Good feedback, guys. While I am not planning a VTT option standalone, I am taking ALL of this feedback, as well as from some posts from the cartographersguild.com about what the GMs and gamer want; unique visual resources for existing VTT products. This is possible, very possible. If a system works, don't break it, right?
So, officially (after I cleared any legal boundaries), I WILL be designing sets of tile textures, objects, and effects for download. I'm looking into eCommerce options and can create the first product hopefully before PaizoCon...and it will be available on CD there, too...with a yet-to-be-determined bonus.
Now comes the great part! You guys get to come up with the content for the first pack. I want to have the packs contain 30 tiles/objects/effects for around $10. Is that fair? These would not be limited to 10 different grass, stone, and dirt textures. C'mon, even I can get this stuff from online, but the focus will be on more realistic looking locales; grungy dungeons, broken marble, mossy and cracked earth. Also, stains, runed stones, treasure objects, and plenty of skulls and bones. All of the legal-schmegal will apply and will be included with the download.
So, let's get cracking. Please email me here to submit ideas <cmacourek@aol.com> I will making a short list by the end of the week and get cracking on making the content. I hope the store will be up sooner than later as well. Fun times ahead.
Really, you said it all right there. I can get a lot of stuff online. If I was you, and I had Paizo's blessing, I would focus on providing those things that were uniquely Paizo: runelords-specific rune decorations, tiles players can use to replicate some of the distinctive maps from the APs, modules, etc. That's something we can't get online.
I'm sure there's some proprietary software that covers all these bases. However, I'm cheap, and nerdy, so my preferred solution is to use Maptool for everything.
If you check out the "User Created" forum on the RPTools messageboard, you'll see that a guy name iMarkus has put together a pretty impressive Pathfinder/3.5 framework. I like to build things myself though, so I'm not sure about the exact status of that project.
It is possible to create a character builder in maptool if you're prepared to learn the eccentric scripting language that has evolved around it. As a coder the syntax somewhat irritates me since it all has to go through a chat window (lots of brackets) but it is also insanely flexible for what it is. Because the program is RP system agnostic, it can take a lot of effort to make it fully automate your game, unless someone has already done some of the work for you.
When I build a module for my Runelords/Maptool campaign, I use the "Notes" panel of the token menu a lot. Anything written in that panel will display text when a Player clicks on it, so it is perfect for descriptions of rooms and such. You can also use a transparent PNG for appending these notes to less interactive maps (like the ones from Runelords).
There are only a few things left that you cannot do with Maptool Macros, and I am convinced these will be possible soon. HTML character sheet generated from token variables? Sure! Character Generation? That's sort of easy, depending on how deep you want to go (3.5 is inherently quirky). Area description text built in? Try doing what I do and pinning descriptions on everything — then don't allow a passive search roll to find traps. Your players will spend a few minutes reading all the text before they dare set foot in a room! Macros can track hit points quite easily, and with a little bit of effort can manage and entire attack roll with whatever modifiers and states you need.
So basically the answer is: nearly anything is possible in Maptool. There are some decent existing 3.5 and Pathfinder frameworks that some folks collaborate on, you can check those out and see if it is to your liking. But if you want all the features done your way, you can achieve that by learning the macro script and coding it up the way you like it.
My school quarter is over in 2 days, when I plan on sitting down and making a complete Pathfinder framework for maptool myself. You can be I'll post the results here!
I don't think Paizo should license a specific VTT.
I won't ever pay for a VTT service as long as I feel the free version is better (and I think it is). I think art collections are the way to go, since they support all VTTs equally, and carry essentially no risk for a content provider (Paizo). In a lot of cases, Paizo is actually already doing what we've asked! It's just a matter of presenting the material in a way that saves us time.
Make it easy for us to play modules beautifully with our software of choice. The art will sell, and it will advertise the modules, which will sell in PDF to people who are playing remotely anyway. There is no need to throw in with one VTT over any other, because they all include the ability to import images.
I was asked to create the map tile pack by the RPTools team - so yes, I am happy assembling this in maptool! The subject got so popular that the threads on tilepack creation got their own forum.
The first one (dungeon basics) is free and will be part of the core download of maptool when it goes stable. Future packs will be cheap and I plan to sell them through RPGNow and other online stores. They will all be done in the same modular hand drawn style.
