It would be nice if more high-level APs took the tack of explicitly following-on from earlier sets of APs, Adventures, or Modules, despite being produced months or years later. The vision of the six-part APs was to tell a cohesive story following the same characters from first to high level, even though the method of production (which prioritized cutting company overhead and especially management costs as much as possible) meant they necessarily all failed at it. Splitting the production timeline so that later-volume writers actually know the given circumstances they're working with could help.
To be honest, Vyre is such a despicable place, I could full understand the government of Ravounel not really wanting to have it.
Even from a perspective of disdain of Vyre's culture and fear of the threat it could pose, a confederated or federated or incorporated Vyre is still superior to an independent one or one subjected to a third power. A confederated or federated or incorporated Vyre is constrained in its acts and omissions somewhat by the demands of the state in ways an independent or foreign-dominated Vyre is not. It can't, for instance, lawfully or easily make war on the mainland or garner foreign allies with which to do so -- the threats it poses are smaller-scale and more easily fended off by deputized adventurers. Further, even if Vyre is not compelled to contribute to the [con]federal treasury, its production, trade, and tax revenues still benefit Ravounel society more by association than by arms-length transaction.
Ravounel is like Nirmathas, Vidrian, and Kyonin. It's its own nation. We generally don't use the word "state" for these areas, since that word implies belonging to a larger nation, and Ravounel is not part of a larger nation. Nor are Vidrian, Kyonin, or Nirmathas.
Technically, Vyre and its island would have political boundaries separate from Ravounel, in the same way they did in the pre-secesssion days when Cheliax ruled, but Ravounel is less interested in governing/ruling Vyre than Cheliax was and more interested in being allies and good neighbors than Chelaix was. Those boundaries are wholly within Ravounel though.
Including Vyre under the greater umbrella of all that is Ravounel is a convenience, but not intended to indicate one is fully in-charge of the other. Vyre is a free city inside of the nation of Cheliax.
Come again?
Typo. I meant to say "Vyre is a free city inside the nation of Ravounel."
Why would it…. why would Kintargo not have control of its shipping lanes, it’s a port city all its own.
All I ever see out of you dude is comments trying to delegitimize a nation that broke out of a corrupt fascist regime, and I’m not gonna lie it is more than a little offputting.
Vyre Island commands the access from the Yolubilis River estuary to Nisroch Bay. Fleets based in Vyre would have command of the sea and would find blockading Kintargo and raiding its commerce a trivial matter. Dance of the Damned and The Kintargo Contract explicitly highlight this possibility, and the reciprocal possibility of Ravounel denying sea access to hostile fleets through control of Vyre Island, as reasons it is critical to bring Vyre onside. That Cheliax (by virtue of its sovereignty over Vyre) and/or third parties (by virtue of Vyre's independence from Ravounel) can freely base fleets in Vyre should be the cause of many sleepless nights in Kintargo.
And I would have quite liked to see Ravounel set up to be a bastion of freedom and democracy if it couldn't be a redoubt from which to revolutionize Cheliax. But every decision made with respect to it has undermined its freedom (by undermining the power of the central government to defend its territory) and strangled its democracy in the cradle (by tolerating imperial loyalists and counterrevolutionaries not only in their possession of large estates but also in the seats of government; by making Silver Council seats a matter of patronage rather than election; by failing to hold elections at all never mind frequently; by failing to enact land reform when enacting emancipation; &c.). It is not a concession to fascism to point out manifest failures by its enemies.
Zimmer I think you're getting hung up on different definitions of state. Paizo is a United States based company, and in the US the term state generally refers to one of fifty regional governing bodies that are part of a larger national governing body. Paizo doesn't like to use state to refer to a nation, as in their general audience it would imply that it was part of a larger nation and not a nation on it's own.
I did in fact read Mr. Jacobs's post. And I came away not believing what it said. Because it he did in fact conceptualize "state" as being "self-governing federal or confederal subdivision," he could have said as much when asked "is Vyre independent [sovereign, with bespoke foreign and fiscal policies] or merely autonomous [self-governing]" within a federation or confederation. Because autonomous federal subdivision describes American states well enough.
Instead the comparison we got was to Magnimar and Korvosa, which are obviously independent and sovereign in themselves (and in pretty flagrant competition) rather than part of a confederation or federation to which sovereign powers are delegated.
And @VerBeeker, because apparently pressing the issue is productive of revelations like Vyre still being a part of Cheliax, which deprives Ravounel of "its" biggest city as well as of control of the shipping lanes out of Kintargo.
Ravounel is like Nirmathas, Vidrian, and Kyonin. It's its own nation. We generally don't use the word "state" for these areas, since that word implies belonging to a larger nation, and Ravounel is not part of a larger nation. Nor are Vidrian, Kyonin, or Nirmathas.
Technically, Vyre and its island would have political boundaries separate from Ravounel, in the same way they did in the pre-secesssion days when Cheliax ruled, but Ravounel is less interested in governing/ruling Vyre than Cheliax was and more interested in being allies and good neighbors than Chelaix was. Those boundaries are wholly within Ravounel though.
Including Vyre under the greater umbrella of all that is Ravounel is a convenience, but not intended to indicate one is fully in-charge of the other. Vyre is a free city inside of the nation of Cheliax.
the city of Vyre, which is, as it turns out, in Ravounel.
