden does this, for instance.zimmerwald19152023-07-23T19:16:41ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1a&page=13?What-do-you-want-from-a-Lost-Omens-Old-Cheliax#6102023-07-24T15:22:08Z2023-07-23T18:48:21Z<p>And, similarly, the <a href="https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#173" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Treaty of Confederation</a> which confirms the unity of Ravounel, establishes many of its institutions, and extends such rights and privileges as may be determined by law (including the preexisting Kintargo Contract) equally to citizens. Included among the basic law may also be <a href="https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42rr4?Updates-to-Ravounel-from-Age-of-Ashes-Lost#33" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">revolutionary proclamations of the Silver Council prior to the conclusion of the said treaty</a> (but excepting the proposed draft of the Kintargo Contract, which is superseded by that set forth above, the Decree on Incorporation which is obviated by it, the Decree on the Establishment of the Council of Peers which is obviated by the Treaty of Confederation, and the Decree on the Archbarony of Cypress Point which is more in the vein of ordinary business).</p>And, similarly, the Treaty of Confederation which confirms the unity of Ravounel, establishes many of its institutions, and extends such rights and privileges as may be determined by law (including the preexisting Kintargo Contract) equally to citizens. Included among the basic law may also be revolutionary proclamations of the Silver Council prior to the conclusion of the said treaty (but excepting the proposed draft of the Kintargo Contract, which is superseded by that set forth above, the...zimmerwald19152023-07-23T18:48:21ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1732023-12-25T01:27:25Z2023-07-23T18:37:13Z<p>In a similar vein, a possible text of the agreement adhered to in furtherance of Mission 2: Uniting Ravounel (<i>see</i> <i>The Kintargo Contract</i>, at •27 - 28), that constitutes in essential form the state depicted in various Lost Omens texts (<i>e.g.</i>, the <i>World Guide</i>, <i>Legends</i>, <i>Tomorrow Must Burn</i>, <i>Firebrands</i>): </p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>In a similar vein, a possible text of the agreement adhered to in furtherance of Mission 2: Uniting Ravounel (see The Kintargo Contract, at *27 - 28), that constitutes in essential form the state depicted in various Lost Omens texts (e.g., the World Guide, Legends, Tomorrow Must Burn, Firebrands):
[Spoiler omitted]zimmerwald19152023-07-23T18:37:13ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1a&page=13?What-do-you-want-from-a-Lost-Omens-Old-Cheliax#6092023-07-24T15:22:06Z2023-07-23T16:41:52Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">zimmerwald1915 wrote:</div><blockquote>The constitution I have outlined above is susceptible to being written down. Maybe I'll do that one of these days.</blockquote><p>In furtherance of this aim, attached please find a possible text of the <a href="https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#172" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Kintargo Contract</a>, to which ultimately the basic law of Ravounel must conform while it at the Cheliax Covenant endure, but which establishes the basis for the unity of Ravounel and the basic town rights of the citizens of Kintargo and Vyre.zimmerwald1915 wrote:The constitution I have outlined above is susceptible to being written down. Maybe I'll do that one of these days.
In furtherance of this aim, attached please find a possible text of the Kintargo Contract, to which ultimately the basic law of Ravounel must conform while it at the Cheliax Covenant endure, but which establishes the basis for the unity of Ravounel and the basic town rights of the citizens of Kintargo and Vyre.zimmerwald19152023-07-23T16:41:52ZRe: Forums: Hell's Rebels: The Kintargo Contract (GM Reference)zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sslp&page=4?The-Kintargo-Contract#1722023-12-25T01:25:02Z2023-07-23T16:34:19Z<p>Possible text of the Kintargo Contract, according to the terms laid out in Groves, <i>Parthfinder Adventure Path #101: The Kintargo Contract</i>, at •7 (2015), styled after Infernal Contract #9485784.3728:7845,9888495 reproduced in full at Jacobs, <i>et al.</i>, <i>Pathfinder Adventure Path: Curse of the Crimson Throne, Anniversary Edition</i>, at •376 (2016): </p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>Possible text of the Kintargo Contract, according to the terms laid out in Groves, Parthfinder Adventure Path #101: The Kintargo Contract, at *7 (2015), styled after Infernal Contract #9485784.3728:7845,9888495 reproduced in full at Jacobs, et al., Pathfinder Adventure Path: Curse of the Crimson Throne, Anniversary Edition, at *376 (2016):
[Spoiler omitted]zimmerwald19152023-07-23T16:34:19ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1a&page=13?What-do-you-want-from-a-Lost-Omens-Old-Cheliax#6082023-07-24T15:22:03Z2023-07-18T18:46:10Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Beckett99 wrote:</div><blockquote> I was thinking about Nirmathas and was wondering is nirmathas even organized enough to meet the legal definition of a country cause the only formal position they have is the forest Marshall right? </blockquote><p>There is no "legal definition of a country," especially in a system of interstate anarchy without effective supranational institutions like Golarion's. A country is that which other countries recognize as their peer. Oprak at least has concluded treaties with, thus recognized, Nirmathas. I believe Korvosa has as well, as part of the process of settling its border with Nirmathas in the Bloodsworn Vale (part of this is now Korvosa's border with Oprak).Beckett99 wrote:I was thinking about Nirmathas and was wondering is nirmathas even organized enough to meet the legal definition of a country cause the only formal position they have is the forest Marshall right?
There is no "legal definition of a country," especially in a system of interstate anarchy without effective supranational institutions like Golarion's. A country is that which other countries recognize as their peer. Oprak at least has concluded treaties with, thus recognized,...zimmerwald19152023-07-18T18:46:10ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1a&page=13?What-do-you-want-from-a-Lost-Omens-Old-Cheliax#6062023-07-24T15:21:56Z2023-07-18T09:15:59Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">PossibleCabbage wrote:</div><blockquote>Probably because Cheliax regards it as a backwater, which is worth exploiting but not worth putting it on equal footing with the actual important regions of Cheliax. </blockquote><p>Equality only matters in the context of political representation, which <i>nobody</i> in Cheliax has due to it being an autocracy. Historically, Isger's special status has permitted it to act as an entrepot into Cheliax for Drumish capital and goods otherwise walled off by tariff. There was a brief (two-year?) period of attempted centralization after the Glorious Reclamation, that was put on indefinite hold after Tar-Baphon made his presence felt. Isger's special status currently means both that it both acts as a canary against Grafarian incursion for the Egorian government, and means they don't have to spend part of their budget defending it.PossibleCabbage wrote:Probably because Cheliax regards it as a backwater, which is worth exploiting but not worth putting it on equal footing with the actual important regions of Cheliax.
