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I did a mashup of the Cavalier and the Fighter in combination with the Super Genius Games "The Talanted Fighter"...Is it too much?

Its kinda a mashup, and definitely better than the Fighter, or the Cavalier, but I don't think by an insane amount. They are classes that needed a boost.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Blame Demons:

"Crap, Those angel jerks now have Superheroes to help them"

"What are they called?"

"Paladins"

"Lets have our own superheroes then. But what too call them......"

"Well being the personification of sloth, how about anti paladins"


I actually never meant that a Fighter having an army was in it of itself bad.

I do think that longterm army management belongs more in a Kingdom game:

HOWEVER. There can indeed be rules for armies, and how a Fighter could have better armies then other classes.

You know what rules would be nice? Rules for Training soldiers. And Make it that the Fighter (Or whatever class) could do it faster, cheaper, better.

There, fighter now has more influence over the world.

In fact it provides a IG mechanic too do the exact same thing that a OOG mechanic about flocking followers too do the exact same thing:

People are flocking towards you in order to gain the honor of being TAUGHT by you.


You know. Leadership. One of the feats that first banned off the table.


There is only one kind of game where armies feel decent:

Games with Also Kingdom management. Thats it.

Edit:

OK Kirth. I VERY much disagree with you and all your forms of evidence. Lets leave it at that.

I don't have the energy to hash this out longer.


But the average D&D world assumes that your heroes are plucky adventurers.

Not army leaders. What if my Fighter has a Charisma, Wisdom, and Intelligence scores of 4, he hates people and doesn't trust many other too work with him.

Do they follow him anyway? If they follow an idiot like that why wouldn't the Follow the Paladin or a Wizard?

And the worst reason for balance is because it can just get replicated with some roleplaying:

What if my Wizard becomes the King of an Empire? Then he essentially can have the fighters class ability easily.

Unless NOW your rules would prevent anybody from getting an army except a fighter?


Let me explain:

The D&D world assumes that the world works similarly too our world, yet it has more variables (AKA Magic) that our world doesn't have.

Your idea FORCES a certain kind of play. And your making an uneven comparison:

Wizards Having magic is not how it works:

Its assumed in the average D&D game that magic exists, therefore there is a guy that can manipulate that force. If magic didn't exist, or was not manipulatable, then there would be no wizards.

Your rule is a meta construct. By Desert settings and Horror settings I meant that its supposed to make you feel ISOLATED.

"Oh no we are trapped in Ravenloft!...Ah well. Still got my army with me WEEEEEEEE"


You don't get it:

Wizards have a Spell that allows them too mind control stuff. But if the creature is immune too mind control thats something else. The Wizard might not even have the spell

The issue with a Fighter that auto has followers that forces the GAME WORLD too act a certain way:

What if Im in a desert setting? A Survival Horror setting?

Balancing the Fighter around the assumption that there will be any followers AT ALL, is just wrong in my opinion.


LMPjr007 wrote:

"believe nothing what you hear and 50% for what you see."

The Immortal Words of the Martian Manhunter. ; D


master_marshmallow wrote:
Paladin, Cavalier, Magus at level 13.

Also Gunslinger (Gun Tank), Crusader Cleric, Armored Hulk Barbarian, Metal Oracle. Pretty sure some other guys too.

Quote:
The fighter can move at full speed

AKA -10 feet. Whilst I only remember the Metal Oracle Getting essentially exactly the same thing as armor training only as a single part of its class, there are plenty of other classes that also give a +10 Foot bonus.

Quote:
and can use +4 more DEX

Gun Tank Gunsliger.

Quote:
without having to buy mithral

AKA one of the cheapest things you can buy.

Quote:
Sure the other classes can do that, but the fighter can do it for free.

Nope. Other classes can.

Quote:
So I guess those feats that allow for more versatility in combat really don't?

You mean the ones with huge feat chains? Or the ones that work with Only Unarmed Sktrike?

Quote:
Does everyone just assume that all fighters just take the vital strike chain?

No, we just assume they take the build that does the most damage in order to keep up with the other classes.

Quote:
You have no examples of a class doing anything better than the fighter, you are just saying that they do.

Do you want some basic examples?

OK, GunSlingers Dex too damage rolls means that with Maximized average Dexterity, it can get +13 too damage rolls. Without magic weapons or anything else. Then we can start adding on Pistolero, Magic weapons, and all the other good stuff that greatly beats out the fighter. And we can double the amount of attacks made with a Double Barrel pistol. Against Touch AC.

Quote:
Do I have to list every feat chain, combat style, and their merits that may take more than 3 or 4 feats to do effectively? Fighters can do a lot more in combat than just bumping their own numbers.

