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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber. 2,757 posts. No reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist.


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I like it when my player have characters that excel in few things each. That's kind of the point. Fighters should excel in melee or ranged or both.

Where I find the excelling a problem is in skill points. It's not that the players excel but that the player don't. Quite often I have players don't have the right skills at level capable of hitting the DC in knowledge check given in some Adventure Paths.

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wraithstrike wrote:

It's been that way for over a decade now, and I(as a player) never found much wonder in magic items, and a lot of players feel that way. Making them rare doesn't translate to "more special" for everyone.

For the players that do see them as special, giving them something that is not in any official book still makes their eyes twinkle. What I plan to do next time I run a campaign is to use the unchained rules that allow enhancement bonuses to be built into the character. That way they can spend gold on magic items for the "cool factor" vs the "need factor".

You know I find a problem, the amount of +1 weapons around at high level.

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I don't want 2.0. That means starting over again. I've done that too much with game systems and it's annoying having to start with basics again and wait for option to come out in the same books repeated.

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Mulet wrote:

My party is in the Fey, and started a blood feud with the Centaurs that live there. The Centaur's have asked for the help of an Erlking (CR18) against my APL9 party.

They are MEANT to run away, and have a chase scene where they escape it. Currently they are saying:

"We can take it".

I need them to FEAR it, and choose to run. And I have 5 minutes to fix this at the start of the session, or it's a party wipe.

(Note: I know Centaurs are not meant to be Fey, I changed them because they originate in Greek mythology. Just like Nymphs and Satyrs.)

Let them try. APL 9 then won't be able to hit the thing unless they are specialized at hit fey like ranger with favored enemy fey. At best you might have a +24 to hit. So a 50% change to miss, when they do hit a 20% chance. That thing has speed on it's side and can heal it's self. So let them see the Erking doesn't see them as threat. Then have the earlking send a bunch of summoned centaurs after them.

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I have had alchemist in my game and never found them to be problem. They can nova pretty good but run out resources fast. In tough fight they can use up all their bombs. Next encounter I can through weak opponents and still challenge the party as the alchemist out of resources.

So days encounters might APL equal, APL+1, APL+2, APL+1, APL+1 by the 3rd encounter the alchemist is out of bombs.

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This shouldn't be a problem typically. The wealth by level guidelines limit you for 25% on weapons, 25% on armor, 25% other 15% consumables, and 10% non magical gear. What remains is left over gold.

So that $11,500 for weapon, that's a +2 weapon and some gold left over. Armor is +3 and some left over gold. For others magic items you'll get 1 medium or bunch of lesser magic items. Typically you will actually end up with less than what other players are getting because they got find stuff so that's 1/2 price. That's how we divide treasure, if you want it out of the loot you pay half price otherwise it gets sold. So if find a weapon +3 I'm getting it for 9160 gold for a weapon that 20 gp non magical. The new character has +2.

Now where this can be problematic is Adventure Paths. Typically adventure paths are stingy on treasure in books 1 and 2 then in book 3 dump the treasure big time often exceed wealth by level. Book 1 is typical 1st -4th and 5th to 7-8th it sounds like you are entering the rich part of the AP. You're player are probably just starting it so existing character would below wealth by level and new character would come out better off and gain a bunch on top of it. So how I do it is reduce wealth by level for new character in first two books of an AP and go with normal after that.

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Madokar Valortouched wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
If you want ways to solve this w/o murdering people, you need to tell us more about the corruptions bit. How did you get them? Why did destroying the black blade restore the magus? How did he know it would?

We don't know the sources of the corruptions. They just started happening. And there was no indication that destroying the Black Blade would end the Magi's corruption. There was a whole chain of events that led to the Blade's destruction. I even made a thread that covered most of that mess.

After the Magus performed the ritual to get his Black Blade back, he was freed of the corruption, his Black Blade became a White Blade, and the Sword got a better disposition as a result. The Magus also has gleaned some knowledge about the corruptions by performing the ritual.

