Headless Horseman's Horse

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Shadow Lodge

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Oliver von Spreckelsen wrote:
The biggest problem of Council of Thieves is disappointed expections. The Players expect an AP where they are rebelling against the House of Thrune, but in the end they are the Batman of Westcrown. You only need to change the initial speech of Janiven Key and the players will know what to expect from this campaign. (Yes, there are some other problems, too, but that's the main one. And Second Darkness + Serpent Skull have this problem, too)

You do more revolutionizing in winning autonomy (self-government) for the people of Westcrown than you do in any of the APs about overthrowing a government, simply because the options for replacing the overthrown governments are so determinedly conservative.

Shadow Lodge

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First off, kudos to your players for their democratic instincts. Pushing against the strictures of the reactionary institution, the laws establishing it, and the power underlying it, is always correct.

That said, there are problems with expanding the Board of Governors, of both principle and logistics.

First, The Kintargo Contract--the adventure, not the document, though I've integrated the provision into my exegesis of the document, supra--expressly provides that meetings of the Board of Governors must be plenary rather than by quorum. See id., at *23 ("In order to officially ratify a lord-mayor of Kintargo, a majority (3 out of 5) vote from a fully-staffed Board of Governors must be recorded before no fewer than a dozen witnesses.") (emphasis added). That is, all members, rather than a majority of members, must be present to vote. The structure of the adventure strongly reinforces this notion. If the Board of Governors was permitted to meet by quorum, it would be possible to obtain the necessary majority by convening and obtaining the unanimous consent only of representatives of Houses Solstine, Mayhart, and Urvis, and to bar the counterrevolutionaries Melodia Delronge and Geoff Tanessen from attending. But this is not the case. "[T]he PCs need Melodia[ Delronge]'s cooperation only long enough to ratify Jilia[ Bainilus]'s appointment." Id., at *20 (emphasis added); see also, id. ("With respect to the Kintargo Contract, this development [Carliss Mayhart's imprisonment making him unable to attend a meeting of the Board of Governors] is a disaster."). Geoff Tanessen likewise "need[s]... to join the Board of Governors." Id., at *22. Unless the Kintargo Contract is amended, an expanded Board of Governors would still need to adhere to the plenary rule, making conventions of the Board all the more difficult with each member added. The plenary rule also means that expanding the Board does not accomplish what your players want it to accomplish: securing the Board from sabotage at a single point of failure. Whether the full plenum of the Board be five, fifteen, or fifty, one missing Governor still renders it unable to act.

Second, the provision for adding "a new [family] line" is pretty clearly intended to replace extinct lines rather than expanding the size of the Board, which moreover in various places appears limited to five members. Id., at *18[1] ("Had any of [the original five] family lines died out, forming a valid Board of Governors would have required ratification of a new line by the Chelish government.") (emphasis added); see also, id., at *7 (the "'Board of Governors'... is... defined as a group of five individuals"), 9 ("five family lines are required to reconvene the Board of Governors"), 16 ("five bloodlines [are] required to form the Board of Governors"... "'The Board of Governors is to consist of five people'"), 18 ("five family lines [are] required to reform the Board of Governors"). Further, as you recognize, naming a new line requires the assent of the Chelish government, which places a key institution of Ravounel outside the democratic control of its people and under the control of a foreign autocrat.

Third, the situation you fear, of "[w]hat happens the next time (in 150 years) when the people of Kintargo forgets to have a Board of Governors select their Lord-Mayor," is the situation prevailing at the start of the AP, and as you note, this gave the Chelish government a free hand in Ravounel.

I would propose that a solution to the problems of people forgetting that the Board of Governors exists, and of its undemocratic nature, would be to make all five Governor positions elective, from among all the members of the five families. Nowhere does The Kintargo Contract (the adventure or the document) provide that a Governor must be the head of his family, only a member. It is only circumstance and possibly tradition that "requires" the particular individuals enumerated in the adventure be the ones chosen to fill out the Board. The procedure for choosing a Governor from among each family is undefined, and can thus be determined by ordinary law rather than by amending the Kintargo Contract. That law can provide that the electorate for the Board of Governors be coextensive with the electorate for the Lord-Mayor of Kintargo/Domina of Ravounel (e.g., all citizens of Kintargo, all citizens of Ravounel, or what have you), and that elections to the Board of Governors take place at the same time and in the same manner as elections of the Lord-Mayor/Domina. This electorate will presumably choose a slate of Governors they believe will ratify their choice of Lord-Mayor/Domina without trouble. And doing so at the same time as the Lord-Mayor/Domina election will reinforce the memory of the Board's existence. Finally, electing Governors means that the Board can be brought into the democratic governance of the country in whatever capacity rather than sidelined into a singular duty of ratifying the election of a Lord-Mayor/Domina. Its members might serve as judges, or on the Silver Council, or as government ministers.

A further security of the democracy and integrity of the Board might be to provide by law that each family must adopt a certain number of individuals to fill out its numbers. The most radical form of such a law might be that each family must adopt as members every citizen of Ravounel. Combined with the electoral law contemplated above, this makes every citizen of Ravounel a candidate for election to each of the five seats on the Board of Governors. And expanding each family to include every citizen of Ravounel would make it impossible for Cheliax to render any family extinct without killing every citizen of Ravounel--a thing which is functionally impossible. Not incidentally, depending on the prevailing inheritance law of Ravounel, such a law could also divide the five families' properties among the people.

[1] I'm citing this line preferentially to Odexidie's explanation because it is written in the objective voice of the author and not in the voice of a potentially unreliable character.

Shadow Lodge

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The Raven Black wrote:

I did not realize that was it. Excellent to know. I love APs where the PCs have a marked impact on the setting.

Thanks for the info.

It wasn't, that's a post hoc rationalization. And it's still the Pactmasters making the reforms, with radicals shaking power rather than the people taking power. There has not yet been an AP where the latter happens.

Shadow Lodge

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WagnerSika wrote:
Sounds awesome! Could you post the lyrics or a link to them?

I second the motion.

Shadow Lodge

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Plugging ttornikoski's symphony.

Shadow Lodge

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Aenigma wrote:
If they are seriously concerned about not getting sued by Wizards of the Coast, simply removing the word "drow" and just calling them "dark elves" would be enough, just like they did with duergar, wouldn't it?

Not legal advice (I'm sure Paizo got that in spades from either in-house or third-party counsel), but in a word, no. Filing the serial numbers off a work or element of a work does not in and of itself mean that the work or element is not infringing.

Shadow Lodge

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Mightypion wrote:

Hi,

I got a couple of questions:

--Is there a list listing the currently "legal" gods/demigods whatever in Cheliax?

--Is heresy against "legal" "gods", but gods who are not part of the infernal hierarchy punished in Cheliax? Meaning, I obviously get into problems with the government. But what if I vandalize a temple of father skinsaw with tasteful depictions of another assassination focused entity that is objectively much nicer to look at?

--Is there a list of what industries Kintargo has? My planned character is pretty much highly profit oriented, and would be planning to gain money by selling the Chelish military things that are expensive but which they dont actually need.

Cheliax's religious law establishes one church and by default tolerates all others but reserves to the right to proscribe any other church at any time, for any length of time, for any reason. As of the opening of Hell's Rebels, the central government proscribed the Glorious Reclamation for sedition, obviously--but did not proscribe the Church of Iomedae as a whole. After the Glorious Reclamation's insurrection was put down, Queen Abrogail would dishonorably lure the leadership of Iomedae's mainstream church to their deaths by execution in Egorian, but would still not actually proscribe her worship. This was for nationalistic reasons: Iomedae was a Chelish subject in life, and her place in the heavens is a persistent source of patriotic pride. Barzillai Thrune in his capacity as Lord-Mayor of Kintargo promulgated several more proscriptions within his jurisdiction that are relevant to the campaign: of Calistria, Cayden Cailean, Desna, Milani, and Sarenrae. He also mandated that congregants at Shelyn's religious services register with the government, but did not proscribe her worship outright.

The government will not intervene to protect a church that is not established, per se. However, the act of vandalism of another's property is generally unlawful, and you might find yourself arrested and charged if you engage in it, whatever the target. Furthermore, even if you are not, if the relevant church finds you out, it can sue you civilly for damages; the state will aid it in this aim by haling you into court, punishing you for contempt if you don't show up, and likely by favoring the institution over the individual in terms of its rules of procedure.

I address Ravounel's economic base, including Kintargo's manufacture (read: handicraft) and mercantile economy here.

Shadow Lodge

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Morhek wrote:
Disappointed at the lack of inclusion of the El-Shelad Madrassa and the Academy of Scribes on the wiki, two relatively overlooked but still significant magical schools in Osirion. The Academy of Scribes has been training wizards for Osirion's bureaucracy for millennia, while the El-Shelad Madrassa teaches a blended mix of Osiriani and Keleshite traditions. They haven't gotten a lot of fleshing out, but they still exist.

