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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber. 2,552 posts. No reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist.


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Don't change a thing. Let the player struggle through it. They will figure it out over time and be better off for it. This comes from experience as I'm dyslexic and it affects number and letters. Gaming helped me a lot. No one changed the game for me and I struggled but I loved the game so much I put the effort in. Something I didn't do in school. I didn't find out I was dyslexic till I was in my first year of college. That's right gaming got me that far. Once diagnosed I was taught techniques, took years to perfect and when I went back to finish what I started 4.0 in every class. I just took what I did to learn games applied to my classes. I'd come over book reading all kinds of ways till it made sense.

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DM-DR wrote:
I think you missed the point of the tip. The have fun clause isn't an answer for any question. It is a reminder that you have a duty to ensure everyone in your gaming group is having fun. Everything you do in your group needs to focus on the fact that it is a game made to bring entertainment to a group of friends. Not a single individual.

Nope, that's not the point. The point "Have Fun" is that being a GM you need to have fun too. It's easy as GM to go into a game and not have fun. It become a chore not fun time.

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This is one class you can't just skim. I found it hard to figure out till I made a character. In making the character it all fell into place. From just reading it was hard to grasp, writing out the character I found made it much easier.

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Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:
My problem with the Vigilante is that Paizo has already locked themselves into having a Vigilante base class, and no amount of playtesting will convince me that this is a good idea. It doesn't matter how good the class becomes; it's not something that should be a class. Paizo should have publically playtested the idea before committing themselves to printing it.

I love the vigilate concept but I'm the GM. This class in playtest is awesome as villain for the PCs. It's perfect! As a player it's usable but no where near as good as it is for GM to use against the players.

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Charon's Little Helper wrote:
voska66 wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:

Yep. The pendulum has swung too far the other direction. It's like crane wing all over again.

There really has to be a reasonable middle ground between overpowered and awful. I don't understand why this keeps happening.

I think the feat would have been fine with a 1/2 Chr bonus to save minimum 1. As well it should have feat pre-req as it required Religion Ranks it should also required skill focus religion.

Seeing this feat in play it wasn't really a problem. It was no worse than a Paladin. I mean I had a Lawful Good Bard that 2 levels Paladin, this was no worse than that. I only reason I can see to nerf this feat is it steps on the Paladins toes too much.

The opportunity cost of dipping Paladin is far higher than a feat or two, especially for spell-casters (such as Oracle). Even at 1/2 Cha it could easily give +5 to all saves at higher levels. That's stupidly OP even for 2 feats.

That's not a big deal. So they have +20 Will save, they will have +17 for Fort and Reflex at 15th level at the earliest. Still more 60% chance of failing a DC 29 breath weapon attack against reflex.

With out the feat and instead spending it on Lightening reflexes and Great fortitude the would be F 17, R 17, and W: 17. So it's really only gain of 3 on the will save. Sure a player could pull the saves even higher by blowing more feats getting +2 to all three on top and taking a half orc with sacred tattoo and fates favored for another +2 but really that's not a good idea. Using up 1/2 your feats and traits to do it. If a player did that in my game I'd just melee them to death.

This feat gets out of hand if you play with high stats though still when you play high stats the DCs are higher too, at least they are in my game. If people want 50 pt buy then the most get an equal boost. At 50 pt buy all the encounter get the advanced template x2.

So 1/2 Chr work is my game and something I've house ruled.

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Doomed Hero wrote:

Yep. The pendulum has swung too far the other direction. It's like crane wing all over again.

There really has to be a reasonable middle ground between overpowered and awful. I don't understand why this keeps happening.

I think the feat would have been fine with a 1/2 Chr bonus to save minimum 1. As well it should have feat pre-req as it required Religion Ranks it should also required skill focus religion.

Seeing this feat in play it wasn't really a problem. It was no worse than a Paladin. I mean I had a Lawful Good Bard that 2 levels Paladin, this was no worse than that. I only reason I can see to nerf this feat is it steps on the Paladins toes too much.