The Shaman is slowly becoming undead. He became gaunt (the GM specifically showed pictures of Holocaust survivors to give an idea of what the Shaman is looking like), developed a black ichor instead of blood, and now has no flesh on his forearms. As a result of the latest corruption for the Shaman, he now has a lich's Paralyzing Touch ability.

As for my paladin, he's developed Infernal/ Abyssal traits. At level 10, my paladin has large wings with 60 ft fly speed and poor maneuverability. There are other bonuses, like a +2 bonus to STR and CON, Acid Resist 15, Regen 5, and a +4 bonus to FORT saves to overcome Poison effects.

I'd play this corruption out and fall as Paladin rising and anti-paladin with wings. I would chaotic evil stupid, I'd go like Dexter as serial killer hunting bad guys enjoying the hunt and the kill. I'd roleplay out the struggle, resisting at first, then finding bad guys to kill, that might work for bit but soon I'd be killing them to survive and starting to enjoy it. Then turn to the darkside as curse progressed.

Could be that's cure though. Resisting to bitter end.

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Just a Mort wrote:

I will argue in this case, the GM had no choice, because the Adventure Path in question said so. The only choice he had was not to run that particular Adventure Path.

Way of the wicked is another Adventure Path you start without gear. But still its awesomely fun. Except I don't really make very good evil villian material.

Wrath of the righteous started out that way too for the most part.

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Officially Strange wrote:
In my area, there's a semi-orgainized play campaign going on. I am not in it due to inability to provide an adequate backstory, but I know what happens from one of my friends who is in it. Recently, the party was knocked/poisoned unconscious and left on an island without gear. Since any sort of rolling was bypassed, I couldn't believe that the GM would take away all the gear (effectively destroying several interesting builds)simply because plot. However, everybody I asked about is saying that I'm a bad player for asking the DM to be as bound by the rules as the players. What is so wrong about wanting to try out interesting mechanics, and having them not arbitrarily lost? Especially since the characters were without their main gear for around 20% of the campaign length? (It's five day long sessions, at levels, 4,8,12,16,20)

I remember playing a series of modules in 2nd edition AD&D called scourge of the Slave Lords which originally was written in AD&D as series of modules. There was part where the GM had to capture the party as part of the story and enslaved them to run oars on slaver ship. In it he party saw their possession destroyed, sold or taken by high level slavers. There was lots of opportunity to get new magic items once the players could escape. I do remember how pissed the player were with this when I ran it. After it happen I had to halt the game and we had a talk about. Once on board the the game continued and the players found the challenge of escaping with out magic items very fun after they got some loot to build them up again.

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Currently play a Feral Hunter, liked the Hunter class but didn't want an animal companion. It's been a blast to play but the archetype is quite weak. The stat bonus are nice and carry you for bit but they give you an enhancement bonus so no belts. Since saves you on gold early on that's how it carries well. The next spot is summon natures ally, pretty useless by 7th level. I'm summoning leopard with tiger aspect, even with 2 of they just die and can't things. By the time I can tiger at 10th level the same problem. The only time they useful is on easy encounters where you don't need to summon in the first place. It wouldn't be so bad but you give up almost all you team work feats in place of that summon. I the archetype would be better with out Summon Pack. You still can summon but you can at least use teamwork feats. Still I'm having a blast with the class role playing a cranky hunter and making use of wild shape. Wild shape is the thing that makes it fun I think.

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King Maker I found to be very classic D&D stronghold building with some good dungeon crawls and exploration. Reminded me very much of the games I played back in the AD&D and 2nd Edition days. That held for the first 3 or books but back in the older editions you could go as high of level unless you were a Human and no ever played a human as there benefit didn't come in till high levels and high level games just didn't happen much.

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Imbicatus wrote:
A whip is still a melee weapon, so it can benefit from flanking. A ranged weapon can't.

