thelesuit's page

Well, two Qadirians, an Ossiran and two unlabeled folks.

My current character is Qadiran. I am only "labeled" when I post as him IC.

CJ

GM's who want to add 18th century firearms to their campaign might want to check out the Northern Crown rules. Their firearms rules are OGL and pretty reflective of quasi-history.

CJ

So far we look like a party of mostly Qadirans!! Which I find most auspicious.

CJ
--Parald Dassem

It's a series of articles published on Wired. Pretty interesting...

Part 1

Part 2

They even promoted a Paizo product in the second article!

Thanks for the links Veector!

CJ

Game MUST run smoothly consider the percussion cap rifle to be a paper cartridge minie ball breech loader, like the Enfield 1851. And the Flintlock is a Ferguson; which, while fragile, had a 1 round/6 seconds rate of fire.

Thanks for the Education Michael. I wasn't aware of the Ferguson musket. Though, if the setting musket is a Ferguson, it should probably have better damage.

I'm just not sure that the setting has the sort of technical and scientific infrastructure required to produce Enfields. You don't get to Enfield from crossbow without huge cultural and technological advances. Sure you could say it is fantasy/magic...but that is sort of a cop-out.

CJ

...Reloading a flintlock firearm (blunderbuss and musket) requires 1 round. Reloading a percussion cap firearm (pistol, revolver, rifle, scattergun) requires 1 move action per shot."

So you were essentially right, only the percussion cap firearms require 1 move action per shot reloaded as opposed to having all their shots reloaded in a single move action.

So...the reload rates featured are more than a bit absurd.

Historically, a muzzleloading flintlock musket could maybe be fired once every twenty seconds. This was in the hands of elite troops who had years of training and experience. Traditionally, muskets were not fired at a specific target rather than at a mass of troops/formation.

Rifled muskets were vastly more accurate -- but suffered in the reload time.

Percussion cap replacement is also terribly time-consuming. Speedloading a cap'n-ball revolver usually consisted of replacing the entire cylinder at one go with a pre-loaded one.

My suggestions would be a four-round reload rate for muzzleloading flintlock muskets. That is four full-round actions.

Replacing a cap'n-ball revolver cylinder should be a full-round action. Reloading a cylinder requires around 10 minutes of activity.

Should these be incorporated into the PFRPG rules -- these are my suggestions.

Damage dice are largely arbitrary in 3e+. I don't have a strong opinion on this. But damage dealt should be commensurate with the time it takes to reload.

CJ

For what it's worth, I'd be willing to help GM scenarios after I've played them. If we get a regular stable of GMs, maybe we could try to organize a Slot 0 system to minimize the number of adventures each person has to eat.

I think this is a capital idea. I too would be willing to run once I have played.

CJ

Oh (sorry to rear my ugly head again so soon after that post), I just thought of an addendum...<snipped>

I totally agree with Kayn's point of view.

I think half-orcs should be handled in much the same way half-elves are. Give them a +2 to any one stat, darkvision, affinity for orc-ish weapons, and call it good.

CJ

Been looking through the net for rules on putting together your own classes just wondering if pathfinder might be interested in offering something like this in a suppliment.

Basically the 11 core classes are pulled apart and each class ability is given a value. with each class adding up to X pts.

This sounds a lot like a PDF called Buy The Numbers...it takes apart all the SRD classes and gives some guidelines for recombining them based on "point buys".

CJ

Just to let folks know, it sounds like there is a push to have some Pathfinder Society scenarios run at Oroboros Games in Bellevue (WA).

I don't know of the details yet, but the owner, Steve, seems pretty motivated to have this happen. I have encouraged him to post the details here and on the PaizoCon Meetup Group.

Cheers,

CJ

I am not seeing any place to click for the GM this game????

If you are registered on the Mob Site, make sure you are Logged In. In the left-hand navigation panel, click Sign Up.

Next to the module you want to judge/play click the Sign Up button.

(Not sure if this next step always appears, click Add Me.)

You should then be in the Player Signup screen. In the center of the page there is a box for I'd like to judge this slot!!!. Click that box and then click Sign Up.

That should sign you up as the GM for the slot and module in question.

Let me know if this doesn't work.

CJ

It allowed me to register an account using my PFS# in place of an RPGA#. So, we should be okay on that front. Are RPGA numbers significantly longer, so we don't run the risk of somebody's PFS# conflicting with another registered member's RPGA#?

RPGA Numbers are six digits or more.

If you are able to register, you should now be able to sign-up for a slot/module by clicking Sign Up and then selecting the modules you want to play. Once you are signed-up for a module/slot you can also check the I want to GM this box if you want to GM it.

Let me know if folks run into problems.

