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Droogami

voska66's page

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber. 2,377 posts. No reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist.


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I like Pathfinder as is in the sense that I don't need a new edition. Sure there are some things that bother me but they are minor. An upgrade to the fighter and rogue for example would be great. So feats I feel could change. Some feat trees could be condensed into a single scaling feat. None of this would require a new version of the game but the core rule book could be reworked to work with later books.


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Aratrok wrote:
Outlander is a campaign trait for Rise of the Runelords, so it's not available unless your GM explicitly allows you to snipe campaign traits from APs.

While it is a RotRL Trait it is also an APG campaign trait. The funny thing about this is when I made a Character for RotRL I chose a trait from the APG when I didn't have the players guide. Later downloading it I found the trait I chose. What coincidence. It would outlander exile.


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Starting at 1st especially when you are high level is really a bad idea. The reason is the the character would stopping game time as they level up after every encounter. Talk about a why to kill game time only rush a character through levels in over of few encounters only to end up 1 level below the party.


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Thormind wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:


1) Boots of speed grant Haste. Haste specifically does not work with speed weapons. Still only getting a cap of 5 attacks per round.

2) 5*(40)=200 but you have not counted your to hit. You haven't calculated dpr at all. We need the hit numbers because honestly it doesn't matter how many attack you have if they're all terrible.

3) Level 13 200 DPR is not hard.

1) true, i got mixed with the Slayer, he gets 6th from high BAB. My rogue only has 5, thats why all my numbers were with 5 attacks.

2) Sure i can include to hit. Just like the Barb 3rd attack (with no speed) my fifth attack is not reliable. The thing is me losing one hit is a lower lost than a barb losing one. And to kill most stuff at my lvl i do not need to hit with all my attacks.

3) Don't know, maybe we are not expert at creating characters. All i know is that when we started at lvl 1 the barb felt way more powerful than all the other characters. But the more we advanced in lvl, the more the rogue started to get en edge. Now at 13 in my group they all see my rogue as a bit overpowered (even me).

This came as a surprise because when i started reading the forums i kept seeing post about rogue being weak. The same thing is happening with the caster of the group. He was created as a blaster. Almost all guide in the advice section say not to do so, that it is weaker. The melee in the group are complaining because he kills most stuff before they can get one attack in...

I think if you are finding yourself a bit over powered that probably means you are fight CR 12-14 encounters. That's fine but there should also be a few CR 15 and maybe 1 CR 16. A CR 16 fight will show you how weak the rogue is and that is level appropriate encounter that will 1/3 to 1/2 the party resources.

At Level 13 you probably has 22-25 attack bonus in flanking position. A CR 13 you need 3 to hit a typical monster but CR 16 you will 50% or less with your primary attack. As you go up that gets worse and find pretty soon you need 15 or higher on your primary attack. The monster has more hit points that you could do if all your attacks hit. It deals enough damage in full attack to drop you and only needs 4 or better to hit you. This doesn't mean it's impossible to play a rogue, you just hang back hiding and wait for the monster to take enough damage that you can kill in with 1 attack. That blaster caster is you friend here.


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Thelemic_Noun wrote:

Why the hell did Weapon Finesse not do Dex to both attack and damage with finessable weapons?

This problem goes back all the way to 3.0 in the year 2000, and even cropped up in the Star Wars RPG. What was the design intent behind it?

The design intent is there for balance. By design some classes are more powerful but balanced by requiring multiple attributes to be effective. Allow Dex to damage means one less stat you need in point buy and you can dump it down to max out dex. This may cause some classes to be more powerful that should be.

Then there is str stat, it's use would be reduced.

I think those are the argument behind it. Personally I don't buy it. It uses up feats and those are in short supply. I'd go higher strength to save few feats many instances as well as to fit a concept. I'd go dex to damage for concept.


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Thormind wrote:
Orthos wrote:

Sounds like your Paladin and Barbarian are either badly made or badly played then.