Tying in with the AP is a good idea. Obviously if you also had objects for the individual treasures then you'd be able to give your players the token - with all the details of the magic item contained in the player and GM notes! That would rule... Hmmm, will certainly have to think a little more about that.
This just goes to prove something I've long believed: maptool is amazing. I can look it over for months and months and still find new features that are insanely useful.
Thanks for making this and bringing it to my attention. I'd love to see some more crossover love between Paizo and RPTools.
EDIT: This is a very impressive creation! Bravo! Right into my resource directory.
This looks really good! I'm excited about this prospect. How did you go about assembling this in maptool? Did you use the painting tools and snap-to-grid? Or did you make stamp objects of the various tile types?
One potential hurdle is that I think the maptool license might prohibit you from selling .cmpgn files. But that's fine, since art collections are generalizable to other VTTs and to static mapmakers.
I am very glad to see things moving in this direction! Now, the most useful thing of all would be to have them run alongside an AP — with object tokens for the relevant treasure, traps etc. That plus ready-to-go character tokens would make it an ideal product, just point maptool and your favorite framework at the directory and play.
It seems to me that with a little planning, the tabletop map and object products could pull double-duty in PDF form for VTT players.
Also, I posted my rather long response and missed Toyrobot's post. I wanted to ask a couple of questions of those interested in tiles and assets. Would you prefer a set of pregen rooms that slot together or something more freeform? The maptool set has floor textures, separate walls and corners and separate items. This lets you build any dungeon you like (more or less) but it takes a little longer than a set with prebuilt rooms. Prebuilt rooms limit your options to those rooms that you have, but they are much quicker to lay down. Thoughts?
Textures are preferable for maptool because they have a low resource cost. If you only use a few textures to paint with, you can create some astonishingly large maps (think Kilometers).
However, just textures may limit the utility of an art pack for non-maptool users. Having both would be quite nice.
A tile system is a decent compromise, since a stamp is just a resource reference in Maptool. The more different tiles you use, the less efficient your map will be.
I can find textures with relative ease, I think the added value of an art pack is to provide things I can't do easily: colorful, varied maps. Structural maps of distinct locations in the world would be the best value, I think.
Honestly, the more I think about this, and believe me I am thinking about it WAY too much, I think Paizo needs to stay out of it. Let Paizo do what Paizo does best.
Well, it's all here for posterity anyway.
For me, the fun in this conversation is thinking about the direction VTTs are moving. No company I can see has made VTT-friendly adventures yet. By VTT friendly, I don't mean game that is in any sponsoring or integrated with a VTT, just a traditional module or AP product that is distributed in a way that makes VTT use easy.
Some companies are actively going in the opposite direction, trying to compete with online tools, or getting mired in making their own!
There are some pretty clear signs for the road ahead.
I might have a test CD of Map-building tools (PSDs with tiles, accents, "things") for PaizoCon to test the market to see if this is material that is usable. There are important steps that need to happen before breaking this out, but this looks optimistic.
I think there's more of a market for this than you realize. As I said before, you'll have Dundjinni/Photoshop map builders, straight up VTT users, and people who like to print maps.
I suggest you organize the product into a core set, with a lot of "must haves" like windows and common furniture, and then branch out into "theme" sets. For example, all of the spooky Drow stuff should be together.
In that format, I would say a fair price would be from 5 to 10 dollars per theme, depending on the size of the collection.
Really, metadata is the thing that an object collection needs. I need to be able to search for a spooky spider altar by searching for any of those three terms. So try to get a really robust tagging system if that is possible.
I keep d20srd.org up and ready... so for me VTT is a blessing! I need to play some more but like what I see so far.
I've set maptool up so that spells and effects that appear in chat link to directly to the SRD. Lookup time is zero. I look forward to changing it over to the Pathfinder "SRD" when it is robust enough.
That's another way Paizo can keep the VTT edge they had dropped in their lap by WotC: don't screw up the SRD. Do the same thing d20srd.org does, as closely as you can copy it. It is a damn near perfect reference site.
The suggestion of getting a projector, getting copies of every VTT, and then having someone learn how to use them all and track the information is a perfect example of something that'd be neat but also something that we just can't do with our resources at this time, of course.
