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Droogami

voska66's page

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber. 2,726 posts. No reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist.


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Took cosmopolitan to make Knowledge History and Geography class skills. For how often the two skills checks came up it was pretty useless but it fit the Character concept.


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I have seen this in my players characters. How I handle it is to give the sorcerer something to daze and fry. They went through the effort so let them have their fun. As well I encourage the sorcerer to use other spells to get through encounters. I shut down the dazing fireballs from time to time but not often as that is not a fun thing to do.


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War is action it's not evil or good. The intent is what make it evil or good.


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Cole Deschain wrote:

Culturally, D&D is going to stay in the lead because it came first. Just as many people call all drywall sheetrock and all copiers Xeroxes, many groups I know call any and all fantasy tabletop gaming "D&D."

Even the 4th Edition debacle didn't change that, so of course with 5th being a legitimately pretty good system, why would that change?

With that said... "Observations From a Retailer" is what I like to call "anecdotal evidence." That article's content may be summed up in its entirety as follows:

"One store isn't selling as much Pathfinder stuff as it used to do in part because its staffers seem more inclined to push 5th Edition D&D which has a higher brand name recognition and is also a perfectly fine system."

To which I respond, "but MY local gaming store sells more Pathfinder than D&D because the Pathfinder players are often on hand using the game room so people see it as a fun game they can easily find a group for."

Both of these anecdotal data points are equally meaningless.

But they suffer from the same problem as Kleenix did. The brand became the name for all similar products from it's competitors. D&D is that and has been since I first started playing and that was in the mid 80s.


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
voska66 wrote:


Mysteries work well in Pathfinder. As GM you just need to think like you are in world with magic. Also think of it like today. Not only can you scry on people via cameras every where with geo locations but you can go back in time watching recorded video. So think of world where you can scry like that and speak with the dead. A mystery will take all at into account.

Mysteries work about as well in pathfinder as they do in most rpg systems.

I'm not even sure about this. Even mystery novels don't work as well in a high-surveillance environment (which is one reason we've seen a resurgence of "period" mystery novels recently, whether set in ancient Rome, feudal China, medieval Europe, the American guilded age, or whatever).

As you correct point out, mysteries are about finding clues at an appropriate pace, which is very hard to do when you can just retroactively watch the crime take place via retrocognition or use divination magic to ask God for the answer.

When protagonist can ask God for the answers the antagonist can ask his god to hide the answers. It's a two way street. Same with high surveillance environments the antagonist can used the technology to their advantage. I've run many Shadow Run mystery and that setting is insanely high surveillance.

One way I figure out mysteries is watching my player in other adventures and the things they pull off. So if they can avoid getting caught I can use what they use. Works great.

Biggest problem is clue. My player always miss clues. I usually set 3-4 clues pointing the same thing. They find one and the others I may remove or use re-enforcement of the clue if the player just aren't getting it.


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Helic wrote:

Deserts aren't a problem of availability of water - you can have a river running through a desert without it changing much of the surrounding territory. Deserts are a problem of water distribution - i.e. it doesn't fall from the sky over every part of the landscape and soak into the ground to be stored for deep rooted plants to access.

Create Water won't do jack for deserts, even if the water didn't disappear after 24 hours. Control Weather could do it, but that requires a much higher level caster, and won't change the climate factors that formed the desert in the first place - like the rain shadow formed by mountains or the prevailing winds. So you'd need on-going maintenance to keep it from turning back into a desert.

Pathfinder is simply a game where past a certain power level, mundane annoyances can be entirely removed. Create Water and Endure Elements make desert survival trivial - so what? You never lack for OTHER challenges.

People also often complain about magic 'ruining' mystery plots. This is because Pathfinder was designed to be about hitting monsters in the face. Mysteries isn't wrongbadfun, but Pathfinder wants you to be able to solve mysteries fast and get back to hitting monsters in the face.

Mysteries work well in Pathfinder. As GM you just need to think like you are in world with magic. Also think of it like today. Not only can you scry on people via cameras every where with geo locations but you can go back in time watching recorded video. So think of world where you can scry like that and speak with the dead. A mystery will take all that into account.


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A Man In Black wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
And folks still don't get the "this game isn't meant to be balanced" memo.