Without being able to look in on your game in more detail, I'm not sure how you're pulling that off. Every rogue we've had in ours has lagged behind the rest of the party significantly, and there's a LOT of evidence on the forums of other groups doing likewise, as well as mechanical examination of its failings.

Rogue with greater two weapon fighting and/or boots of speed and/or a speed weapon has 5-6 attacks on a full round. Base weapon damage 1d6+4 when sneaking(i am using swords of dubtlety). Base sneak damage 5d6 per attack. So total 6d6+4 per attack time 5 attacks = 50-200 dmg per round. It can even be higher if you add two weapon rend (1d10+1 1/2str per round). I might be wrong but i doubt any other melee class (outside a Slayer) can reach that...

Yes there are other classes that get many skills but none get that high dmg and defense. And not many get trapfinding and trapspoter.

My barbarian does 140-228 damage a round assuming all my attacks hit which they won't. Starting with a +31 to hit which means I can actually hit CR appropriate encounters with an AC of 38. For defense my AC is 28 with 8 DR and a crap load of hit points that probably double a rogues. There's a fighter in the game that out damages me using the Two Handed Weapon fighter and he has a 34 AC in Full Plate.


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Thormind wrote:

Just for fun i created a lvl 13 Slayer to compare with my lvl 13 Rogue. I used same base stat, same gear and same combat style (Dex two weapon fighting)

The Slayer is just superior in combat. Full BAB gives him more attacks per round with higher hit chances. He lose some dice of sneak dammage but it is largely compensated by the hit/dmg bonuses he gets from studied target. He also has better saving throws and they are boosted again by studied target.

Skillwise he loses trapfinding but he has access to it from a talent. He has a little bit less skill points and different class skills but again this is compensated by studied target.

He has access to almost all good rogue talents and he gets new ones.

Like if that was not enough the Stygian Slayer archetype was added:

-Invisibility more than once per day for a single talent: no talent better than that anyway.
-The ability to use wand and staff to cast some extremely useful spells as a caster: you lose some small bonuses to a few skills.
-The ability to cast BOTH gaseous form and fog cloud on yourself for 7 minutes per day for a single talent: no talent better than that anyway...
-You lose medium and heavy armor but if you are dex based, most of the time you do not use these to keep your dex bonus.

Conclusion: This class should have been given 3/4 BAB like the rogue

I say the opposite, the Rogue should be Full BAB. Even at full BAB the rogue would be weaker than the Slayer. The rogue is the weakest class in the game, don't measure against it. I don't really see the slayer replacing a rogue anymore than the ranger did.


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There's one player that has Summoning App on his IPad. That's been great as he can pull up the stats for summoning much quicker. Definitely speeds up the game.

I use my IPAD for the rules books, it's the main reason I subscribed to get the PDFs. I have also used a laptop when I GM, there are tons of site with random encounter generators, treasure generators, dungeon generators, name generators and other useful tools. Some you pay for most you don't.

I think being able to text at the table would be great as GM. Not everyone has phone though. If they did I could send player specific details to them with out other knowing and it would be less intrusive than passing a note.


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Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:
A feat is a lot less of a hit than a 2 level class dip.

That's debatable. I have 10 feats and only 20 levels. Having to spend a feat to get a class ability that I can get with a 2 level dip is a lot more to me than a 2 level dip. I'm usually feat starved when ever I play a divine caster. Just too many feats I want and not feats to take them. So a 2 level dip in Paladin is worth in most cases. The biggest reason I won't take a 2 level dip into Paladin is the alignment.

Edit, still don't like this feat though. I'd HATE to see an caster focused Oracle with having +10 to saves due to 30 CHR.


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I don't view hit points a physical damage rather pool of endurance active avoiding taking damage. When you do take damage you are in negative hit points. Exceed you con and you die. For some people taking any physical damage of significance means they are down and out. For others they can fight on some better than other depending on feats and racial abilities. So shooting a flying dragon isn't harming them yet but they lose altitude when they take damage they are spending hit points to avoid death by say flying in manner that could cause them to lose altitude.