Equality only matters in the context of political representation, which nobody in Cheliax has due to it being an autocracy. Historically, Isger's special status has permitted it to act as an entrepot into Cheliax for Drumish capital and goods otherwise walled off by tariff. There was a brief (two-year?)...zimmerwald19152023-07-18T09:15:59ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1a&page=12?What-do-you-want-from-a-Lost-Omens-Old-Cheliax#5992023-07-24T15:21:02Z2023-07-16T22:23:13Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Elric200 wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Raven Black and Possible Cabbage, you two are confusing taxation vs. the Larger economy. Most of the Inner Sea economies rely on Mercantilism
</p>
but still collect taxes as I described above except for Andoran which has tax collectors like the IRS. I would think that most inner Sea governments are similar to pre-civil war England with the exception of Andoran and Katapesh </blockquote><p>Marcantilism and tax farming don't go together. To do mercantilism you need a relatively strong state and if you have that administrative apparatus you're going to use it to collect tax.Elric200 wrote:Raven Black and Possible Cabbage, you two are confusing taxation vs. the Larger economy. Most of the Inner Sea economies rely on Mercantilism
but still collect taxes as I described above except for Andoran which has tax collectors like the IRS. I would think that most inner Sea governments are similar to pre-civil war England with the exception of Andoran and Katapesh
Marcantilism and tax farming don't go together. To do mercantilism you need a relatively strong state and if...zimmerwald19152023-07-16T22:23:13ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1a&page=12?What-do-you-want-from-a-Lost-Omens-Old-Cheliax#5902023-07-24T15:20:40Z2023-07-15T00:07:08Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Beckett99 wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">zimmerwald1915 wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Beckett99 wrote:</div><blockquote> Given how long cheliax and ravounel were one country how so you think they dealt with mutual overlordship? Did they make new cadet houses and give them the lands or do you think they just seized them? </blockquote>I'm not sure what you mean by "mutual overlordship." Do you mean the problem of some Chelish subjects owning land in Ravounel, and some Ravounel citizens owning land in Cheliax? If so, this isn't actually a problem as long as they all pay their taxes to the state that controls the territory (the frontier is well-defined in the Kintargo Contract). </blockquote>My concern is that a noble in cheliax with holdings in ravounel could raise an army from their chelaxian lands and use the fact that they are also a ravounel Noble to use that army to fight ravounel because technically they are not invading but simply rebelling against their overlord. Or does the Kintargo contract have clauses that prevent that? </blockquote><p>It doesn't, as long as the hypothetical noble isn't an agent of Thrune or the Church of Asmodeus. Y'know what does prevent it? Eighty years of anti-noble Thrune policies that mean that armies in this era have been transformed into state levies (Ravounel will call theirs a citizen militia, no doubt - and this may even be more than an affectation!) and are no longer nested retinues, these having largely atrophied away.Beckett99 wrote:zimmerwald1915 wrote: Beckett99 wrote: Given how long cheliax and ravounel were one country how so you think they dealt with mutual overlordship? Did they make new cadet houses and give them the lands or do you think they just seized them?
I'm not sure what you mean by "mutual overlordship." Do you mean the problem of some Chelish subjects owning land in Ravounel, and some Ravounel citizens owning land in Cheliax? If so, this isn't actually a problem as long as they all pay...zimmerwald19152023-07-15T00:07:08ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1a&page=12?What-do-you-want-from-a-Lost-Omens-Old-Cheliax#5882023-07-24T15:20:36Z2023-07-14T23:08:31Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Beckett99 wrote:</div><blockquote> Given how long cheliax and ravounel were one country how so you think they dealt with mutual overlordship? Did they make new cadet houses and give them the lands or do you think they just seized them? </blockquote><p>I'm not sure what you mean by "mutual overlordship." Do you mean the problem of some Chelish subjects owning land in Ravounel, and some Ravounel citizens owning land in Cheliax? If so, this isn't actually a problem as long as they all pay their taxes to the state that controls the territory (the frontier is well-defined in the Kintargo Contract).Beckett99 wrote:Given how long cheliax and ravounel were one country how so you think they dealt with mutual overlordship? Did they make new cadet houses and give them the lands or do you think they just seized them?
I'm not sure what you mean by "mutual overlordship." Do you mean the problem of some Chelish subjects owning land in Ravounel, and some Ravounel citizens owning land in Cheliax? If so, this isn't actually a problem as long as they all pay their taxes to the state that controls...zimmerwald19152023-07-14T23:08:31ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1a&page=12?What-do-you-want-from-a-Lost-Omens-Old-Cheliax#5862023-07-24T15:20:28Z2023-07-14T17:15:20Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">The Raven Black wrote:</div><blockquote> Since the mere existence of Ravounel comes from the results of an AP, I expect it to get plot armor against the revolutionary trends of the Firebrands for quite some time.</blockquote><p>The trouble with that is that the state was created in a revolution that the [proto-]Firebrands made. You'd need to assume some manner of revolutionary betrayal, counter-revolution, or both.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">PossibleCabbage wrote:</div><blockquote> I do think if they want to follow up on a popular PF1 AP, "let's help Ravounel solve a problem" would be a good choice. </blockquote><p>They did that in Age of Ashes.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">The Raven Black wrote:</div><blockquote>Even Indiana Jones had to fight people that were not Nazis from time to time. </blockquote><p>Yeah, in the two worst movies :P
<p>(I can't speak to quality of the TV shows, or the prevalence of Nazis therein.)</p>The Raven Black wrote:Since the mere existence of Ravounel comes from the results of an AP, I expect it to get plot armor against the revolutionary trends of the Firebrands for quite some time.
The trouble with that is that the state was created in a revolution that the [proto-]Firebrands made. You'd need to assume some manner of revolutionary betrayal, counter-revolution, or both. PossibleCabbage wrote:I do think if they want to follow up on a popular PF1 AP, "let's help Ravounel solve a...zimmerwald19152023-07-14T17:15:20ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1a&page=12?What-do-you-want-from-a-Lost-Omens-Old-Cheliax#5842023-07-24T15:20:03Z2023-07-14T16:59:53Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Morhek wrote:</div><blockquote>Given the legacy of colonisation, putting a thumb in Cheliax's eye would be an enticing enough prospect, I imagine. But more practically, I'd guess Vidrian would prefer Cheliax to be more focussed on problems closer to home than settling old scores.</blockquote><p>But Vidrian doesn't need to commit to a mutual defense pact (with a power that needs Vidrian's military assistance but cannot provide Vidrian any military assistance of its own) to get that from Ravounel. It can get that from Ravounel's bare existence, and given the Cheliax Covenant it does not need to commit its military to securing Ravounel's bare existence. That's the point, it seems like Vidrian is giving up something for nothing.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>As for Ravounel's government, and noting both A.) this is a place where players are meant to determine what government it ends up with, and B.) that I haven't had the chance to read Firebrands yet, the fact that Ravounel is harkening back to Cheliax's pre-Thrune imperial past, and its flag notably includes an olive wreath, I'd guess Ravounel is probably going to end up with something like the Roman Senate and Assemblies ruling its affairs, with a mixture of democratic elections for the Assemblies and permanent Senators from the ruling families, with an elected or appointed Dominus/Domina. An elected Assembly especially sounds like something the Firebrands would champion the existence of, even if the more conservative members of Ravounel's society throw up the Senate as a bulwark against true radical reform.</blockquote><p>I'm pretty sure based on the lack of olives and the shape of the leaves that that's a laurel wreath (though the dispersion of leaves is too sparse for either olive or laurel). Ironic for a power that has never had and never will have a military victory, but then, maybe that's the point. In any event, Ravounel's flag owes most to <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Poland#/media/File:Flag_of_Poland_(with_coat_of_arms).svg" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Poland's</a>, design-wise (bicolor, shield, bird).