CJ

Count me in for some September 13th action. I'll have my character all set up by this weekend. Now I just gotta figure out how this Seattle Mob Muster site works. :)

I have to agree with you there -- the Mob Muster Site is not exactly easy to use. The main problem is that it uses an RPGA number as the unique identifier (it is really just a database front end) for the player. I think we can spoof it by having folks use their Pathfinder Society number -- though if there is a digit count requirement this may not work. Can someone attempt this and see if it works -- if not let me know and I can get folks some RPGA numbers (I have some at home).

Zoomackulas Eichendar, thanks for volunteering to GM this.

It would be most excellent if we could get more volunteer GM's.

kessukoofah, abandon your east coast ways -- move to Seattle. We will game with you here, honest.

CJ

Looks like I found the right forum for this.

I haven't yet picked up the Campaign Guide (it is on the list for next month).

But from what I have heard, the description of the muzzle-loading flintlock gives it a one-round reload rate? And the reload rate for a percussion cap firearm is a "move action".

Can someone please verify this?

Thanks. I want to have the facts straight before I set up the hue and cry!

CJ

Also it describes the loading the flintlock weapons as a taking 1 round while the Percussion Cap only takes a move action, so by that description and the description of the weapons, only the flint locks seem to be muzzle loaders.

Are you serious? One round to load a flintlock? No offense, but who is smoking what? And loading a percussion cap as a move action?

The best most experienced (highest level) musketeers in the 18th Century could maybe get off a shot every 20 seconds (IIR).

We are talking one round to load, tamp/ram, and prime. One round. Six seconds. Each of these actions should probably take 1-round plus.

Now I understand that this is probably NOT the forum for this. But that seems inherently silly.

CJ

I need something urban or at least very proximal to Sandpoint to occupy the party while Hemlock is in Magnimar and they are "holding down the fort".

I was thinking of the following:

1. PCs need to break up a bar fight
2. Found dog
3. Barn, or perhaps dump fire
4. Visiting "somebody" would like some more security while he flirts and tries to score with the local women.

Does anyone have any ideas that they think would work supremely well in this situation?

Thanks in advance.

CJ

It looks like we have at least one willing GM for the 13th of September. Right now the plan is to run Silent Tide and The Hydra's Teeth Incident. Mustering one table each slot (2-slots total) should not be a problem.

If we muster more interest, we will need to locate more willing GM's.

CJ

I would totally be up for this. I'd rather play than DM (never DM'd a convention/organized game like this), but if necessary I could do so.

Well, ideally we would coerce those folks who played or GM'ed the modules at GenCon into running for us.

CJ

Too funny Tbug. I love how the ability of the Birdcrunchers to evade capture!! Go Goblins Go!

They need a "We didn't do it" song!!

CJ

So it would appear that the first four PFS scenarios are available for download and play.

Do we want to try to run Silent Tide and/or The Hydra's Fang Incident at the September Seattle Mob Game day on the 13th?

If so, who would be willing to GM or play?

CJ

In keeping with the flavor of the original post I'm not terribly keen on the movement away from things that tie clerics to their domain -- even if their domain isn't particularly combat oriented.

Not ALL clerics should be battle monsters.

Do we have to turn every cleric into a Knight Templar?

CJ

I was thinking the same thing, there's bound to be some who turn up without characters.

Yes, a pool of pre-gen's is a good idea. I like the idea of converting a batch of Iconics to PFS characters.

CJ

This is a very interesting program. I'll be interested to see the possible applications once more symbols have been added. I found a list of some latin phrases that would serve well for the scrolls. A few substitutions of words in the correct places and some simple fantasy uses come into play.

For example, I played around with a coat of arms for a knightly order of Sarenrae. For the scroll I chose "Fide vincere tenebras." Translates to "Conquering darkness through faith."

Wouldn't it make sense to use something quasi-Arabic for a Knight Order of Sarenrae -- I think the religion is mostly centered in Qadira. At least that is what I got from the Gazetteer, the Campaign Guide might have better info.

CJ

Fair point, thank you. I've added a "Sources" section to the page showing all the charges. I don't have the artist's name handy (that will have to wait for my next trip back to the library) but I did list the book and author.

I thought I recognized Fox-Davies.

According to the copy on my shelf, the artist is Graham Johnston, Herald to the Lyon Court.

I know next to nothing about copyright law, but just an FYI, Fox-Davies (A Complete Guide to Heraldry), was last published at least as recently as 1978. So while the version you scanned might have been very old...it has seen recent publication. And Fox-Davies is THE authority on Old English Heraldry -- so it isn't like it is an obscure, moldy old book. You might want to get permission from the publisher (Gramercy Books, New York - Avenel) if you intend to commercialize your application.

CJ

The graphics were scanned in form a very old book where the copyright has expired, then converted into SVG graphics. Using SVG versions of the graphics (when they are drawn or converted properly) means they can scale nicely to large sizes. When I add the ability to save and print larger versions of the coat of arms they won't look jagged. The samples on the "Charges" page are just cropped screenshots of the graphics as created by the system.