I look at it like this because it doesn't make any sense that you can get stabbed once at first level but you can get stabbed a hundred time at level 20. It just makes more sense that you avoid the stab by spending hit points. Not mechanical change just way of looking at it.


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Threeshades wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

Those who think 5th Edition D&D simplifies things: That may be true right now, but wait a couple of years, and it will bloat right up -- just like 3.5 (in the last couple of years, Wizards of the Coast seemed to have been in a hurry to drive bloat).

Again the simplicity in 5e DnD has nothing to do with the volume of rules available. The gameplay itself has been simplified, much less math, almost all temporary modifiers result in you maybe rolling an extra die here or there and that's it, on the off chance someone has resistance or weakness to some form of damage you might actually multiply someting by two or halve it. In PF you start adding subtracting, multiplying and doing all sorts of other things to your nbumbers before you roll.

And also again, all additional rules to be released will be just as optional as they are with pathfinder.

I don't have problems in PF with attack numbers. I create a sheet with all the bonus and work it out for that level. So when I'm power attacking with Rage I have line for that. I'm not sure if this something they put in the strategy guide but sure is helpful and speeds the game up a lot.


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Lemmy wrote:
blahpers wrote:
I have never felt that I was "sitting out" of the game when playing a fighter, in combat or out of combat. If you do feel that way, then by definition the GM has failed.

That's not a definition of anything. Not everything is the GM's fault.

If a player makes a character who can't do anything significant in a given situation, then he's the one to blame for feeling left out when that situation comes up.

If that situation is something as common as "being in combat" or "not being in combat", then the player who made a poor decision.

The decision on if game is going to have lot of combat to a lot out of combat or anywhere in between lies solely with the GM. So it's more of an uninformed decision than a poor decision. When I'm starting a new game I inform my player to the level of combat vs non combat. Then if the players focus on too much when I've informed then that truly is a poor decision if they are unhappy about it. If they are happy with that then all is good.


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I don't see this swashbuckler as over powered. It suffers all the same set back any martial class has.


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cnetarian wrote:
Swashbuckler doesn't really obsolete any melee class that I can see, maybe the fighter going into duelist but that's about it. Now Slayer however, well the rogue was bad enough but I cannot see any reason to take a rogue when slayer is available.

I'm playing a Slayer now, it's no rogue that's for sure. I can fill the place of rogue by taking disable traps but that's really it. When I make rogue I'm not making a damage dealer. I find making rogue that can fight to be a trap. No matter how much I try it never works. So I focus on non combat stuff like picking talents to augment what I can do with feats and skills. So really all the slayer replaces is the fighting rogue which never worked well to begin with.

Now saying that, if you play a game where you need a rogue who can fight take the slayer. If you play a game where GM plays up opportunities for the rogue go with rogue, the slayer doesn't that well. Also if you compare the slayer to the CRB rogue only the slayer replaces that rogue easily. It's the stuff in the APG and UC that make the roguish in my opinion.

I like talents like Black Market ties, convincing lie, Charmer, hard to fool, honeyed words, quick disguise, and stuff like that. Not very usuful in combat but very useful in campaign where the GM lets you use that. As GM I want a rogue that can do these thing, never see it though. They always go the combat route.


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Rogues piss me off. When I'm the gm and someone plays a rogue I know I have extra work to do to make the character feel useful. I should say it's more about how they are played. I mean I toss out bones and the rogues never take them, they focus too much on being a fighter and maximizing DPR. All this while I've dropped opportunity after opportunity for them to maximize their skills and talents to gain more wealth and information. But's all ignored then they complain at high level that they can't take hit and can hit anything.