It's a wiki, thus necessarily understaffed and without clear project responsibilities and deadlines. Add them.

Shadow Lodge

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Cori Marie wrote:
Asmodeus is, specific portrayals of Asmodeus are stickier.

What's "specific?" Paizo has never, to my knowledge, portrayed Asmodeus as a colossal serpent (though they have done that with Geryon).

Shadow Lodge

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The Raven Black wrote:
What if the "Iblydian Alexander" was actually a proponent of the political and social theories you like, galvanizing true revolution in the old dusty empire and its colonies ?

"The most extravagant idea that can be born in the head of a political thinker is to believe that it suffices for people to enter, weapons in hand, among a foreign people and expect to have its laws and constitution embraced. No one loves armed missionaries; the first lesson of nature and prudence is to repulse them as enemies."

Shadow Lodge

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glass wrote:
Number 200 is not divisible by three - it would be chapter 2 (or maybe 5 )of the individual AP, which would be an odd place to stop!

Divisibility by 3 is no longer a concern, Season of Ghosts is four books long.

Shadow Lodge

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Lord Fyre wrote:
keftiu wrote:
Lord Fyre wrote:
keftiu wrote:
I think a conversation about Paizo’s best that doesn’t include Strength of Thousands isn’t a serious one, personally.
I cannot say. I have very little familiarity with it.
Then why say "you get a top Adventure Path List that would exclude every single one of the Adv Paths written for PF2 so far, imo" if you haven't... actually... read the works you're disparaging?
In other news, one valid reason not to have read Strength of Thousands is that I still hope to play in that campaign. :)

Imagine being able to play Pathfinder at any point.

Shadow Lodge

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
keftiu wrote:
I assume they keep some kind of spooky goth cattle.
Just the classic Highland Coo, but with emo hair.

Moo

Shadow Lodge

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keftiu wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Morhek wrote:
I think if Paizo wanted to have Nazi-punching on Golarion, they already have a nation of racist authoritarian jackboots with an obsession about digging up artefacts in the sand - Cheliax. Fairly explicitly, Cheliax is explicitly there to be an easy go-to for uncomplicated and unambiguous bad guys. They don't need to go looking.
Pfffft, they don't even wear black leather dusters. Well, their inquisitors might...
I don’t think any ally of Nidal’s needs to worry about a black leather shortage.

Does Nidal produce and finish the black leather, or does it import and finish it, or does it import it finished? In the last case, Nidal would make a poor supplier for dusters, but on the other hand Cheliax might be able to negotiate directly with its supplier.

Shadow Lodge

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James Jacobs wrote:
Doesn't so much ave to do with aeons blocking technological process as it does with there simply being better solutions in-world to solve problems.

The trouble with this is that we don't actually see magic used to do what technology does - improve the productivity of labor so as to drive down the value of the capacity to labor or, what is a manifestation of the same thing, drive down the worker-hours required to produce a given good or provide a given service. We don't see, for instance, infernal engines competing with steam engines to drive jennies or looms, instead we see the predominance of handicraft production. We don't see aiudara or the Stone Road or other teleportation outcompeting caravan or seagoing trade (yet). The examples are myriad.

To the extent magic is used in the labor process at all, it is employed by highly-skilled, nigh-exclusive classes of people who derive their high status from its exclusivity and their personal power from their exclusive skills. And it is this social/guild power of magicians (including clerics, druids, etc.) which must account for both the suppression of magic in general labor-saving applications and the suppression of mundane alternatives. Worth noting is that magical engines (including infernal engines and whatever the engine is that the Aspis Consortium uses on their ships, as well as aiudara) are as equally dependent as everything else magical on their creators' specialized knowledge and skill, and are difficult to reproduce even if the art of their creation is not outright lost with their creators. Compare machines making other machines, which is comparatively easy.

Shadow Lodge

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Bizzare Beasts Boozer wrote:
I'm also clinically incapable of not mentioning rebel-loving, opera house-having Kintargo as a City of Bards.

Oppara stands head and shoulders above both it and Pitax in this regard, not only because of its outsize population, but for have two bardic colleges to Kintargo's zero and Pitax's one.

Shadow Lodge

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Perpdepog wrote:
I want a new wave of Pathfinder Tales novels so much.

Missed this, but I second the motion.

Shadow Lodge

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Rysky wrote:
Elves of Golarion was a DND 3.5 book, not Pathfinder. Elves did not sleep in 3.5.

Elves were equally immune to magic sleep effects in D&D3.5 and in PF1. Whether that immunity to a magical compulsion meant that they slept naturally was a separate matter, and left to the campaign setting to determine. Elves did not sleep in Forgotten Realms, but were always meant to sleep in Golarion.

Shadow Lodge

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Morhek wrote:
I think this is probably a reason it won't be Asmodeus. Cheliax has had its narrative of decline. After losing Sargava and Ravounel and surviving an Iomedean revolt, the story going forward should be about it clawing back every ounce of power it can by any means necessary.

Like, for instance, strengthening its own position in the Hellish hierarchy and perhaps gaining some freedom within its contractual strictures, while at the same time deepening its own damnation, by helping the Lord of the Eighth, the first true devil, or the Lord of the Fifth, the asura Quisling, assassinate the Lord of the Ninth, the usurper from Heaven?

Shadow Lodge

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magnuskn wrote:
Milani. . . among the group of mayor deities.

I'd hate to see her sell out like this.

Shadow Lodge

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What has been happening in PFS these last couple years?

Shadow Lodge

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There is an infernal duke named after Thomas Malthus *spit*, and I will be forever grateful for that.

Shadow Lodge

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Who cast mirror image on the thread?

Shadow Lodge

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BylethEisner wrote:

Hao Jin from Fists of the Ruby Phoenix. Sorcerer 20/ Archmage 9.

Wants to obtain true immortality but cannot achieve it and she's "centuries" old.. How come she's not dead of old age? Cant seem to find her stats.

No 1E stats either beyond that statline. She may be using a drug like the Sun Orchid Elixir, or she may have the Longevity mythic ability but not consider that "true" immortality for whatever reason (compare Sun Wukong gaining some manner of immortality short of "true" immortality three different ways).

Shadow Lodge

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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
although, were I writing it today, I'd replace Geoff Tanessen in the General [Admiral] role with Cassius Sargaeta; replace Manticce Kaleekii in the Grand Diplomat role with Shensen, Shensen in the Marshal role with Tayacet Tiora, and Tayacet Tiora in the Warden role with Octavio Sabinus while leaving the Royal Enforcer role vacant

Actually, scratch that. Replace Manticce Kaleekii in the Grand Diplomat role with Shensen, Shensen in the Marshal role with Jackdaw, and Belcara Jarvis in the Treasurer role with Mhelrem Gesteliel; Octavio Sabinus and Tayacet Tiora can stay Royal Enforcer and Warden respectively.

Shadow Lodge

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Brief commentary on some peculiar features of the Ravounel constitution as laid out above:

Peers other than the Domina (who must appear to meetings in person and without whom no meeting of the Council of Peers may take place) being permitted to appear by proxy was a concession to the Vyreans, whose Kings and Queens must by law and custom maintain public anonymity.

The privilege of Acisazi to receive elven dignitaries and conclude treaties with elven states is a concession to its essentially condominium status. The Silver Council receiving Nidalese dignitaries and negotiating a treaty with that country was a matter of consent and delegation.

Suffrage in the Kintargo Assembly is most properly, as outlined in the Kintargo Contract, a privilege of citizens of Kintargo, but is extended to all citizens of Ravounel on an equal basis by the operation of Article IV of the Treaty of Confederation. The Assembly's agenda is set by the Silver Council, but it reserves the power to debate and amend bills (powers denied to Roman assemblies, for instance) as well as to elect high magistrates including the Domina and judges. Jury trial in criminal matters is guaranteed by the revolutionary decrees of the Silver Council.

Other important elections include those of low and middling (essentially up to regimental) militia officers. Higher and naval officers, and cabinet ministers are appointed by and responsible to the Council of Peers, but appointments must have the consent of the Silver Council. Members of that body accordingly tend to end up in the cabinet or as generals or admirals, but the cabinet and Silver Council are not coextensive. The enumerated list of departments comes from the list of Leadership Roles in Daigle, et al., Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Campaign, at *200 - 04 (2013) - and ultimately from McCreary, et al., Pathfinder Adventure Path #32: Rivers Run Red, at *54 - 62 (2010) - whose vacancies carry a penalty. For my view of a "who's who" of the cabinet, see this post (specifically the section "Provisional Government of Ravounel (4716+) (mechanically)" - although, were I writing it today, I'd replace Geoff Tanessen in the General [Admiral] role with Cassius Sargaeta; replace Manticce Kaleekii in the Grand Diplomat role with Shensen, Shensen in the Marshal role with Tayacet Tiora, and Tayacet Tiora in the Warden role with Octavio Sabinus while leaving the Royal Enforcer role vacant; and include Marquel Aulorian, Chuko, and Molly Mayapple on the Silver Council).