Ranged weapons can if you have the snap shot feat.

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I don't find roll play vs role play to have anything to do with optimization or power gaming.

Some people like the acting and getting into character. Some like play the game like table war game of rules and mechanics. I like both personally. Sometimes I'm just not into getting into character and roleplaying and I just want some tactical combat with loot and experience watching my character grow. Mostly I get my fix of this from video games. When we get together to game I like to get into character and roleplay as it's fun social activity. But sometime I'm just no in mood for.

So what we do is have two games. The roleplaying game and table top war game of combat where you don't really get into character play the game like a game chess.

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I don't like 15pt buy. The main reason is it works good for some classes and really put other classes at a disadvantage. Fighter vs Monk for example.

As well I've played RotRl and 15 pt buy is playing that AP in hard mode. I've run a several APs and 20 pt buy works better, results in fewer TPKs.

Now with Horror Adventures book, well 15 pt buy might not be that bad as weaker character are easier to get that fear.

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The way I see it I need to rollplay in order roleplay. I'm playing character who has skills and chances at success that are determined by the roll of dice.

If I want to play an brute who is an intimidating warrior then I need the rolls to back it up. So my rollplay supports my roleplay.

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There's enough stuff for me to use or no use. I like having more options not less. I don't have to use them all but I like them being there. That's what I hate about new game system or game version updates. You need to buy all the same stuff again and are left waiting for books to come out. At the same time if you wait the cost of buying all the book later is expensive, better buy them over time. Problem is I have enough in Pathfinder that if Pathfinder stopped releasing book I'd be able to game for years to come. So I think they have enough and more is welcome.

Looking forward to Starfinder though.

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Evil is evil. Lawful, Chaotic or somewhere in between just determines how evil is committed.

I find Law Evil to be most effective as evil. The law for them is tool they use to spread evil wide and far. Chaotic evil is less organized and more individualistic thus less far reaching. In the middle you have some law but not the law of the land.

So LE is a corporate CEO that harms others legally. They swindle people out of life savings using the law. The have the power to create the laws. NE is more like organized crime. They break the law but follow their own code or laws. CE is more like gang where there is leader rule through might but no real laws as long tribute is paid.

In the end they could all do the exact same evil just slightly differently. Say they all want traffic prostitution. LE would make slavery and prostitution legal and reap the rewards. NE would do with their own code in place were it may or may not be legal. CE would just do it and keep it hidden. So none more evil than other just their methods differ.

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The way I see it is the price includes the gauntlets. So I see gauntlets as factored into the AC the armor gives you. To sell them, assuming the can be removed, would mean the armor wouldn't function as intended. So I don't see this as way to get cheaper adamantine armor. I'd let a player do that but I'd lower the AC by 1 for compromise the arm piece.

Piecemeal armor grant AC for arms, legs and torso. Full plate would be 1, 1 and 6 for total 8. You get 9 for fully fitted suit of full plate. So the -1 makes sense.

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johnlocke90 wrote:
Deyvantius wrote:
Claxon wrote:

Why do you specifically want to do a dex based build over a strength based build?

Clearly because DEX brings initiative, reflex saves, and dodge bonuses...Makes perfect sense
Plus it has several useful skills, while strength has none.

Strength has swim, climb and intimidate. I wouldn't call those useless. True you need the feat Intimidating Prowess to add Str but it adds Str on top of you Chr bonus so worth it for intimidate build.

Dex has acrobatics, disable device, escape artist, fly, ride, sleight of hand, and stealth. Most of the skills you'll never use. So par that down to acrobatics, ride, and stealth. That's about the same as Str skills except if you invest(feats and magic items) a lot in acrobatic and stealth you get more than than swim and climb give you. That's really the only edge is skills that Dex has.

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I love to optimize in theory crafting just to see what the best is. When I play a character swap out things here and there that make me less optimized than I could be. Usually landing 75% optimized. I like to leave room for interesting story oriented thing that most times are not optimizing my character.