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magnuskn wrote:

Yeah, the "new rules" churn is rivaling the late 3.5 WotC fast release schedule by now. It's again getting to the point that there are too many new rules to keep up and care.

It seems to be an indicator for me that PF 2.0 is coming soon.

I don't think you'll see PF 2.0 coming any time soon. I think we may see a halt of PF RPG books coming out. Maybe focus on different genres like PF SciFi RPG. There is enough PF RPG content to feed the campaign setting for year. Pathfinder Online will also drive sales. I mean that's how I ended up playing pen/paper RPGs back in the day. Started with BBS MUDs on the Apple IIe.

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Cheapy wrote:

Wait, people actually thought Divine Protection was balanced?


Haven't found it to unbalanced in play. I have found it a little unfair the poor fighter still get dominated why that cleric is beating every will save coming their way and still failing the reflex even the bonus.

Had an oracle take it but not till level 15, he had too many feat he wanted first. My Inquisitor took it at level 13 and I'm thinking or retraining it out now. Not getting as much use out of it as I thought. Favored Judgement would be better.

Only issue I took with this feat was it was ripping off a class feature of the paladin. Eldrich Heritage took 2 feats to get a gave you a sorcerers class feature a less ability due class -3 for sorcerer level. Personally I think Divine Protection should be kept but at 1/2 CHR minimum +1. So you wouldn't even get +2 till 18 CHR. Also I'd make it cost another feat. Say Skill Focus Religion.

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Morrin the Stout wrote:
Can't wait until next week! May have to build another type of Kinetisist than this playtest version.....

I'm building gnome fire Kinetiscist. It's turning out pretty good. That class took me about 3 readings in book to figure but I think I have handle on it now. It's not so much the complexity but how I do up the character to streamline in play on character sheet. This was cool then I read Medium and was even more impressed. Loving Occult Adventures, can't wait for the hardcover book to get to my mailbox until I have the PDF on my IPAD.

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So with all the martial debates going on, i was browsing feats and stuff and i started thinking... so many of these feats and class abilities are limited to their own specific action. For example, Vital Strike, Spring Attack, Cleave. Iajutsu Strike, ect. Now I am no guru on how certain things could affect game balance and such but I was wondering, would allowing these abilities to stack be unbalancing or actually good for the game? For instance, if you allowed Cleave, Vital Strike, and spring attack to stack you could do almost a weakened full attack n the go but also hit every adjecent enemy to the main enemy. This may seem powerful but it is rediculously feat intensive (dodge, mobility, spring attack, cleave, vital strike, greater cleave).

By consequence though, it allows the fighters rediculous wall of feats do something actually cool Since he can afford all those feats.

What do you all think? Should they errata or whatever all these abilities to allow them to stack or is it too op?

From player point of view totally not over powered. In fact we play it like that. Where it gets really nasty is with giants though and if you GM give say frost giant raiders out of the monster codex improved vital strike instead of dazzling display and intimidating prowess. A CR equal fight get really tough. Killed the entire party except for the rogue because he was stealthing and moving in for back stab. I got hit on the charge for 27D6 + 104 damage because there was 3 of them. My 14th level character had 128 hit points. By the time that first round was the fighter was the only one standing and he couldn't get away. I admit it was our mistake thinking these were just normal frost giants. We came back it was ranged fire attacks, we couldn't stand toe to toe. Over power, you bet.

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LazarX wrote:
Maezer wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
Mass bull's strength might be competitive for summon-focused characters.
Any summon-focused character without augment summoning probably isn't all that summon-focused.

+2 hit/damage sounds like a lot in the beginning but it gets a lot less impressive as the levels go up. And it is a two feat investment for most folks.

Fortunately Herolab has made handling SM spells with all of the feats and trimmings, a LOT easier in the last update.