Shadow Lodge

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Finally among the texts of the Basic Law there is the Treaty of Peace with Cheliax (note however that the Domina is properly styled "Her Excellency" rather than "Her Ladyship").

Breaking up the basic law into a fairly small number of constitutive texts, but greater than one, is relatively common - Sweden does this, for instance.

Shadow Lodge

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And, similarly, the Treaty of Confederation which confirms the unity of Ravounel, establishes many of its institutions, and extends such rights and privileges as may be determined by law (including the preexisting Kintargo Contract) equally to citizens. Included among the basic law may also be revolutionary proclamations of the Silver Council prior to the conclusion of the said treaty (but excepting the proposed draft of the Kintargo Contract, which is superseded by that set forth above, the Decree on Incorporation which is obviated by it, the Decree on the Establishment of the Council of Peers which is obviated by the Treaty of Confederation, and the Decree on the Archbarony of Cypress Point which is more in the vein of ordinary business).

Shadow Lodge

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In a similar vein, a possible text of the agreement adhered to in furtherance of Mission 2: Uniting Ravounel (see The Kintargo Contract, at *27 - 28), that constitutes in essential form the state depicted in various Lost Omens texts (e.g., the World Guide, Legends, Tomorrow Must Burn, Firebrands):

Treaty of Confederation:

To all whom these Presents shall come, we the undersigned, being duly constituted and appointed delegates of the respective Communes and Cantons affixed to our names under the terms of the Kintargo Contract, agree to the words following, viz. "Treaty of Confederation between the Communes of Kintargo and Vyre and the Cantons of Ravounel Isles, Ravounel Forest, the North Plains, and the Coastal Waters."

Article I.

The name of the confederation shall be the "Dominion of Ravounel."

Article II.

Sovereignty essentially resides in the people of Ravounel, which confirms and guarantees to each Commune and Canton every power, jurisdiction, and right which is constituted in it by the Kintargo Contract for so long as the Cheliax Covenant shall endure.

Article III.

The said Communes and Cantons hereby enter into a firm league of friendship with each other, for their common defense, the security of their liberties, and their mutual and general welfare, binding themselves to assist each other, against all force offered to, or attacks made upon them, or any of them, on account of sovereignty, religion, trade, or any other pretense whatsoever.

Article IV.

The better to secure and perpetuate mutual friendship and intercourse among the people of Ravounel, the citizens of each Commune and Canton, fugitives from justice excepted, shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in all the Communes and Cantons; and the people of each Commune and Canton shall have free ingress and regress to and from any other Commune or Canton, and shall enjoy therein all the privileges of trade and commerce, subject to the same duties, impositions, and restrictions as the inhabitants thereof respectively, provided that such restrictions shall not extend so far as to prevent the removal of property imported into any Commune or Canton, to any other Commune or Canton, of which the owner is inhabitant; provided also that no imposition, duties, or restriction shall be laid by any Commune or Canton, on the property of the Dominion of Ravounel or any other Commune or Canton.

If any person guilty of, or charged with, treason, felony, or other high misdemeanor in any Commune or Canton, shall flee from justice, and be found in any Commune or Canton, they shall, upon demand of the executive power of the Commune or Canton from which they fled, be delivered up and removed to the Commune or Canton having jurisdiction of their offense.

Full faith and credit shall be given in each Commune and Canton to the records, acts, and judicial proceedings of the courts and Justices of every other Commune and Canton.

Article V.

For the purpose of exercising the executive power of Ravounel, viz.: carrying out the government, defense, and foreign relations of Ravounel, the Peers of each Commune and Canton, viz.: for the Commune of Kintargo, the Lord-Mayor; for the Commune of Vyre, such King or Queen as they shall among themselves elect; for the Canton of Ravounel Isles, such King or Queen of Vyre as they shall among themselves elect; for the Canton of Ravounel Forest, the Rokoa of Tastikka; for the Canton of the North Plains the Mayor of Cypress Point; and for the Canton of the Coastal Waters the Speaker of Acisazi, shall meet in Council, personally or if not the Lord-Mayor of Kintargo through duly constituted and appointed commissioners, in Kintargo on the fourteenth day of Neth each year.

Sessions of the Council of Peers shall continue from the fourteenth day of Neth each year through the thirteenth day of Neth the following year. Meetings of the Council of Peers shall be convened, presided over, and adjourned by the Dominus or Domina of Ravounel, who shall be the Lord-Mayor of Kintargo. The presence of a majority of Peers or commissioners, but including the Dominus or Domina, shall be sufficient for the transaction of business.

In determining questions in the Council of Peers, each Commune and Canton shall have one vote and a majority of votes shall determine the question, but the Domina shall break any ties.

The Council of Peers may relieve of its own motion, and shall from time to time appoint with the consent of the Silver Council: officers of the army and navy, and officers of the militias above the rank of Colonel; the heads of such cabinet departments as may be constituted but including departments for war, peace, religion, education, external security, internal security, finance, and justice; ambassadors; and Justices of courts other than those of the Communes.

Freedom of speech and debate in the Council of Peers shall not be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of the Council of Peers, and the Peers and commissioners shall be protected in their persons from arrests or imprisonments, during the time of their going to and from, and attendance at the Council of Peers, except for treason, felony, or breach of the peace. Minutes of meetings of the Council of Peers shall be published no later than thirty days following the close of each session.

Article VI.

Ravounel shall enter into treaties in the name of the Dominus or Domina, on the consent of the Council of Peers and the Kintargo Assembly. No Commune or Canton shall lay any imposts or duties which may interfere with any stipulations in treaties entered into by Ravounel.

No Commune or Canton, without the consent of the Dominus or Domina, shall send any embassy to, or receive any embassy from, or enter into any conference, agreement, alliance or treaty with any foreign State, but consent to send embassies to and receive embassies from Irim and Mirivenn shall not be denied to the Canton of the Coastal Waters and the agreements, alliances, and treaties as between Acisazi on the one part and Irim or Mirivenn on the other part, hitherto existing, continue in force, with the Dominion of Ravounel to assume such rights and duties thereunder as the Council of Peers shall accept.

No two or more Communes or Cantons shall enter into any treaty, confederation, or alliance whatsoever between them, without the consent of the Council of Peers, specifying accurately the purposes for which the same is to be entered into, and how long it shall continue.

No person holding any office of profit or trust under the Dominion of Ravounel, or any Commune or Canton, shall accept any present, emolument, office, or title of any kind whatsoever from any foreign State; nor shall the Dominion of Ravounel, or any Commune or Canton, create any title of nobility.

Each Commune and Canton shall always keep up a well-regulated and disciplined militia of land forces, sufficiently armed and accoutered and provided with officers up to and including the rank of Colonel by election from among the militia, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use, in public stores, a proper quantity of arms, ammunition, and camp equipage; but no vessel of war shall be kept up, nor letters of marque or reprisal granted, by any Commune or Canton, and the upkeep of the army and navy shall be the responsibility of the legislative power, and the garrisoning of forts and granting of letters of marque or reprisal shall be the responsibility of the Council of Peers.

No Commune or Canton shall engage in any war without the consent of the Kintargo Assembly, unless such Commune or Canton be actually invaded by enemies.

Article VII.

All charges of war, and all other expenses that shall be incurred for the common defense or general welfare, and allowed by the Kintargo Assembly, shall be defrayed out of a common treasury, which shall be supplied by the people of each Commune and Canton according to taxes laid and levied by the Kintargo Assembly.

Article VIII.

The Silver Council and Kintargo Assembly shall jointly and exclusively exercise the legislative power of Ravounel, viz: guaranteeing and confirming the rights, privileges, and immunities of citizens and residents of Ravounel; establishing rules for citizenship and naturalization; determining on peace or war; sending or receiving ambassadors; entering into treaties and alliances; regulating trade with foreign States; establishing rules for deciding in all cases, what captures on land or water shall be legal, and in what manner prizes taken by land or naval forces in the service of Ravounel shall be divided or appropriated; establishing rules for the local government of the Baronies and Archbaronies, and chartering Communes, respecting the principle of popular sovereignty; coining money throughout Ravounel and regulating the alloy and value of coin struck by its authority; fixing the standards of weights and measures throughout Ravounel; regulating trade and industry throughout Ravounel; establishing post offices throughout Ravounel and exacting such postage on the papers passing through the same as may be requisite to defray their expenses; determining the salaries of the army, naval, and cabinet department officers, and Justices; ascertaining the necessary budgets to be raised for the army, navy, cabinet departments, courts, and other public expenses; appropriating and applying the same for defraying the public expenses; laying, levying, and collecting taxes; and borrowing money or emitting bills of credit.