Because it exists only in your mind. If game balance didn't matter, there are much more versatile or lightweight or simulationist or detailed games, depending on your taste.

Besides, 4e is a horribly-balanced game.

I don't think balance was the problem with 4E. 4E seemed like money sink. Once you played the class you it was the same the next time, no variation. To play something different you needed buy more books. Even then it got dull as class all played the same. Strikers were strikers no mater which striker you played.

The other problem 4E was combat took way too long for a fight with just mooks. I'm all for long battle with BBEG but when every fight is like that it's gets boring really quick and the end guy fight loses it's significance. Pathfinder I find the fights with the BBEG tend to go by too quick though.


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I find tiers are less about the class but more about the build. I can build tier 4 Wizard for example and build tier 1 Inquisitor. The classes limit you on what tier you can build. For example I can build well optimized fighter and still not reach tier 3.


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1: Human: Love the feat and skill points. Humans also have the best cultural set up in any campaign setting I've played.
2: Human
3: Dwarf: hate the 20 speed and medium size. As well when anyone plays one that I've seen they play all the same except for exception in Shadow Run where a guy played a Dwarven Detective from Quebec.


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Just make sure you have a good will save.

Fear has always been there. Nothing really changes with horror other than you may need to roll a few more saves again lesser fear affects. That will get dull quick if over used. So I don't expect you'll be rolling fear saves ever other round.


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Saithor wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:


But magic, well thats a whole different ballgame. Magic can literally change the story. Instead of fighting your way through a trapped hallway, you are flying calmly over it while your enemies are blind, confused and in a pit. Instead of having to convince the king to arrest the evil noble, the kings your best friend now, and of course he'll do you a solid and throw that jerk in jail.
Nothing about that requires magic. All that is required is some decent roleplay and an investment in social skills.
Point is that Magic can imitate almost any classes thing without having to need to be in that class

I find while magic can imitate almost any class feature it can't be done all the time and it expends heavy resources. Of course a high level with heavy wealth you can get the resources to do it 24/7. I don't find that happens till level 17 or so.


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Evil for a good reason, reminds me of the bad guy in Serenity. He was evil so other didn't have to be.

But really reverse this and you get the "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."


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Calybos1 wrote:

The more options you provide for players, the more complexity the GM has to deal with.

"More options" is not always a good thing; a balance must be achieved. Just like the art of good writing is cutting away all unnecessary words, the art of good gamecrafting is cutting away all but the most essential rules.

I don't find the classes add much to complexity. Archetypes increase complexity. But the big that makes thing complex is the sheer amount of feats and the combinations you can apply to classes.


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Rewarding good player doesn't work. It just create more problem. The biggest issue is what a GM thinks is a good player may not be what the players think it is. So the GM starts throwing out arbitrary rewards.

Communication is key. If you have good roleplayer use them inspiration to other. Point it out and people will learn and grow.


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Davor wrote:

Rogue doesn't need a fix. Pathfinder just needs to be balanced more towards the claims of the base system. Against CR appropriate enemies and challenges, Rogues perform completely viably. They simply don't min/max as hard as other classes.

If the game were more consistent in the way it's optimization is executed, you wouldn't hear complaints about rogues. That's party of why I'm excited for Starfinder. I'm willing to bet the system will, while being backwards compatible, be more consistent throughout.

The original rogue was fine with with appropriate CR enemies and challenges up to about level 12. That's when they got really bad, not instantly at level 12 but level 12 was the downward slide. The issue was the rogue couldn't hit well enough to deal with increased danger they put themselves in to get sneak attack due to stalled defenses. So it was hit with 25% to 50% of your attacks and get squished in 1 round of full attacks. So the rogue then hangs back avoid the killing blows but not getting their sneak attack in. This was typical of the old rogue. Unchained fixed that with Debilitating Injury. Now the unchained rogue only needs to hit once which they normally do and they get +6 at 10th or +8 at 16th to hit. Now the iterative attacks hit more often. On top of that they can apply two injuries and reduce the attack bonus of the enemy by the same amount. The rogue offense and defense just jumped significantly.


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Cantriped wrote:

Hellknight PrC gets full movement in Hellknight Plate, but it takes a lot of levels and unrelated opportunity costs to get there. Variant Multiclassing Fighter would work regardless of your class selection, and a 3 level dip in Fighter would work for any Mithril Heavy Armor, and also grants enough proficiencies and feats to hit Slashing Grace as early as 2nd level if you really want it...