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I've played the Metal Oracle and the Battle Oracle. I found the Metal mystery much more useful. I found armor Mastery and Dance of blades better than anything you get from Battle. With battle Oracle was I could get weapon focus at 1st level but the problem was I didn't have martial weapons so if I picked that first I had to choose a simple weapon. But then I take Extra Revelation as feat to get the proficiencies. So it all works. Problem is now I have all the revelation I want out of the class by 3rd level except for the one where I need a high level.

With the metal Oracle I found it easier. I didn't need the martial weapons at 1st so I took Dance of Blades at 1st level as I couldn't afford medium armor. At 3rd I grabbed proficiencies and too weapon focus as feat. At 5th armor mastery going with Breast plate which allowed me to use my Dex of 4. Of course this was all before the Ultimate Campaign, now I'd do a Battle Oracle with weapon focus simple weapon the train it out to martial weapon at level 2 saving me a feat.


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Boon companion is 3 levels. It makes you count as a 4th level druid if you take with at 4th level as Ranger which you can't as you don't get a feat a 4th level. I think that's why people think it gives you 4 levels, they forget that 4th level is 1 druid level when they grab the feat at 5th level.


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Just keep the ranger and stock up on wands. You will do fine. The party offense between the fighter and ranger will really kill things fast. Pick UMD, you won't be trained in it but grabbing skill focus and circlet of persuasion puts you at +19 at level 10 with +0 for CHR. Then pick up a bunch of cleric scrolls.


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I stumbled upon this and really LOVE what I saw. I'm going to use it it for lots of stuff in the coming future!

What book are these option rules in?


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My Barbarian was running up these rickety stairs on the inside of tower. We had to make acrobatics or dex checks every so often. My dex wasn't bad and I did have few ranks in acrobatics but rolled terrible. I ran up to 40 feet and fell, up to 80 and fell. I got up close to the top then failed reflex save when large dropped on us and down I went again. I had a ton of hit points a high con stat and rolling lucky on my hit points. I rolled 12 for hit points 3 time in row leveling up. By the time I got the top so the cleric could heal me I had to rage to keep myself alive. My friends still talk about that one.


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I don't want a new edition. I want a evolution to the current rules set. The Ultimate classes and upcoming PF unchained seems to be doing just that. This is something I like compared to ceasing all that is PF today and started over with 2.0. I hate it when new editions come out. First you invested so much in the current edition and then you are moving to new version of the same game where content has yet to be released so you have to wait for years to get to where you were with current edition and repeat.

It's not so much the money but the lack of rules content that comes with new editions. Like take the 3.5 to PF change. You multiple monster manuals and now you have 1 bestiary which over the years became 4 and NPC guide. A new edition brings us back to 1. Sure you can convert content but that's a lot work. That's just what small changes do. Say a entirely new direction, like what D&D did. Well conversion isn't even option really. So while I can buy it all again I just hate having to wait 5-6 years for it all to come out again in different version.


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I've never had a problem with high level play. When playing high level I avoid fighters and rogues unless I'm multiclassing. I had 18th level Barbarian that was blast to play in RotRL. I was a casters nightmare and loved Spell Sunder.

When I gm a high level game I run the 10+ much differently than lower that than 10th level. I use the first 10 levels to set things up for high level play. They get the contacts, responsibilities and such. When I don't do this high level characters are like dropping nuke into a setting when there is no care on the impact of such action. Just scry and fry with out consequences. Who cares about the aftermath in the area or have no effect at all. Actions need consequence in high level play or just goes crazy. The only way you can have consequences is getting the players invested in the setting.


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For this build if you have the Ultimate Class Guide you can use the Eldritch Scion archetype. It's a spontaneous caster using CHR as the casting stat. Intelligence isn't all that useful for Paladin but CHR sure is so useful for saves and to hit bonus when smiting. On top of that you could grab 4 levels of Dragon Disciple too for +4 str as you'd be spontaneous arcane caster.


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Wizards are not an automatic win, far from it really. What a wizard brings is versatility at high level. They have much larger tool kits. Compare that to the fighter with a hammer and that's all he gets. Feats to go to making the hammer more effective but it's still just a hammer and when there are no nails to pound the fighter is out of luck. The wizard has something almost any situation.