Mass Bulls Str is largely a useless spell because by the time you get it everyone has belt of giant str. In Paizo APs these belts become common place starting in Book 3. If you don't find on you can buy one.

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The-Silence wrote:
im looking at the kineticist pregen, and it looks like they took out the per level wording and now says "For each point of burn she accepts, Yoon takes 1 point of nonlethal damage. This damage can be healed only by a full night’s rest, and it can’t be reduced or redirected."

It's in the book as 1 nonlethal per level.

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JiCi wrote:

For instance, I like the Variant Multiclassing rule in Unchained... except that it only covers the core classes and the APG classes. (Oddly enough, the ACG classes were left out ?_?)

In Occult Adventures, will there be sidebars for each class stating what features can be allowed using the Variant Multiclassing rule? "If you want to use the Variant Multiclassing with the Kineticist, here's how to do it." See what I mean?

I'm asking this because most of the time when an alternate rulebook is released, the developpers... don't usually get back into it in later products, considering that the alternate rulebook is, well, an alternate rulebook, completely optional to GMs and players alike. I was wondering if Paizo has plans to reference Unchained rules in later products.

Y'know, just so it doesn't get forgotten ;)

Haven't see any sidebars like that about variant multiclassing. I'm still reading through the book in more detail. Only skimmed it so far.

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The classes look interesting. A lot of reading though. I just read through the Kinetist(sp?) and I'm still not sure I'm getting how burn works, seem to me it would kill you.

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I don't really see how this class works as PC but from GM point of view this class is GREAT. I can now have vigilante villain interact with PCs in his public identity and be the real bad guy in his secret identity. It's great for that.

From a player point of view the class works but you will just be you secret identity 99% of the time for you average adventure path. I as GM could, should say would, run a home brew game playing up the vigilante identities in a city. I think it would be great. But we play a lot of APs so unless one is coming out soon to use it this class probably won't get a lot of use. That AP Cheliax though looks like it was made for the Vigilante though.

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What it means is fighters get 10 bonus feats, BAB, and feats. These are static bonus. Each level they get a feat, +1 BAB an 6 avg hit points. It's linear. Then add a few static +1 bonuses on top.

The wizard get spell. Each level of spell is more power than then next by magnitude of power. So wizards power exponentially grow with each new spell level they get all the way up to level 17 and 9th level spells. They also get 5 bonus feat and some class features on top of that which grow in power and not static +1 bonuses.

Even the feats for fighter don't match up with what a wizard can pick.

So fighter is 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1 and the wizard 1+9+25+49+81+121+169+225+289. It's not accurate of course but illustrates the progression of power between the two classes.

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I think any character of any class would have level of renown. The Vigilante renown is would be on top of that. There are few rules for that type of thing but it has made an appearance in a few APs.

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I found things were good from Tier 1 and Tier 2 at Tier 3 things got out of hand with Recuperation. If you thought 15 minute work days were bad, that is makes characters who can nova able to do several times a day. 1 hour of rest and mythic power point and it's like you rested 8 hours regaining all your limited use class abilities. That's where I found things got out of hand.

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Get Cleave, you get a second attack on a adjacent target if you hit with the first attack. You can't take it at 1st level but you can at 2nd level via two handed combat style with a slayers talent. Or you pick power attack and grab cleave at 3rd level.

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Randomly rolled stats typically produce a character of average stats. For every super powered character you have gimped one but.

One the nice thing about randomly rolled stats is it kind of determines the character you will play. You end up with an interesting party some times. I saw one game where the players all rolled high INT an CHR and ended up being Wizard, Bard, Oracle, and Sorcerer for the the party.

On the flip side I like point buy because I don't have to roll stats that turn to be awesome when no one was around to verify I didn't cheat. So I can build characters via point build. I like that.

