xris's page

LEVELING UP

---Hit Points (pg. 16): Roll your hit dice and add this score to your hit points. You may also add your CON modifier to this score; if your CON modifier is zero or below you are still awarded +1 hit point each level.

Couple of points when reading this.

(1) "You may also add your CON modifier..", there is no "may" about this, you must add your CON modifier be it positive or negative. Your wording suggests this is optional, as in if you did have a -1 modifier then you don't have to factor it in.
(2) The wording also suggests that you gain an additional +1 HP each level minimum on top of your dice roll (no matter what you CON modifier is). My understanding is that you will always gain 1 hit point at worst (not an additional +1 hit point per level at worst).

LEVELING UP

---Hit Points (pg. 16): Roll your hit dice and add your CON modifier, even if negative, to the roll (as a minimum you will always gain at least 1 hit point each level). Add this score to your Hit Points.

Many thanks.

On your second point it's just a matter of casual wording I think.

Yes, I was wondering if that was the case. Cheers.

A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the wizard's level

I'm unsure if the spell cast using your bonded object counts toward your available spell slots?

The PRD states that while the spell doesn't need to be prepared, it is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard. This seems to suggest that it counts as one of your spells of the day as it "is treated like any other spell cast".

Is this correct or is it an additional spell?

while a bonded object is an item a wizard can use to cast additional spells or to serve as a magical item.

This suggests that the bonded object gives "additional spells", but I'm not sure why it says "spells" instead of "spell" (or is this an extension of one of the additional core rulebooks?).

And lastly, why does it say "or to serve as a magical item". Why can't it "cast additional spells and to serve as a magical item".

Very basic questions but would welcome any help. Cheers.

Why not ask your GM?

BTW, you get +1 Ability increase at 4th level I believe (BB or Core). Also 18+2+1=21, so even if there is a limit of 21 there should be no reason why this isn't allowed.

And why are you posting yet another generic pathfinder thread in the Beginner Box forum?

Sean, Quandary, many thanks for your replies.

Going by what Quandary posted above (along with other similar posts I've seen) I'm tempted to simply combine the Spellcraft and Knowledge:Arcana into one.

I'm also tempted to remove the auto-identify from Detect Magic in the BB rules. It seems odd that the BB rules actually take the time and space to explain how to use Spellcraft to identify magic items only to then say it's totally unneeded. I think it would be more fun to include the requirement for the check.

So far, we have found the Knowledge skills somewhat under-used so it will give a boost to the use of Knowledge:Arcana from mostly using it to infrequently identify constructs, dragons and magical beasts. Using this skill to identify certain monsters as well as magic items gives it some focus and a reason to build the skill up.

I'm sure the players in my group would not object to this. I think there's some "enjoyment" to see if you can identify a magic item along with the knowledge that you might fail. Knowing that you might not be able to identify a potion, for example, brings some tension into the game without it being a show-stopper.

Many thanks for the suggestions above for examples of when Knowledge:Arcana could be applied (from the GM standpoint). I will try to introduce more of these scenarios into the game from now on. Great stuff!

Detect magic ALLOWS you to make a Spellcraft check to identify the properties of a magic item. Identify spell gives you a +10 on that check.

You still need to make a spellcraft check, detect magic does not just give you the properties without a roll.

While this is true when using the core rules, it isn't the case for the Beginner Box rules.

BB rules do not require a Spellcraft check to use Detect Magic, Identity does't exist within BB rules.

I'm not sure I understand the use (or need) for the Spellcraft Skill in BB. What am I missing?

As far as I can tell, Detect Magic is a better way to identify potions, scrolls, wands or any magic item. No need for Spellcraft here is there?

Spellcraft can be used to identify a spell that's being cast but I don't understand how this knowledge can be of use within the BB framework. There's no concept of casting counterspells in BB.

My players are wondering why they should put skill points into Spellcraft and at the moment I can't give them a satisfactory answer.

I hope this is helpful.

It was indeed, many thanks.