<p>As for institutions, the following are in evidence. First, the Dominate. <i>See</i> <i>Lost Omens World Guide</i>, at •104. This is clearly a chief executive of some kind, and it's occupied by "Jilia Bainilus, the former Lord-Mayor of Kintargo." <i>Id.</i> That "former" cannot mean she doesn't still hold the position. Not only is a replacement Lord-Mayor never mentioned, Kintargo must maintain the institutions of the Lord-Mayoralty and the Board of Governors for the Kintargo Contract to work. <i>See</i> <i>The Kintargo Contract</i>, at •7 ("only an officially appointed lord-mayor of Kintargo may grant House Thrune and its allies [] permission to enter [Ravounel] en masse. . . . if a properly ratified lord-mayor denies House Thrune permission to intercede, any direct military action against Kintargo or its associated holdings of Ravounel [] terminates the Cheliax Covenant."). This leaves basically three options: 1) the Dominate is the same institution as the Lord-Mayoralty under a different name; 2) the Lord-Mayoralty was subsumed into the Dominate, probably along with the Archduchy (the institution); or 3) the Lord-Mayoralty and the Dominate happen to be held by the same person (as a matter of coincidence or as a matter of necessity). I've been assuming option 3 (necessity variation), but a close reading of <i>The Kintargo Contract</i> suggests it might actually be option 1. <i>See</i> <i>id.</i>, at •5 (describing the Lord-Mayor as "the official leader of the city, and technically the leader of Ravounel," despite pre-revolutionary Ravounel being an archduchy led by an archduke); <i>see also</i> <i>Lost Omens World Guide</i>, at •104 ("The Silver Ravens. . . installed Lord-Mayor Bainilus as the leader of this new nation, and worked to unite various factions within Ravounel behind her. Upon attaining office, Lord-Mayor Bainilus chose the title 'Domina,' an old-fashioned honorific that had fallen into disuse after the Chelish Civil War.[1]"). The Lord-Mayor of Kintargo, thus also the Domina, is elected by the people of Kintargo, <i>see</i> <i>In Hell's Bright Shadow</i>, at •7, 8, and ratified by a Board of Governors consisting of five hereditary members. <i>See</i> <i>The Kintargo Contract</i>, at •7.</p>
<p>Second, the federal Council of Peers. <i>See</i> <i>Lost Omens World Guide</i>, at •104 - 05. This is composed of "factions' representatives," <i>id.</i>, the factions being: 1) "the wealthy families of Kintargo, who control the shipping concerns, established[2] industries, and domestic trade networks within the new country;" 2) "the aquatic elves of the Dismal Nitch;" 3) "the strix of the Ravounel Forest;" and 4) "the self-styled Kings and Queens of Vyre" who are the most independent-minded. The name of the council suggests that its members are meant to be the Domina's equals, even if she is the first among them.[3] As first among equals, Domina probably presides over meetings of the Council of Peers. The aquatic elves and strix are presumably represented by their Speaker and <i>Rokoa</i> respectively, chosen according to tradition. <i>See</i> Pett, <i>Dance of the Damned</i>, at •12 - 14 (2015); <i>The Kintargo Contract</i>, at •60 - 61, 70 - 72. "Power in Vyre goes to those who can seize and keep it," so presumably the Kings and Queens are those who have seized and hold the loyalty of their relevant Masks. <i>Dance of the Damned</i>, at •67. The Masks would determine their loyalties by internal deliberations and confirm them by election, but each King and Queens selects their Masks so it would take some significant upset for their loyalty to sour. <i>See</i> <i>id.</i>, at •66. There is a significant overlap between the Council of Peers as described in the <i>Lost Omens World Guide</i>, <i>supra</i>, and the signatories of the Kintargo Contract: the Council of Peers includes a representative of the Silver Council, <i>infra</i>, who do not appear among the signatories of the Kintargo Contract, and excludes Xerelilah who does. <i>C.f.</i> <i>The Kintargo Contract</i>, at •27 - 28; <i>see also</i> <i>Tomorrow Must Burn</i>, at •19, 24 (Xerelilah appears to have been elevated to the leadership of Cypress Point). If pressed, based on their respective positions as town leaders, I would put Xerelilah on the Council of Peers as representative of the North Plains, and Canton Jhaltero (<i>infra</i>), as representative of the Silver Council. Based on its small size, and the inclusion of the chief executive, I'm fairly certain that the Council of Peers is an executive council jointly exercising the executive power. </p>
<p>Third, the revolutionary Silver Council. This group embraces "the wealthy families of Kintargo," <i>supra</i>, but also committed Silver Raven partisans. It was initially formed at the initiative of Mialari Docur as a kind of <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_National_Committee" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">underground coordinating committee</a> of the Silver Raven party and transformed itself into the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_National_Government_(January_Uprising)" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">putative government</a> in the course of the uprising against Barzillai Thrune. <i>See</i> <i>Dance of the Damned</i>, at •6. "Who attends the Silver Council" initially "is left to the PCs," <i>id.</i>, but presumably it would include the PCs and any of their Allies up to that point: Blosodriette, Laria Longroad, Rexus Victocora, Cassius Sargaeta, Octavio Sabinus, Hetamon Haace, and/or Mialari Docur herself. <i>See</i> <i>In Hell's Bright Shadow</i>, at •51; Shel, <i>Pathfinder Adventure Path #98: Turn of the Torrent</i>, at •61 (2015); <i>Dance of the Damned</i>, at •57. Over the course of <i>Dance of the Damned</i> the list of Allies can expand to include Jilia Bainilus, Manticce Kaleekii, and Tayacet Tiora. <i>See</i> <i>Dance of the Damned</i>, at •57. And it can expand further during the uprising <i>A Song of Silver</i> to include Chuko, Molly Mayapple, Shensen, Jackdaw, and Strea Vestori. <i>See</i> Jacobs, <i>A Song of Silver</i>, at •6 - 7, 63 (2015). Given these families' dominance of the Silver Council as of the advent of the Lost Omens Campaign Setting, it also likely includes Eldonna Aulamaxa, Marquel Aulorian, Belcara Jarvis, Canton Jhaltero, and/or Sendi Vashnarstill. <i>See</i> <i>Dance of the Damned</i>, at •8 - 9; <i>see also</i> <i>Tomorrow Must Burn</i>, at •59 (the Silver Council is "a loose association of Ravounel's noble houses and the wealthiest power brokers in Kintargo"), 62 (Canton Jhaltero is a noted member of the Silver council); <i>but see</i> <i>Tomorrow Must Burn</i>, at •29, 88, and <i>passim</i> (no Aulamaxa, Aulorian, Jarvis, or Vashnarstill is noted to be a member of the Silver Council, "the Vashnarstills" failed to secure a monopoly in negotiations with the Silver Council, Mialari Docur is noted to have left the Silver Council). <i>Dance of the Damned</i> and <i>A Song of Silver</i> illustrate that membership in the Silver Council is self-selected (that is, selected by the PCs), and indeed "[m]any people serving upon [the Silver Council] consider their position to be a reward for backing the correct side." <i>Tomorrow Must Burn</i>, at •59. <i>Tomorrow Must Burn</i> excludes the Kings and Queens of Vyre from the Silver Council; describes Rarrnir, the new <i>Rokoa</i> of Tastikka, meeting with the Silver Council; and describes the elves of Acisazi as seeing themselves apart from Ravounel entirely. <i>See</i> <i>id.</i>, at •60, 61. This is probably a description of the Council of Peers by another name. That book is insistent that the Silver Council is a Kintargo municipal institution, <i>see</i>, <i>id.</i>, at •5, 25, 29, 57 (characterizing the Silver Council as "lead[ing] Kintargo," being "that city's rul[ers]," "the city's new leadership," and "the leaders of Kintargo"), but the Dominate illustrates that Kintargo municipal and Ravounel state institutions are highly conflated. Based on having directed the uprising against Barzillai Thrune, and thus needing to be in a position to issue proclamations prior to the reinstatement of Jilia Bainilus as Lord-Mayor, I imagine the Silver Council has appropriated to itself the legislative power or at least legislative initiative, including the power of the purse. <i>C.f.</i> <i>Turn of the Torrent</i>, at •6; <i>Dance of the Damned</i>, at •5 (Kintargo's Lord-Mayor possessed the power to levy taxes); <i>Tomorrow Must Burn</i>, at •25 (the Silver Council receives diplomats and conducts treaty negotiations), 29 (the Silver Council charters corporations and grants monopolies), 57 (the Silver Council can disburse funds from the state treasury), 63 (the Silver Council can expropriate property [here from the Church of Asmodeus] and dispose of state property). Its laws may need confirmation, by the popularly-elected Domina, or (following the Roman example you used) by an assembly of the citizens of Kintargo directly.</p>