As for class that = win I've seen fighter dish out so much damage that they tend to win fights faster more often than a wizard does. But then there are fights where the fighter is all but useless. That's rare for the wizard useless once they get high enough level.


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A ring of Spell Spell Knowledge from the Ultimate Equipment. There is one for 1st level up to 4th level spells. You can put a spell in with DC 20 Spellcraft to teach the ring the spell. Then you can use the spell and one of you known spells. You can even put spell that aren't on the wizards/sorcerer spell list but the count a level higher. So if you have 4th level ring you can put any 4th level or lower spell on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list or any 3rd level or lower spell from any other spell list. Want cure light? Counts a 2nd level spell and you can spontaneously cast it as known spell.


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DrDeth wrote:

Don't dump wisdom. You will rue that over and over.

Start with Fey Foundling, Power Attack.

The problem with taking weapon focus falchion, is what happens if you find a Holy Greatsword?

Extra lay on hands is good.

Then see how the campaign goes.

See- what happens if you find you need to give more healing? Or you find a cool weapon or shield? or there's lost of touch attacks (then Dodge looks good), etc.

Every table is different.

Paladin's dump stat is Wisdom. They have a Good Wil save and Divine Grace at 2nd level. At an 8 he have a +5 will save at 2nd level. That's not too shabby for 2nd level and it just goes up from there. I'd be more worried about the 10 dex and poor reflex save.


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Michael Smith 978 wrote:

Hey all. Tis me, he who asked about dodge on a paladin (I've settled on "no" for that one). I have another question: Is Weapon Focus (greatsword in this case) worth taking? Here's my initial stat block at level 1 (20 pt build).

STR- 16 (14+2 human)
DEX- 10
CON- 15
INT- 10
WIS- 8
CHA- 16

Feats- Fey Foundling, Power Attack

Base Attack- 4 (+1 class, +3 STR)

Yes, I know that this isn't min/max'ed. Yes, I know I could pick up another 2 attribute points using the Dual Talent alternate race feature. I may in the end go that way, but am leaning heavily against it at this point because I want three skills built up over the course of the build (initimidate, knowledge (religion), use magic device).

Alright, given all of that, should I consider taking weapon focus at some point, and if so, should I do it at level one in place of Power Attack? I'm not really sold on Weapon Focus, but then again, +1 never hurts to have.

Some feats I'm looking at down the road (some I'm more solid about than others:

Furious Focus
Extra Lay On Hands
Greater Mercy
Cornugon Smash (I'm making an intimidate build)
Intimidating Prowess (see above)
Cleave
Great Cleave
Toughness
Dazzling Display
Shatter Defenses
-Step Up Chain
-Improved Crit chain

Dual Talented isn't worth giving up a feat and skill point ever level for +1 stat bonus.

As for Weapon Focus, I never take weapon focus unless it's prereq for other feats like Weapon Specialization or Dazzling Display. Since you have Dazzling Display listed you need Weapon focus so pick up Weapon focus sometime prior to that feat. Go with Power Attack, Furious Focus at first level. That's when you get the most bang for you buck out it.


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I have a Character Ranger Guide/Red Mantis Assasin. The concept was bounty hunter that was more about bring he prey in dead for the fee. He was approached by the Red Mantis assassins with offer to work for them due to cold hearted efficiency. The Ranger Guide fit ok but now that I see the Slayer that's the class he should be. When the book come out I'm going rebuild him as Slayer RMA. Can't wait!


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K177Y C47 wrote:
Ok.. htis is actually pretty awesome... poor fighter though...

Fighter is still my go to class for tanking up. Nothing come close. Tried the Armored Hulk barbarian and it just didn't match up. I still the find the fighter suffers too few skill points and poor saves though.


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Rynjin wrote:

Honestly, it might be a losing battle. Rise of the Runelords is by FAR the easiest of the APs I've played.