In each exercise of the legislative power, the Silver Council shall have the initiative of bills and the Kintargo Assembly shall pronounce decision on bills, but the Kintargo Assembly shall have of its own motion the power to amend bills initiated by the Silver Council. Should the office of Lord-Mayor fall vacant, the Silver Council shall within seven days publish a bill for the election of a Lord-Mayor from among all citizens of Kintargo.

The citizens shall Assemble in Kintargo, from sunup to sundown each day until all questions put to them have been decided, no later than fourteen days following the publication of a bill by the Silver Council for their consideration, but no less frequently than every fourteenth day of Neth every two years for the purpose of electing the Lord-Mayor of Kintargo, and the Justices of Kintargo who shall for the two years following their election have original and en banc appellate jurisdiction over all crimes arising within the Commune of Kintargo and matters arising between a citizen of the Commune of Kintargo and any other person or between any two Communes and Cantons or between a Commune or Canton on the one part and Ravounel on the other or between a Commune or Canton or Ravounel on the one part and any foreign State on the other, and appellate jurisdiction over all other crimes and matters over which any court of Ravounel has jurisdiction, and whose number shall be determined by law.

The Kintargo Assembly shall be presided over by the Council of Peers. In determining questions in Kintargo Assembly, each citizen shall have one vote and a majority of votes shall determine the question, the Council of Peers shall collectively break any ties.

Freedom of speech and debate in the Kintargo Assembly shall not be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of the Kintargo Assembly, and the citizens shall be protected in their persons from arrests or imprisonments, during the time of their going to and from, and attendance at the Kintargo Assembly, except for treason, felony, or breach of the peace.

The Silver Council shall solely and exclusively determine its composition and rules of order, viz.: establishing rules for and deciding upon admissions, salaries, and expulsions of its members but no person shall be a member who is not a citizen of Ravounel, or who is a Peer; deciding upon the durations of its sessions and meetings; and electing from among its members a Speaker to preside over its meetings and the meetings of cabinet and to report to the Council of Peers the minutes and decisions of such meetings and the receipts and disbursements of the government departments, and such other officers as are necessary for the transaction of business.

In determining questions in the Silver Council, each member shall have one vote and a majority of votes shall determine the question, but the Speaker shall break any ties.

Freedom of speech and debate in the Silver Council shall not be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of the Silver Council, and the members shall be protected in their persons from arrests or imprisonments, during the time of their going to and from, and attendance at the Silver Council, except for treason, felony, or breach of the peace. Meetings of the Silver Council shall be public, and minutes of its meetings shall be published no later than seven days following the close of each meeting.

Article IX.

All privileges and immunities proclaimed by the Silver Council before the execution of the present Treaty shall be guaranteed henceforth by law.

All bills of credit emitted, monies borrowed, and debts contracted by, or under the authority of the Silver Council, before the execution of the present Treaty, in pursuance of the present confederation, shall be deemed and considered as a charge against Ravounel, for payment and satisfaction whereof the public faith of Ravounel is solemnly pledged.

Article X.

Every Commune and Canton shall abide by the determinations of the Council of Peers and Kintargo Assembly, on all questions which by virtue of this Treaty are submitted to them. And the Articles of this Treaty shall be inviolably observed by every Commune and Canton, and the Union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them, unless such alteration be agreed to by the Council of Peers and the Kintargo Assembly.

Wherefore know ye that we the undersigned delegates, by virtue of the power and authority to us given for that purpose, do by these presents, in the name of our respective Communes and Cantons, fully and entirely ratify and confirm each and every of the articles of the said Treaty of Confederation, and all and singular the matters and things therein contained: and we do further solemnly plight and engage the faith of our respective Communes and Cantons, that they shall abide by the determines of the Council of Peers and Kintargo Assembly, on all questions, which by the said Treaty are submitted to them. And that the articles thereof shall be inviolably observed by the Communes and Cantons we respectively represent, and that the Union shall be perpetual.

In witness whereof we have hereunto set our hands.

On the part and behalf of the Commune of Kintargo:
LORD-MAYOR JILIA BAINILUS {Seal}
Done at Kintargo the [day] day of [month] in the year [year]

On the part and behalf of the Commune of Vyre:
MANTICCE KALEEKII {Seal}
Done at Vyre the [day] day of [month] in the year [year]

On the part and behalf of the Canton of Ravounel Isles
MANTICCE KALEEKII {Seal}
Done at Vyre the [day] day of [month] in the year [year]

On the part and behalf of the Canton of Ravounel Forest
ROKOA SOLMESTRIA {Seal}
Done at Tastikka the [day] day of [month] in the year [year]

On the part and behalf of the Canton of the North Plains
XERELILAH {Seal}
Done at Cypress Point the [day] day of [month] in the year [year]

On the part and behalf of the Canton of the Coastal Waters
SPEAKER ATHANNAH QUHURILL {Seal}
Done at Acisazi the [day] day of [month] in the year [year]

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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
The constitution I have outlined above is susceptible to being written down. Maybe I'll do that one of these days.

In furtherance of this aim, attached please find a possible text of the Kintargo Contract, to which ultimately the basic law of Ravounel must conform while it at the Cheliax Covenant endure, but which establishes the basis for the unity of Ravounel and the basic town rights of the citizens of Kintargo and Vyre.

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Possible text of the Kintargo Contract, according to the terms laid out in Groves, Parthfinder Adventure Path #101: The Kintargo Contract, at *7 (2015), styled after Infernal Contract #9485784.3728:7845,9888495 reproduced in full at Jacobs, et al., Pathfinder Adventure Path: Curse of the Crimson Throne, Anniversary Edition, at *376 (2016):

The Kintargo Contract:
MATERIAL PLANE, being the FOURTH Incarnation of the THIRD Cycle of Mortality, on file in Fallen Fastness #######,####:####,#######.

This Kintargo Contract is a lawful Agreement between ASMODEUS, King of Hell, by and through ODEXIDIE, Vice Barrister of Terrestrial Prospects, and ABROGAIL THRUNE, Infernal Magestrix of the Mortal Realm of Cheliax (hereinafter the “High Contracting Parties”).

The High Contracting Parties each, jointly and severally, recognize the ancient oaths and pledges of the citizens each of Kintargo and Vyre to their respective common defense, and confirm their necessary rights in furtherance of the exercise thereof: to erect, maintain, and defend circuits of walls around their Communes; to come and go within and without same but to charge tolls at rates determined by law for the entry and exit through same and at ports; and to hold markets therein on days determined by law—and the further rights of the citizens of Kintargo to charter companies for the storage and exclusive trade in salt, fishes, raw stone and finished masonry, and raw and finished silver not coined; to coin money in copper, silver, gold, and platinum denominations according to weights and measures determined by law; to levy and collect taxes on property and to disburse Communal property; and to assemble from time to time for the purpose of electing a Lord-Mayor and Justices to rule according to law.

The High Contracting Parties each, jointly and severally, recognize and confirm the rights of the territories comprising "Ravounel"—viz.: the Communes of Kintargo and Vyre, the North Plains not comprised in Nidal, and the lands of and surrounding Ravounel Forest, bounded jointly by that line which is drawn from the easternmost source of Thrune's Chance Creek to the highest peak of Mount Emihym; thence along the crest of the Menador Mountains which divides the rivers that flow into the Arcadian Ocean from those which flow into the Hellmouth Gulf and the Inner Sea, to the highest peak of Mount Nyisaid; thence along that line which is drawn westerly to the easternmost inlet of the Arcadian Ocean; thence along the shore to the mouth of Thrune's Chance Creek in Nisroch Bay; thence up along the middle of that river to its easternmost source; comprehending all islands within sixty miles of any part of the shores of Ravounel, and lying between a line to be drawn due west from the point where the aforesaid boundary with Hellcoast shall touch the Arcadian Ocean on the one part, and a line to be drawn due north from the point where the aforesaid boundary with Nidal shall touch the Steaming Sea on the other part, excepting such islands as now are, or heretofore have been within the limits of the said Nidal and Hellcoast; and comprehending all waters within 12 miles of any part of the shores of Ravounel—to join with Kintargo in the exercise of its rights and duties upon confirmation of a resident representative who enjoys the acclaim of its people according to law.