Like for example optimizing a wizard but leaving things open to take prestige class even though it's weaker but makes sense from role playing point view. In a way it optimizing to the story even if mechanically inferior. There are in game bonuses to doing this in home brew games that give the GM the ability shape the world they have created. So I'm always open working with the GM in that way. Wish more players would work that way with me when I'm the GM.

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I removed Leadership as feat. Now I put in with the Ultimate Campaign where you need to invest capital to gain leadership.

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I never noticed this. But then I've only used the quicken meta magic rod. All the others never really seem worth the GP cost. Not for the sorcerer I've played at least.

Did use it on a an Inquisitor but it never came up as I used a rod of extend at the start of day on Magic Vestment and Great magic weapon.

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I think it's purely up to the GM and something a player works with GM to build.

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I don't think there is anything I can't make now between the classes and archetypes all the mechanics are there to build any character I want. Some just take lot more research finding the right combination of race, class(archetypes or combo archtypes), multi classing, feats, and traits. There's a ton to go through and can take me days to flesh out something.

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I'd go Inquisitor based on the other classes you have present party. Between the Magus, Fighter and Slayer you have melee covered. The Inquisitor is great in melee but brings out melee stuff that will be useful. You'll tracking, Monster Lore, discern lies, stern gaze, and tons of skills. I think this will be beneficial with the Bard, you'll be able to play off their abilities well. So would the War Priest just you get more of that with Inquisitor.

So it really depends what you want. If you want to get into the combat with the other 3 melee/ranged classes War Priest is a bit better but seems to me a more rounded character might do better here.

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Coltron wrote:

As terrible as it sounds I want to be the healer but not the party face, so charisma based character are gonna be hard. I suffer from anxiety and while I love the roleplay aspect, being in the spotlight so much would nearly kill me.

That said I was thinking more cleric, so I can take extra channeling instead of having to put too much into charisma (and thus be shuffled into being the face).

As fars as the character I want to play, I just kinda want to be a gruff but compassionate healer that while a jerk does his best to save those around him, focusing more on healing conditions. Being able to cure the blind little orphan in game, or tend to those that are suffering. Stuff like that.

Play a Life Oracle instead. They are great healers and fun to play. No worries on being the party face. Even if you play cleric with decent Charisma that doesn't make you the party face. It's the skills that do that and having a good Charisma means you social skill will be better. Thing is a cleric with 2 skill point rarely has the skill points to be the party face even though they have good Charisma. So you can easily be a gruff compassionate healer just due to lacking the social skills.

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Coltron wrote:

I have had some friends getting me into pathfinder for the better part of a year now and finally decided to get serious about playing it. The problem is that I like being a healer, I am an old school mmo'er and actually loved 4th edition (if only I hadn't moved from my old group that loved it too.) I googled a question and found myself in this deep rabbit hole of vitriol regarding healers and people who enjoy that particular style of gaming.

So my question is: Should I just accept that Pathfinder isn't my kind of game and just move on, or is it possible to play a healing character without 40 people telling me how I am ruining combat speed and am a waste of space?. It isn't even like I am just trying to healbot, I want to focus on buffing but have a hard time playing the character I want to roleplay when I am all but forced to get a clw wand and shut up.

thank you

When I'm playing Barbarian I must have healer in the group or things get very painful. Low AC and tons of hit points mean I need a healer who can actually heal decently. Healers are great.

The problem isn't that healer are bad it's that many people hate playing heal bots. I known I do but I appreciate those who do like playing healers.

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Leadership isn't broken and as GM I expect players to take it at some point. I rarely see it taken though. So I removed it as feat and make it bonus feat players could work towards in similar way to 2nd Edition D&D. That's where if you build a keep you attract followers. Seems to work pretty good for the game I run using the Ultimate Campaign book.