Even if your archer tones it down, without heavy alterations you're not going to see a ton of change except instead of the archer killing everything, you'll see the archer killing a lot of things while the rest of the party facerolls over the rest.

I found RotRL to be one of the harder APs. If you play it with 15 pt buy it's quite difficult compared to later APs.


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I'd play a Magus in this game. I'd pretend to be a fighter and use spell covertly.


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Sounds like you players have flair for the dramatic. My players just marched a army down main street and kicked the palace doors in. They cleared the place in no time, it was a breeze.

I'd suspect nuking Pitax would make annexing them quite a bit more difficult.


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Eldmar wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


So basically you have to change the rules to force the rogue to be useful. That is not evidence in your favor or the rogue's.

With that aside even in core you don't need a rogue. Summon an animal to set the trap off, or just use dispel magic unless the GM is trying to force you to have a rogue in the party. Traps are normally set up in their location so you just make sure you are not in the room when it goes off.

How is playing with the core book / rules changing the rules or as someone else said earlier playing a different game? All the other books are optional extras, just because they have been published doesn't mean that they 'must' be used.

As far as the summon animal suggestion - well that is great as long as you have enough of them to cover the entire adventure, because in most dungeons you shouldn't get chance to rest and recover. Also doesn't help if traps are not one time only. For example when there is an area of a 'revolving floor' trap that revolves with anyone stepping on it, dropping them into a pit and is too far to jump. Now sending your summoned critter across sets off the trap and drops to it's doom, then seconds later the lead pc walks across the trap because it is safe now right and, oh crap I am falling into a deep spike filled pit.... A rogue on the other hand could have used disable device to jam the mechanism and everyone could then walk safely across. It sounds like your gm's have no idea how to construct traps.

Anyone can take disable device and take the vagabond child trait to get a +1 trait bonus making it a class skill. Between that and spells you should be good to go.


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Ssalarn wrote:
Petty Alchemy wrote:

Oftentimes in stories, rogues take advantage of their terrain or exploit weaknesses in magic to overcome their difficulties.

See Aladdin. There's all sorts of obstacles for him to acrobatically take advantage of, he tricks Jafar into a form that the universe regulates.

This requires a story centered on him.

In Pathfinder, combat is a large part of the game, so you can't just run and expect the party to run with you and have fun. Magic doesn't really have any exploits to take advantage of. And standing, well, rogues ain't so hot at that for reasons discussed.

A rogue with a party is far more restricted in how he can deal with problems, and magic does what skills do but many times better.

This touches on another Rogue issue, what I like to call "Getting screwed by the loud clumsy oaf in full plate who just got a -4 on his Stealth check". I don't know about you, but this is an iconic Rogue moment in groups I've played in. The Rogue has had a few harrowing near death experiences after getting too far ahead of the group, so now he tries to stick with the group so he doesn't get caught in the middle of a group of enemies with his pants down. That usually ends up playing out something like this:

Cleric: *rolls Perception check, succeeds* "Hey guys, it sounds like there's a group of orcs partying just up ahead."

Rogue: "Excellent! This is our chance to get the drop on them. Stay close on my heels and we'll take these guys down before they even know what hit them." *rolls Stealth check* "Hah! 32! I'd like to see the orc who can perceive that."

GM: "Okay, since you guys are traveling in a fairly close group I'll need Stealth checks from the rest of you as well."

Dwarven Fighter: "Let's see, that's a 10 on the die, -6 for my full plate, -2 for my heavy shield, +0 for my base skill modifier... What's a 2 do for you?"

GM: "The orcs have heard your approach. As you spring from the trees they stand ready to meet...