The High Contracting Parties each, jointly and severally, recognize and confirm that during their term a Lord-Mayor ratified in their position by a majority of a Board of Governors consisting in plenum of one lineal or adopted descendant each of five families known to the High Contracting Parties may from time to time delegate the duty of the defense of Kintargo and of Ravounel, and the exercise of any or all of the rights enumerated herein, to the High Contracting Parties, jointly or severally, and their respective agents, in furtherance of the purposes, and pursuant to the terms, of the Cheliax Covenant from which this Agreement shall be unseverable—but between terms of a duly ratified Lord-Mayor the High Contracting Parties shall not be obstructed in the exercise of their duly delegated rights throughout Ravounel in furtherance of their duly delegated duties and the purposes of the Cheliax Covenant.

The High Contracting Parties each, jointly and severally, recognize and confirm that a usurpation of the rights of the citizens of Kintargo as enumerated herein shall constitute a breach, and be grounds for termination, of this Agreement.

In code #######,####:####,#######. Subject to ASMODEUS’S veto, honor to his name.

Signed in blood and bound by soul—
ABROGAIL THRUNE {Seal}

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Beckett99 wrote:
I was thinking about Nirmathas and was wondering is nirmathas even organized enough to meet the legal definition of a country cause the only formal position they have is the forest Marshall right?

There is no "legal definition of a country," especially in a system of interstate anarchy without effective supranational institutions like Golarion's. A country is that which other countries recognize as their peer. Oprak at least has concluded treaties with, thus recognized, Nirmathas. I believe Korvosa has as well, as part of the process of settling its border with Nirmathas in the Bloodsworn Vale (part of this is now Korvosa's border with Oprak).

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Probably because Cheliax regards it as a backwater, which is worth exploiting but not worth putting it on equal footing with the actual important regions of Cheliax.

Equality only matters in the context of political representation, which nobody in Cheliax has due to it being an autocracy. Historically, Isger's special status has permitted it to act as an entrepot into Cheliax for Drumish capital and goods otherwise walled off by tariff. There was a brief (two-year?) period of attempted centralization after the Glorious Reclamation, that was put on indefinite hold after Tar-Baphon made his presence felt. Isger's special status currently means both that it both acts as a canary against Grafarian incursion for the Egorian government, and means they don't have to spend part of their budget defending it.

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Elric200 wrote:

Raven Black and Possible Cabbage, you two are confusing taxation vs. the Larger economy. Most of the Inner Sea economies rely on Mercantilism

but still collect taxes as I described above except for Andoran which has tax collectors like the IRS. I would think that most inner Sea governments are similar to pre-civil war England with the exception of Andoran and Katapesh

Marcantilism and tax farming don't go together. To do mercantilism you need a relatively strong state and if you have that administrative apparatus you're going to use it to collect tax.

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Beckett99 wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Beckett99 wrote:
Given how long cheliax and ravounel were one country how so you think they dealt with mutual overlordship? Did they make new cadet houses and give them the lands or do you think they just seized them?
I'm not sure what you mean by "mutual overlordship." Do you mean the problem of some Chelish subjects owning land in Ravounel, and some Ravounel citizens owning land in Cheliax? If so, this isn't actually a problem as long as they all pay their taxes to the state that controls the territory (the frontier is well-defined in the Kintargo Contract).
My concern is that a noble in cheliax with holdings in ravounel could raise an army from their chelaxian lands and use the fact that they are also a ravounel Noble to use that army to fight ravounel because technically they are not invading but simply rebelling against their overlord. Or does the Kintargo contract have clauses that prevent that?

It doesn't, as long as the hypothetical noble isn't an agent of Thrune or the Church of Asmodeus. Y'know what does prevent it? Eighty years of anti-noble Thrune policies that mean that armies in this era have been transformed into state levies (Ravounel will call theirs a citizen militia, no doubt - and this may even be more than an affectation!) and are no longer nested retinues, these having largely atrophied away.

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Beckett99 wrote:
Given how long cheliax and ravounel were one country how so you think they dealt with mutual overlordship? Did they make new cadet houses and give them the lands or do you think they just seized them?

I'm not sure what you mean by "mutual overlordship." Do you mean the problem of some Chelish subjects owning land in Ravounel, and some Ravounel citizens owning land in Cheliax? If so, this isn't actually a problem as long as they all pay their taxes to the state that controls the territory (the frontier is well-defined in the Kintargo Contract).

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The Raven Black wrote:
Since the mere existence of Ravounel comes from the results of an AP, I expect it to get plot armor against the revolutionary trends of the Firebrands for quite some time.

The trouble with that is that the state was created in a revolution that the [proto-]Firebrands made. You'd need to assume some manner of revolutionary betrayal, counter-revolution, or both.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
I do think if they want to follow up on a popular PF1 AP, "let's help Ravounel solve a problem" would be a good choice.

They did that in Age of Ashes.

The Raven Black wrote:
Even Indiana Jones had to fight people that were not Nazis from time to time.

Yeah, in the two worst movies :P

(I can't speak to quality of the TV shows, or the prevalence of Nazis therein.)

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Morhek wrote:
Given the legacy of colonisation, putting a thumb in Cheliax's eye would be an enticing enough prospect, I imagine. But more practically, I'd guess Vidrian would prefer Cheliax to be more focussed on problems closer to home than settling old scores.

But Vidrian doesn't need to commit to a mutual defense pact (with a power that needs Vidrian's military assistance but cannot provide Vidrian any military assistance of its own) to get that from Ravounel. It can get that from Ravounel's bare existence, and given the Cheliax Covenant it does not need to commit its military to securing Ravounel's bare existence. That's the point, it seems like Vidrian is giving up something for nothing.

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As for Ravounel's government, and noting both A.) this is a place where players are meant to determine what government it ends up with, and B.) that I haven't had the chance to read Firebrands yet, the fact that Ravounel is harkening back to Cheliax's pre-Thrune imperial past, and its flag notably includes an olive wreath, I'd guess Ravounel is probably going to end up with something like the Roman Senate and Assemblies ruling its affairs, with a mixture of democratic elections for the Assemblies and permanent Senators from the ruling families, with an elected or appointed Dominus/Domina. An elected Assembly especially sounds like something the Firebrands would champion the existence of, even if the more conservative members of Ravounel's society throw up the Senate as a bulwark against true radical reform.

I'm pretty sure based on the lack of olives and the shape of the leaves that that's a laurel wreath (though the dispersion of leaves is too sparse for either olive or laurel). Ironic for a power that has never had and never will have a military victory, but then, maybe that's the point. In any event, Ravounel's flag owes most to Poland's, design-wise (bicolor, shield, bird).

As for institutions, the following are in evidence. First, the Dominate. See Lost Omens World Guide, at *104. This is clearly a chief executive of some kind, and it's occupied by "Jilia Bainilus, the former Lord-Mayor of Kintargo." Id. That "former" cannot mean she doesn't still hold the position. Not only is a replacement Lord-Mayor never mentioned, Kintargo must maintain the institutions of the Lord-Mayoralty and the Board of Governors for the Kintargo Contract to work. See The Kintargo Contract, at *7 ("only an officially appointed lord-mayor of Kintargo may grant House Thrune and its allies [] permission to enter [Ravounel] en masse. . . . if a properly ratified lord-mayor denies House Thrune permission to intercede, any direct military action against Kintargo or its associated holdings of Ravounel [] terminates the Cheliax Covenant."). This leaves basically three options: 1) the Dominate is the same institution as the Lord-Mayoralty under a different name; 2) the Lord-Mayoralty was subsumed into the Dominate, probably along with the Archduchy (the institution); or 3) the Lord-Mayoralty and the Dominate happen to be held by the same person (as a matter of coincidence or as a matter of necessity). I've been assuming option 3 (necessity variation), but a close reading of The Kintargo Contract suggests it might actually be option 1. See id., at *5 (describing the Lord-Mayor as "the official leader of the city, and technically the leader of Ravounel," despite pre-revolutionary Ravounel being an archduchy led by an archduke); see also Lost Omens World Guide, at *104 ("The Silver Ravens. . . installed Lord-Mayor Bainilus as the leader of this new nation, and worked to unite various factions within Ravounel behind her. Upon attaining office, Lord-Mayor Bainilus chose the title 'Domina,' an old-fashioned honorific that had fallen into disuse after the Chelish Civil War.[1]"). The Lord-Mayor of Kintargo, thus also the Domina, is elected by the people of Kintargo, see In Hell's Bright Shadow, at *7, 8, and ratified by a Board of Governors consisting of five hereditary members. See The Kintargo Contract, at *7.