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Dragons can cast spells. They don't necessarily have to have the spell listed in the Bestairy. So give the dragon fire resistance. Also dragon's have a hoard of treasure that they can use. Change up the feats a little bit and swap something out for Deflect Arrows. That can be used to deflect one bomb. Add protection from Arrows, since bomb technically aren't magical it applies as DR for up to 10 bombs assuming a bomb does more than 10 damage.

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I see lots of high level play. All the AP I've run end between 17 and 20th level.

Now I have a ton of 1st to 5th level characters. A game starts and dies before it gets past that point.

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Neal Litherland wrote:

Whether you're a player or a DM sooner or later a caster is going to give you trouble. Clerics and wizards, sorcerers and bards, orcales, arcanists, and magi, oh my!

Nothing is more frustrating then being steam-rolled by a magic user. So the next time you're looking down the barrel of one of these big guns, stick a carrot in it and see what happens!

How to Shut Down Spellcasters

As always, though it's mentioned in the guide it bears repeating, there is a counter to EVERYTHING. So if you're going to go after a magic user it pays to know as much about them as you can in order to have the best possible strategy.

Best way to shutdown casters is to not shut them down. Give them every opportunity you can burn spells, let them feel god like. Eventually the run low on spells. Then you hit them. This works a couple of times then they get cautious with spell use, saving up spells just in case. Suddenly the game plays much better as magic is no in check.

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I find high level play is more a about choices and consequences. The question then become not if the players can do something but should they do it.

The problem is having consequence the players care about. If you use the lower level to immerse the characters in the setting then they begin to care about it. Then consequences that impact the setting have an impact on the player decisions at high levels.

I find it's hard to get players invested to this degree though. The Ultimate Campaign book sure helps though.

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CommandoDude wrote:

How do?

The GM for my home game has ruled that we can't purchase magic items above the purchase limit of cities. We are 12th level, and I am a cleric who can teleport across the world and plane shift to other dimensions, but the largest city we can get to has a purchase limit of 30k.

Basically, the casters in our group (including me) want to get +6 headbands which are 36k priced. How do we do this? I do not believe that a 12th level caster who can literally reach anywhere in the universe via planar travel (my common tactic of getting anywhere on the same plane is to plane shift to a different plane and then plane shift back around whereabouts I want to go) can't get a dang +6 headband.

Have a rogue in the party take Black Market ties. With DC 25 diplomacy check the rogue can raise the purchase level of small city to that of Metropolis which has purchase limit of 100,000 gp. With out check they it's 50,000 gp. Also if you don't have that a small city has 1D6 major magic items. Since a headband +6 is major magic item the possibility exist that it could be in any number of small cities or large towns (1D4).

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Arachnofiend wrote:
The Unchained Barbarian was ostensibly made to be simpler to understand, though. Juggling the action economy problems stances bring to the table is a negative on that front.

I don't see it as negative. I give up a move action to get all the benefits of Reckless Abandon with out the AC penalty. Still makes me wonder why Reckless Abandon still exists. Sure it's the only way to use Natural or Ranged attacks I guess but why?

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Blave wrote:

I'm a bit baffled by the duration of Debilitating Injury. It lasts one round, which means it ends at the beginning of the rogues next turn, correct?

So... the rogue will never get any use out of it himself unless he manages sneak attack the same for twice in one round? That's not gonna happen before level 8 unless you dual-wield. Even then it's not that easy to set up a full-attack with sneak attack AND happen to hit with both attacks, especially since you'll suffer dual-wield or iterative attack penalties (though the second attack would benefit from Bewildered if the first is a hit).

That seems unneccessary limiting, considering the ability was meant to fix the rogue's "to hit"-problem. Shouldn't the duration be "until the end of the rogue's next turn" or something like that?

It lasts 1 round plus 1 round for each additional sneak attack you land. Seems to me it assumes a 4th level rogue will be dual wielding.