Sure. Do it.


master_marshmallow wrote:


Fighters can achieve the best AC in the game with armor, as well as the absolute most consistent damage because they lack any consumable daily resource. 15 minute work days do not exist to the fighter.
The fighter who specialized can do more in combat than anyone else. Just because he doesn't get pounce like a barbarian, or smite like a paladin doesn't make him suck in combat, because again, he has no resources to burn through.

All of those are a lie.

Lots of other Classes can use heavy armor.
Plenty of other class builds exceed the Fighter, even with no consumables.

Neither of the above make any of the classes better at combat though as pure DPR and pure AC doesn't exist in a vacuum and they are likely too be targeted by different things as well.

But they can still do the above BETTER then the fighter, and then some.


master_marshmallow wrote:

I'm fine with saying the fighter should be the one who can single man plow through any terrain and clear a path for his teammates to get through.

Climb the cliff first, drop the rope for everyone else. Swim across the water and hit the switch to drop the bridge. Jump over the gap to get to the door and find a way to get everyone else safely across.

Any argument that ends with someone else being able to do it and do it better just fuels my retort of "that's a problem with your play style, not with the fighter class."

OK then. Lets simplify this:

Im going too ask you too list the Fighters Merits In game (As in not "Its simpler too run").

What makes the fighter worth playing over any other class?

It doesn't do that much damage

It doesn't have many choices as what it can do in combat.

Its not the best protected.

It doesn't have many skills

Its main class features are much weaker then every other classes class features.

So what is its merit? Why does it not need a boost (Boosting one class is easier then de-buffing 10 others).


Well I should do the good thing and Apologize too Master Marshmellow for being a prick.

I just mean that, I just find myself very frusturated with you Marshmellow.

Thing is, its one thing too be a simple class, its another too be one thats a one Trick pony that doesn't do any of its tricks well.

Sorry again for being a prick.


Ignore Master Marshmellow. We will never get anywhere if we focus on him


Guys I have a suggestion too make:

Ignore Master Marshmellow. We will never get anywhere if we focus on him


1 person marked this as a favorite.
master_marshmallow wrote:


Rogue rolls perception, "hey there's something up there! I can't get to it."
Fighter says "I got this." Rolls climb, gets it.

You want to be the guy that does the spotting and the finding? You're just being whiny. That's all this thread really is.

Now lets get back too reality:

Rouge: "Oh hey a magic item, Il go climb to it too because I have 8+ Skill points too spare!, also fighter you can go polish my boots whilst I do so"

Fighter: "No I can't. Not enough Skill points"

Are you REALY this thick? Are you REALY not trolling? Are you SERIOUS?


master_marshmallow wrote:


I guess being able to make it to the top of the cliff by climbing up there to get the secret item that no one else can get to

How did you know that there was any magic item there at all? How would you notice it unless you had a good perception?

;D


Marthkus wrote:


*shudders

You just made me imagine the purgatory that is first-level spells.

Because screw all of those fun and interesting ideas at the higher levels!

My lvl 20 wizard, the greatest the earth has ever known should play like Gandalf in LoTR movies. F That. If pathfinder was suddenly that or at this point a clone of 4th ed (nerf casters into being weird fighters), I would still be playing 3.5

I have no idea if your trolling or not. Your just so confusing. Considering Gandalf barely throws any spells around anyway.

Maybe you meant that you wanted more exploding pinecone spells?


Well there is SIMPLY NO OTHER OPTION.

Let me give you an example:

Lets say that all casters could only use 1st level spells, however the damage cap for stuff that maxes out at 5 would instead max out at level 20, and saves scaled at =1/2 level.

They would still be incredibly vertisile, and fun too use.

But casters don't just get too use 1st level spells.

Casters don't need too suck.


master_marshmallow wrote:


The problems people have with fighters are more problems with Pathfinder as a whole imo.

Well no, and there is a boatload of evidence for that but yes:

More then anything, the Multi-Class Archetype thread, and multiple class archetypes have shown me just how unbalanced Pathfinder is.

Yet its fixable. The level of Transparency shown, means its much easier too identify the issues and flaws with the system.

Obvious issue is Spellcasting.


Well....I was about too pay full support for kickstarter until I realized that I only counted 14 GREAT's in your post. I needed 15.

Now I will be your mortal enemy, trolling your game, discouraging others from supporting it, and slandering and trying to hack your systems and destroy it!


Im always in for supporting those not of my gender, but quality comes first.

Can you look me in the eye and tell me that this adventure path will be GREAT?