However I fail to understand why anybody would want to put a Dex Build in heavy armor. The weight of mithril heavy armor alone will bring most dex builds near or to a medium load; killing your movement speed unless you're a dwarf, limiting dex bonus to AC, and applying a worse Armor check penalty than the armor does (one that cannot be reduced mind you). If the build also has a fairly high Strength, weight isn't an issue, but the benefits of Slashing Grace are greatly reduced or even nonexistent. Unless you can get a +3 or better to damage from Slashing Grace or just absolutely have to be able to use/regain panache from a Bastard Sword or Katana than it just isn't worth it.

I don't understand why many players are so obsessed with Dexterity that they are willing to feat tax themselves into oblivion just to do with their Dexterity what Strength could give them much less expensively.

I find the issue is maximizing Dex for AC along with the benefits to skills and reflex saves. As fighter you get armor training that give you +4 to Max dex and lowers ACP by 4 at 17th level. You can increase that +5 max dex with sash that increase you armor training and bravery by 4 levels. Then wear mitheral plate at 1/2 the weight for another 2 increase to your Max dex. Then with armor master guide book you can add 1 more to you max dex with a feat. So you can get Full Plate with a 0 ACP and +9 max dex at level 17. So you might want that 28 Dex and since you have 28 dex then dex to damage is very appealing. You only need 13 Str as that qualifies you power attack and your light load is 50lbs. So 25lbs armor, 7.5 lbs shield, and 4 lbs for sword. That leaves you 13 lbs to carry other equipment.


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It's the art work. The text have very poor descriptions of monsters when you don't have artwork of the monster to preview. I run into that all the time as I own all the bestiaries but use the PRD on my laptop when running a game as 5 bestiaries are really heavy. Quite often I run into monster I have trouble visualizing.


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Sundakan wrote:
Dex to Damage in Full Plate is a pretty bad deal.

Not if you are a fighter. In mitheral full plate you can have +10 armor bonus with +9 Max dex bonus an 0 ACP. That's using the APG Sash of War Champion and couple Armor Master feats.


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From an optimization point of view there are very few prestige classes that help there. From a creative fun to play build prestige classes are great.


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I think the master spy has it's role. The Vigilante fits a Bat Man style character the master spy fits a Jame Bond style character.


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I've never had any problem with feats and fighting styles on class with no bonus feats. I get 10 feats, easy enough to fit a fighting style in there. Most are 3-4 feats. There may be more feats like archery has but most I'm not interested in unless I'm fighter. Rapid shot for example, I don't want the -2. So taking the styles is not the problem. The problem as I see it is getting those feats, it might take me 12 levels to get them where other classes have them by level 4. But that's the benefit of those classes.


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I never liked feats either but then I came from AD&D where the were no feats and thing feats do were dependent on creative GM and describing what you'd do. So feats to me kind of removed control of that from the GM.

On the flip side I played with GMs that played RAW. If there was no rule for it then it didn't happen. Feats were rules that allowed the stuff I used to do in my game to work in game where GMs needed a rule for everything. As well you had players that just weren't a free form, the gave them tools to work with as well.

So after that I came to like feats. I create new ones for my game and take player suggested feats in consideration. I also toss out free feats to the players for things I think they should have.


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Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:
j b 200 wrote:

I am also running WotR (just about to finish up book 5). Some Advice:

1) 100% use 15pb. The stat boosts from items and mythic will more than make up for it.

3) Some feats are super overpowering. Ban Clustered Shots, it's just too strong with mythic. For Mythic Combat Reflexes, change it to "you get an additional number of AoO equal to your tier" staking with normal Combat Reflexes. I have a Come and Get Me Barbarian that I just can't attack. Because she will kill an opponent on their turn.

Yes for #1

# 3) I find Mythic Vital Strike to be Utterly Broken. I highly Recommend Banning it up front. I played with a Mythic Vital Strike Scythe 2 handed Fighter (Archetype) that just chopped things in Half. Straight Disgusting once he made his Scythe Legendary Item and Pimped it out. Foe Biting is too stronk. Watching him swing 1 time and down bosses was just head shaking. No boss lived through a single round. 90% of the encounter from book 2+ was over in the first round. Only place my group felt it could possibly fail was the Mass army combat.