But really the rogue never had problems hitting at levels 4-8. This addresses the rogue's problem at hitting the higher levels when they do have multiple attacks. At 4th level you can multiple attacks with TWF and then the situation AOO. And really if you land a sneak attack against a CR appropriate creature the creature will probably be dead before your next round anyways with the bonus the flanking partner gets.

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Sir Dante wrote:

Just got my copy of unchained and have begun to read it through.

But the signature skill stopped me, is it just me or are they very underwhelming? I mean sure the rank 15 and 20 are good but very few games reach lvls 15-20.

Was just wondering if anyone else thought the unlocks should be something like 3,6,9,12 or 4,8,12,16 etc.

Any thoughts?

I think they should be 15 and 20 where the good stuff comes in. That's when you would want a skill do more since skill use become kind of trivial at that point. Diplomacy has been doing the same thing since level 1. Only difference now is at high level it's an auto success. This great for rogues as skill monkey, it keeps skill valid at the higher levels. At the low levels skills work fine, no need for a boost.

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CWheezy wrote:

Finesse training: Fighter Weapon Groups instead of one weapon. Done.

The rogue is actually pretty bad still, bad fort and will saves are crippling and they still don't have an innate to hit booster like other martial classes

That was my complaint to till I read the Major Magic rogues talent. The to hit problem doesn't really come into play till high level. The problem at level 9-15 was you iterative attacks tend to miss, not big deal now Debilitating injury lower the AC. Around level 16 though landing that first sneak attack to lower the AC gets very difficult. You could find yourself needing 18 or high to hit. But that's where True Strike comes in via the Major Magic talent usable 16 times per day. Now you make the first strike with a +20 and your opponent is -8 to AC, that's basically +8 to hit. Now you are landing the rest of your attacks. Even that really high AC opponent now is instead need 18/20/20 you need 10/15/20 as well any buffs from party makes that better. When it 18/20/20 you might give 15/20/20 after a +3 buff inspire courage now it's 7/12/17. Much better than rogue was before, they are actually useful at the top levels now.

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magnuskn wrote:

A second edition is pretty much inevitable economically. At some point, people will get enough of the constant release of new classes, feats and items into the existing system, not even to mention inconsistencies in the current rules and unwanted synergy effects. Sales will taper off as people turn to other, less convoluted systems. And the Paizo staff will want to keep feeding their families.

A new edition will have some die-hards who will stop buying Paizo products altogether, but if the developers manage to make the system substantially better with their new iteration, enough others will keep playing, return or start playing that it will work out.

Pathfinder Unchained pretty obviously is a way for them to probe what kind of changes the fanbase reacts positively to. The developers can gauge the feedback and use it as a core around which to build a new edition of the game.

For main rule system sure but from setting they have room to grow there for another decade. I'm not sure what other books I could possibly need for Pathfinder on rule base point after Unchain and the Occult book. I'd love to see more Golorian hard cover books on different continents.

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I was kind of surprised by weapon finesse and the dex to damage. I don't think dex to damage was needed. More damage for a character class that has trouble hitting at high levels don't help much. At the lower levels sneak attack did more than enough damage as they could hit fairly consistently. At level 16 the rogue still suffers needing 15 or better on D20 to hit some of the tougher monsters.

At level 16 a rogue has about +25 to hit and the AC you can be trying to hit is around 33-41. Take CR 18 Ancient Blue Dragon with a 41 AC due the shield spell. Now assuming Two Weapon Fighting for -2. The rogue needs 18 or higher to hit with their primary attacks and 20 with the next 4 attacks. So Dex to damage really doesn't help much here.

At the early level the rogue worked just fine.

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Calth wrote:

Trying to answer some of the non-monk questions posted.

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **...

On the Barbarian and Reckless abandon, Reckless Abandon is a stance rage power to so won't stack as you can only have 1 stance active at time.