The fighter wouldn't be that bad. For the rogue to get 32 on roll assuming a roll of would 22 bonus. Lets assume 5 from magic, 6 from Dex, 3 Class skill. So that mean 8 ranks of stealth so 8th level rogue. Now 8th level fighter with 2 levels of armor training, the armor expert trait in mitheral full plate and shield would have ACP penalty of 0. Adding shadow to the plate is fairly cheap so 10 +5 for shadow, +3 for Dex. The fighter would have 18 Stealth. Any fighter wanting ambush would have some ranks in Stealth as well if they went to expense to put shadow on their armor. This cost just over 1/2 your wealth by level to get +1 Mitheral Full plate and Shield.

Also if I were the rogue I'd kick some GP towards the fighter getting Shadow armor. I need flanking partner after all and if I can ambush with the fighter that's good for me. The cleric and wizard can use invisibility.

Of course I've seen the fighters that don't synergize well the rogue. I always try to be stealthy with my fighters as it helps the rogue big time. Gives my fighter something to do out of combat too.


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Dannorn wrote:
Ok can someone explain why they're saying Rogues have bad to-hit? I'm just not getting it, aside from not being full BAB how is a Rogues ability to hit, or to improve their to-hit, any worse than any other 3/4 BAB class?

Rogue have a bad to hit because they 3/4 BAB with no in class method of increasing their to hit bonus. Simple as that. Every other 3/4 BAB class can increase attack bonus via class feature or buff spells.

Then to make it worse most rogue builds go Two Weapon Fighting which makes sense since you have the DEX to do it and it works really well at the lower levels. At the higher levels the -2 to hit impacts you more because monster AC is much higher. Also add the fact that monster AC at the higher CRs is typically higher than they were in 3.5 and the rogue didn't get anything boost their to hit.


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The adventure has captured my attention but I'm loving the extras with the book.


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Seannoss wrote:

Fleet charge actually enables a full round attack every round in addition to that extra attack, so it should be looked at as it is the most powerful champion ability.

I would suggest using slow xp and limiting mythic tiers. I nerfed mythic power attack and removed legendary weapon and mythic vital strike.

How did you nerf mythic power attack. I nerfed it by accident, misread the rule and though you spent as swift action to make your attacks that round with no minus. We've just playing it like that and it works quite well, then I noticed it was 1 mythic power for 1 minute. Well seeing as worked great when we were doing it wrong we just kept it like that, 1 minutes seem too powerful.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
The "modern updated information" for a TWF Rogue is the Slayer. It's a class being introduced in the Advanced Class Guide (you can download the fully playable beta for free on this site) that gets sneak attack and full BAB. You're going to have a lot of trouble hitting things with a default Rogue; I'd highly recommend looking up the Slayer, it has a lower skill floor and a higher skill ceiling than the CRB Rogue and will do what you want your Rogue to do much better.

The Slayer isn't a great replacement for rogue. I'm playing one right now and find I'm more ranger like than rogue except that I have trap finding and so far very few traps in WotR. Been more than once my party turned to me to do the rogue thing only to tell them I can't. Sure I find traps and sneak attack but don't expect me to be the party face or have nifty contacts with the black market.


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What you do is bring the concept to your GM then sit down and build the Character with him. I'm a GM and I actually love that when a player has cool concept with a bit of exotic build. I'll even bend the rules here and there to make it work if doesn't break the game.

What's annoying is when a player show up the table with character like that and I have no idea what it's about. Then I'm stuck on the spot trying to find rules I know little about.


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Just an game mechanic that makes fighter a bit better in armor than other classes.

In real life I'm guess you would train in armor to use it more effectively.


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The thing with healing is it situational. It's needed but only when it's needed. So best to make sure you can do something else beside healing. I think that's what gets people rallying against healers.

I know if was to play a healer I'd make sure I was useful in other ways by going with higher str off the start and lower Wisdom that I raise with level stat increases. That way I can contribute in combat as flanker, dishing out decent damage. Nothing spectacular but pretty good if I buff up first.


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High stats do make the monk powerful but they have to be really high. Nothing a 25 point buy will do. I've seen some crazy powerful monks from when a player rolled some crazy high stats.