Second, the federal Council of Peers. See Lost Omens World Guide, at *104 - 05. This is composed of "factions' representatives," id., the factions being: 1) "the wealthy families of Kintargo, who control the shipping concerns, established[2] industries, and domestic trade networks within the new country;" 2) "the aquatic elves of the Dismal Nitch;" 3) "the strix of the Ravounel Forest;" and 4) "the self-styled Kings and Queens of Vyre" who are the most independent-minded. The name of the council suggests that its members are meant to be the Domina's equals, even if she is the first among them.[3] As first among equals, Domina probably presides over meetings of the Council of Peers. The aquatic elves and strix are presumably represented by their Speaker and Rokoa respectively, chosen according to tradition. See Pett, Dance of the Damned, at *12 - 14 (2015); The Kintargo Contract, at *60 - 61, 70 - 72. "Power in Vyre goes to those who can seize and keep it," so presumably the Kings and Queens are those who have seized and hold the loyalty of their relevant Masks. Dance of the Damned, at *67. The Masks would determine their loyalties by internal deliberations and confirm them by election, but each King and Queens selects their Masks so it would take some significant upset for their loyalty to sour. See id., at *66. There is a significant overlap between the Council of Peers as described in the Lost Omens World Guide, supra, and the signatories of the Kintargo Contract: the Council of Peers includes a representative of the Silver Council, infra, who do not appear among the signatories of the Kintargo Contract, and excludes Xerelilah who does. C.f. The Kintargo Contract, at *27 - 28; see also Tomorrow Must Burn, at *19, 24 (Xerelilah appears to have been elevated to the leadership of Cypress Point). If pressed, based on their respective positions as town leaders, I would put Xerelilah on the Council of Peers as representative of the North Plains, and Canton Jhaltero (infra), as representative of the Silver Council. Based on its small size, and the inclusion of the chief executive, I'm fairly certain that the Council of Peers is an executive council jointly exercising the executive power.

Third, the revolutionary Silver Council. This group embraces "the wealthy families of Kintargo," supra, but also committed Silver Raven partisans. It was initially formed at the initiative of Mialari Docur as a kind of underground coordinating committee of the Silver Raven party and transformed itself into the putative government in the course of the uprising against Barzillai Thrune. See Dance of the Damned, at *6. "Who attends the Silver Council" initially "is left to the PCs," id., but presumably it would include the PCs and any of their Allies up to that point: Blosodriette, Laria Longroad, Rexus Victocora, Cassius Sargaeta, Octavio Sabinus, Hetamon Haace, and/or Mialari Docur herself. See In Hell's Bright Shadow, at *51; Shel, Pathfinder Adventure Path #98: Turn of the Torrent, at *61 (2015); Dance of the Damned, at *57. Over the course of Dance of the Damned the list of Allies can expand to include Jilia Bainilus, Manticce Kaleekii, and Tayacet Tiora. See Dance of the Damned, at *57. And it can expand further during the uprising A Song of Silver to include Chuko, Molly Mayapple, Shensen, Jackdaw, and Strea Vestori. See Jacobs, A Song of Silver, at *6 - 7, 63 (2015). Given these families' dominance of the Silver Council as of the advent of the Lost Omens Campaign Setting, it also likely includes Eldonna Aulamaxa, Marquel Aulorian, Belcara Jarvis, Canton Jhaltero, and/or Sendi Vashnarstill. See Dance of the Damned, at *8 - 9; see also Tomorrow Must Burn, at *59 (the Silver Council is "a loose association of Ravounel's noble houses and the wealthiest power brokers in Kintargo"), 62 (Canton Jhaltero is a noted member of the Silver council); but see Tomorrow Must Burn, at *29, 88, and passim (no Aulamaxa, Aulorian, Jarvis, or Vashnarstill is noted to be a member of the Silver Council, "the Vashnarstills" failed to secure a monopoly in negotiations with the Silver Council, Mialari Docur is noted to have left the Silver Council). Dance of the Damned and A Song of Silver illustrate that membership in the Silver Council is self-selected (that is, selected by the PCs), and indeed "[m]any people serving upon [the Silver Council] consider their position to be a reward for backing the correct side." Tomorrow Must Burn, at *59. Tomorrow Must Burn excludes the Kings and Queens of Vyre from the Silver Council; describes Rarrnir, the new Rokoa of Tastikka, meeting with the Silver Council; and describes the elves of Acisazi as seeing themselves apart from Ravounel entirely. See id., at *60, 61. This is probably a description of the Council of Peers by another name. That book is insistent that the Silver Council is a Kintargo municipal institution, see, id., at *5, 25, 29, 57 (characterizing the Silver Council as "lead[ing] Kintargo," being "that city's rul[ers]," "the city's new leadership," and "the leaders of Kintargo"), but the Dominate illustrates that Kintargo municipal and Ravounel state institutions are highly conflated. Based on having directed the uprising against Barzillai Thrune, and thus needing to be in a position to issue proclamations prior to the reinstatement of Jilia Bainilus as Lord-Mayor, I imagine the Silver Council has appropriated to itself the legislative power or at least legislative initiative, including the power of the purse. C.f. Turn of the Torrent, at *6; Dance of the Damned, at *5 (Kintargo's Lord-Mayor possessed the power to levy taxes); Tomorrow Must Burn, at *25 (the Silver Council receives diplomats and conducts treaty negotiations), 29 (the Silver Council charters corporations and grants monopolies), 57 (the Silver Council can disburse funds from the state treasury), 63 (the Silver Council can expropriate property [here from the Church of Asmodeus] and dispose of state property). Its laws may need confirmation, by the popularly-elected Domina, or (following the Roman example you used) by an assembly of the citizens of Kintargo directly.

As an aside, it is not clear who appoints government/cabinet ministers (that is, the people responsible for spending the budgets and overseeing the employees of government departments), or to whom they report. The representative of the Silver Council on the Council of Peers may be accounted the prime minister, in which case he is responsible to the Silver Council that appoints him. The process of choosing other ministers may be consultative between him and the Domina, or may be a matter of appointment by the Council of Peers collectively (probably the latter). There may be a requirement to select or tradition of selecting government ministers from among the Silver Council.

Fourth, the Board of Governors. Having lapsed for the decades between the Civil War and Ravounel's independence, this body appears to have no function outside ratifying the election of Kintargo's Lord-Mayor (thus also the Domina). See, The Kintargo Contract, at *5. It consists of Melodia Delronge, Geoff Tanessen, Raenna Solstine, Carliss Mayhart, and Laria Longroad. See, id., at *19 - 23. It would make a great deal of sense for this body to continue to be sidelined, nearly half composed as it is of outright counterrevolutionaries. See id. Geoff's membership on it does not seem to have protected the Tanessens in their wealth or influence--he may have been reduced in rank from Count to Baron or Archbaron. See Tomorrow Must Burn, at *40. Worth noting is that the only requirement for membership is apparently to be a member of the relevant family--not necessarily its head, though the current members are all family matriarchs and patriarchs. See, The Kintargo Contract, at *5. These Governors were chosen by the Silver Council (read: the Hell's Rebels PCs), and having appropriated that power to itself the Silver Council can presumably replace the Governors from time to time as long as the replacement comes from the same family.

Fifth, the courts. Kintargo's municipal courts and Ravounel's high court sit in the House of Truth and Clarity in Kintargo. See, In Hell's Bright Shadow, at *66; Tomorrow Must Burn, at *63. Nowhere is it stated whether these courts are jury or bench or mixed tribunals, or how judges if there are any are chosen. We may imagine elected judges, or judges appointed by the Domina, or juries selected by lot, or a combination of either appointed or elected judges with juries. A pure jury system is unlikely to my mind. Cheliax makes use of judges, see Moreland, et al., Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Cheliax, the Infernal Empire, at *27 - 28 (2015), and Ravounel would have inherited its legal code. I could see Kintargo's judges being elected, given the citizens' enthusiasm for election. See In Hell's Bright Shadow, at *7, 8. This would actually be in line with your Roman example, with the citizens of Rome (Kintargo) electing as magistrates a consular executive (the Domina) and judicial praetors (judges), and also sitting as jurors from time to time. That we haven't been told of elections taking place is less of a barrier here than elsewhere: we're told precisely nothing about how judges are chosen, practically anywhere. The unelected Silver Council in this scheme is analogous to the unelected Senate, except being composed of ex-revolutionaries rather than ex-magistrates (notably the Senate possessed legislative initiative).

Sixth, the nobility. These appear to be formally charged with most local government (executive administration, legislative rulemaking, and judicial adjudication--all either directly or through appointees), but their exercise of their rights and duties is highly variable and has in several cases been appropriated by the people. Canton Jhaltero, for instance, is hands-on in Whiterock, but Aldonna Aulamaxa is laissez-faire with respect to Cypress Point and appears to have been largely superseded in her role by Xerelilah, who has leadership of the town by acclamation. See Tomorrow Must Burn, at *19, 24, 47; see also Dance of the Damned, at *back inside cover (but note that Canton Jhaltero is described as more hands-off here than he is portrayed in Tomorrow Must Burn). In her role, Xerelilah has overseen, among other things, the municipalization of important enterprises. See Tomorrow Must Burn, at *20; see also In Hell's Bright Shadow, at *29; Turn of the Torrent, at *6 (Kintargo's Lord-Mayor has the power to expropriate and distribute property). None of the loyal nobles other than Marquel Aulorian (who was not the head of his house at the time of Ravounel's independence) is ranked higher than Archbaron. See Dance of the Damned, at *8 - 9. The disloyal Counts and Countesses may have been reduced in rank as punishment, or in the case of the Sarinis, dispossessed entirely.