<p>As an aside, it is not clear who appoints government/cabinet ministers (that is, the people responsible for spending the budgets and overseeing the employees of government departments), or to whom they report. The representative of the Silver Council on the Council of Peers may be accounted the prime minister, in which case he is responsible to the Silver Council that appoints him. The process of choosing other ministers may be consultative between him and the Domina, or may be a matter of appointment by the Council of Peers collectively (probably the latter). There may be a requirement to select or tradition of selecting government ministers from among the Silver Council. </p>
<p>Fourth, the Board of Governors. Having lapsed for the decades between the Civil War and Ravounel's independence, this body appears to have no function outside ratifying the election of Kintargo's Lord-Mayor (thus also the Domina). <i>See</i>, <i>The Kintargo Contract</i>, at •5. It consists of Melodia Delronge, Geoff Tanessen, Raenna Solstine, Carliss Mayhart, and Laria Longroad. <i>See</i>, <i>id.</i>, at •19 - 23. It would make a great deal of sense for this body to continue to be sidelined, nearly half composed as it is of outright counterrevolutionaries. <i>See</i> <i>id.</i> Geoff's membership on it does not seem to have protected the Tanessens in their wealth or influence—he may have been reduced in rank from Count to Baron or Archbaron. <i>See</i> <i>Tomorrow Must Burn</i>, at •40. Worth noting is that the only requirement for membership is apparently to be a member of the relevant family—not necessarily its head, though the current members are all family matriarchs and patriarchs. <i>See</i>, <i>The Kintargo Contract</i>, at •5. These Governors were chosen by the Silver Council (read: the <i>Hell's Rebels</i> PCs), and having appropriated that power to itself the Silver Council can presumably replace the Governors from time to time as long as the replacement comes from the same family.</p>
<p>Fifth, the courts. Kintargo's municipal courts and Ravounel's high court sit in the House of Truth and Clarity in Kintargo. <i>See</i>, <i>In Hell's Bright Shadow</i>, at •66; <i>Tomorrow Must Burn</i>, at •63. Nowhere is it stated whether these courts are jury or bench or mixed tribunals, or how judges if there are any are chosen. We may imagine elected judges, or judges appointed by the Domina, or juries selected by lot, or a combination of either appointed or elected judges with juries. A pure jury system is unlikely to my mind. Cheliax makes use of judges, <i>see</i> Moreland, <i> et al.</i>, <i>Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Cheliax, the Infernal Empire</i>, at •27 - 28 (2015), and Ravounel would have inherited its legal code. I could see Kintargo's judges being elected, given the citizens' enthusiasm for election. <i>See</i> <i>In Hell's Bright Shadow</i>, at •7, 8. This would actually be in line with your Roman example, with the citizens of Rome (Kintargo) electing as magistrates a consular executive (the Domina) and judicial praetors (judges), and also sitting as jurors from time to time. That we haven't been told of elections taking place is less of a barrier here than elsewhere: we're told precisely nothing about how judges are chosen, practically anywhere. The unelected Silver Council in this scheme is analogous to the unelected Senate, except being composed of ex-revolutionaries rather than ex-magistrates (notably the Senate possessed legislative initiative).</p>
<p>Sixth, the nobility. These appear to be formally charged with most local government (executive administration, legislative rulemaking, and judicial adjudication—all either directly or through appointees), but their exercise of their rights and duties is highly variable and has in several cases been appropriated by the people. Canton Jhaltero, for instance, is hands-on in Whiterock, but Aldonna Aulamaxa is laissez-faire with respect to Cypress Point and appears to have been largely superseded in her role by Xerelilah, who has leadership of the town by acclamation. <i>See</i> <i>Tomorrow Must Burn</i>, at •19, 24, 47; <i>see also</i> <i>Dance of the Damned</i>, at •back inside cover (but note that Canton Jhaltero is described as more hands-off here than he is portrayed in <i>Tomorrow Must Burn</i>). In her role, Xerelilah has overseen, among other things, the municipalization of important enterprises. <i>See</i> <i>Tomorrow Must Burn</i>, at •20; <i>see also</i> <i>In Hell's Bright Shadow</i>, at •29; <i>Turn of the Torrent</i>, at •6 (Kintargo's Lord-Mayor has the power to expropriate and distribute property). None of the loyal nobles other than Marquel Aulorian (who was not the head of his house at the time of Ravounel's independence) is ranked higher than Archbaron. <i>See</i> <i>Dance of the Damned</i>, at •8 - 9. The disloyal Counts and Countesses may have been reduced in rank as punishment, or in the case of the Sarinis, dispossessed entirely. </p>
<p>One would indeed think "an elected assembly. . . sounds like something the Firebrands would champion the existence of," <i>but they don't</i>. But going back to the Roman example, its assemblies weren't elected, but composed directly of all citizens who happened to show up (albeit these were segregated into voting blocs and blocs' votes were weighted by class). If the Kintargo assembly speculated about <i>supra</i> does in fact constitute the electorate for the Domina and justices, and does ratify laws, and if Kintargan citizenship has been extended to all of Ravounel's people, and if citizens' votes are not weighted by class, such an assembly would fill the democratic niche in Ravounel's constitution. Being directly composed of citizens it would obviate the need for an elected legislative chamber (and also explain why Silver Ravens don't run in legislative elections - the directly-democratic assembly obviates the need for them). Likewise, if a citizens' assembly is the electorate for justices, along with the Domina, and votes are not weighted by class, the courts and the Dominate become popular institutions. Such an assembly is feasible given Ravounel's small size (no point in Ravounel is more than about 200 miles from Kintargo), low population (<i>circa</i> 150 thousand, <i>supra</i>), and high rate of urbanization (<i>circa</i> 20 percent, <i>supra</i>). Even the population that lives outside Kintargo is mostly clustered around Yolubilis Harbor and the river below Whiterock. The populations that <i>aren't</i> include the aquatic elves and strix who live away west, but they are protected by the Council of Peers, and being able to swim and fly can travel to Kintargo more easily than most if they want to vote in the assembly (the aquatic elves at least probably do not, judging by the description <i>supra</i>). The truly excluded populations would be the giants and orcs of the Menador Mountains, the goblins of Cape Dis, and the small farmers of the upper Yolubilis and the North Plains, who all have much more of a problem travelling. The trouble is, outside of brief references to elections of the Lord-Mayor in <i>In Hell's Bright Shadow</i>, the existence of this assembly is almost wholly speculative; the stipulations that require it to be a democratic force (universal citizenship, equal suffrage) are entirely so. They can only be inferred by presuming that the Silver Ravens/Firebrands are pro-democracy, and from their failure despite this to advocate for more democracy in Ravounel's constitution.</p>