If you can't prepare 2nd-level spells at your wizard level, then it doesn't matter if you have one copied into your book—you can't prepare it until your level is high enough to give you access to those levels of spells.

Or, to put it another way: your number of spells per day of that level is "none," so it doesn't matter if your spellbook has 0 spells of that level or 100... you don't have any place in your brain to put them. :)

Thanks, that clears it up!

Shame the wording on page 52 of the BB GMG didn't include something along the lines of...
"Once the spell is copied, it is part of your spellbook, and from then on, every time you prepare spells you can prepare that spell from the spellbook as long as you are at the appropriate level."
:)

Lets say the wizard does copy the spell.

How is he going to cast it? He still needs 3rd level spell slots.

As I mention in my OP.

To me, the text on page 52 of the Game Master's Guide suggests that he can.

"Once the spell is copied, it is part of your spellbook, and from then on, every time you prepare spells you can prepare that spell from the spellbook."
This seems to suggest that it over-rides the usual limitation that a wizard needs to be at 3rd-level before he can prepare a 2nd-level spell (and so on).

I can't see anything in the BB rules that actually mention "x level spell slots". All I can find is that you prepare spells from your spellbook. The rules on page 52 (GMG) and page 26 (HH) seem to tell me that I can prepare any spell from my spellbook. There is also the case that while it can function as a 3rd-level spell, as a 1st-level wizard I'm only casting a 1st-level version of it (e.g. Fireball doing 1d6 damage instead of 5d6).

I have no issue if that's the case but I find the BB rules unclear. I suspect it's because "everyone knows what's meant" but I'm relatively new to PF so I don't have the experience as to what's gone on before :)

If a wizard copies a spell into his spellbook, can he prepare and cast it even if he isn't at the required level?

For example, at the end of the introductory Beginner Box adventure, a Scroll of Fireball is part of the treasure. It seems clear that a wizard of any level can copy the Fireball scroll into his spellbook but can a wizard lower than 5th-level now prepare this spell and cast it, as in, can a 1st-level wizard now cast a 3rd-level spell?

To me, the text on page 52 of the Game Master's Guide suggests that he can.
"Once the spell is copied, it is part of your spellbook, and from then on, every time you prepare spells you can prepare that spell from the spellbook."
This seems to suggest that it over-rides the usual limitation that a wizard needs to be at 3rd-level before he can prepare a 2nd-level spell (and so on).

If he can't prepare a high-level spell previously copied into his spellbook, then I'm wondering why the BB includes the rules for copying scrolls, it doesn't seem worth the complication. Yes, it means he gets an extra spell into his spellbook eventually but it will be a while before he could make use of it. Even without copying the scroll it would be available when the wizard reaches the appropriate level.

If he can, then clearly he would only be able to cast Fireball dealing 1d6 damage as a 1st-level wizard. When the wizard becomes 2nd-level then it would do 2d6 damage but it would still only count as a 1st-level spell. When the wizard becomes 3rd-level then it would do 3d6 damage but then would count as a 2nd-level spell. Actually, this begs the question if a wizard can in fact prepare a higher level spell at a lower level (and it counting as a lower level spell).

I can see the intent of the rule to mean either so I'm unsure how the rule is meant to work. Please bear in mind I'm working from the Beginner Box rules, not the full rules. Thanks.

Many thanks MTCityHunter, that's a good start.

Acid and especially Alchemist's Fire are affordable for low level parties, and they should generally make it a point to have a couple on hand to deal with swarms. They are very effective, especially AF with its burn damage combined with the +50% damage. A couple hits should suffice most of the time.

Ah yes, I forgot that ordinary effects such as AF, fire and acid would also have the +50% damage bonus.

What about the Reflex saving throw (when using AF) or splash effects (AF and Acid). Do people bother with these?

As for targeting flying swarms, its pretty much a non-issue, at least indoors (and dungeons are where swarms are most deadly). Just hit the ceiling above them to rain fiery death down from above. In game terms, I'd still run that as targeting the swarm itself, just using the environment as logical explanation of events. Really though, things like Alchemist's Fire thrown in to the heart of a swarm ought to break, even mid air, as it hits and is hit by several individuals in quick succession.