=D


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Lets put it this way:

If a class can get 90% of the advantages of the fighter, through 10% of its class advantages something is wrong.

Oracle with Metal Mystery folks. Oracle With Metal mystery.


WOW. The amount of opinions here are as wide as the moon.

I like about a quarter, hate about a quarter and am meh with about a half of them.


Actually I would suggest, that if a caster has full spell progression, then they only have 1 good save. Thats my tip I guess.


I would say It would. It gets EVERYTHING a fighter gets -4 worth of Training in weapons and armor or weapon mastery.

Even a +1 is WAY too small. +3 minimum.


Hmmm. I think I found one thats WAY too good:

Astral Captain. Its incredibly optimized, even with diminished spell-casting. Mainly because the summoner is already pretty amazing, and this is the uber version.

I suggest replacing the armor training the Astral Captain gets with an enchantment bonus. Its a subtle change, but fundamentally worse.

Its too much because it mixes too much together to create the ultimate summoner.

Im not sure what to change about it, or how too fix its issues.


Some, but after review they aren't THAT bad.....I think I have to take my words back.

You seem to be putting allot of effort into this. Maybe Il try too throw my hat into the ring once.


Anyway apon re-reading most of them they are quite cool.

I do wish that you could clarify about "Bonus Class ability" feats. Like Bonus Hex, Discovery, exetera.

Could you clarify if those work or not?


So....Are they MEANT too be MUCH MUCH better then their separate classes or did it just happen that way?

A tier 1 class is tier 1 no matter if it looses some, or gains some extra mass.

But the other classes........ Their very fluffy, and probably fun too play but seem to be a quite a bunch more powerful then their parent classes (Tier 1s not withstanding)


The Talented fighter is also pretty cool. And quite flexible.

Also what I like to do is give the fighter only simple armor proficiency and then give them 4 bonus feats.


Actually thinking about it a Farmer with 25 Acres is making more then 100,000 GP a year.

Watch out. They likely have a army of Golems at the ready.


OK, so when rolling for Income generated by buildings do I gain that type of resource or do I still have too pay for it?

Lets say I made 1 Magic at a magical Library. Do I still have too pay 50 GP to get it? Cause thats very annoying.

Second Question:

Can I shlump the costs together?

Lets say I made 20 Magic Resource. But I only need one. But I don't have much money in my pocket at the moment.

If I did, I would be saving about 1,000 GP on the purchase of 20 Magic.

But getting 1000 GP would take 47 Days through pure GP making.

But what if instead of gaining that 50% off bonus for two Magic Points I instead bought 1 for a 100% discount? Could that be possible?


In fact thinking about it, low taxes would be about 10%. So the average farmer (with 25 acres who earns 6,000 a year) gives us 600 GP per year or 50 per month.

So you need about 80 decent farmers for a Build point/ per month.


This also proves a comforting truth that most likely farmers a nit quite poor as not too afford some magic items. The common farmer may have a wand or two.


But we are not talking the average blacksmith. We are talking the average farmer which is a level 2 Commoner who has an about +9 modifier (Lets be kind and add a +1 Trait mod for the sake of rounding. I tend to give NPCs a single trait anyway).

Thats a 2 GP every day he works. Assuming hes lazy and works only 5 days a week.

Thats 10 GP a week. 40 a month. 480 a year. - 100 GP a year for 3 poor meals a day, thats 380 GP to spend on leftovers.

Buying a single farmland would require 15 goods and labor. Thats about 300 GP.

It can even cost less as the book says:

"At the GM's discretion, you might discover a plot of available land that automatically counts as a Farmland at no cost."

So hey.

Now we earn a extra 1 GP per day. Thats 15 a week. 60 a Month. 720 a year. - the 100 fee thats 620 (Add the extra 80 and thats 700). OK then now we can buy TWO extra farmland.

Thats 5 GP a Day. 25 a Week. 100 a month. 1,200 a year.

See how the ball rolls?

Edit: for the sake of fun lets continue this.

From that we now have 1,300 Total GP. Then we can spend on 4 extra farmland (We now have 7).

9 GP a day, 45 a week, 180 a week. 2160 a year. Holy crap. This was only after about 4 years. After about 20 we can be making SO MUCH. And this was in YEARLY chunks. If we split it too max efficiency we can result in enough to become magical empire barons!


Actually anybody who paid attention would notice that a average farmer makes around 450 GP a year. Thats a very decent number. With some skill rolls and some work and elbow-grease they could quite easily afford a VERY GOOD QUALITY home in about 2 years work.