Is it? In various publications -- e.g., Mona et al., Lost Omens: World Guide, at *105 (2019); Lundeen et al., Pathfinder Adventure Path #147: Tomorrow Must Burn, at *59-60 (2019) -- Vyre is said to be independent (read: sovereign, possessed of inter alia its own foreign policy and tariff policy) as opposed to merely autonomous (read: self-governing). Is this in error, or overstated?
As for War of Immortals implications, Arshea getting an article in this AP volume does not bode well for Shelyn.
It is, in fact, PART of the plan to "build Ravounel into a fairer and kinder society" by creating a new world-class production that will put Ravounel on the art-scene's center stage as its own thing rather than a subset of Cheliax for the first time.
That sort of thing doesn't happen overnight.
Will any of the following come up in the course of play, or as memoranda to GMs?
1. Ownership of the Opera House (i.e., is it a public institution, a worker cooperative, a publicly-traded corporation, or private property?);
2. Organization of (i.e., wall-to-wall, by trade, not at all) and bargaining with (i.e., collectively or individually) Opera House employees;
3. Organization of and possible competition with established librettists and composers;
4. Management of the Opera House (i.e., by appointees of its owners and/or of the state, by elected delegates).
but it's presented mostly through the lens of "Your PCs are putting on an opera and you need to do a lot of gladhanding, sponsor-chasing, and other sorts of social encounter stuff to make sure the opera is well funded, advertised, supported, and has the resources it will need."
Which is telling of just how little wherewithal the confederal or communal governments have to sponsor or endow artistic endeavors from the public treasury, and just how completely the hope as of 4719 that its people might "build Ravounel into a fairer and kinder society," Sutter et al., Pathfinder Lost Omens World Guide, at *105 (2019), has been betrayed.
Drat and botheration -- a second Adventure Path visit to Lost Omens Campaign Setting-era Ravounel and it's another that will focus not a whit on institutions or politics. I should probably count my blessings that at least it won't re-present the canned stuff from the Campaign Setting book as if five years hadn't passed since the campaign setting changeover and as if almost a decade hadn't passed since the first AP visit.
Cheliax has long been a supporter of slavery and recently adjusted its posture to indentured servitude. So, not great.
Cheliax's policy at the moment is much more in line with post-emancipation Russian policy, fostering debt peonage and other systems of economic dependence of former slaves upon former slavemasters and on the bourgeoisie by eschewing land reform or state aid to former slaves. Its only similarity to a system of indentured servitude is relying on economic pressure rather than conscription to encourage enlistment into the army (and it is only similar inasmuch as that enlistment takes the form of a long-term contract).
Re: Who I think the last two safe will be, I'd put money on Abadar being safe (badum tsh) because if he dies I'm fairly sure the world's economy will just break. And I think Gozreh will be safe because how do you kill the wind? The sea? And why? What sort of motive do they have? (Unless the culprit is Team Magma.) But then they are called the Godsrain Prophecies...
Regarding Abadar, the current year on Earth in the setting is 1929.
As if crises of overproduction were aberrations that needed special pleading to be explained, and not a perfectly normal part of capitalism.
They were in a nation full of state censors and book burners what else could they do with the knowledge they collected publish it and get themselves executed?
Whether the Sacred Order's praxis was justified by their circumstances is beside the point -- the point is whether it depended on their Iroran-ness, that is, whether they needed to be Irorans to do it.
- The Iroran Sacred Order of Archivists defend written history from revisionists and propagandists (including those glory-seeking Pathfinders!), and were a lynchpin of Hell's Rebels.
Eh. They all died in the backstory, and their being Iroran specifically wasn't all that foundational to their praxis (hoarding and cataloguing objects in a secret dungeon).
The biggest problem of Council of Thieves is disappointed expections. The Players expect an AP where they are rebelling against the House of Thrune, but in the end they are the Batman of Westcrown. You only need to change the initial speech of Janiven Key and the players will know what to expect from this campaign. (Yes, there are some other problems, too, but that's the main one. And Second Darkness + Serpent Skull have this problem, too)
You do more revolutionizing in winning autonomy (self-government) for the people of Westcrown than you do in any of the APs about overthrowing a government, simply because the options for replacing the overthrown governments are so determinedly conservative.
First off, kudos to your players for their democratic instincts. Pushing against the strictures of the reactionary institution, the laws establishing it, and the power underlying it, is always correct.
That said, there are problems with expanding the Board of Governors, of both principle and logistics.
First, The Kintargo Contract--the adventure, not the document, though I've integrated the provision into my exegesis of the document, supra--expressly provides that meetings of the Board of Governors must be plenary rather than by quorum. Seeid., at *23 ("In order to officially ratify a lord-mayor of Kintargo, a majority (3 out of 5) vote from a fully-staffed Board of Governors must be recorded before no fewer than a dozen witnesses.") (emphasis added). That is, all members, rather than a majority of members, must be present to vote. The structure of the adventure strongly reinforces this notion. If the Board of Governors was permitted to meet by quorum, it would be possible to obtain the necessary majority by convening and obtaining the unanimous consent only of representatives of Houses Solstine, Mayhart, and Urvis, and to bar the counterrevolutionaries Melodia Delronge and Geoff Tanessen from attending. But this is not the case. "[T]he PCs need Melodia[ Delronge]'s cooperation only long enough to ratify Jilia[ Bainilus]'s appointment." Id., at *20 (emphasis added); see also, id. ("With respect to the Kintargo Contract, this development [Carliss Mayhart's imprisonment making him unable to attend a meeting of the Board of Governors] is a disaster."). Geoff Tanessen likewise "need[s]... to join the Board of Governors." Id., at *22. Unless the Kintargo Contract is amended, an expanded Board of Governors would still need to adhere to the plenary rule, making conventions of the Board all the more difficult with each member added. The plenary rule also means that expanding the Board does not accomplish what your players want it to accomplish: securing the Board from sabotage at a single point of failure. Whether the full plenum of the Board be five, fifteen, or fifty, one missing Governor still renders it unable to act.