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I've seen an Inquisitor, Bard, and Ranger party that was insanely powerful. The buffs from the BARD on the Ranger and Inquisitor made they very very tough.


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I found mythic just meant taking more time to create encounters. I had to be more creative. As well I find changing the reward from loot to information makes the game work better. Information can be leveraged for loot. What this gets away from is kill and loot mentality. Kill and loot is ok for time but you need more to drive a story at high level and with mythic tiers.

I like to make just killing the bad guy a worse situation. Like if you scry and fry the Wizard King dictator. The replacement is that much worse and has much more support than the old dictator. Had the players played some politics and set up their own representative thing would be much better.


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Anzyr wrote:
Casters are important because they are simply put stronger then other classes. A party of Fighter/Rogue/Cavalier/Gunslinger is going to die horribly to any AP without extreme GM deus ex machina.

Not really, if you notice in an AP they always have a solution to a problem where magic is not required. Magic make things easier but an all martial party is very strong. Brute force works when you that kind of raw DPR. Healing is the only real issue I find in groups like that.


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I find the most common problem in character creation is deciding a play a class then trying to make the class fit with a concept. I'm guilty of this in particular with new classes. I find my best characters are the one were I have decided what I want my character to be then I look to the classes to see what build meets that concept.

So for example I could up with character. A seedy information broker, my character is the one people come to for information. I'm inspired by Vary's the Spider from Game of Thrones but I don't want to aristocrat and more in the shadows. With this basis I start defining what I want my character to able. He should be decent at combat as his profession requires him to defend himself but he no warrior. He should have the high presence of con man and be street smart. Quick on feet and knows when to run instead of fight. Capable of disappearing into the crowds.

With this I start looking at races, classes, archetypes, prestige class and combinations to make this concept come alive. In this case the rogue is ideal for this concept. It has the skills, the combat ability, and the rogue talents. I'd pick archetype that ditches trap finding as that's not what this concept is about. I take the half elf and swap out Adaptability for Integrated and Keen Sense for Wary. I take the Spy Archetype. I'd pick the rogue talent that help my ability to bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate. I plan for late in the Game, level 8 probably of going with the Spy Master.


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137ben wrote:
blahpers wrote:


As for brokenness, show me an RPG you can't break and I'll show you a game that isn't really an RPG.

3.5 using only the barbarian, rogue, spellthief, hexblade, marshal, ranger, scout, warlock, warmage, and fighter.

Oh, and, another one:
3.5 using only the bard, beguiler, binder, dread necromancer, duskblade, ranger, swordsage, psionic warrior, and warblade.

Are either of those 'not really RPGs'?

3.5 was severely broken when you wanted to break it. What you show above is a very good attempt at not breaking the game with examples of class selection. You can also add in house rule to do that same.

Personally I find the biggest thing that keeps games from not going sideways is use the stats the game was designed for, 15 pt buy. Then prepare as GM and learn how to challenge your players.


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What APs beyond Wrath of Righteous got to level 20. Most go to level 18, the odd on as low as level 13.


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magnuskn wrote:
The AP is actively written to discourage evil characters. I'd recommend against playing one, because you'll force the GM to rewrite the entire campaign to suit your character.

I'm half way through GMing this AP and if there was an evil Character I'd change nothing. Even if it was evil party I'd change nothing. It would make for interesting change. I'd insist the party or character be anti-demon. They need a reason to fighting against the demons after all but AP would work just fine. It would more difficult at times though.


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I go by RAW, cheat death leaves you alive stable at negative hit points. How that is explained is up the GM with help from the players but in the end the rule states you are alive.

Sounds to me that youf GM should just not allow hero points to be spent on Cheat Death instead of making up excuses why it doesn't work. Excuses when the GM is control of it doesn't really make sense. I mean you cheat death, spend your points now it's up to the GM to figure out how it plays out. The GM saying you can't because of X when the GM is the in control of X doesn't make sense.

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