I found mythic power attack to be reasonable then realized we played it wrong the entire game. I thought it was spend 1 mythic power for 1 round not 1 minute. It still slaughtered anything non mythic but it burned through mythic power points faster.


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Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

Whoa there I advise AGAINST WotR as your first AP.

Mythic is utterly broken as a system.

I didn't find Mythic to be broken but WotR seemed to written for non mythic characters while the AP gave you mythic powers. That just meant any non mythic foe died in 1 round or 2. I've run my house game with mythic that had none of the problems WotR had.

For WotR I'd definitely go 15 pt buy maybe even 10 pt buy as the AP and Mythic boosts stats more than enough. I ran it with 20 pt buy, my players just wouldn't do less and they complained about 20 pt. by 13 level they were realizing they could have done 10 pt buy and been tough.


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You don't need to min max but for class, caster you need to keep in mind you progression in spell levels. You need the 19 when you are able to cast spell 9th level spells. I tend get it to at least 16, 18 with stat bonus. Might as well have it from the start or close to it.

For 6th level caster I usually start with 12 in my casting stat. Works out that ever 4 level stat boost come just in time.

For martials I don't max out anything unless I'm two handing it, then it is offense the best defense and max out strength.

I find min maxing lead to problems. The negative outways the benefits as a high stat costs too much to get.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
Invulnerable Rager is popular because you're getting a strong defensive bonus basically for free. Uncanny Dodge is a really pointless ability for most barbarians; your dexterity is going to be low so the difference between flat-footed and not flat-footed is negligible. The only category of Barbarian that falls under "can, but maybe won't" for IR is the Urban Barbarian because that's the only time your dex will be high enough to get value out of Uncanny Dodge.

The value of uncanny dodge is getting improved uncanny dodge at level 5, then those pesky sneak attacks stop working unless the bad guy is 4 levels higher than you which rarely if ever happens. Basic uncanny dodge is largely useless though.


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swoosh wrote:
Quote:


The feat to allow Bravery to apply to most Will saves has the same issue- you're charging the Fighter feats to actually get a "real" class feature equivalent to what everyone else got for free

Well, worse than that really. They're not just feats, they're limited access, heavily level gated feats.

You can almost get a good will save, but not until 5 and if you do get it at 5 you delay your extra skills or other bonuses until 9 or 10 or 13.

Which in a way is almost even worse, because instead of just fixing the problems with the fighter, the game makes you choose which problem you want to fix.

Why do you have to wait till 5th level. You can get the feat at 2nd level unless there is some important feat your fighter needs at 2nd I don't see reason to wait till 5th.

You are right though about having to burn feat for this, it should be class feature. I'd go further allowing the fighter to choose a bonus to reflex or will save instead of bravery. I'd give the fighter 4 skill points. I'd change how weapon focus feats work. Allowing them to scale by fighter level at level 4 and ever 4 after the fighter's weapon focus feat applies to another weapon. This would apply to specialization, greater weapon focus and great weapon specialization.


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Blackwaltzomega wrote:
Joey Cote wrote:

Play a fighter with a higher intel instead of huge strength. Now you have the skill points to do other things. Take the plus to skill point instead of whateverelse for favorite class. Use your regular feats to buy feats not associated with combat.

It perfectly possible to build a fighter that can do things other then combat, it just means you cannot also optimize them for combat. And so many people optimize for combat, because it tends to happen more then other actions, generally.

It would be nice if fighters could take a list of feats that bonused some skills instead of pure fighting feats as the extra fighter feats, but its not that big a deal.

Clerics, on the other hand, get completely shafted when it comes to skills and doing anything other then casting or bashing.

Fighter: Has a terrible skill list and 2+int skills. STR, CON, WIS and DEX are key abilities for the fighter, in roughly that order. Point buy is thin, and this class's purpose is to be strong, quick, and tough but not easy to mentally dominate. INT is a luxury, CHA doubly so.

People on the Forums: Why are you dumping INT and CHA? Just get worse at the thing you picked this class to be good at so you can get a few more skill ranks.