Good point, based on this I think I'll let the PCs use AF in this way.

Just look out for low-level swarms with energy immunities .... It really sucks to find out the swarm chasing you is unaffected by the wizards chosen AoE.

Given the group are beginners to RPGs, I'm not going to throw anything like that at them. If need be, I'll stick to bats and spiders and maybe later ants, rats, centipedes and wasps. Certainly, only those from the first Bestiary Book.

Fire works well against most swarms. Magical or normal. In many cases the best thing to do about swarms is to just ignore them and walk away.

Trouble with just Oil is that it doesn't do that much damage, only 1d3 (+50%). It's only going to affect the swarm once really, no reason it would stick around in the area on fire.

As you say, walking (or running) away is a good option, except most swarms seem to be able to move faster than the PCs :)

I'm a new GM and have recently introduced Pathfinder (Beginner Box) to my games group. I plan to slowly introduce more core rules and creatures into the game and having just played and finished Crypt of the Everflame the PCs (currently at level 2) ran into swarms for the first time.

The question I have are what methods are there for low level characters to deal with swarms?

I searched the forums and there have been a number of threads on this subject (in particular this thread from a couple of years ago, Dealing with a swarm when you have no choice). As a GM I would like to ensure I understand the methods used to deal with diminutive and tiny swarms, particularly in context of low level characters who may not have the equipment or spells to deal with them effectively. I don't want to be throwing more swarms at the PCs until they have some chance to be able to deal with them.

I understand that for diminutive and tiny swarms they are immune to all weapon damage and that swarms take an additional 50% damage from spells and effects that affect an area. What I would like are some examples of spells and splash weapons that would damage swarms (at least those that low levels PCs could use). Here's my current understanding.

Burning Hands would seem to work (and at +50%) but would the swarm get a Reflex saving throw for half damage (given the size of swarms)?
What about Magic Missile, Ray of Frost, Acid Arrow or Scorching Ray? I assume they all targets single creatures making them ineffective.
What about Sleep? Swarms such as bats and rats don't have hive minds so I guess that's out.

Alchemist's Fire. Would a swarm (even a mindless one such as spiders) get a DC15 Reflex saving throw to avoid the follow-on 1d6 damage?
Torches only deal one point of fire damage, you ignore the 1d3 damage, so that makes them pretty useless.
Oil and Acid can be used but what about against flying swarms such as bats? This applies to Alchemist's Fire as well, it's unlikely the flask would conveniently break in mid-air if thrown into a bat swarm.

Any comments on the above are welcome? Are there other recommendations on how to deal with swarms?

Sorry, I have an unfortunate tendency to go into Advice mode in the Rules Questions forum, and vice-versa. ;) I can't picture doing the somatic components with the same hand holding the scroll. I'd say that they need both hands free; a buckler is fine for holding the scroll, maybe a light shield, nothing more than that.

No problem, thanks to you and Jeraa for pointing me in the right direction.

So this just leave a slight question mark concerning the number of hands required when using the scroll.

The characters in question (Cleric and Wizard) typically would be using scrolls while holding the following equipment.

Wizard - Holding a quarterstaff in one hand. While the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, the Wizard would typically only be using one hand to hold it. If the quarterstaff is used as a weapon, the player has been using Hand of the Apprentice which only requires the one hand it seems.

Should I allow the Wizard to be able to retrieve a scroll from his backpack and then use it without the need to drop the quarterstaff? Being able to do this would take the Move Action and Standard Action.

Cleric - She now has a light shield (which does allow you to carry something in the shield hand) and typically carries a scimitar in the other hand.

The cleric would have to drop either the shield or scimitar (but not both) to retrieve the scroll from her backpack. If she drops the scimitar then could she hold the scroll in the shield hand, would that be OK? Drop an item is a Free Action, so the rest could be done during a Move Action and Standard Action.