One would indeed think "an elected assembly. . . sounds like something the Firebrands would champion the existence of," but they don't. But going back to the Roman example, its assemblies weren't elected, but composed directly of all citizens who happened to show up (albeit these were segregated into voting blocs and blocs' votes were weighted by class). If the Kintargo assembly speculated about supra does in fact constitute the electorate for the Domina and justices, and does ratify laws, and if Kintargan citizenship has been extended to all of Ravounel's people, and if citizens' votes are not weighted by class, such an assembly would fill the democratic niche in Ravounel's constitution. Being directly composed of citizens it would obviate the need for an elected legislative chamber (and also explain why Silver Ravens don't run in legislative elections - the directly-democratic assembly obviates the need for them). Likewise, if a citizens' assembly is the electorate for justices, along with the Domina, and votes are not weighted by class, the courts and the Dominate become popular institutions. Such an assembly is feasible given Ravounel's small size (no point in Ravounel is more than about 200 miles from Kintargo), low population (circa 150 thousand, supra), and high rate of urbanization (circa 20 percent, supra). Even the population that lives outside Kintargo is mostly clustered around Yolubilis Harbor and the river below Whiterock. The populations that aren't include the aquatic elves and strix who live away west, but they are protected by the Council of Peers, and being able to swim and fly can travel to Kintargo more easily than most if they want to vote in the assembly (the aquatic elves at least probably do not, judging by the description supra). The truly excluded populations would be the giants and orcs of the Menador Mountains, the goblins of Cape Dis, and the small farmers of the upper Yolubilis and the North Plains, who all have much more of a problem travelling. The trouble is, outside of brief references to elections of the Lord-Mayor in In Hell's Bright Shadow, the existence of this assembly is almost wholly speculative; the stipulations that require it to be a democratic force (universal citizenship, equal suffrage) are entirely so. They can only be inferred by presuming that the Silver Ravens/Firebrands are pro-democracy, and from their failure despite this to advocate for more democracy in Ravounel's constitution.

The constitution I have outlined above is susceptible to being written down. Maybe I'll do that one of these days.

[1] It was also the name of one of Korvosa's most effective and centralizing monarchs.
[2] "Established" here means "state-chartered," that is to say, a corporation, e.g., Sunset Imports. Not necessarily a joint-stock company.
[3] Making the Dominate an utter misnomer - it should be a Principate. Maybe this was also ironic?

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Then again, if my group had ever gotten that far we were planning to overthrow the rich and establish the People's Republic of Ravounel. :P

Good on your players. But "People's Republic" is a class-collaborationist nationalist slogan - hence I've gone with "social republic" as a description of a state with more or less socialist commitments (i.e., to socializing (collectivizing, municipalizing, or nationalizing) property, all of which Ravounel does in canon; and to redistributing wealth). Based on the name of the chief executive, in canon the state is almost certainly styled the "Dominion of Ravounel."

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Darth Game Master wrote:
Granted in this case there sort of was, Firebrands. I'll have to check my PDF of that, don't remember if it went over the current government system of Ravounel in detail)

It doesn't, really. It notes that the Silver Ravens'/Firebrands' activity in Ravounel is limited to "restoring damages from the rebellion, uplifting struggling communities, and bringing issues of unfairness, exploitation, or conspiracy to those in power, such as the Silver Council and Domina Jilia Bainilus," but does not note any agitation for democratization of Ravounel's institutions, or running candidates for [hypothetical] election. Beck et al., Pathfinder Lost Omens Firebrands, at *19 (2023). It pays rather more attention to the Silver Ravens' work with other Firebrands, and outside Ravounel, and to Ravounel's foreign relations, than to Ravounel's domestic politics or institutions. See id., at *32 - 33, 111.

If Rexus Victocora's manifesto "The Dual Tyrannies of Crown and Currency," see Firebrands, at *6 - 7, is taken as representative of Silver Raven politics, one might well say of it what Engels said of the Erfurt Program: "The political demands of the draft have one great fault. It lacks precisely what should have been said." Rexus calls his party "committed to destroying all vestiges of slavery. . . overthrowing dictators and uncaring monarchs. . . [and] defending those who are persecuted, especially the poor, ill, and all those who are tyrannized for their very personhood," and says it wants "a world where we have control over our own lives, where we are not subjected to the miseries of poverty, debt, prison, and other tools of tyrants." Firebrands, at *7. A more comprehensive list of social-republican demands (indeed, evidence of the transition of the revolutionary movement from radical to social democracy) could hardly have been asked of Paizo (who I would not expect under any circumstances to include, say, demands for the nationalizations of important lands and industries even if they occasionally portray cooperative enterprises). But it omits their logical prerequisite: the democratic republic. And the Silver Ravens, having the gratitude and the ear of the state, see Firebrands, at *19, have not the excuse of circumstances demanding caution over raising the demand for the democratic republic. Rexus might be presuming that Ravounel is a democratic republic (presumably its leaders are not "dictators" or "monarchs"), which speaks either to stunning omissions by the writers of every book to have broached the topic of Ravounel's institutions so far (the World Guide, Legends, Firebrands, Tomorrow Must Burn, &c.) or quite poor political judgment on Rexus's part. In one of two ways: if Ravounel is not a democratic republic, then the Silver Ravens are abdicating their duty as a social-democratic party by failing to advocate for the democratization of its institutions; if Ravounel is a democratic republic, the Silver Ravens are abdicating their duty as a social-democratic party by only "bringing issues. . . to those in power" rather than contesting for power themselves in elections and using that power to implement the listed social-republican demands.

As an aside, other than the limited legitimacy afforded by the recognition of another young state (which can be had from more established powers like Andoran, Osirion, and Absalom), what does Vidrian get out of its alliance with Ravounel?

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Temperans wrote:
You are using the wrong dates. Golarion is around the 1700s or early-1800s. Possibly even mid-1800s given how many revolutions are taking place.

Fair enough. I've used those comparators before (and contributed to the threads you're referring to), but used an earlier one here to give a slightly less huge population mismatch. And more importantly for using Portugal as a comparator, one that predates the bulk of the colonial empire. Seeing as how Ravounel doesn't have one.

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Elric200 wrote:
Zimmerwald it took the US 11 years to ratify the US Constitution and in 1789 Delaware was the first state to elect Representatives Remember the Senate was 2 Senators that were appointed by the state. So cut Ravounel a little Slack.

It did not "take 11 years to ratify the US constitution." The Articles of Confederation (for a country of 2.4 million people as opposed to 150 thousand, 430 thousand square miles as opposed to 33 thousand, and thirteen federal subjects as opposed to five) were debated over the course of nineteen months and ratified in November 1777. The debate begin immediately upon declaration of independence, not waiting for years. The 1789 constitution was then debated and drafted over the course of five months in 1787 (May - September), was ratified by sufficient states in June 1788, and superseded the Articles (which had continued in force from 1777 and throughout this whole process) in 1789. Whiggishly claiming this whole process from 1777 to 1789 was part of the drafting of the 1789 constitution is absurd and counterfactual.

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Remember Ravounel is not a democratic or federal republic

It is explicitly a confederation. See Lost Omens World Guide, at *96. And the fact that it is not a democratic republic is precisely the problem that will undermine it legitimacy-wise. As you say, Andoran (and Galt, and Vidrian with which Ravounel has a putative alliance much good it does either of them) are democratic republics, so contrary to your claim, there are certainly models. And even setting aside the Lost Omens World Guide's setting-forth of its citizens' demands for a social republic, and the logical need for a democratic republic to realize this demand, Ravounel has a both a democratic party and anarchists in evidence. See Frasier, Pathfinder Adventure Path #97: In Hell's Bright Shadow, at *8 (2015).

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I could see Ravounel evolving into 2 city states each with its own form of government independent from the other but working together in foreign affairs.

That is something of a failure state.

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(To give those numbers further context, Ravounel's geopolitical position was compared upthread to Portugal's, and indeed the land area is similar: 33 thousand square miles of land area for Ravounel vs. 36 thousand for Portugal. But Portugal had about 1 to 1.1 million people in about 1400 (page 12), a year I think is a reasonable comparator, to Ravounel's 150 thousand. Lisbon had about 60 thousand people in 1400, to Kingargo's 12 thousand, but Ravounel is significantly more urbanized than Portugal was. About 19 to 20 percent of Ravounel's people live in Kintargo and Vyre, while only about 4 to 5 percent of Portuguese lived in cities of 10,000 or more in 1400.)