I plan on moving to the Seattle area in the near future. I own a projector ;)
No seriously, it is just good that you are listening. Stop listening, and you can expect to fall behind.
of course, as long as the other companies fall behind FASTER, you're still leading right?
Keep PDFs cheap and useful, that should help with the VTT crowd for some time.
VTT gaming has intrigued me for a long time, and I suspect that, far more soon than most gamers expect, it'll replace the actual physical tabletop as the preferred method of gaming—especially in cases where a beloved gaming group would otherwise break up because gamers are moving away and actually physically traveling to a game location becomes impossible.
That said... Paizo is not poised on that forefront of cutting edge technology. We are still primarily a print company for now, and while I hope that we'll make the transition to the eventuality of VTTs gracefully, that time isn't here yet. Which is good news for us, since we don't have the resources to officially roll out full VTT support at this time. I DO expect this to change at some point in the future... I just hope it happens at a time and in a way that doesn't crush us with a flood of new responsibilities and work at our end.
For what it's worth, I hope you recognize that Paizo's role is as "content provider". Don't make the mistake of dabbling in software, just do your best to enable VTT users to access your products.
The plan I have discussed above is not that outlandish. I understand it's a departure from what you do now, but really it is just a matter of providing a library of images that can be used with your product. It's the same model you're adopting with Paper Minis and terrain, just a different medium.
In other words you'll be fine.
Like it or not, Paizo is on the forefront of VTT advances as far as content providers are involved. The art is worth using and available in PDF. For now, that's all you need to corner this market. Keeping it will require innovation, and object manipulation is the obvious next step.
EDIT:
Get a projector in the Paizo office. Get a copy of every successful VTT you can find, and get an intern to learn how to use them all. That way, you'll have someone on staff who can tell you what the future of RPGs is. Worth the investment.
As for the use of these pictures, yes they would be useful to folks with photoshop, dundjinni, etc. But the most important point is that imagine manipulation software is obsolete for VTT users! I can load your structural map and your objects into maptool and have the players interact with their placement! So in answer to your question, yes, yes a thousand times yes! It is only a matter of time before this becomes the standard for all VTTs.
My dream map bundle would have all of the structures from an AP chapter, and a lot of furniture, objects, etc that I could place as needed. It should also have a flattened "default" for people who just want traditional maps. Add in a "token" image for each relevant NPC and you have a premium map product that can be used as-is with the FREE virtual tabletop maptool.
This would save me the time of searching for each object, of drafting structural maps on my own... it would also result in a consistent visual experience since all objects would have the same illustrator. Having everything I need to run a module in a VTT with full functionality (i.e. separate object placeables) would be so worth it.
$15.99 if you have structural maps, objects, and NPC tokens organized. That's for a full AP chapter or module.
People could print them, load them into VTTs, or make static maps in dundjinni or photoshop.
I am aware of Paizo's reservations, I tend to follow the "Better Map" threads carefully. I'm just informing them of my ideal product, something I think is worth knowing in case it becomes viable.
For me, it isn't about whether the market exists now, but that it will grow as the technology becomes more refined and easy to use. Maptool is free. Anyone with the least curiosity about VTT play can go download it and noodle around.
Maptool already lets me manipulate furniture, objects, and Light Sources on a map, which is great when the PCs blow out a candle or barricade a door. But digging up objects for every piece of furniture and reworking the structural map to use these features is highly time consuming. If the map were VTT-friendly scale and at least had a separate layer for objects, that is added value for VTT users.
In the future, people are going to want a product that saves them time by enabling them to play an adventure path with a VTT quickly and easily. This can not only be done, but it is largely a matter of presentation and reorganization of existing product. The only major change would maps with slightly more detail.
Two final points:
Things that benefit advanced VTT use also benefit people who print maps.
The added value discussed above would redress the issue of AP Mapset value. Currently, the AP mapsets offer me nothing as a VTT user, and so they shall go forever unpurchased.
As the VTT playerbase grows, the game company that finds the best way to support all the applications that can be used with its products will benefit. PDFs of the current AP maps are already passable, but Paizo could still make life easier for us VTT players by supporting the next developments in VTT: object manipulation and interactive maps.