<p>The constitution I have outlined above is susceptible to being written down. Maybe I'll do that one of these days. </p>
<p>[1] It was also the name of one of Korvosa's most effective and centralizing monarchs.
<br />
[2] "Established" here means "state-chartered," that is to say, a corporation, <i>e.g.</i>, Sunset Imports. Not necessarily a joint-stock company.
<br />
[3] Making the Dominate an utter misnomer - it should be a Principate. Maybe this was also ironic?</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>Then again, if my group had ever gotten that far we were planning to overthrow the rich and establish the People's Republic of Ravounel. :P </blockquote><p>Good on your players. But "People's Republic" is a class-collaborationist nationalist slogan - hence I've gone with "social republic" as a description of a state with more or less socialist commitments (<i>i.e.</i>, to socializing (collectivizing, municipalizing, or nationalizing) property, all of which Ravounel does in canon; and to redistributing wealth). Based on the name of the chief executive, in canon the state is almost certainly styled the "Dominion of Ravounel."Morhek wrote:Given the legacy of colonisation, putting a thumb in Cheliax's eye would be an enticing enough prospect, I imagine. But more practically, I'd guess Vidrian would prefer Cheliax to be more focussed on problems closer to home than settling old scores.
But Vidrian doesn't need to commit to a mutual defense pact (with a power that needs Vidrian's military assistance but cannot provide Vidrian any military assistance of its own) to get that from Ravounel. It can get that from...zimmerwald19152023-07-14T16:59:53ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1a&page=12?What-do-you-want-from-a-Lost-Omens-Old-Cheliax#5782023-12-28T15:31:23Z2023-07-13T22:20:54Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Darth Game Master wrote:</div><blockquote>Granted in this case there sort of was, Firebrands. I'll have to check my PDF of that, don't remember if it went over the current government system of Ravounel in detail)</blockquote><p>It doesn't, really. It notes that the Silver Ravens'/Firebrands' activity in Ravounel is limited to "restoring damages from the rebellion, uplifting struggling communities, and bringing issues of unfairness, exploitation, or conspiracy to those in power, such as the Silver Council and Domina Jilia Bainilus," but does not note any agitation for democratization of Ravounel's institutions, or running candidates for [hypothetical] election. Beck <i>et al.</i>, <i>Pathfinder Lost Omens Firebrands</i>, at •19 (2023). It pays rather more attention to the Silver Ravens' work with other Firebrands, and outside Ravounel, and to Ravounel's foreign relations, than to Ravounel's domestic politics or institutions. <i>See</i> <i>id.</i>, at •32 - 33, 111.
<p>If Rexus Victocora's manifesto "The Dual Tyrannies of Crown and Currency," <i>see</i> <i>Firebrands</i>, at •6 - 7, is taken as representative of Silver Raven politics, one might well say of it <a href="https://marxists.architexturez.net/archive/marx/works/1891/06/29.htm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">what Engels said of the Erfurt Program</a>: "The political demands of the draft have one great fault. It lacks precisely what should have been said." Rexus calls his party "committed to destroying all vestiges of slavery. . . overthrowing dictators and uncaring monarchs. . . [and] defending those who are persecuted, especially the poor, ill, and all those who are tyrannized for their very personhood," and says it wants "a world where we have control over our own lives, where we are not subjected to the miseries of poverty, debt, prison, and other tools of tyrants." <i>Firebrands</i>, at •7. A more comprehensive list of social-republican demands (indeed, evidence of the transition of the revolutionary movement from radical to social democracy) could hardly have been asked of Paizo (who I would not expect under any circumstances to include, say, demands for the nationalizations of important lands and industries even if they occasionally portray cooperative enterprises). But it omits their logical prerequisite: the democratic republic. And the Silver Ravens, having the gratitude and the ear of the state, <i>see</i> <i>Firebrands</i>, at •19, have not the excuse of <a href="https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch04.htm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">circumstances demanding caution</a> over raising the demand for the democratic republic. Rexus might be presuming that Ravounel <i>is</i> a democratic republic (presumably its leaders are not "dictators" or "monarchs"), which speaks either to stunning omissions by the writers of every book to have broached the topic of Ravounel's institutions so far (the <i>World Guide</i>, <i>Legends</i>, <i>Firebrands</i>, <i>Tomorrow Must Burn</i>, &c.) or quite poor political judgment on Rexus's part. In one of two ways: if Ravounel <i>is not</i> a democratic republic, then the Silver Ravens are abdicating their duty as a social-democratic party by failing to advocate for the democratization of its institutions; if Ravounel <i>is</i> a democratic republic, the Silver Ravens are abdicating their duty as a social-democratic party by only "bringing issues. . . to those in power" rather than contesting for power themselves in elections and using that power to implement the listed social-republican demands.</p>
<p>As an aside, other than the limited legitimacy afforded by the recognition of another young state (which can be had from more established powers like Andoran, Osirion, and Absalom), what does Vidrian get out of its alliance with Ravounel?</p>Darth Game Master wrote:Granted in this case there sort of was, Firebrands. I'll have to check my PDF of that, don't remember if it went over the current government system of Ravounel in detail)
It doesn't, really. It notes that the Silver Ravens'/Firebrands' activity in Ravounel is limited to "restoring damages from the rebellion, uplifting struggling communities, and bringing issues of unfairness, exploitation, or conspiracy to those in power, such as the Silver Council and Domina Jilia...zimmerwald19152023-07-13T22:20:54ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1a&page=12?What-do-you-want-from-a-Lost-Omens-Old-Cheliax#5762023-07-24T15:19:08Z2023-07-13T21:36:37Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Temperans wrote:</div><blockquote>You are using the wrong dates. Golarion is around the 1700s or early-1800s. Possibly even mid-1800s given how many revolutions are taking place.</blockquote><p>Fair enough. I've used those comparators before (and contributed to the threads you're referring to), but used an earlier one here to give a slightly less huge population mismatch. And more importantly for using Portugal as a comparator, one that predates the bulk of the colonial empire. Seeing as how Ravounel doesn't have one.Temperans wrote:You are using the wrong dates. Golarion is around the 1700s or early-1800s. Possibly even mid-1800s given how many revolutions are taking place.