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Dragon78 wrote:
I found it to be disappointing, especially as a player, but if your a DM I could see it having it's uses.

I mainly GM and love the book. As player though not much there but the odd feat. Most of feats see a bit on evil side for heroic characters.

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I find the close to TPK is memorable be cause it's rare. Quite often it becomes TPK or doesn't even get close to TPK.

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master_marshmallow wrote:

I think it's purposely not defined for DM's and players to decide what works best for them.

Not much help as far as rules go, but most of the unchained stuff is sorta stuck in an "as is" state like most of the other alternate rules systems.

I see these optional rules as suggested house rules. So it's not like they are official core rules.

I see variant multiclass and counting fully as class of that level as the text suggest but doesn't out right say.

"With this system, each character can choose a secondary class at 1st level that she trains in throughout her career, without giving up levels in her primary class."

So secondary class is level is that class in my book.

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Took cosmopolitan to make Knowledge History and Geography class skills. For how often the two skills checks came up it was pretty useless but it fit the Character concept.

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I have seen this in my players characters. How I handle it is to give the sorcerer something to daze and fry. They went through the effort so let them have their fun. As well I encourage the sorcerer to use other spells to get through encounters. I shut down the dazing fireballs from time to time but not often as that is not a fun thing to do.

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War is action it's not evil or good. The intent is what make it evil or good.

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Cole Deschain wrote:

Culturally, D&D is going to stay in the lead because it came first. Just as many people call all drywall sheetrock and all copiers Xeroxes, many groups I know call any and all fantasy tabletop gaming "D&D."

Even the 4th Edition debacle didn't change that, so of course with 5th being a legitimately pretty good system, why would that change?

With that said... "Observations From a Retailer" is what I like to call "anecdotal evidence." That article's content may be summed up in its entirety as follows:

"One store isn't selling as much Pathfinder stuff as it used to do in part because its staffers seem more inclined to push 5th Edition D&D which has a higher brand name recognition and is also a perfectly fine system."

To which I respond, "but MY local gaming store sells more Pathfinder than D&D because the Pathfinder players are often on hand using the game room so people see it as a fun game they can easily find a group for."

Both of these anecdotal data points are equally meaningless.

But they suffer from the same problem as Kleenix did. The brand became the name for all similar products from it's competitors. D&D is that and has been since I first started playing and that was in the mid 80s.

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Orfamay Quest wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
voska66 wrote:

Mysteries work well in Pathfinder. As GM you just need to think like you are in world with magic. Also think of it like today. Not only can you scry on people via cameras every where with geo locations but you can go back in time watching recorded video. So think of world where you can scry like that and speak with the dead. A mystery will take all at into account.

Mysteries work about as well in pathfinder as they do in most rpg systems.

I'm not even sure about this. Even mystery novels don't work as well in a high-surveillance environment (which is one reason we've seen a resurgence of "period" mystery novels recently, whether set in ancient Rome, feudal China, medieval Europe, the American guilded age, or whatever).

As you correct point out, mysteries are about finding clues at an appropriate pace, which is very hard to do when you can just retroactively watch the crime take place via retrocognition or use divination magic to ask God for the answer.

When protagonist can ask God for the answers the antagonist can ask his god to hide the answers. It's a two way street. Same with high surveillance environments the antagonist can used the technology to their advantage. I've run many Shadow Run mystery and that setting is insanely high surveillance.

One way I figure out mysteries is watching my player in other adventures and the things they pull off. So if they can avoid getting caught I can use what they use. Works great.

Biggest problem is clue. My player always miss clues. I usually set 3-4 clues pointing the same thing. They find one and the others I may remove or use re-enforcement of the clue if the player just aren't getting it.

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Helic wrote:

Deserts aren't a problem of availability of water - you can have a river running through a desert without it changing much of the surrounding territory. Deserts are a problem of water distribution - i.e. it doesn't fall from the sky over every part of the landscape and soak into the ground to be stored for deep rooted plants to access.