If I could pay for premium maps that are VTT or print-worthy, I would draw the line at about $10 per AP chapter (12 if fully organized like I outline here).
The resolution need only be decent: the maptool standard is 50 pixels per square inch.
Details like objects, furniture, and doors should be on separate layers, because the FREE VTT software allows GMs to manipulate these things. I think this is the direction the software is moving in general.
If there was a distinctive look to a Pathfinder VTT character token image (say a cool border), this would only help spread the word that Pathfinder was supporting VTTs in a big way.
Consider bundling the maps with easily repackaged artwork. For example, a simple organized directory of portraits, illustrations, objects and maps from a given AP chapter is added value that shouldn't have much overhead at all.
My dream product as a VTT junky is to get a structural map, and separate objects, character/creature tokens in an organized directory. As the software developed and makes things like GM object manipulation and animated doors the norm (and it will, I'm already doing this) the demand for well organized VTT fodder will increase. The utility of this would also apply to people who print maps, since they could also print the furniture and objects for makeshift minis.
This is an ambitious vision, but for an artist accustomed to working in layers, it is really not much more complex than drawing a standard AP map.
EDIT: for those people who think that having the objects and furniture and such separate sounds like a pain, I would be pleased to see the inclusion of an image in the bundle that has all of objects placed. Yeah, that's my dream map download.
I'm able to size the maps (1 square = 10 feet) easily enough. They're a but low-resolution, but they're good enough I think. Is it that you want the gridlines to show or something?
The only hint is the statue of Sarenrae pointing at the monastery. My assumption is that it was supposed to guard Kelmarane against very forces now occupying it. Presumably the undead in the basement are the animated remains of the forces who failed.
CMD is likely CMB + static number (like it was CMB + 15 in Beta). Of course, the big question is WHAT is that number (10 ? 12 ? 15 ? 1/3 of current Erik Mona's age ?).
For those folks who loved the Maneuver AC variant during the beta playtest: we really don't have a great shot of seeing it in the final release, do we?
I have nothing to base this on, but are you so certain? And why?
Other than my own crushing pessimism, nothing really. :)
But we never really saw a response from the powers that be on the idea of integrating Touch AC with Maneuver DCs, nor on integrating Maneuvers with regular attack bonuses.
If it does get included, I will be very happy. That rule alone made the playtest for me, and I've been using it ever since.
It's too late to lobby for inclusion, so I figured I would lament its loss and be pleasantly surprised if I am wrong. win/win!
For those folks who loved the Maneuver AC variant during the beta playtest: we really don't have a great shot of seeing it in the final release, do we?
I hereby dedicate this thread to lamenting that awesome, awesome variant rule.
I think they're talking about Domains, Arcane Schools and Bloodlines, but this is pure conjecture. It was the biggest departure from 3.5, and did the most damage to existing statblocks.
Maybe they found some golden compromise that let them keep the goodness of the beta powers without forcing GMs to recompile 3.5 material. Here's hoping.
Thanks for taking the time to respond at length Vic.
I was mainly griping about not being able to extract textless maps, but it turns out you can select and copy images in Adobe Reader 8, so that's a non-issue for me now.
Annotating would be nice, but it isn't a deal-breaker as long as I get my maps. Here's hoping the technology develops to the point where it's not a tradeoff with security.
not sure in preview, but you can do this in adobe reader 8 (they took out he ability in 9 for some reason) I believe the select tool will select the map without the locations.
For Preview annotations, have you tried printing a copy to PDF? (PDF button in lower left corner of print window in 10.5).
Excellent idea, and yes this works — but it doesn't print the bookmarks, and doesn't really help with the layers issue. Without bookmarks, annotation isn't worth it.
I know Paizo loves us PDF users. I only ask that I get the most functionality out of the premium I've paid.
If this is something that can be made easier, I'd like Paizo to look into it. It decreases the value of my PDFs if I can't mark them up or extract the maps easily.
At present it is much easier to remove/redact a watermark than it is to alter the PDF for legitimate purposes. That's disappointing, it always sucks to be a paying customer who loses functionality for security purposes.
When you look at the PDF market, I'm sure you're seeing a disproportionate number of Virtual Tabletop Users. It might be worthwhile to implement a way we can retrieve layers securely and easily, perhaps by appending the raw maps watermarked to the end of the file?