Second, the provision for adding "a new [family] line" is pretty clearly intended to replace extinct lines rather than expanding the size of the Board, which moreover in various places appears limited to five members. Id., at *18[1] ("Had any of [the original five] family lines died out, forming a valid Board of Governors would have required ratification of a new line by the Chelish government.") (emphasis added); see also, id., at *7 (the "'Board of Governors'... is... defined as a group of five individuals"), 9 ("five family lines are required to reconvene the Board of Governors"), 16 ("five bloodlines [are] required to form the Board of Governors"... "'The Board of Governors is to consist of five people'"), 18 ("five family lines [are] required to reform the Board of Governors"). Further, as you recognize, naming a new line requires the assent of the Chelish government, which places a key institution of Ravounel outside the democratic control of its people and under the control of a foreign autocrat.
Third, the situation you fear, of "[w]hat happens the next time (in 150 years) when the people of Kintargo forgets to have a Board of Governors select their Lord-Mayor," is the situation prevailing at the start of the AP, and as you note, this gave the Chelish government a free hand in Ravounel.
I would propose that a solution to the problems of people forgetting that the Board of Governors exists, and of its undemocratic nature, would be to make all five Governor positions elective, from among all the members of the five families. Nowhere does The Kintargo Contract (the adventure or the document) provide that a Governor must be the head of his family, only a member. It is only circumstance and possibly tradition that "requires" the particular individuals enumerated in the adventure be the ones chosen to fill out the Board. The procedure for choosing a Governor from among each family is undefined, and can thus be determined by ordinary law rather than by amending the Kintargo Contract. That law can provide that the electorate for the Board of Governors be coextensive with the electorate for the Lord-Mayor of Kintargo/Domina of Ravounel (e.g., all citizens of Kintargo, all citizens of Ravounel, or what have you), and that elections to the Board of Governors take place at the same time and in the same manner as elections of the Lord-Mayor/Domina. This electorate will presumably choose a slate of Governors they believe will ratify their choice of Lord-Mayor/Domina without trouble. And doing so at the same time as the Lord-Mayor/Domina election will reinforce the memory of the Board's existence. Finally, electing Governors means that the Board can be brought into the democratic governance of the country in whatever capacity rather than sidelined into a singular duty of ratifying the election of a Lord-Mayor/Domina. Its members might serve as judges, or on the Silver Council, or as government ministers.
A further security of the democracy and integrity of the Board might be to provide by law that each family must adopt a certain number of individuals to fill out its numbers. The most radical form of such a law might be that each family must adopt as members every citizen of Ravounel. Combined with the electoral law contemplated above, this makes every citizen of Ravounel a candidate for election to each of the five seats on the Board of Governors. And expanding each family to include every citizen of Ravounel would make it impossible for Cheliax to render any family extinct without killing every citizen of Ravounel--a thing which is functionally impossible. Not incidentally, depending on the prevailing inheritance law of Ravounel, such a law could also divide the five families' properties among the people.
[1] I'm citing this line preferentially to Odexidie's explanation because it is written in the objective voice of the author and not in the voice of a potentially unreliable character.
I did not realize that was it. Excellent to know. I love APs where the PCs have a marked impact on the setting.
Thanks for the info.
It wasn't, that's a post hoc rationalization. And it's still the Pactmasters making the reforms, with radicals shaking power rather than the people taking power. There has not yet been an AP where the latter happens.
If they are seriously concerned about not getting sued by Wizards of the Coast, simply removing the word "drow" and just calling them "dark elves" would be enough, just like they did with duergar, wouldn't it?
Not legal advice (I'm sure Paizo got that in spades from either in-house or third-party counsel), but in a word, no. Filing the serial numbers off a work or element of a work does not in and of itself mean that the work or element is not infringing.
--Is there a list listing the currently "legal" gods/demigods whatever in Cheliax?
--Is heresy against "legal" "gods", but gods who are not part of the infernal hierarchy punished in Cheliax? Meaning, I obviously get into problems with the government. But what if I vandalize a temple of father skinsaw with tasteful depictions of another assassination focused entity that is objectively much nicer to look at?
--Is there a list of what industries Kintargo has? My planned character is pretty much highly profit oriented, and would be planning to gain money by selling the Chelish military things that are expensive but which they dont actually need.
Cheliax's religious law establishes one church and by default tolerates all others but reserves to the right to proscribe any other church at any time, for any length of time, for any reason. As of the opening of Hell's Rebels, the central government proscribed the Glorious Reclamation for sedition, obviously--but did not proscribe the Church of Iomedae as a whole. After the Glorious Reclamation's insurrection was put down, Queen Abrogail would dishonorably lure the leadership of Iomedae's mainstream church to their deaths by execution in Egorian, but would still not actually proscribe her worship. This was for nationalistic reasons: Iomedae was a Chelish subject in life, and her place in the heavens is a persistent source of patriotic pride. Barzillai Thrune in his capacity as Lord-Mayor of Kintargo promulgated several more proscriptions within his jurisdiction that are relevant to the campaign: of Calistria, Cayden Cailean, Desna, Milani, and Sarenrae. He also mandated that congregants at Shelyn's religious services register with the government, but did not proscribe her worship outright.