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I like what they did with Barbarian I would use that but do you apply the changes to Rage to other class that have Rage or would the new Barbarian just use a different Rage rule compared other ways to get Rage. For example the BloodRager but there is also the Rage spell and Skald's Inspired Rage. Also there are few feat that give a bit of Rage. Do all those use the new Rage Mechanic?

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Ravingdork wrote:
Avadriel wrote:

Page 9 and 12, accurate stance rage power seems to make reckless stance an actively bad option.

Reckless Stance is not limited by what weapons it can apply to. You could use Reckless Stance with a bow, but not with Accurate Stance, for example.

Accurate Stance = Melee weapons and thrown weapons only.
Reckless Stance = Anything at all.

Useful for natural attacks tool. Also since Reckless Stance is an untyped bonus it stacks with the Bard's Inspire Courage where Accuracy stance being a competency bonus will not.

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DinosaursOnIce wrote:

I may be in a minority but one of my biggest hopes is that they go digital only (them and everyone else). It's not that I have a particular preference for digital over print but it wastes less paper and is more environmentally friendly.

My fear is that dinosaurs will not get any future support (fluff or new types). I don't actually hVe any really big fears.

How is going all digital more environmentally friendly. I'd argue the exact opposite. To use digital material you need a device capable of reading. You have tons of devices on the market to read these PCs, laptop, tablets and such. All of them last about 3-5 years and end in the junk pile. Now compare that to a book you have on shelf. I mean I still have some of original AD&D books from the mid 80s. Now my Apple II, that I no longer have nor the 8088, 286, 386, pentium II, Pentium III, 3 AMD PCs, 2 laptops, and now I have Ipad and Kobo. All that old stuff is in some landfill not breaking down like paper book would.

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DM_Blake wrote:

I have never actually had any player do this. Ever. Hundreds of PCs, nobody has invested all, or even most, of their wealth into consumables. EVERYBODY wants the Big-Six to varying degrees, so everybody invest some, usually most, of their wealth into it.

So, hypothetically, if I had a player make those decisions, I might drop a hint to the whole group that they have a team member who is falling behind in his gear through excessive consumable usage - since these consumables almost always benefit the whole group, maybe they should come out of "party treasure" rather than individual wealth. In other words, maybe every PC should chip in to buy those wands and potions.

I would also drop an item exclusively for this PC. The item would be of decent value and really only usable by him. This would help him catch up. I would also slow down on giving out generic items for everyone else for a little while; I might replace them with consumables the rest of the group wants. This should help balance things out.

I've do it as player. Consumable at the lower levels are too useful not use. Permanent magic items are expensive and typically not quite as good the permanent item you could afford. It's short term greater benefit vs long term lesser benefit. Eventually the permanent item will fall into you lap or you will have the gold to buy it without having to save.

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I like the Slayer because it does exactly what I was already doing by multi-classing the rogue with the ranger. It does it better as I don't have divine spell and at lot of the nature stuff.

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I like multiclassing in theory crafting to see what I can make. I find it doesn't help much in most cases.

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Alasanii wrote:

Thanks guys. Yeah, I am going to focus mainly on melee with an okay archery skill. I am going to be the party sneak and face so I am taking the heretic archetype with the conversion domain.

I will take half-orc and use a falchion. We also have a monk and a paladin so we will have melee pretty much tied up. I am guessing the other members are going to be casters.

Stats array
Str 15, dex 16, con 13, int 12, wis 15, cha 11

Any suggestions on first level feats? Improved initiative? Judgement surge?

Thanks again guys I really appreciate the advice.

Put you 12 on Wis and put the 15 CHR is you want to be the party face. Put you stat boost at 4th, 8th, 12th and 16th on Wisdom. This will keep inline with the stat able to cast the spells when you get them.

I'd got STR 15, DEX 15, CON 13, INT 11, WIS 12, CHR 15. The higher CHR means you will be better at the social skills. Divine Protection for you saves is good with +2 from Chr at 5th level. Also it stack Sacred Tatoo and Fates Favored from the Half Orc which is good choice to take. Divine Favor is Luck bonus too so +1 to that as well. +4 to your saves is awesome on Inquisitor due to Stalwart at level 12 and headband can increase that to +7.