Even so, being able to annotate my files in my viewer of choice (Preview) is functionality I feel I have paid for.
Or perhaps it's time for the group to sit down and talk about out of character knowledge. It sounds like meta-gaming with out of character knowledge is something they enjoy, so why not see if you can't get them in on it and then concentrate on surprising the characters rather than the players? Perhaps they'd enjoy a bit more of an author/director stance on controlling their characters rather than being in actor stance.
Good suggestions all, frozenwastes, and good players are usually able to keep the metagaming in check. But what I am most grateful for in The Great Beyond is that ability to engender actual confusion and curiosity in the players - not as a cudgel to beat them with, but rather to enhance the enjoyment of exploring a new and untamed setting. That's something you can only get with actual ignorance, not simply fair role play.
I've been waiting for years for the opportunity to re-live my first planar experiences, but the tone of the material I'd seen thus far was not quite what I was looking for. The Great Beyond seems like a good fit to me.
I am a little bummed about the maps though. It seems like Lazz was trying to do something different, but in this instance I would have preferred he stick to tradition. They're more like illustrations of each plane than "maps" comparable to MotP3e or the Planescape boxed sets. Space was obviously a consideration here, but I wish the maps had been a little bigger and more detailed.
I'd like to mark up my Paizo pdfs using Preview on the Mac, but I get a warning message that my pdf is encrypted and I do not have the ownership needed to do this.
Additionally, it would be useful if I could extract individual images, such as the map layer without the location keys. Any advice on how I might be able to do these things?
Start with the inside cover. The set up doesnt makes sense to me with all the rings. I dont like how the outer and inner spheres are set up.
Strangely that's my favorite part. I've recently taken some courses that covered ancient cosmology and this closely resembles the Platonic model of concentric spheres. There's a rich history there. I guess different people want different things, I can totally relate to being a Great Wheel purist.
Then again, I'm not sure I want a book of re-packaged Planescape, when my old planescape stuff is still on the shelf, and nobody could top those books.
I'm kind of wondering the same thing, why did Pathfinder need a unique cosmology? Why not just define some unique planer destinations and leave the whole definition of the cosmology blank. We are supposed to be compatible with 3.5 right, so let people get the details from there, and just make some really cool and engaging planer destinations, and set them on the plans with the names like "heaven, hell, nirvana, abyss" etc which are non-trademark/copyright synonyms for the wotc planes?
I think that it works. People familiar with the old can still use it. As a hardcore Planescape fan myself, I often regret how everyone is already familiar with the weird quirks of the planes; how quickly the wild and wonderful infinite became sort of "normal." They know all the factions and planar traits, it is difficult to replicate the naivete of a prime setting foot in the planes for the first time, in the spirit of Planescape.
A new cosmology helps me restore the sense of mystery for my experienced Planescape players. In this new configuration, the things they take for granted are gone — arriving in Axis for the first time will be every bit as confusing as arriving in Sigil was all those years ago. The Great Beyond should fulfill the role that the original Manual of the Planes had - new worlds.
As for compatibility, don't confuse the Pathfinder setting with the Pathfinder RPG. I don't think that the actual rules will contain reference to the individual planes beyond how they interact with spells, which doesn't seem to be any different in either cosmology. I don't see any compatibility issues in this book.
It would be nice to have the Prestige Classes become redundant BECAUSE the base classes are so flexible. It seems with taking multiple classes the old idea that this class is a straight spell thrower this one is a tank is hopefully becoming a thing of the past. If you want background to make the character into a more interesting game piece you shouldn't need a Prestige Class to do it.
Couldn't agree more. Prestige Classes should give quirky, specific abilities. The core classes should be able to cover most basic concepts for each class. People should be able to make the character they want ot play at first level.
I think the best pugwampis out there are Reaper's kobolds, which are small enough to be tiny and have the traditional kobold's dog faces.
Just snagged my Reaper Kobolds today.
Other than being a little heavily armed (which I plan to exploit against my larger than usual party) they are perfect for Pugwampis. Somebody should warn Reaper to beef up their stock!