The government will not intervene to protect a church that is not established, per se. However, the act of vandalism of another's property is generally unlawful, and you might find yourself arrested and charged if you engage in it, whatever the target. Furthermore, even if you are not, if the relevant church finds you out, it can sue you civilly for damages; the state will aid it in this aim by haling you into court, punishing you for contempt if you don't show up, and likely by favoring the institution over the individual in terms of its rules of procedure.
I address Ravounel's economic base, including Kintargo's manufacture (read: handicraft) and mercantile economy here.
Disappointed at the lack of inclusion of the El-Shelad Madrassa and the Academy of Scribes on the wiki, two relatively overlooked but still significant magical schools in Osirion. The Academy of Scribes has been training wizards for Osirion's bureaucracy for millennia, while the El-Shelad Madrassa teaches a blended mix of Osiriani and Keleshite traditions. They haven't gotten a lot of fleshing out, but they still exist.
It's a wiki, thus necessarily understaffed and without clear project responsibilities and deadlines. Add them.
What if the "Iblydian Alexander" was actually a proponent of the political and social theories you like, galvanizing true revolution in the old dusty empire and its colonies ?
"The most extravagant idea that can be born in the head of a political thinker is to believe that it suffices for people to enter, weapons in hand, among a foreign people and expect to have its laws and constitution embraced. No one loves armed missionaries; the first lesson of nature and prudence is to repulse them as enemies."
I think a conversation about Paizo’s best that doesn’t include Strength of Thousands isn’t a serious one, personally.
I cannot say. I have very little familiarity with it.
Then why say "you get a top Adventure Path List that would exclude every single one of the Adv Paths written for PF2 so far, imo" if you haven't... actually... read the works you're disparaging?
In other news, one valid reason not to have read Strength of Thousands is that I still hope to play in that campaign. :)
Imagine being able to play Pathfinder at any point.
I think if Paizo wanted to have Nazi-punching on Golarion, they already have a nation of racist authoritarian jackboots with an obsession about digging up artefacts in the sand - Cheliax. Fairly explicitly, Cheliax is explicitly there to be an easy go-to for uncomplicated and unambiguous bad guys. They don't need to go looking.
Pfffft, they don't even wear black leather dusters. Well, their inquisitors might...
I don’t think any ally of Nidal’s needs to worry about a black leather shortage.
Does Nidal produce and finish the black leather, or does it import and finish it, or does it import it finished? In the last case, Nidal would make a poor supplier for dusters, but on the other hand Cheliax might be able to negotiate directly with its supplier.
Doesn't so much ave to do with aeons blocking technological process as it does with there simply being better solutions in-world to solve problems.
The trouble with this is that we don't actually see magic used to do what technology does - improve the productivity of labor so as to drive down the value of the capacity to labor or, what is a manifestation of the same thing, drive down the worker-hours required to produce a given good or provide a given service. We don't see, for instance, infernal engines competing with steam engines to drive jennies or looms, instead we see the predominance of handicraft production. We don't see aiudara or the Stone Road or other teleportation outcompeting caravan or seagoing trade (yet). The examples are myriad.
To the extent magic is used in the labor process at all, it is employed by highly-skilled, nigh-exclusive classes of people who derive their high status from its exclusivity and their personal power from their exclusive skills. And it is this social/guild power of magicians (including clerics, druids, etc.) which must account for both the suppression of magic in general labor-saving applications and the suppression of mundane alternatives. Worth noting is that magical engines (including infernal engines and whatever the engine is that the Aspis Consortium uses on their ships, as well as aiudara) are as equally dependent as everything else magical on their creators' specialized knowledge and skill, and are difficult to reproduce even if the art of their creation is not outright lost with their creators. Compare machines making other machines, which is comparatively easy.
I'm also clinically incapable of not mentioning rebel-loving, opera house-having Kintargo as a City of Bards.
Oppara stands head and shoulders above both it and Pitax in this regard, not only because of its outsize population, but for have two bardic colleges to Kintargo's zero and Pitax's one.
Elves of Golarion was a DND 3.5 book, not Pathfinder. Elves did not sleep in 3.5.
Elves were equally immune to magic sleep effects in D&D3.5 and in PF1. Whether that immunity to a magical compulsion meant that they slept naturally was a separate matter, and left to the campaign setting to determine. Elves did not sleep in Forgotten Realms, but were always meant to sleep in Golarion.
I think this is probably a reason it won't be Asmodeus. Cheliax has had its narrative of decline. After losing Sargava and Ravounel and surviving an Iomedean revolt, the story going forward should be about it clawing back every ounce of power it can by any means necessary.
Like, for instance, strengthening its own position in the Hellish hierarchy and perhaps gaining some freedom within its contractual strictures, while at the same time deepening its own damnation, by helping the Lord of the Eighth, the first true devil, or the Lord of the Fifth, the asura Quisling, assassinate the Lord of the Ninth, the usurper from Heaven?
Hao Jin from Fists of the Ruby Phoenix. Sorcerer 20/ Archmage 9.
Wants to obtain true immortality but cannot achieve it and she's "centuries" old.. How come she's not dead of old age? Cant seem to find her stats.