Create Water won't do jack for deserts, even if the water didn't disappear after 24 hours. Control Weather could do it, but that requires a much higher level caster, and won't change the climate factors that formed the desert in the first place - like the rain shadow formed by mountains or the prevailing winds. So you'd need on-going maintenance to keep it from turning back into a desert.

Pathfinder is simply a game where past a certain power level, mundane annoyances can be entirely removed. Create Water and Endure Elements make desert survival trivial - so what? You never lack for OTHER challenges.

People also often complain about magic 'ruining' mystery plots. This is because Pathfinder was designed to be about hitting monsters in the face. Mysteries isn't wrongbadfun, but Pathfinder wants you to be able to solve mysteries fast and get back to hitting monsters in the face.

Mysteries work well in Pathfinder. As GM you just need to think like you are in world with magic. Also think of it like today. Not only can you scry on people via cameras every where with geo locations but you can go back in time watching recorded video. So think of world where you can scry like that and speak with the dead. A mystery will take all that into account.

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A Man In Black wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
And folks still don't get the "this game isn't meant to be balanced" memo.

Because it exists only in your mind. If game balance didn't matter, there are much more versatile or lightweight or simulationist or detailed games, depending on your taste.

Besides, 4e is a horribly-balanced game.

I don't think balance was the problem with 4E. 4E seemed like money sink. Once you played the class you it was the same the next time, no variation. To play something different you needed buy more books. Even then it got dull as class all played the same. Strikers were strikers no mater which striker you played.

The other problem 4E was combat took way too long for a fight with just mooks. I'm all for long battle with BBEG but when every fight is like that it's gets boring really quick and the end guy fight loses it's significance. Pathfinder I find the fights with the BBEG tend to go by too quick though.

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I find tiers are less about the class but more about the build. I can build tier 4 Wizard for example and build tier 1 Inquisitor. The classes limit you on what tier you can build. For example I can build well optimized fighter and still not reach tier 3.

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1: Human: Love the feat and skill points. Humans also have the best cultural set up in any campaign setting I've played.
2: Human
3: Dwarf: hate the 20 speed and medium size. As well when anyone plays one that I've seen they play all the same except for exception in Shadow Run where a guy played a Dwarven Detective from Quebec.

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Just make sure you have a good will save.

Fear has always been there. Nothing really changes with horror other than you may need to roll a few more saves again lesser fear affects. That will get dull quick if over used. So I don't expect you'll be rolling fear saves ever other round.

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Saithor wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:

But magic, well thats a whole different ballgame. Magic can literally change the story. Instead of fighting your way through a trapped hallway, you are flying calmly over it while your enemies are blind, confused and in a pit. Instead of having to convince the king to arrest the evil noble, the kings your best friend now, and of course he'll do you a solid and throw that jerk in jail.
Nothing about that requires magic. All that is required is some decent roleplay and an investment in social skills.
Point is that Magic can imitate almost any classes thing without having to need to be in that class

I find while magic can imitate almost any class feature it can't be done all the time and it expends heavy resources. Of course a high level with heavy wealth you can get the resources to do it 24/7. I don't find that happens till level 17 or so.

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Evil for a good reason, reminds me of the bad guy in Serenity. He was evil so other didn't have to be.

But really reverse this and you get the "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

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Calybos1 wrote:

The more options you provide for players, the more complexity the GM has to deal with.

"More options" is not always a good thing; a balance must be achieved. Just like the art of good writing is cutting away all unnecessary words, the art of good gamecrafting is cutting away all but the most essential rules.

I don't find the classes add much to complexity. Archetypes increase complexity. But the big that makes thing complex is the sheer amount of feats and the combinations you can apply to classes.

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Rewarding good player doesn't work. It just create more problem. The biggest issue is what a GM thinks is a good player may not be what the players think it is. So the GM starts throwing out arbitrary rewards.