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Elric200 wrote:
Zimmerwald you asking a great deal of Ravounel to set up a standing government in less than 2 years.

The state had been independent for two years by the initial run of setting books (independence 4017, Lost Omens Campaign Setting base year 4019). It has been four years since then, for a total of six. In all that time, Ravounel has had a government, and a functioning government. It has not, however, had a single election, either for the legislature (which is still the self-selected provisional revolutionary council) or the chief executive (who was last elected in the days of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting), or the remainder of the federal/executive council (who likewise persist from the Pathfinder Campaign Setting except for the rokoa of Tastikka), or most importantly for a constituent assembly to come up with a basic law. In fact it does not have a basic law at all, instead persisting under the "provisional" government. Drafting a basic law does not take six years. If anything, the two years that passed since 4017 is a reasonable timeframe. Pennsylvania adopted its first state (ex-colonial) constitution in September 1776, less than three months after the colonies' Declaration of Independence. France's Constitutional Committee took longer, a little over two years from 1789 to 1791, to come up with its first constitution. Russia's Congress of Soviets adopted a constitution in July 1918 - nine months after November 1917 and eighteen months after February 1917 - and that was after the election and dispersal of the constituent assembly. Chile's constituent assembly drafted the recently-rejected constitution in less than two years over 2021 - 22.

Even the constitution of the People's Republic of China, for a gigantic country of over 500 million people and over 3.7 million square miles, took five years from the implementation of the provisional constitution in 1949 to be enacted in 1954. Ravounel covers a land area of about 33 thousand square miles,[1] and has a population of about 150 thousand souls.[2] It should not be taking longer.

[1] 355 land hexes * 93.53 square miles / hex.
[2] (355 land hexes + 110 water hexes) * 250 people / hex + 33,000 people in listed settlements--the 250 people / hex figure comes from Rivers Run Red; the listed settlements are Kintargo (11,800 => 12,000), Vyre (17,300), Cypress Point (1,850), Whiterock (1,500), Acisazi (146), and Tastikka (59).

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Kasoh wrote:

Ravounel also has the problem of needing the Council of Governors or whatever it is called of specific landed noble families to maintain the protections from Cheliax in the Kintargo Contract. Granted we don't know exactly how it works, but this board needs to ratify the Lord Mayor who can deny permission for Cheliax to deploy forces in Ravounel and if Cheliax does so, the entire Chelaxian Compact is voided.

That was the only reason the nation can exist at all because Cheliax cannot do much directly and Abrogail opted to negotiate instead.

Ravounel has a vested interest in making sure these lines have proper heirs and clean lines of inheritance, which will lead to problematic concerns when it comes time to take away their wealth and status when they are physical cornerstones of the entire nation's security against their diabolic neighbor to the south. Its also their biggest weakness as Cheliax could coerce or buy these people down the line as well.

"A clear inheritance" is not necessarily "a big inheritance" or "an intact inheritance as counted from [some date]."

Furthermore, we do know quite a bit about how the Board of Governors works, and the only property qualification it cares about is owning the right to sit on the Board of Governors. This is not tied to the ownership of any other property. Laria Longroad was able to stand for the Urvises on the basis of an ancestor's inheritance of the family's rights despite being a former slave and possessing not a sliver of the Urvis property. See The Kintargo Contrat, at *23. Likewise Carliss Mayhart was a pauper-aristocrat renting a small apartment in Villegre, all the Mayhart lands having been lost long ago. See id., at *20. That the Delronges and Tanessens were permitted to retain their stuff was not a legalistic matter of property qualification, it was a political matter of needing their votes for a super-majority on the Board (not even a majority - this could have been had with Solstine, Mayhart, and Urvis support alone).

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The Raven Black wrote:
I guess the elven kingdoms would disagree.

They probably would--and they would also disdain the notion that a social alignment towards Chaos implies a political constitution based on the democratic republic. Kyonin is an autocracy. See Thorne, et al., Pathfinder Lost Omens Legends, at *106 - 07 (2020). Ironically, in attempting to align their elves away from Tolkien, Paizo has stumbled upon the quite Tolkienian concept of "anarchic monarchy," the idea of an absolute but laissez-faire and personalist sovereign.

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Beckett99 wrote:
What does being democratic have to do with a state's ability to operate competently?

A new state must cultivate legitimacy, which is not merely won through "competent" good-government. The citizens of Ravounel broadly demand that "its wealth and prestige [] be shared more equitably" than they were under Cheliax, and "are determined to build Ravounel into a fairer and kinder society." Sutter et al., Pathfinder Lost Omens World Guide, at *105 (2019). That is to say, the popular classes demand redistribution of wealth. But "the wealthy families of Kintargo [] control the shipping concerns, established industries, and domestic trade networks within the new country." Id., at *104. In order to win the demand for a social republic, the popular classes must upend the power of the Kintargo bourgeoisie (I'm including here both "true" burghers like Kohl Draksitus, as well as bourgeois aristocrats on the English model like Houses Jhaltero and Jarvis; proper rentierism was largely broken by the counter-nobility policy of the Thrune government since the Chelish Civil War), which dominates the Silver Council. That cannot happen as long as membership in the Silver Council remains a privilege conferred by adherence to the revolutionary provisional government, and is not conferred by universal, equal, and direct suffrage in regular and frequent elections, with delegates subject to immediate recall and imperative mandates. See Lundeen, et al., Pathfinder Adventure Path #147: Tomorrow Must Burn, at *59 (2019) (the Silver Council "was assembled during the rebellion that created Ravounel, replacing the city's former Court of Coin, and many people serving upon it consider their position to be a reward for backing the correct side."). And it cannot happen as long as every parochial interest is protected from democratic pressure in a federal Council of Peers. See Lost Omens World Guide, at *104 - 05. Andoran and Galt have enough problems instituting social reform even equipped with such singular and elected assemblies--Ravounel, without even elections and burdened with a federal council (and also the Board of Governors which by necessity contains open counterrevolutionaries Melodia Delronge and Geoff Tanessen (see Groves, Pathfinder Adventure Path #101: The Kintargo Contract, at *20, 22 (2015)), who are largely confirmed in their property rights even if "the Tanessen family's allegiance to House Thrune cost them dearly," Tomorrow Must Burn, at *40[1]), has no chance. In so many words, the road to legitimacy for Ravounel, grounded in a social republic, runs through the democratic republic. The longer the democratic republic (thus also the social republic) is denied the citizens, the less able the state will be to defend itself from foreign sabotage with popular support. The terms of the Cheliax Covenant and Kintargo Contract shall be no defense.

[1] That the class red lines of the Kintargo bourgeoisie include protecting property rights generally (that is to say, eschewing redistribution) but not necessarily patronage of any particular enterprise can be seen from the case of House Vashnarstill, which was confirmed in its property rights but denied government subsidy for its business. See Tomorrow Must Burn, at *28 - 29.

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Beckett99 wrote:
Temperans wrote:
Beckett99 wrote:
How does being poorly organized but you on the level of galt. Galt was being manipulated by a conqueror worm.

Galt is a great example, but fine the river kingdoms.

The point remains: unorganized == bad government == bad country. Great for individuals, sometimes.

The Nirmathi would object to that very strongly.

The Nirmathi's opinions will deserve consideration when they don't have half their country annexed.

But the problem with Ravounel's state isn't "disorganization," it's decentralization and especially an extreme democratic deficit.

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Rysky wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
keftiu wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
keftiu wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Baronsquee wrote:
I think that Oprak is a little too evil for my purposes.
How so? The only evil they were ever confirmed to do is run their war economy on slave labor, and that has not continued.
"All they did was support their war effort with slave labor" is not a sentiment expected from you, I have to admit.
That was a past event, not a current one, is the point. If Oprak is currently too evil for Baronsquee, presumably it's because of something it's actually doing.
That was six years ago. The people responsible are still in power.
So are the Pactmasters, and Qadira's satrap, they get passes.

Passes for what? You're the one who brought them up just now.

Running societies which are acceptable or which may be made acceptable through reform without a change in power. But if you want to restrict things to societies that have been mentioned in this thread, New Thassilon is ruled by a slaver and an ex-slaver.

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
The question is can they produce anything that somebody in Arcadia wants.

Highly doubtful, other than silver specie and maybe those crystals that could be found on Deepmar if extraction is ever started up again. Arcadia is generally more developed economically and technologically, and richer-resourced, than anywhere in Avistan.

Ravounel is in a position to dominate the Varisian Run trade as middlemen and should have willing trade partners in Magnimar, Korvosa, and especially Vidrian (each a peer power one of which is a military and political ally), but isn't noted to be trading with any of them.

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Beckett99 wrote:
Korvosa is bigger then kintargo

Barely. And a bit more than half the population of Kintargo and Vyre combined.

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