No 1E stats either beyond that statline. She may be using a drug like the Sun Orchid Elixir, or she may have the Longevity mythic ability but not consider that "true" immortality for whatever reason (compare Sun Wukong gaining some manner of immortality short of "true" immortality three different ways).
although, were I writing it today, I'd replace Geoff Tanessen in the General [Admiral] role with Cassius Sargaeta; replace Manticce Kaleekii in the Grand Diplomat role with Shensen, Shensen in the Marshal role with Tayacet Tiora, and Tayacet Tiora in the Warden role with Octavio Sabinus while leaving the Royal Enforcer role vacant
Actually, scratch that. Replace Manticce Kaleekii in the Grand Diplomat role with Shensen, Shensen in the Marshal role with Jackdaw, and Belcara Jarvis in the Treasurer role with Mhelrem Gesteliel; Octavio Sabinus and Tayacet Tiora can stay Royal Enforcer and Warden respectively.
Brief commentary on some peculiar features of the Ravounel constitution as laid out above:
Peers other than the Domina (who must appear to meetings in person and without whom no meeting of the Council of Peers may take place) being permitted to appear by proxy was a concession to the Vyreans, whose Kings and Queens must by law and custom maintain public anonymity.
The privilege of Acisazi to receive elven dignitaries and conclude treaties with elven states is a concession to its essentially condominium status. The Silver Council receiving Nidalese dignitaries and negotiating a treaty with that country was a matter of consent and delegation.
Suffrage in the Kintargo Assembly is most properly, as outlined in the Kintargo Contract, a privilege of citizens of Kintargo, but is extended to all citizens of Ravounel on an equal basis by the operation of Article IV of the Treaty of Confederation. The Assembly's agenda is set by the Silver Council, but it reserves the power to debate and amend bills (powers denied to Roman assemblies, for instance) as well as to elect high magistrates including the Domina and judges. Jury trial in criminal matters is guaranteed by the revolutionary decrees of the Silver Council.
Other important elections include those of low and middling (essentially up to regimental) militia officers. Higher and naval officers, and cabinet ministers are appointed by and responsible to the Council of Peers, but appointments must have the consent of the Silver Council. Members of that body accordingly tend to end up in the cabinet or as generals or admirals, but the cabinet and Silver Council are not coextensive. The enumerated list of departments comes from the list of Leadership Roles in Daigle, et al., Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Campaign, at *200 - 04 (2013) - and ultimately from McCreary, et al., Pathfinder Adventure Path #32: Rivers Run Red, at *54 - 62 (2010) - whose vacancies carry a penalty. For my view of a "who's who" of the cabinet, see this post (specifically the section "Provisional Government of Ravounel (4716+) (mechanically)" - although, were I writing it today, I'd replace Geoff Tanessen in the General [Admiral] role with Cassius Sargaeta; replace Manticce Kaleekii in the Grand Diplomat role with Shensen, Shensen in the Marshal role with Tayacet Tiora, and Tayacet Tiora in the Warden role with Octavio Sabinus while leaving the Royal Enforcer role vacant; and include Marquel Aulorian, Chuko, and Molly Mayapple on the Silver Council).
Finally among the texts of the Basic Law there is the Treaty of Peace with Cheliax (note however that the Domina is properly styled "Her Excellency" rather than "Her Ladyship").
Breaking up the basic law into a fairly small number of constitutive texts, but greater than one, is relatively common - Sweden does this, for instance.
And, similarly, the Treaty of Confederation which confirms the unity of Ravounel, establishes many of its institutions, and extends such rights and privileges as may be determined by law (including the preexisting Kintargo Contract) equally to citizens. Included among the basic law may also be revolutionary proclamations of the Silver Council prior to the conclusion of the said treaty (but excepting the proposed draft of the Kintargo Contract, which is superseded by that set forth above, the Decree on Incorporation which is obviated by it, the Decree on the Establishment of the Council of Peers which is obviated by the Treaty of Confederation, and the Decree on the Archbarony of Cypress Point which is more in the vein of ordinary business).
In a similar vein, a possible text of the agreement adhered to in furtherance of Mission 2: Uniting Ravounel (seeThe Kintargo Contract, at *27 - 28), that constitutes in essential form the state depicted in various Lost Omens texts (e.g., the World Guide, Legends, Tomorrow Must Burn, Firebrands):
Treaty of Confederation:
To all whom these Presents shall come, we the undersigned, being duly constituted and appointed delegates of the respective Communes and Cantons affixed to our names under the terms of the Kintargo Contract, agree to the words following, viz. "Treaty of Confederation between the Communes of Kintargo and Vyre and the Cantons of Ravounel Isles, Ravounel Forest, the North Plains, and the Coastal Waters."
Article I.
The name of the confederation shall be the "Dominion of Ravounel."
Article II.
Sovereignty essentially resides in the people of Ravounel, which confirms and guarantees to each Commune and Canton every power, jurisdiction, and right which is constituted in it by the Kintargo Contract for so long as the Cheliax Covenant shall endure.
Article III.
The said Communes and Cantons hereby enter into a firm league of friendship with each other, for their common defense, the security of their liberties, and their mutual and general welfare, binding themselves to assist each other, against all force offered to, or attacks made upon them, or any of them, on account of sovereignty, religion, trade, or any other pretense whatsoever.
Article IV.
The better to secure and perpetuate mutual friendship and intercourse among the people of Ravounel, the citizens of each Commune and Canton, fugitives from justice excepted, shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in all the Communes and Cantons; and the people of each Commune and Canton shall have free ingress and regress to and from any other Commune or Canton, and shall enjoy therein all the privileges of trade and commerce, subject to the same duties, impositions, and restrictions as the inhabitants thereof respectively, provided that such restrictions shall not extend so far as to prevent the removal of property imported into any Commune or Canton, to any other Commune or Canton, of which the owner is inhabitant; provided also that no imposition, duties, or restriction shall be laid by any Commune or Canton, on the property of the Dominion of Ravounel or any other Commune or Canton.