Communication is key. If you have good roleplayer use them inspiration to other. Point it out and people will learn and grow.

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Davor wrote:

Rogue doesn't need a fix. Pathfinder just needs to be balanced more towards the claims of the base system. Against CR appropriate enemies and challenges, Rogues perform completely viably. They simply don't min/max as hard as other classes.

If the game were more consistent in the way it's optimization is executed, you wouldn't hear complaints about rogues. That's party of why I'm excited for Starfinder. I'm willing to bet the system will, while being backwards compatible, be more consistent throughout.

The original rogue was fine with with appropriate CR enemies and challenges up to about level 12. That's when they got really bad, not instantly at level 12 but level 12 was the downward slide. The issue was the rogue couldn't hit well enough to deal with increased danger they put themselves in to get sneak attack due to stalled defenses. So it was hit with 25% to 50% of your attacks and get squished in 1 round of full attacks. So the rogue then hangs back avoid the killing blows but not getting their sneak attack in. This was typical of the old rogue. Unchained fixed that with Debilitating Injury. Now the unchained rogue only needs to hit once which they normally do and they get +6 at 10th or +8 at 16th to hit. Now the iterative attacks hit more often. On top of that they can apply two injuries and reduce the attack bonus of the enemy by the same amount. The rogue offense and defense just jumped significantly.

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Cantriped wrote:

Hellknight PrC gets full movement in Hellknight Plate, but it takes a lot of levels and unrelated opportunity costs to get there. Variant Multiclassing Fighter would work regardless of your class selection, and a 3 level dip in Fighter would work for any Mithril Heavy Armor, and also grants enough proficiencies and feats to hit Slashing Grace as early as 2nd level if you really want it...

However I fail to understand why anybody would want to put a Dex Build in heavy armor. The weight of mithril heavy armor alone will bring most dex builds near or to a medium load; killing your movement speed unless you're a dwarf, limiting dex bonus to AC, and applying a worse Armor check penalty than the armor does (one that cannot be reduced mind you). If the build also has a fairly high Strength, weight isn't an issue, but the benefits of Slashing Grace are greatly reduced or even nonexistent. Unless you can get a +3 or better to damage from Slashing Grace or just absolutely have to be able to use/regain panache from a Bastard Sword or Katana than it just isn't worth it.

I don't understand why many players are so obsessed with Dexterity that they are willing to feat tax themselves into oblivion just to do with their Dexterity what Strength could give them much less expensively.

I find the issue is maximizing Dex for AC along with the benefits to skills and reflex saves. As fighter you get armor training that give you +4 to Max dex and lowers ACP by 4 at 17th level. You can increase that +5 max dex with sash that increase you armor training and bravery by 4 levels. Then wear mitheral plate at 1/2 the weight for another 2 increase to your Max dex. Then with armor master guide book you can add 1 more to you max dex with a feat. So you can get Full Plate with a 0 ACP and +9 max dex at level 17. So you might want that 28 Dex and since you have 28 dex then dex to damage is very appealing. You only need 13 Str as that qualifies you power attack and your light load is 50lbs. So 25lbs armor, 7.5 lbs shield, and 4 lbs for sword. That leaves you 13 lbs to carry other equipment.

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's the art work. The text have very poor descriptions of monsters when you don't have artwork of the monster to preview. I run into that all the time as I own all the bestiaries but use the PRD on my laptop when running a game as 5 bestiaries are really heavy. Quite often I run into monster I have trouble visualizing.

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sundakan wrote:
Dex to Damage in Full Plate is a pretty bad deal.

Not if you are a fighter. In mitheral full plate you can have +10 armor bonus with +9 Max dex bonus an 0 ACP. That's using the APG Sash of War Champion and couple Armor Master feats.

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

From an optimization point of view there are very few prestige classes that help there. From a creative fun to play build prestige classes are great.

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