Fair enough. I've used those comparators before (and contributed to the threads you're referring to), but used an earlier one here to give a slightly less huge population mismatch. And more importantly for using Portugal as a comparator, one that predates the bulk of the colonial empire. Seeing as how Ravounel doesn't have one.zimmerwald19152023-07-13T21:36:37ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1a&page=12?What-do-you-want-from-a-Lost-Omens-Old-Cheliax#5752023-07-24T15:18:44Z2023-07-13T21:30:58Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Elric200 wrote:</div><blockquote> Zimmerwald it took the US 11 years to ratify the US Constitution and in 1789 Delaware was the first state to elect Representatives Remember the Senate was 2 Senators that were appointed by the state. So cut Ravounel a little Slack.</blockquote><p>It did not "take 11 years to ratify the US constitution." The Articles of Confederation (for a country of 2.4 million people as opposed to 150 thousand, 430 thousand square miles as opposed to 33 thousand, and thirteen federal subjects as opposed to five) were debated over the course of nineteen months and ratified in November 1777. The debate begin <i>immediately upon declaration of independence</i>, not waiting for years. The 1789 constitution was then debated and drafted over the course of five months in 1787 (May - September), was ratified by sufficient states in June 1788, and superseded the Articles (which had continued in force from 1777 and throughout this whole process) in 1789. Whiggishly claiming this whole process from 1777 to 1789 was part of the drafting of the 1789 constitution is absurd and counterfactual.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>Remember Ravounel is not a democratic or federal republic</blockquote><p>It is explicitly a confederation. <i>See</i> <i>Lost Omens World Guide</i>, at •96. And the fact that it is not a democratic republic is precisely the problem that will undermine it legitimacy-wise. As you say, Andoran (and Galt, and Vidrian with which Ravounel has a putative alliance much good it does either of them) are democratic republics, so contrary to your claim, there are certainly models. And even setting aside the <i>Lost Omens World Guide's</i> setting-forth of its citizens' demands for a social republic, and the logical need for a democratic republic to realize this demand, Ravounel has a both a democratic party and anarchists in evidence. <i>See</i> Frasier, <i>Pathfinder Adventure Path #97: In Hell's Bright Shadow</i>, at •8 (2015).
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>I could see Ravounel evolving into 2 city states each with its own form of government independent from the other but working together in foreign affairs. </blockquote><p>That is something of a failure state.Elric200 wrote:Zimmerwald it took the US 11 years to ratify the US Constitution and in 1789 Delaware was the first state to elect Representatives Remember the Senate was 2 Senators that were appointed by the state. So cut Ravounel a little Slack.
It did not "take 11 years to ratify the US constitution." The Articles of Confederation (for a country of 2.4 million people as opposed to 150 thousand, 430 thousand square miles as opposed to 33 thousand, and thirteen federal subjects as opposed to...zimmerwald19152023-07-13T21:30:58ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1a&page=12?What-do-you-want-from-a-Lost-Omens-Old-Cheliax#5712023-07-24T15:18:30Z2023-07-13T20:37:19Z<p>(To give those numbers further context, Ravounel's geopolitical position was compared upthread to Portugal's, and indeed the land area is similar: 33 thousand square miles of land area for Ravounel vs. 36 thousand for Portugal. But Portugal had about 1 to 1.1 million people in about 1400 (<a href="file:///C:/Users/troyl/Downloads/RCER440.pdf" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">page 12</a>), a year I think is a reasonable comparator, to Ravounel's 150 thousand. Lisbon had about <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisbon#Demographics" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">60 thousand people in 1400</a>, to Kingargo's 12 thousand, but Ravounel is significantly more urbanized than Portugal was. About 19 to 20 percent of Ravounel's people live in Kintargo and Vyre, while only about <a href="https://www.researchgate.net/figure/European-urbanization-rates-1300-1400-1500-1600-1700-1750-1800-1870_tbl1_241769295" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">4 to 5 percent of Portuguese lived in cities of 10,000 or more in 1400</a>.)</p>(To give those numbers further context, Ravounel's geopolitical position was compared upthread to Portugal's, and indeed the land area is similar: 33 thousand square miles of land area for Ravounel vs. 36 thousand for Portugal. But Portugal had about 1 to 1.1 million people in about 1400 (page 12), a year I think is a reasonable comparator, to Ravounel's 150 thousand. Lisbon had about 60 thousand people in 1400, to Kingargo's 12 thousand, but Ravounel is significantly more urbanized than...zimmerwald19152023-07-13T20:37:19ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1a&page=12?What-do-you-want-from-a-Lost-Omens-Old-Cheliax#5702023-12-28T15:29:43Z2023-07-13T19:24:27Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Elric200 wrote:</div><blockquote> Zimmerwald you asking a great deal of Ravounel to set up a standing government in less than 2 years.</blockquote><p>The state had been independent for two years by the initial run of setting books (independence 4017, Lost Omens Campaign Setting base year 4019). It has been four years since then, for a total of six. In all that time, Ravounel has had a government, and a functioning government. It has not, however, had a single <i>election</i>, either for the legislature (which is still the self-selected provisional revolutionary council) or the chief executive (who was last elected in the days of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting), or the remainder of the federal/executive council (who likewise persist from the Pathfinder Campaign Setting except for the <i>rokoa</i> of Tastikka), or most importantly for a constituent assembly to come up with a basic law. In fact it does not have a basic law at all, instead persisting under the "provisional" government. Drafting a basic law does not take six years. If anything, the two years that passed since 4017 is a reasonable timeframe. Pennsylvania adopted its first state (ex-colonial) constitution in September 1776, less than three months after the colonies' Declaration of Independence. France's Constitutional Committee took longer, a little over two years from 1789 to 1791, to come up with its first constitution. Russia's Congress of Soviets adopted a constitution in July 1918 - nine months after November 1917 and eighteen months after February 1917 - and that was after the election and dispersal of the constituent assembly. Chile's constituent assembly drafted the recently-rejected constitution in less than two years over 2021 - 22.