If any person guilty of, or charged with, treason, felony, or other high misdemeanor in any Commune or Canton, shall flee from justice, and be found in any Commune or Canton, they shall, upon demand of the executive power of the Commune or Canton from which they fled, be delivered up and removed to the Commune or Canton having jurisdiction of their offense.
Full faith and credit shall be given in each Commune and Canton to the records, acts, and judicial proceedings of the courts and Justices of every other Commune and Canton.
Article V.
For the purpose of exercising the executive power of Ravounel, viz.: carrying out the government, defense, and foreign relations of Ravounel, the Peers of each Commune and Canton, viz.: for the Commune of Kintargo, the Lord-Mayor; for the Commune of Vyre, such King or Queen as they shall among themselves elect; for the Canton of Ravounel Isles, such King or Queen of Vyre as they shall among themselves elect; for the Canton of Ravounel Forest, the Rokoa of Tastikka; for the Canton of the North Plains the Mayor of Cypress Point; and for the Canton of the Coastal Waters the Speaker of Acisazi, shall meet in Council, personally or if not the Lord-Mayor of Kintargo through duly constituted and appointed commissioners, in Kintargo on the fourteenth day of Neth each year.
Sessions of the Council of Peers shall continue from the fourteenth day of Neth each year through the thirteenth day of Neth the following year. Meetings of the Council of Peers shall be convened, presided over, and adjourned by the Dominus or Domina of Ravounel, who shall be the Lord-Mayor of Kintargo. The presence of a majority of Peers or commissioners, but including the Dominus or Domina, shall be sufficient for the transaction of business.
In determining questions in the Council of Peers, each Commune and Canton shall have one vote and a majority of votes shall determine the question, but the Domina shall break any ties.
The Council of Peers may relieve of its own motion, and shall from time to time appoint with the consent of the Silver Council: officers of the army and navy, and officers of the militias above the rank of Colonel; the heads of such cabinet departments as may be constituted but including departments for war, peace, religion, education, external security, internal security, finance, and justice; ambassadors; and Justices of courts other than those of the Communes.
Freedom of speech and debate in the Council of Peers shall not be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of the Council of Peers, and the Peers and commissioners shall be protected in their persons from arrests or imprisonments, during the time of their going to and from, and attendance at the Council of Peers, except for treason, felony, or breach of the peace. Minutes of meetings of the Council of Peers shall be published no later than thirty days following the close of each session.
Article VI.
Ravounel shall enter into treaties in the name of the Dominus or Domina, on the consent of the Council of Peers and the Kintargo Assembly. No Commune or Canton shall lay any imposts or duties which may interfere with any stipulations in treaties entered into by Ravounel.
No Commune or Canton, without the consent of the Dominus or Domina, shall send any embassy to, or receive any embassy from, or enter into any conference, agreement, alliance or treaty with any foreign State, but consent to send embassies to and receive embassies from Irim and Mirivenn shall not be denied to the Canton of the Coastal Waters and the agreements, alliances, and treaties as between Acisazi on the one part and Irim or Mirivenn on the other part, hitherto existing, continue in force, with the Dominion of Ravounel to assume such rights and duties thereunder as the Council of Peers shall accept.
No two or more Communes or Cantons shall enter into any treaty, confederation, or alliance whatsoever between them, without the consent of the Council of Peers, specifying accurately the purposes for which the same is to be entered into, and how long it shall continue.
No person holding any office of profit or trust under the Dominion of Ravounel, or any Commune or Canton, shall accept any present, emolument, office, or title of any kind whatsoever from any foreign State; nor shall the Dominion of Ravounel, or any Commune or Canton, create any title of nobility.
Each Commune and Canton shall always keep up a well-regulated and disciplined militia of land forces, sufficiently armed and accoutered and provided with officers up to and including the rank of Colonel by election from among the militia, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use, in public stores, a proper quantity of arms, ammunition, and camp equipage; but no vessel of war shall be kept up, nor letters of marque or reprisal granted, by any Commune or Canton, and the upkeep of the army and navy shall be the responsibility of the legislative power, and the garrisoning of forts and granting of letters of marque or reprisal shall be the responsibility of the Council of Peers.
No Commune or Canton shall engage in any war without the consent of the Kintargo Assembly, unless such Commune or Canton be actually invaded by enemies.
Article VII.
All charges of war, and all other expenses that shall be incurred for the common defense or general welfare, and allowed by the Kintargo Assembly, shall be defrayed out of a common treasury, which shall be supplied by the people of each Commune and Canton according to taxes laid and levied by the Kintargo Assembly.
Article VIII.
The Silver Council and Kintargo Assembly shall jointly and exclusively exercise the legislative power of Ravounel, viz: guaranteeing and confirming the rights, privileges, and immunities of citizens and residents of Ravounel; establishing rules for citizenship and naturalization; determining on peace or war; sending or receiving ambassadors; entering into treaties and alliances; regulating trade with foreign States; establishing rules for deciding in all cases, what captures on land or water shall be legal, and in what manner prizes taken by land or naval forces in the service of Ravounel shall be divided or appropriated; establishing rules for the local government of the Baronies and Archbaronies, and chartering Communes, respecting the principle of popular sovereignty; coining money throughout Ravounel and regulating the alloy and value of coin struck by its authority; fixing the standards of weights and measures throughout Ravounel; regulating trade and industry throughout Ravounel; establishing post offices throughout Ravounel and exacting such postage on the papers passing through the same as may be requisite to defray their expenses; determining the salaries of the army, naval, and cabinet department officers, and Justices; ascertaining the necessary budgets to be raised for the army, navy, cabinet departments, courts, and other public expenses; appropriating and applying the same for defraying the public expenses; laying, levying, and collecting taxes; and borrowing money or emitting bills of credit.