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The big difference is the Bag Holding IV weighs 60lbs where portable weighs nothing. If you are Str 8 Wizard with an entire library of books with you a 60lb bag is very heavy, portable hole is not.

Also the portable hole is bigger than bag of holding IV. The bag of holding holds 1500 lb in 250 cu feet. The portable has no weight limit and holds 1130 cubic feet.

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Magda Luckbender wrote:

Summary of conversation to date:

*** Start of Summary ***
Dex to damage is not Overpowered but allowing it does have the major game effect of devaluing Strength. Dex-based fighters become about as good as Strength-based fighters, leaving little mechanical reason to ever be Strength-based. So long as you are OK with this global change, allowing Dex-to-damage is probably fine.
*** End of Summary ***

Here's an extreme example of Dex-to-Damage as an Exploit [Songbird of Doom]. This obscenity shows what a powergamer can do with Dex-to-Damage. Kudos to this thread's OP, for showing us a brilliant build that abuses Dex-to-Damage.

My personal opinion: I loathe Dex-to-damage and rarely allow it. I am a martial arts aficionado. I observe that a lot of non-martial-artists see a skillful exchange of blows and, not really understanding what they see, interpret it as an agile exchange of blows. I think this is the origin of the whole Dex-to-damage meme. I hate it. I don't think it's overpowered, but I do think it's lame and stupid.

Martial art is combo of both agility and strength. The key strength though is core strength not bulging biceps. That keeps your center and maximizes your agility and maximizes the efficiency of strength in blows. How much you can arm curl doesn't matter when your agility and core strength allow you put you weight direct behind the blow in small surface area maximizing you damage.

So I have no problem with dex to damage but I think any feat that allows it should have a prerequisite Str of 13. Nothing worse that seeing a 7 str fighter with dex to damage. That's just stupid.

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alexd1976 wrote:

Any feat that allows non-casters even a slim chance to approach the power level of casters should be allowed.

There is no problem with this feat, you shouldn't even have to ask.

Dex does not 'do too much already', anyone arguing against this feat probably doesn't play fighter types...

Casters only need one stat to get bonus spells, harder to resist spells AND more spells per day.

Fighters need CON for HP, STR for combat and DEX for defense. Allow this feat.

Caster need CON for hit point and Fort save, Dex for defense and Reflex save. I've never seen a caster survive with out those two stats above 10 unless we started at 10th level or higher.

A fighter follows the same but instead INT they put it on STR. STR still does little compared to a casting stat though. So the argument stands.

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thejeff wrote:
Eryx_UK wrote:

My experience is that optimization was never really part of role playing games until the late 90's and the release of 3.5 D&D. People just played their characters and told the story that the group was playing.

I put the blame on two things. One is ease of online discussion. By this time nearly every home has an internet connection and suddenly we were all able to share and talk as a global gaming community. From that players learnt what others had done and things started to click into place. Secondly, I put a lot of the "blame" on newcomers to the hobby. Many have come from computer gaming and MMO's where being the best of the best is paramount. The older role-players are moving on, popping their clogs or just not getting involved, and so the vocal new generation are having things changed to their way of playing. Times have changed

D&D 3.5 came out in 2003. 3.0 in 2000. So "the late 90's and the release of 3.5 D&D" don't really correlate.

The difference, in my opinion, is mechanics. D&D 3.x allows optimizations in ways early editions did not. The palette to work with is much larger.

Int the 90s there was the 2E black Players Options books. That was "Combat and Tactic" and "Skills and Powers". Those books had tons of optimization, that came out in 95. Prior to the optimization came came from the players handbooks. The race ones had the most options and did the subsclass books. Fighter added a bit but the Eleven Handbook really changed the game. It's this book that introduced what later become combat feats.