Wizard: 2+int skills, but its skill list is focused heavily around the class being staggeringly intelligent. Its class features key off intelligence. No level of intelligence is too intelligent for a wizard, and the more that stat gets pumped the more skillful and magical the wizard retroactively becomes. DEX and CON have some importance to keep the class moving about and upright, but STR, WIS, and CHA can be safely ignored or dumped at the wizard's leisure; wisdom has little part in their game plan, strength is easily compensated for with magic, and charisma can be neatly bypassed by the unscrupulous with mind control or by the crafty using one of the many, many options that allow the wizard to port charisma-based skills to their intelligence score.

"Well, you...

The fighter is STR, DEX, WIS, CON in my opinion. The fighter is about tanking. High AC requires a high dex, armor training make you dex count in Full Plate. You need strength for damage output.

The Weapon and Armor Mastery guides solve the skill problem. You can use BAB as you skill rank on many skills. You can turn bravery into bonus on most all will saves with feat.


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taks wrote:
voska66 wrote:
They still have Magus Arcana as well. I don't see anything in the text saying HexArcana replace Magus Arcana.
It doesn't have to replace magus arcana, merely adding to it counts per this part: adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select. Adding a hex arcana to your list is equivalent to adding a feat to your bonus feat list in terms of "altering." I got tripped up on this at first, too.

But it doesn't add to magus arcana. Hex Arcana allows you to select Hex when you get a magus arcana.


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Imbicatus wrote:
taks wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Bladebound replaces the third level Magus Arcana, and Hexcrafter alters the entire Magus Arcana ability by adding Accursed Strike to the list. I don't know if that matters to your GM, of course.

I don't think it's fair to say that adding a hex to the list "alters the way the parent class feature works" (quoted from the PRD). Even allowing hexes in place of arcana doesn't really change "how it works," though I agree, the whole thing is pushing the boundary. Strangely, I haven't seen this discussed much.

Either way, I'm in the DEX camp, and not surprisingly, I prefer the bladebound hexcrafter, too. My magus did not take many hexes, but flight is indispensable. I did the standard dervish dancer build and had a lot of fun with it. So much so my current investigator is DEX to damage, too (with fencing grace, however).

EDIT: formatting fixed.

Fair or not, per the FAQ it's not legal.

FAQ wrote:
However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class.

That's correct only I don't see it applying to the Hexcrafter. The Hexcrafter gain a class feature HexArcana. They still have Magus Arcana as well. I don't see anything in the text saying HexArcana replace Magus Arcana.


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depends on the situation.

For example, party see a brown bear and walk around it. No exp for that. But say the party spot a marauding band of ogres. They are wounded and don't think they can take the fight so choose to hide. The ogres come looking around. A clear risk is present, the stealth rolls are high enough and the ogres leave. Then XP would be granted. It's that risk that must exist for XP to be granted, if there is no risk such as a party of stealth masters, no XP for hiding from encounters that could never find them in first place.

I also don't give XP for encounter that can not harm the PCs. So no XP for killing 1/2 CR commoners when you are 12th level.


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I'd consider TWF if the game was mythic. You get the stat boost to pull it off and mythic abilities to make it worth while.


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Porridge wrote:
(P.s.: Shouldn't this be in the "Rules Questions" section? I think I'll suggest that this be moved there, so that it'll catch the attention of the those best positioned to answer these kinds of questions.)

Why? The rules aren't in question. This thread is to discuss the feat and how it's ability to block a T-Rex (monster with a single attack) is the same problem people had with crane wing.

Personally I think using tower shield to block a T-Rex makes more sense than naked monk slapping the teeth away.


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The Barbarian was simple to use. Not as simple as fighter but a thousand times more simple than full caster.

I'd say the Barbarian was the weakest class after the monk and rogue. As more books came out and with some system master you could optimize a powerful barbarian. This created a small handful of complex barbarian builds while all other builds were weak and ineffective

Now with the Uchained barbarian I can't make those super optimized builds but all other builds now work well. You are almost as good a fighter now with Barbarian. I say that counting the Weapon Master and Armor Master books along with the goodies from Ultimate intrigue.


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The only downside is the prices for Staves is ridiculously high. Like so high you'd never buy one and if you find one you'll want to sell it. Only time I've seen staves in use is when the party can't find a settlement that pay the full price.