In each exercise of the legislative power, the Silver Council shall have the initiative of bills and the Kintargo Assembly shall pronounce decision on bills, but the Kintargo Assembly shall have of its own motion the power to amend bills initiated by the Silver Council. Should the office of Lord-Mayor fall vacant, the Silver Council shall within seven days publish a bill for the election of a Lord-Mayor from among all citizens of Kintargo.
The citizens shall Assemble in Kintargo, from sunup to sundown each day until all questions put to them have been decided, no later than fourteen days following the publication of a bill by the Silver Council for their consideration, but no less frequently than every fourteenth day of Neth every two years for the purpose of electing the Lord-Mayor of Kintargo, and the Justices of Kintargo who shall for the two years following their election have original and en banc appellate jurisdiction over all crimes arising within the Commune of Kintargo and matters arising between a citizen of the Commune of Kintargo and any other person or between any two Communes and Cantons or between a Commune or Canton on the one part and Ravounel on the other or between a Commune or Canton or Ravounel on the one part and any foreign State on the other, and appellate jurisdiction over all other crimes and matters over which any court of Ravounel has jurisdiction, and whose number shall be determined by law.
The Kintargo Assembly shall be presided over by the Council of Peers. In determining questions in Kintargo Assembly, each citizen shall have one vote and a majority of votes shall determine the question, the Council of Peers shall collectively break any ties.
Freedom of speech and debate in the Kintargo Assembly shall not be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of the Kintargo Assembly, and the citizens shall be protected in their persons from arrests or imprisonments, during the time of their going to and from, and attendance at the Kintargo Assembly, except for treason, felony, or breach of the peace.
The Silver Council shall solely and exclusively determine its composition and rules of order, viz.: establishing rules for and deciding upon admissions, salaries, and expulsions of its members but no person shall be a member who is not a citizen of Ravounel, or who is a Peer; deciding upon the durations of its sessions and meetings; and electing from among its members a Speaker to preside over its meetings and the meetings of cabinet and to report to the Council of Peers the minutes and decisions of such meetings and the receipts and disbursements of the government departments, and such other officers as are necessary for the transaction of business.
In determining questions in the Silver Council, each member shall have one vote and a majority of votes shall determine the question, but the Speaker shall break any ties.
Freedom of speech and debate in the Silver Council shall not be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of the Silver Council, and the members shall be protected in their persons from arrests or imprisonments, during the time of their going to and from, and attendance at the Silver Council, except for treason, felony, or breach of the peace. Meetings of the Silver Council shall be public, and minutes of its meetings shall be published no later than seven days following the close of each meeting.
All bills of credit emitted, monies borrowed, and debts contracted by, or under the authority of the Silver Council, before the execution of the present Treaty, in pursuance of the present confederation, shall be deemed and considered as a charge against Ravounel, for payment and satisfaction whereof the public faith of Ravounel is solemnly pledged.
Article X.
Every Commune and Canton shall abide by the determinations of the Council of Peers and Kintargo Assembly, on all questions which by virtue of this Treaty are submitted to them. And the Articles of this Treaty shall be inviolably observed by every Commune and Canton, and the Union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them, unless such alteration be agreed to by the Council of Peers and the Kintargo Assembly.
Wherefore know ye that we the undersigned delegates, by virtue of the power and authority to us given for that purpose, do by these presents, in the name of our respective Communes and Cantons, fully and entirely ratify and confirm each and every of the articles of the said Treaty of Confederation, and all and singular the matters and things therein contained: and we do further solemnly plight and engage the faith of our respective Communes and Cantons, that they shall abide by the determines of the Council of Peers and Kintargo Assembly, on all questions, which by the said Treaty are submitted to them. And that the articles thereof shall be inviolably observed by the Communes and Cantons we respectively represent, and that the Union shall be perpetual.
In witness whereof we have hereunto set our hands.
On the part and behalf of the Commune of Kintargo:
LORD-MAYOR JILIA BAINILUS {Seal}
Done at Kintargo the [day] day of [month] in the year [year]
On the part and behalf of the Commune of Vyre:
MANTICCE KALEEKII {Seal}
Done at Vyre the [day] day of [month] in the year [year]
On the part and behalf of the Canton of Ravounel Isles
MANTICCE KALEEKII {Seal}
Done at Vyre the [day] day of [month] in the year [year]
On the part and behalf of the Canton of Ravounel Forest
ROKOA SOLMESTRIA {Seal}
Done at Tastikka the [day] day of [month] in the year [year]
On the part and behalf of the Canton of the North Plains
XERELILAH {Seal}
Done at Cypress Point the [day] day of [month] in the year [year]
On the part and behalf of the Canton of the Coastal Waters
SPEAKER ATHANNAH QUHURILL {Seal}
Done at Acisazi the [day] day of [month] in the year [year]
The constitution I have outlined above is susceptible to being written down. Maybe I'll do that one of these days.