<p>Even the constitution of the People's Republic of China, for a gigantic country of over 500 million people and over 3.7 million square miles, took five years from the implementation of the provisional constitution in 1949 to be enacted in 1954. Ravounel covers a land area of about 33 thousand square miles,[1] and has a population of about 150 thousand souls.[2] It should not be taking longer.</p>
<p>[1] 355 land hexes • 93.53 square miles / hex.
<br />
[2] (355 land hexes + 110 water hexes) • 250 people / hex + 33,000 people in listed settlements—the 250 people / hex figure comes from <i>Rivers Run Red</i>; the listed settlements are Kintargo (11,800 => 12,000), Vyre (17,300), Cypress Point (1,850), Whiterock (1,500), Acisazi (146), and Tastikka (59).</p>Elric200 wrote:Zimmerwald you asking a great deal of Ravounel to set up a standing government in less than 2 years.
The state had been independent for two years by the initial run of setting books (independence 4017, Lost Omens Campaign Setting base year 4019). It has been four years since then, for a total of six. In all that time, Ravounel has had a government, and a functioning government. It has not, however, had a single election, either for the legislature (which is still the...zimmerwald19152023-07-13T19:24:27ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1a&page=12?What-do-you-want-from-a-Lost-Omens-Old-Cheliax#5682023-07-24T15:18:07Z2023-07-13T15:58:51Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Kasoh wrote:</div><blockquote><p>Ravounel also has the problem of needing the Council of Governors or whatever it is called of specific landed noble families to maintain the protections from Cheliax in the Kintargo Contract. Granted we don't know exactly how it works, but this board needs to ratify the Lord Mayor who can deny permission for Cheliax to deploy forces in Ravounel and if Cheliax does so, the entire Chelaxian Compact is voided.</p>
<p>That was the only reason the nation can exist at all because Cheliax cannot do much directly and Abrogail opted to negotiate instead.</p>
<p>Ravounel has a vested interest in making sure these lines have proper heirs and clean lines of inheritance, which will lead to problematic concerns when it comes time to take away their wealth and status when they are physical cornerstones of the entire nation's security against their diabolic neighbor to the south. Its also their biggest weakness as Cheliax could coerce or buy these people down the line as well. </blockquote><p>"A clear inheritance" is not necessarily "a big inheritance" or "an intact inheritance as counted from [some date]."
<p>Furthermore, we do know quite a bit about how the Board of Governors works, and the only property qualification it cares about is owning the right to sit on the Board of Governors. This is not tied to the ownership of any other property. Laria Longroad was able to stand for the Urvises on the basis of an ancestor's inheritance of the family's rights despite being a former slave and possessing not a sliver of the Urvis property. <i>See</i> <i>The Kintargo Contrat</i>, at •23. Likewise Carliss Mayhart was a pauper-aristocrat renting a small apartment in Villegre, all the Mayhart lands having been lost long ago. <i>See</i> <i>id.</i>, at •20. That the Delronges and Tanessens were permitted to retain their stuff was not a legalistic matter of property qualification, it was a political matter of needing their votes for a super-majority on the Board (not even a majority - this could have been had with Solstine, Mayhart, and Urvis support alone).</p>Kasoh wrote:Ravounel also has the problem of needing the Council of Governors or whatever it is called of specific landed noble families to maintain the protections from Cheliax in the Kintargo Contract. Granted we don't know exactly how it works, but this board needs to ratify the Lord Mayor who can deny permission for Cheliax to deploy forces in Ravounel and if Cheliax does so, the entire Chelaxian Compact is voided.
That was the only reason the nation can exist at all because Cheliax...zimmerwald19152023-07-13T15:58:51ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1a&page=12?What-do-you-want-from-a-Lost-Omens-Old-Cheliax#5662023-07-13T21:37:28Z2023-07-13T14:10:36Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">The Raven Black wrote:</div><blockquote>I guess the elven kingdoms would disagree.</blockquote><p>They probably would—and they would also disdain the notion that a social alignment towards Chaos implies a political constitution based on the democratic republic. Kyonin is an autocracy. <i>See</i> Thorne, <i>et al.</i>, <i>Pathfinder Lost Omens Legends</i>, at •106 - 07 (2020). Ironically, in attempting to align their elves away from Tolkien, Paizo has stumbled upon the quite Tolkienian concept of "<a href="https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/j-r-r-tolkien-from-a-letter-to-christopher-tolkien" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">anarchic monarchy</a>," the idea of an absolute but <i>laissez-faire</i> and personalist sovereign.The Raven Black wrote:I guess the elven kingdoms would disagree.
They probably would--and they would also disdain the notion that a social alignment towards Chaos implies a political constitution based on the democratic republic. Kyonin is an autocracy. See Thorne, et al., Pathfinder Lost Omens Legends, at *106 - 07 (2020). Ironically, in attempting to align their elves away from Tolkien, Paizo has stumbled upon the quite Tolkienian concept of "anarchic monarchy," the idea of an absolute but...zimmerwald19152023-07-13T14:10:36ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1a&page=12?What-do-you-want-from-a-Lost-Omens-Old-Cheliax#5652023-07-27T19:09:28Z2023-07-13T13:51:18Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Beckett99 wrote:</div><blockquote> What does being democratic have to do with a state's ability to operate competently? </blockquote><p>A new state must cultivate legitimacy, which is not merely won through "competent" good-government. The citizens of Ravounel broadly demand that "its wealth and prestige [] be shared more equitably" than they were under Cheliax, and "are determined to build Ravounel into a fairer and kinder society." Sutter <i>et al.</i>, <i>Pathfinder Lost Omens World Guide</i>, at •105 (2019). That is to say, the popular classes demand redistribution of wealth. But "the wealthy families of Kintargo [] control the shipping concerns, established industries, and domestic trade networks within the new country." <i>Id.</i>, at •104. In order to win the demand for a social republic, the popular classes must upend the power of the Kintargo bourgeoisie (I'm including here both "true" burghers like Kohl Draksitus, as well as bourgeois aristocrats on the <a href="https://marxists.architexturez.net/archive/marx/works/1858/letters/58_10_07.htm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">English model</a> like Houses Jhaltero and Jarvis; proper rentierism was largely broken by the counter-nobility policy of the Thrune government since the Chelish Civil War), which dominates the Silver Council. That cannot happen as long as membership in the Silver Council remains a privilege conferred by adherence to the revolutionary provisional government, and is not conferred by universal, equal, and direct suffrage in regular and frequent elections, with delegates subject to immediate recall and imperative mandates. <i>See</i> Lundeen, <i>et al.</i>, <i>Pathfinder Adventure Path #147: Tomorrow Must Burn</i>, at •59 (2019) (the Silver Council "was assembled during the rebellion that created Ravounel, replacing the city's former Court of Coin, and many people serving upon it consider their position to be a reward for backing the correct side."). And it cannot happen as long as every parochial interest is protected from democratic pressure in a federal Council of Peers. <i>See</i> <i>Lost Omens World Guide</i>, at •104 - 05. Andoran and Galt have enough problems instituting social reform even equipped with such singular and elected assemblies—Ravounel, without even elections and burdened with a federal council (and also the Board of Governors which by necessity contains open counterrevolutionaries Melodia Delronge and Geoff Tanessen (<i>see</i> Groves, <i>Pathfinder Adventure Path #101: The Kintargo Contract</i>, at •20, 22 (2015)), who are largely confirmed in their property <i>rights</i> even if "the Tanessen family's allegiance to House Thrune cost them dearly," <i>Tomorrow Must Burn</i>, at •40[1]), has no chance. In so many words, the road to legitimacy for Ravounel, grounded in a social republic, runs through the democratic republic. The longer the democratic republic (thus also the social republic) is denied the citizens, the less able the state will be to defend itself from foreign sabotage with popular support. The terms of the Cheliax Covenant and Kintargo Contract shall be no defense.