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This authority is something comes from role playing. You can start off with a good background story for a character and role play the connections. Then you can use that authority or earn it and have it given to you.


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You should ask you GM to implement influence from the Ultimate intrigue book. Then the party gets involved with the NPC interaction. You're face skills will be awesome and the knowledgeable character just as awesome. You'll both work together that way.

That's one of things I really liked about Ultimate Intrigue. It allow the party to be a part of social interactions. It's no longer just one die roll for the party face but the party face gets to really shine in spots.

It's bit of work for the GM at first as you figure it out but it works great with Adventure paths. You have the NPC detailed out with skills and stats in most cases. So it's trivial to select skills they can be influenced with.

I'm trying now to figure a way to stream line the process as GM for prep time and for times when players just take the game a direction I didn't expect.


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Brf wrote:
Gilfalas wrote:
Brf wrote:
ckdragons wrote:

Every city has a Max Spell Level description, so a small town like Ravengro has a max spell level of 4th (no one in town sells spellcasting or scrolls with spells above 4th level), or a large city as Caliphas has max spell level of 7th.

Settlements

That limit is for buying spells from spellcasters, not for scrolls.

Scrolls should be limited only by the price of the scroll itself.

Read what you just quoted. It specifically says scrolls as well.

Nope. If you follow the link, it says:

Quote:
Spellcasting Unlike magic items, spellcasting for hire is listed separately from the town's base value, since spellcasting is limited by the level of the available spellcasters in town. This line lists the highest-level spell available for purchase from spellcasters in town. A town's base spellcasting level depends on its type.
It says the limit is for spellcasting, not for scrolls.

That is correct, scrolls are determined by magic items. A 1D6 magic item could scrolls. As well is 75% chance that scroll you are looking for may be available if the price is under the Base Value of the settlement.


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They have rules for spells, getting new spells has cost but not an expensive cost. It requires a couple spell craft skill checks as well as hour per spell level.

So one 1st level spell would take 1 hour, cost 15 GP, and require DC 21 Spell Craft to read the spell and DC 16 to write the spell in your spell book. That spell will use up 1 page, a spell book as 100 pages. The cost is 10 GP to write and 5 GP get it from another wizard. A rare spell can be 2 or 3 times that price or more.

So as GM you can control. Buying scrolls is expensive and risky as you might fail the check and not get the spell. Either way the scroll is used up. You can use other wizards as plot devices to get access to their spells. Allow the capturing of enemy spell books. That's part of the fun in playing wizard or magus in my opinion.

For spell availability that's up to you based on guidelines in the Game Mastery Guide under settlements. You can use the Ultimate Equipment book to generate random scrolls.

So take a Hamlet of 25 people. It could have 1D6 minor items, mostly potions and scrolls on the minor magic treasure chart in the Core Rule Book at 68%. There might be 1 arcane caster with 2nd level spells who at best would indifferent to the PCs so Diplomacy or Intimate involved her. Maybe you could use Ultimate Intrigue here for more of social encounter.


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Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Only magical healing stops bleed. Fast healing is extraordinary (as are feats).

A DC 15 heal check also stops bleed and that's non magical.


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I don't see why this wouldn't work. It's just like swapping out Bard Performance with one archetype and adding 2 additional performances for the cost losing bardic knowledge and well versed. Seems to that would work. Still in the end it's really up to the GM to allow if you want to stack two archetypes that have grey areas like this.


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Aelryinth wrote:

The low level impact would be too huge.

The dif xp advances didn't really have that much impact at the low levels. It was when you got into Name level, and wizards took almost twice the xp to advance as Rogues did, that you started to see level difference.

I think I ran the math once, and a Fighter/20, Rogue/22, and Wizard/17 ended up around the same xp totals.

Slow vs fast is probably too big a gap. But medium vs Fast? Probably well doable. The problem is that they are still supposed to be 'equal', so what's the standard for gold and gear?

Just ugh. The system is too invested in levels now for calculating balance in the party. Your only alternative is to mess with the classes to restore equilibrium.

==Aelryinth

You could do effective level and actual level. Effective level for fighters is fast progression and actual level is medium. Wealth by level and APL is based actual level but effective level is what your class is based on. Going slow/medium or medium/slow the class that use the faster XP chart would be 1 level high at 5th level.