You do have to decipher the scroll, but it does not have to be done when you cast it. You can decipher a scroll and use it days later. Once you decipher a scroll, it stays that way (for you). And since Read Magic (if you have it) can be cast at will in Pathfiner, you can easily decipher any scroll right after you find it, an so don't have to decipher it when you want to use it later.

Ahhh, good point. I hadn't considered that. I assumed that you needed the Read Magic spell to be currently active to allow a scroll to be read just prior to being used! OK, that makes a lot of sense and makes scrolls easier to use :)

OK, thanks everybody. I have a better understanding of Scrolls now.

Don't forget that I'm only using the Beginner Box rules for PF so a lot of the stuff mentioned isn't relevant yet but thanks for the pointers all the same. One thing I do note is that in BB the wands come with 10 charges, not 50. This makes them easier to obtain since, for example, a Wand of Magic Missile costs 150 GP.

So, in summary.
You only require one hand to retrieve an item from your backpack.
When casting, you don't need one hand to hold the scroll and the other to gesticulate, one hand will do for both.
I'm going to allow a Wand to be "holstered", if it is then I would count it as drawing a weapon.

I want to ensure I understand the requirements when using a Scroll, i.e. actions required, number of free hands, and so on.

I'm new to PF and my knowledge is limited to the BB rules. Is the following correct?

You first need to retrieve the scroll (say, from your backpack, so I assume doing so requires both hands?), this takes a Move Action.

You then would need to read the scroll, so before you can do this you would need to cast Read Magic on yourself. Use of the Read Magic Cantrip/Orison would take a Standard Action. Since Read Magic has a duration of minutes this can be done sometime previously, it can be done on a turn previous to retrieving the scroll but it does need to be done prior to reading the scroll.

Now you read the scroll and this takes another Standard Action. I assume you will need both hands free, one to hold the scroll and the other to make the magic gestures (I assume you still need to make gestures for a scroll). Could you hold the scroll in your shield hand, or do both hands need to be free?

In addition, you need to be able to concentrate, so no enemy must be adjacent when reading the scroll (or for that matter, when you cast Read Magic on yourself).

Is the above correct. It seems making use of scrolls during combat rather limited. It takes at least two turns (a Standard Action, a Move Action and then another Standard Action) and during this time you must not be adjacent to an enemy. You also need both hands free, so you can't be holding a weapon or shield at all. If you had to drop your weapon, quarterstaff for example, then you need another Move Action to pick it up again.

What about the requirements for using a Wand?

I would assume that drawing a Wand is akin to drawing a Weapon (so if you have an Attack Bonus of +1 then it's possible to move as well), and requires only one hand. It wouldn't need the Read Magic prerequisite either and you would need only the one hand to cast the spell using the wand (since I assume the hand holding the wand is used to make the magic gestures). You don't have to worry about an enemy being adjacent when using a wand either.

Given this, a wand seems a much, much better solution than a scroll :) and they are cheaper. While this statement might seem obvious, I just to want check I understand it all.

Anyway, would welcome any comments or advice on the above. This is from the perspective of a GM, what should I allow?

Would both hands need to be free to retrieve something (like a scroll, potion and maybe wand) from your backpack?

Thanks, both Ring of Protection and Cloak of Resistance are in the BB Game Master's Guide.

As you say, sounds like a typo. I will go with Cloak of Resistance then, cheers.

On page 90 of the BB Game Master's Guide it lists that a "Cloak of Protection +1, cost 1,000 GP" is available for purchase while at Sandpoint.

What's a Cloak of Protection? I don't seem to be able to find it anywhere in the BB content.

On page 12 of the BB Welcome to the GM Kit free download it lists a number of new Potions, Scrolls and Wands (such as Bane, Grease, Water Walk, etc) but no descriptions of these items are given.

Is this just a tease to encourage the purchase of the core rules :)

Edit: OK, found out the answer to my second question. Was in the Player Pack free download. Oops. Still Don't know what a Cloak of Protection is.

Many thanks.