<p>[1] That the class red lines of the Kintargo bourgeoisie include protecting property <i>rights</i> generally (that is to say, eschewing redistribution) but not necessarily patronage of any particular enterprise can be seen from the case of House Vashnarstill, which was confirmed in its property rights but denied government subsidy for its business. <i>See</i> <i>Tomorrow Must Burn</i>, at •28 - 29.</p>Beckett99 wrote:What does being democratic have to do with a state's ability to operate competently?
A new state must cultivate legitimacy, which is not merely won through "competent" good-government. The citizens of Ravounel broadly demand that "its wealth and prestige [] be shared more equitably" than they were under Cheliax, and "are determined to build Ravounel into a fairer and kinder society." Sutter et al., Pathfinder Lost Omens World Guide, at *105 (2019). That is to say, the popular...zimmerwald19152023-07-13T13:51:18ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1a&page=12?What-do-you-want-from-a-Lost-Omens-Old-Cheliax#5552023-07-24T15:13:49Z2023-07-13T03:47:55Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Beckett99 wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Temperans wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Beckett99 wrote:</div><blockquote> How does being poorly organized but you on the level of galt. Galt was being manipulated by a conqueror worm. </blockquote><p>Galt is a great example, but fine the river kingdoms.
<p>The point remains: unorganized == bad government == bad country. Great for individuals, sometimes. </blockquote>The Nirmathi would object to that very strongly. </blockquote><p>The Nirmathi's opinions will deserve consideration when they don't have half their country annexed.
<p>But the problem with Ravounel's state isn't "disorganization," it's decentralization and especially an extreme democratic deficit.</p>Beckett99 wrote:Temperans wrote: Beckett99 wrote: How does being poorly organized but you on the level of galt. Galt was being manipulated by a conqueror worm.
Galt is a great example, but fine the river kingdoms. The point remains: unorganized == bad government == bad country. Great for individuals, sometimes. The Nirmathi would object to that very strongly. The Nirmathi's opinions will deserve consideration when they don't have half their country annexed. But the problem with Ravounel's...zimmerwald19152023-07-13T03:47:55ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: Sanctuary for reformed monsters?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43ue6?Sanctuary-for-reformed-monsters#172023-07-12T04:10:16Z2023-07-12T03:44:01Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Rysky wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">zimmerwald1915 wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">keftiu wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">zimmerwald1915 wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">keftiu wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">zimmerwald1915 wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Baronsquee wrote:</div><blockquote>I think that Oprak is a little too evil for my purposes.</blockquote>How so? The only evil they were ever confirmed to do is run their war economy on slave labor, and that has not continued. </blockquote>"All they did was support their war effort with slave labor" is not a sentiment expected from you, I have to admit. </blockquote>That was a past event, not a current one, is the point. If Oprak is currently too evil for Baronsquee, presumably it's because of something it's actually doing. </blockquote>That was <i>six years ago.</i> The people responsible are still in power. </blockquote>So are the Pactmasters, and Qadira's satrap, they get passes. </blockquote><p>Passes for what? You're the one who brought them up just now.
</p>
</blockquote><p>Running societies which are acceptable or which may be made acceptable through reform without a change in power. But if you want to restrict things to societies that have been mentioned in this thread, New Thassilon is ruled by a slaver and an ex-slaver.Rysky wrote:zimmerwald1915 wrote: keftiu wrote: zimmerwald1915 wrote: keftiu wrote: zimmerwald1915 wrote: Baronsquee wrote:I think that Oprak is a little too evil for my purposes.
How so? The only evil they were ever confirmed to do is run their war economy on slave labor, and that has not continued. "All they did was support their war effort with slave labor" is not a sentiment expected from you, I have to admit. That was a past event, not a current one, is the point. If Oprak is currently...zimmerwald19152023-07-12T03:44:01ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1a&page=11?What-do-you-want-from-a-Lost-Omens-Old-Cheliax#5412023-07-12T08:15:35Z2023-07-11T23:44:54Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">PossibleCabbage wrote:</div><blockquote>The question is can they produce anything that somebody in Arcadia wants. </blockquote><p>Highly doubtful, other than silver specie and maybe those crystals that could be found on Deepmar if extraction is ever started up again. Arcadia is generally more developed economically and technologically, and richer-resourced, than anywhere in Avistan.
<p>Ravounel is in a position to dominate the Varisian Run trade as middlemen and should have willing trade partners in Magnimar, Korvosa, and especially Vidrian (each a peer power one of which is a military and political ally), but isn't noted to be trading with any of them.</p>PossibleCabbage wrote:The question is can they produce anything that somebody in Arcadia wants.
Highly doubtful, other than silver specie and maybe those crystals that could be found on Deepmar if extraction is ever started up again. Arcadia is generally more developed economically and technologically, and richer-resourced, than anywhere in Avistan. Ravounel is in a position to dominate the Varisian Run trade as middlemen and should have willing trade partners in Magnimar, Korvosa, and...zimmerwald19152023-07-11T23:44:54ZRe: Forums/Lost Omens Campaign Setting: General Discussion: What do you want from a Lost Omens: Old Cheliax?zimmerwald1915https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o1a&page=11?What-do-you-want-from-a-Lost-Omens-Old-Cheliax#5392023-07-24T15:05:44Z2023-07-11T23:24:17Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Beckett99 wrote:</div><blockquote> Korvosa is bigger then kintargo </blockquote><p>Barely. And a bit more than half the population of Kintargo and Vyre combined.Beckett99 wrote:Korvosa is bigger then kintargo
Barely. And a bit more than half the population of Kintargo and Vyre combined.zimmerwald19152023-07-11T23:24:17Z