Most of the books I've been getting (outside the APs) have been primarily fluff-over-crunch. What crunch there is in say "Gods and Magic" or the campaign setting doesn't seem to be incompatible with the Pathfinder RPG — especially if they are reverting to 3.5 domains somewhat. That was the least compatible rule in the beta, and if it's gone I doubt I'll need to do any conversion at all for my newest Pathfinder (3.5) books.
It sounds to me like the folks you're hanging around with are too accustomed to being edition-gouged by game companies. I can relate.
Part of me kinda knows that it was wrong but most of my mind is just happy some bastard got a lesson shown to him. If anyone needs to get a hold of me I only really use my facebook now a days. Same name on facebook I'm the only one of that name on the St. John's Newfoundland network. I even kinda understand I was doing thing that hurt Alex but when your in the moment you just don't see it that way.
I support your pursuit of justice insofar as those who committed a crime against your friend should be punished. Moreover, since they are clearly dangerous, they should be incarcerated.
I can't support an act of aggression against someone for holding a belief however onerous. Though your actions are highly understandable, you should be wary that you do not turn into the same kind of person who hurt you and yours, just for different reasons.
Why not just say that Outlands (with the Spire and the Gate-Towns) is a plane in the Great Beyond?
No reason.
I suppose we adhere to a rigid cosmology in planescape, because so much of our particular campaign is based on that cosmology. We were greatly inspired by the ramblings on mimir.net, so it would be difficult to reconcile the changes by just inserting new planes. However, I can see that being quite simple for other groups.
I like the notion that Pharasma's spire is the Spire from planescape, just that the multiverse has undergone some cataclysmic reformation. That way, if we should ever sink so low as to include time travel, everything in both cosmologies will have a context, but they will still be neatly separate from eachother.
My group are old time planescape fans. We wanted to keep the Great Wheel around very much, but we also want to use the Great Beyond because frankly, that *$#@ looks tight.
What we eventually decided was that they are the same cosmology separated by some multiverse shattering upheaval, a change in eon. Perhaps the Lady of Pain was deposed, finally allowing some forces to tip the balance of the outer planes and bringing Sigil, over time, to the present place of Axis?
It's this kind of unsubstantiated musing that made planescape great... man I can't wait for the great beyond to arrive in the mail this week.
Not that much is known about Arazni, except that she was Aroden's herald until the Whispering Tyrant killed her. Later, Geb (the wizard) stole her body, lichified her, and made her his Harlot Queen. She actually rules Geb (the country) now that Geb (the wizard) isn't around any more.
I don't think she qualifies as a deity any more. She was the Red Crusader, so the name would have fit.
Still, I agree with corpsy here: Iomedae could work, if you want a valorous goddess. If you want a lawful deity of strategy, you can go with Torag, though he's a dwarf.
Actually, I'm in love with the idea of a stalwart cleric waiting for her goddess to return. That said, Iomedae works as the actual source of her powers.
Is the whole "ruler of Geb" thing likely to crop up in a Legacy of Fire campaign? If so, more's the better!
One of my players is converting a Forgotten Realms cleric of Red Knight to my Pathfinder campaign. Looking through the setting, it seems as though the dead god Arazni is a good approximation, except, you know, dead and evil. Which is cool. We've decided that having her play a worshiper of Arazni who holds Iomedae as a surrogate matron deity is a pretty awesome backstory.
There's very little mentioned in the Campaign setting about Arazni... so tell me about her? And what do you make of using her as a stand-in for Red Knight?
(not just asking the Paizo staff, but also knowledgeable or creative board members, please!)
Yeah; the foreword is generally the last thing that gets written for a Pathfinder, so I can speak to what's actually in the contents of the volume as opposed to what I thought was gonna be in it. In the case of the foreword for this volume, though, I believe it might actually have been the first thing I wrote when the edit cycle for 22 began. The "Railroad" complaint is certainly a vocal-enough one (and, frankly, one that shouldn't be an issue anyway) that I wanted to talk about it ASAP.
For what it's worth, I think you gave some great advice. And I can't agree more that if you're looking for an open ended game, you probably shouldn't be looking for an Adventure Path.
I don't have time to manage an open-ended game at this point in my life. I tend to get way too caught up in world-building, with the actual game as an afterthought. Since I started on Pathfinder we've played a lot more actual games, and my group is grateful!
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