In furtherance of this aim, attached please find a possible text of the Kintargo Contract, to which ultimately the basic law of Ravounel must conform while it at the Cheliax Covenant endure, but which establishes the basis for the unity of Ravounel and the basic town rights of the citizens of Kintargo and Vyre.
Possible text of the Kintargo Contract, according to the terms laid out in Groves, Parthfinder Adventure Path #101: The Kintargo Contract, at *7 (2015), styled after Infernal Contract #9485784.3728:7845,9888495 reproduced in full at Jacobs, et al., Pathfinder Adventure Path: Curse of the Crimson Throne, Anniversary Edition, at *376 (2016):
The Kintargo Contract:
MATERIAL PLANE, being the FOURTH Incarnation of the THIRD Cycle of Mortality, on file in Fallen Fastness #######,####:####,#######.
This Kintargo Contract is a lawful Agreement between ASMODEUS, King of Hell, by and through ODEXIDIE, Vice Barrister of Terrestrial Prospects, and ABROGAIL THRUNE, Infernal Magestrix of the Mortal Realm of Cheliax (hereinafter the “High Contracting Parties”).
The High Contracting Parties each, jointly and severally, recognize the ancient oaths and pledges of the citizens each of Kintargo and Vyre to their respective common defense, and confirm their necessary rights in furtherance of the exercise thereof: to erect, maintain, and defend circuits of walls around their Communes; to come and go within and without same but to charge tolls at rates determined by law for the entry and exit through same and at ports; and to hold markets therein on days determined by law—and the further rights of the citizens of Kintargo to charter companies for the storage and exclusive trade in salt, fishes, raw stone and finished masonry, and raw and finished silver not coined; to coin money in copper, silver, gold, and platinum denominations according to weights and measures determined by law; to levy and collect taxes on property and to disburse Communal property; and to assemble from time to time for the purpose of electing a Lord-Mayor and Justices to rule according to law.
The High Contracting Parties each, jointly and severally, recognize and confirm the rights of the territories comprising "Ravounel"—viz.: the Communes of Kintargo and Vyre, the North Plains not comprised in Nidal, and the lands of and surrounding Ravounel Forest, bounded jointly by that line which is drawn from the easternmost source of Thrune's Chance Creek to the highest peak of Mount Emihym; thence along the crest of the Menador Mountains which divides the rivers that flow into the Arcadian Ocean from those which flow into the Hellmouth Gulf and the Inner Sea, to the highest peak of Mount Nyisaid; thence along that line which is drawn westerly to the easternmost inlet of the Arcadian Ocean; thence along the shore to the mouth of Thrune's Chance Creek in Nisroch Bay; thence up along the middle of that river to its easternmost source; comprehending all islands within sixty miles of any part of the shores of Ravounel, and lying between a line to be drawn due west from the point where the aforesaid boundary with Hellcoast shall touch the Arcadian Ocean on the one part, and a line to be drawn due north from the point where the aforesaid boundary with Nidal shall touch the Steaming Sea on the other part, excepting such islands as now are, or heretofore have been within the limits of the said Nidal and Hellcoast; and comprehending all waters within 12 miles of any part of the shores of Ravounel—to join with Kintargo in the exercise of its rights and duties upon confirmation of a resident representative who enjoys the acclaim of its people according to law.
The High Contracting Parties each, jointly and severally, recognize and confirm that during their term a Lord-Mayor ratified in their position by a majority of a Board of Governors consisting in plenum of one lineal or adopted descendant each of five families known to the High Contracting Parties may from time to time delegate the duty of the defense of Kintargo and of Ravounel, and the exercise of any or all of the rights enumerated herein, to the High Contracting Parties, jointly or severally, and their respective agents, in furtherance of the purposes, and pursuant to the terms, of the Cheliax Covenant from which this Agreement shall be unseverable—but between terms of a duly ratified Lord-Mayor the High Contracting Parties shall not be obstructed in the exercise of their duly delegated rights throughout Ravounel in furtherance of their duly delegated duties and the purposes of the Cheliax Covenant.
The High Contracting Parties each, jointly and severally, recognize and confirm that a usurpation of the rights of the citizens of Kintargo as enumerated herein shall constitute a breach, and be grounds for termination, of this Agreement.
In code #######,####:####,#######. Subject to ASMODEUS’S veto, honor to his name.
Signed in blood and bound by soul—
ABROGAIL THRUNE {Seal}
I was thinking about Nirmathas and was wondering is nirmathas even organized enough to meet the legal definition of a country cause the only formal position they have is the forest Marshall right?
There is no "legal definition of a country," especially in a system of interstate anarchy without effective supranational institutions like Golarion's. A country is that which other countries recognize as their peer. Oprak at least has concluded treaties with, thus recognized, Nirmathas. I believe Korvosa has as well, as part of the process of settling its border with Nirmathas in the Bloodsworn Vale (part of this is now Korvosa's border with Oprak).
Probably because Cheliax regards it as a backwater, which is worth exploiting but not worth putting it on equal footing with the actual important regions of Cheliax.
Equality only matters in the context of political representation, which nobody in Cheliax has due to it being an autocracy. Historically, Isger's special status has permitted it to act as an entrepot into Cheliax for Drumish capital and goods otherwise walled off by tariff. There was a brief (two-year?) period of attempted centralization after the Glorious Reclamation, that was put on indefinite hold after Tar-Baphon made his presence felt. Isger's special status currently means both that it both acts as a canary against Grafarian incursion for the Egorian government, and means they don't have to spend part of their budget defending it.