Also depending how the GM awards XP you could have those classes a level ahead sooner too. That's how we used to do it in 2E. Rogues were and cleric were shooting up in power fast at the low levels.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Water walking and water breathing. Both spells are 3rd level spells and you can cast them as 5th level cleric. Ring of water walking, potions of water breathing. A necklace of adaptation. That's about it really. There are more option if it's not CRB only. CRB seem strange for S&S as the AP uses option from the Ultimate Combat book.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'd say there is not equivalent to degree for skill. A degree is collection of learned skills. You would have a degree in stealth but stealth could be part of degree in subterfuge which would include stealth, sleight of hand, bluff, knowledges, appraisal, intimidate, diplomacy.

I mean there that saying about getting degree in basket weaving but that's just expression. No one learns just math in getting a degree for example.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sundakan wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Sundakan wrote:

Well, even at double digits your Fighter's Will is going to suck. +6 by level 20?

There are other ways to raise it, but +2 for a Feat is pretty solid.

More like +11. Cloaks are cheap. You can easily have a +5 CoR by 10th level. Not to mention bonuses from Wisdom, spells, traits, class features, racial traits and other save-boosting gear.

It's really, really easy to boost saving throws.

+11 is still pretty bad when at that level DC 27+ saves aren't uncommon.

Boostig saves is only easy if you take the options to boost saves. This is like saying a Cloak of Resistance isn't worthwhile because there are so many other ways to boost them.

I running a game right now for level characters. I haven't see a save DC above 20 yet on of the encounters I've put them against. Some of the save are as low a 12. So +11 is automatic for the low but then it should be for a CR 9 encounter especially if you invested in that save. A dragon has 24 reflex but I haven't sent them up against a dragon yet.


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Chess Pwn wrote:

One of the things here is Min/Max here is being misused by many people in this discussion.

Min/Max means get the Max benefit with the minimum investment, it's a way of thinking. Whatever rules you set, "nothing below 8 or above 16 after racials" you can still Min/Max. Like if I had a rule like that and wanted to Min/Max, I'd play a druid or summoner cause the Animal/Eidolon will have very comparable stats to everyone, so I really would be twice as strong as anyone else. Normally you'd need buffs and stuff and the Animal/Eidolon still fall behind other PC's, but if you nerf PC's then it's a lot of reward for very little investment.

And if you do Min/Maxing right you also optimize so you don't have glaring weaknesses, especially not more so than those who aren't. So "targeting their weakness" more really means "target everyone's weakness"

Also, limiting the floor a stat can be only lowers the point buy available to them. There's basically no difference between a 7 and a 12 charisma for someone that has a bard playing face. The real effect of a "nothing below 8 after racials" is probably a -1 to AC or Will saves or HP per level as those are the places that the extra points go. There's a reason a guide to a wizard says, "with a 15pt buy get an 18 int, with a 25pt buy get an 18 int." cause all the other stats are just nice to have after setting your main stat to the right place.

I see min maxing as maxing out one thing and living with the minimum in others. Like maxing out offense and not worrying about defense. It works most of the time and when it doesn't no remembers. When it comes to party imbalance as GM I see more with tactics.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

In a group 4 out 5 love role playing and a neutral to combat then having the min/max character who loves combat is a good thing. The min/max character will enjoy the combat and end the combat quicker allow those the love role playing to get more of what they want.

As well to deal with a person that min maxes you target the minimums. By targeting their minimums the rest of the party is unaffected as they are not min maxed. Don't do this all the time, let min/max character shine from time to time just don't let them all the time.

Now if you are talking optimized that's not min maxed. That's just best combination of abilities that give you a very strong balanced character. The people that don't optimize generally have more weakness and few strengths but they do have strength so play them up.

The rule bending and twisting interpretation, you need set it that your ruling are the rule. Write down you ruling so the play doesn't forget.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I see this as good act not evil. The cleric in this case can only exert influence with in their sphere of influence. In this negotiation the character was able move the slaver to a different position. Not the ideal position but baby step in the right direction. Nothing evil about not being successful as you'd wish.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This sounds like player who don't know what to name their character yet and therefore won't give a name they don't have. They don't want you giving them a name. Maybe they will figure out a name but I've seen a game where player never came up with name.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What wishlist do you wish existed and why?

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