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I had Neutral Evil character in a game set in the Forgotten Realms. My character was a Inquisitor of Mask. In the game I ran an extortion set up. I manipulated factions against each other for my own benefit and profit. Always came off as the hero saving the day getting the big reward only if they knew I was the causing the problems in the first place, the mastermind behind everything. The party comprised of fighter, rogue and alchemist. The schemes we pulled were done as party. None of use played stupid evil.

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Depends on the party really.

I've seen high level barbarian burn a cure light wounds wand after every combat.

Scrolls and UMD are useful but if you don't get an opportunity replenish you stock of scrolls and wands things get ugly quick.

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I'd like to have to the Blood Rager's bloodline progress. It seem cool but nothing over powered.

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master_marshmallow wrote:

So, often I see people complain about fighters not having the resources they need to do things. Most of them say you can't fight CR appropriate things because they need magic gear and thus 100% rely on spellcasters to do the things they need to do.

This feat is core and has been available the whole time.
Sure, I guess it's a 3 feat tax to have access to all your important magic items at half cost without needing pesky spellcasters and it does require skill investment.

But per the crafting rules, you can substitute a craft check in place of a spellcraft check. If you're a Lore Warden you can just make a spellcraft check.

Hell, let's look at a fighter build:
human, 20 point buy:
16(18) STR
14 DEX
14 CON
12 INT
10 WIS

So that's 4 skills per level. Max out perception and craft (weapons and armor) along with Profession (tailor) and you can literally make your own magic armor, weapons, and wondrous items. Plus extra skills to put in whatever, unless you don't wanna go human. And there's still favored class.
By 8th level you feasibly have the means to make yourself some of these or even lower level if you just want these.

Not to mention that you can also make your own stat items, cloak of resistance, amulet of natural armor, and even a headband of wisdom to boost those will saves.

Three feats seems like a lot to any other character, but if I choose to just craft a keen weapon instead of taking Improved Critical, and I can also get my magic weapons on the cheap, is that not worth the feat?

Is Craft Wondrous Item not worth taking instead of Iron Will?

Retraining cheese aside, this seems like something that I either missed being a fad, or is something people dismiss completely when dissing on the fighter.

I usually take it to craft weapons and armor. I've never done for wondrous items though. Just didn't feel right for my fighter with Profession Blacksmith to be making wondrous items unless I can pound of metal with hammer. Not saying you can't do it but just doesn't make sense the character I make.

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Just steal from the rogue instead. Pick up the sleight of hand skill yourself. It's not like rogues are good a perception for anything other than traps. So you won't need the highest skill to do it.

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leo1925 wrote:

Forum ate my long post.

It's nice that you selected, mostly, 5th level (usually augmented) mythic spells to compare a non-augmented 3th level mythic spell.

You can counter mythic wall of thorns quite easily, it's called freedom of movement, and you might be able to bypass it by flying over it (depends on the terrain) or dimension door your way across it (again depends on the terrain).

Mythic heroism is a spell that has a long enough duration to last (usually) the entire dungeon.
If the entire party has it and their opposition doesn't then the party's capabilities are at least a couple levels higher than they should be and the opposition is effectively weaker.
If some of the members of the party have it and some don't, then the members that do have it have capabilities that are at least a couple of levels higher than they actually are and are severy outperforming the party members that don't have mythic heroism.

Long story short, the +4 to attack, damage, saves and skills for the entire dungeon at the cost of a 3rd level spell and a mythic point is TOO much of a benefit.

I've found 10 minute per level spells last about two combats at least until you are high level. But then you usually end up having it dispelled.

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I ran WotR and mythic was crazy powerful but it also had someone of most challenging fights at high levels. Sure most of the encounters were push overs but there were a few interesting once that proved a real challenges. All of them were mythic encounters with the dual initiative ability.

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