Often times people can get annoyed at the rules assumptions that all players are all hardcore optimizers and that they will all automatically reach for the tomes, the belts and bands, the cloaks of resistance and other stuff.

Thus monsters all have LUDACRIST stats (Yeah Im SURE that big ol lumbering jerk has Dex 38).

The easy solution is an inbuilt Vow of Poverty (Minus the Poverty). But it doesn't work for those that DON'T want the cristmas tree at all and wan't every magic item too be special.

So I give you:

VOW OF NON-OPTIMIZATION

Spoiler:

Enough with the G*~$%* DarkVision: Unless core to the monster design (Like a Owl or a Shadow Creature of Darkness) either reduce the range of the Darkvision, or turn it into low light vision or REMOVE IT ENTIRELY.
AC Penalty: A 1 CR creature receives a -2 penalty to its Armor Class (Natural, deflection or some other form of your choice that is not lost on touch AC). The penalty increases to -5 at 3rd CR, and thereafter increases by -1 for each 3 CR it has.
Crappy Strike: At 4 CR creature, gains a -1 penalty too BAB (Except don’t reduce the attack output) and -1 penalty too natural attack damage rolls. This penalty rises to -2 at 10th CR, to -3 at 14th CR, to -4 at 17th CR, and to -5 at 20th CR. Treat the damage penalty as a natural penalty.
Attraction : A 6th-CR creature receives a -1 deflection penalty to its Armor Class. This penalty increases to -2 at 12th CR, and to -3 at 18th CR.
Weakness : At 7th CR, every creature gains a -1 penalty on all saving throws. This penalty increases to -2 at 13th CR, and to -3 at 17th CR.
Ability Score Penalty : At 5th CR, the creature gains a -2 penalty to one ability score. At 9th CR, it turns too a -4 penalty to that score, and a -2 penalty to another ability score. At 13th CR, the penalty grows too an -6 penalty in one score, a -4 penalty in another score, and a -2 penalty to a third ability score. At 15th CR, it becomes a -8 penalty too one score, a -6 penalty too another, a -4 penalty too the third and a -2 penalty to a fourth ability score. At 19th CR this becomes a -10 penalty too one score -8 penalty too the second, a -6 penalty too the third, a -4 penalty too the fourth and a -2 penalty to a fifth ability score.
Natural Weakness : At 8th CR, the creature gains a -1 natural armor penalty. It increases an extra -1 at 16th CR. If the Creature had no natural armor instead stack the penalty with its armor penalty (Or some other form of armor of your choice).
Damage Reduction Reduction: The creature gains a -5 penalty to magic damage reduction (If it has any) at 10th CR. At 15th CR, this widens too alignment based damage reduction, and at 19th CR becomes a -10 penalty.
Energy Vulnerability : At 10th CR, the creature gains a -5 penalty too any form of energy resistance (If it has any). At 20th CR, this penalty increases to -15. Do not count this penalty if this creature is obviously elemental in its nature (Such as a Mephit)
Degeneration : The creature’s regeneration decreases by 5 .Unless the regeneration is CORE to the monster design like the Werewolf. Then only decrease it by 2 by every 5 the regeneration value is EG -2 at 5 Regeneration, -4 at 10 Regeneration -6 at 15 Regeneration)
True Seeing : The creature looses any form of continuous true seeing ability, as the spell unless its core to the creature design (Like the Angel of Truth or whatever).

True Re-Build: Adjust the Feats as well, and adjust skills as well

Example Balor Demon

Spoiler:

BALOR CR 20
XP 307,200
CE Large outsider (chaotic, demon, evil, extraplanar)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 10 ft., low-light vision, Perception +27
Aura flaming body, unholy aura (DC 23)
DEFENSE
AC 20, touch 14, flat-footed 16 (+1 deflection, +3 Dex, +6 natural, –1 size, +1 Dodge)
hp 135 (20d10+8)
Fort +21, Ref +10, Will +19
DR 5/cold iron and good; Immune electricity, fire, poison; SR 31
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft., fly 90 ft. (good)
Melee +1 vorpal unholy longsword +26/+21/+16/+11 (2d6+13), +1 vorpal flamingwhip +25/+20/ (1d4+7 plus 1d6 fire and entangle) or 2 slams +26 (1d10+7)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft. (20 ft. with whip)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 20th)
Constant—true seeing, unholy aura (DC 23)
At will—dominate monster (DC 24), greater dispel magic, greater teleport(self plus 50 lbs. of objects only), power word stun, telekinesis (DC 20)
3/day—quickened telekinesis (DC 20)
1/day—blasphemy (DC 22), fire storm (DC 23), implosion (DC 24), summon(level 9, any 1 CR 19 or lower demon 100%)
STATISTICS
Str 35, Dex 17, Con 26, Int 20, Wis 18, Cha 25
Base Atk +15; CMB +28; CMD 45
Feats Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (telekinesis), Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (longsword)
Skills Bluff +27, Fly +12, Intimidate +27,Knowledge +25(history) , Knowledge (nobility) +20, Knowledge (planes) +25,Knowledge (religion) +25, Perception +27, Sense Motive +25, Use Magic Device 25; Profession (Torturer) 24, Profession (Soldier) 24, Profession (Commander) 24
Racial Modifiers +8 Perception,
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Draconic; telepathy 100 ft.
SQ death throes, vorpal strike, whip mastery
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Death Throes (Su)
When killed, a balor explodes in a blinding flash of fire that deals 100 points of damage (half fire, half unholy damage) to anything within 100 feet (Reflex DC 28 halves). The save DC is Constitution-based.
Entangle (Ex)
If a balor strikes a Medium or smaller foe with its whip, the balor can immediately attempt a grapple check without provoking an attack of opportunity. If the balor wins the check, it draws the foe into an adjacent square. The foe gains the grappled condition, but the balor does not.
Flaming Body (Su)
A balor's body is covered in dancing flames. Anyone striking a balor with a natural weapon or unarmed strike takes 1d6 points of fire damage. A creature that grapples a balor or is grappled by one takes 6d6 points of fire damage each round the grapple persists.
Vorpal Strike (Su)
Any slashing weapon a balor wields (including its standard longsword and whip) gains the vorpal weapon quality. Weapons retain this quality for one hour after the balor releases the weapon, but after this the weapon reverts to its standard magical qualities, if any.
Whip Mastery (Ex)
A balor treats a whip as a light weapon for the purposes of two-weapon fighting, and can inflict lethal damage on a foe regardless of the foe's armor.

Seems to work like a charm. Any obvious flaws you see?


The simple solution is-inbuilt a "Vow of Poverty" (Without the Poverty of Course) into every character. But the Solution I like personally is that unless the enemy is built like a PC, sow in a NEGA vow of poverty into THEM.


Is there anywhere where I can find the information for how the vehicle stats are calculated?

Cause Im currently re-designing the Spelljammer ship rules. And I need help to understand whats the design process behind that so that I can create my own.

Spelljammer ships are too cool and varied to be shoved under like 3 types of ships.


I just want to ask, rounded down too tons, how much would each ship from the Naval combat rules weigh in tons? if possible, I would like the weight of the sails and rigging and such separate from the weight of the ship itself.

This is for SpellJamming reasons.

Just the average ship sizes. if you can calculate the weight (In tons) for some of the more specific ships thats even better.


Fromper wrote:

I think there's a rule that such a character combination must be named Master Blaster.

Yeah. There was this one time when my characters where on a time limit, and they needed to get to the castle of Ages, but they couldn't get Beyond Thunderdome.

Im so sorry. Im so sorry.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Yup. They are called Warpath.


OK. That makes sense now.


Thanks guys. This is what I needed.

My math comes from a single square being 750 FT X 750 FT

The amount of square feet inside of that is divided by 3 to get the meters squared.

Then *4 for the amount of Squares occupied.


ll just say that a castle requires allot of space to put together (Room to move around the materials), thus requires allot of space around it before that space can be filled in with other stuff.


Yeah I KNOW, but why does a castle require 4 districts worth of stuff? Why can't it be 1?


This kinda got me:

At first I realized that a square occupied in the kingdom building rules doesn't represent that single building alone. It represents a general jumble of buildings, but also includes that specific building. UNTIL, I realized that some buildings take up multiple lots. Now that means they either wastefully are located the middle (Thus taking up both squares for some reason), or take up enough space that BOTH need to be used.

This is kinda ludacrist as a single lot is 187500 square meters. That would mean that the castles would be about 5 times bigger then the biggest castle ever made in the history of the world.

Can somebody explain this to me? I assume that each castle isn't big enough too dwarf every building ever built, ever (It would rival those built by the Azlanti!).

So what is the extra space used for? And why does the castle have to be built in the center of those four lots and not in the center of a single lot?

I know this is probably because of balance reasons, but can somebody explain a fluff reason for why this is done?


Good summary of why I don't like her here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6gLmcS3-NI
Also shes just missed her major submission dates (And Im not sure where those extra 140,000 went.).

Shes a feminist that doesn't think things through, and just likes to rage at a general....target....thing, and demand censorship.


ShadowcatX wrote:
Condescending strawman logic

Please don't do this.

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