What was the title of the book? You should probably still give credit to the original author and artists.

CJ

This is the Ability Scores and Races thread.

You probably want to wait to post this until Classes are being discussed.

I know that everyone wants to talk about everything all at once. But Jason did ask us if we would constrain ourselves somewhat.

CJ

Well... Like someone pointed out, the EBERRON setting featured Orcs/ Half-Orcs as the CORE Druidic race. And if one of the Half-Orcs' favored classes is Druid, I think it's safe to say that some sort of Orc/Druid connection will be developed in Golarion. I'd expect different sorts of Druidic sects to be more common among the Orcs, probably pretty different than the standard D&D Druid. I think developing variant Druid sects would be great (Evil ones would be perfect for the White Witch land in Golarion), something I liked in Eberron. WIS would be the primary stat for any sort of Shaman/ Tribal Cleric in any case.

Eberron is just the latest campaign to evolve and the stated intent of Eberron was to break a lot of the old standards and memes. I can't think of any other campaign that posits orcs as druids (friends of nature).

So far Pathfinder has done a pretty good job of keeping a firewall between Golarion and the Pathfinder RPG. What I like about PFRPG is that it is NOT campaign specific.

I can understand why the association of Orcs and "wise" doesn't go down well, but look at the main Wisdom based skills: Survival, Perception, Sense Motive... (As well as will-power saves) All skills a wilderness-based, tribal society would be assumed to be adept at. Tribes are definetely based on small-scale politics, so maintaining your status in the tribe and being aware of the subtle shifts in alliances would be a part of tribal life. And the for the Urban/Human-raised Half-Orcs, Streetsmarts sound pretty appropriate to me.

I will begrudgingly admit that if we HAVE to give half-orcs a boost to a mental stat, wisdom makes the most sense. I just think giving half-orcs any mental boost is absurd.

Like was pointed out vis a vis Beholders, CHA isn't really mean't correlate 1:1 with 'attractiveness'. It's the main stat for Sorcerors, after all, and now several bloodlines (Aberrant, Undead, ?) progressively develop hideous disfigurations as they advance in level (most likely improving their CHA along the way). Charisma most clearly correlates with "personal presence" or "dominance", beautiful or ugly - And though many complain about it, it's the ability that the Intimidate skill is based off of - A good skill if you're part of a particularly brutal/agressive tribal society, like Orcs.

Thankfully no one is proposing half-orcs get a boost to CHA -- yet! I'm just not sure why Dwarves have less personal presence than half-orcs! When half-orcs came out in 1e they had pretty severe mental stat penalties and limits. This seems like a very extreme departure from those early days and the original flavor (for better or worse).

CJ

I am a fan of the Wisdom bonus. Orcs can be very shamanistic, and it makes sense for me to have some sense of that in the Half-Orc. I also like that this makes them more perceptive, able to read people a bit better, while still maintaining the low 'book smart' score.

What?

When did orcs become shamanistic? In the old days (1e) orcs might be tribal shamans or witch-doctors. But I wouldn't really call them shamanistic.

Sure the +2 WIS and no penalty to CHA makes them bang-up druids. But traditionally orcs have never "been at home in the wilds" nor "friends to the wild things and plants". If look back to the source material for orcs (LotR) then orcs were foes of the forest and represented destructive industrialism and desire to subjugate nature.

I'm not sure that by extraction half-orcs are friends to nature.

CJ

I would like to point out that the wisdom bonus does not seem particularly appropriate to the Half-Orc. I understand why the race was given this bonus - all races were given boni to one physical and one mental score so that they are not pidgeonholed into a single role (for the half-orc, this tended to be the barbarian...), but nevertheless, it just does not fit the half-orc flavor.

That said, if the half-orcs must have a bonus to a mental ability score, wisdom would be it, since it is the least inappropriate. Wisdom is probably the most compound ability score and I guess it can be interpreted as good senses and cunning instincts, but it still doesn't feel right.

I have to agree with Roman. Half-orcs don't feel particularly wise. In fact they are usually portrayed as more foolishly brave than cunning. I'm not even sure that a -2 INT is appropriate. Half-orcs have always been the bastions of low charisma. I know that there is a desire for balance. But are half-orcs actually MORE charismatic than dwarves? This seems more like ability bonuses and penalties were drawn out of a hat than any attempt to keep with the traditional role and character of non-human races.

If there is a concern about balance consider the following:
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma

This seems more in keeping with the traditional role of half-orcs. In keeping with this, the second favored class for half-orc should be shifted to rogue rather than druid (a role half-orcs have NEVER filled in any other setting or version of the rules).

CJ

I was rather disappointed to notice that dwarves are now relegated to the "service industry" as professionals rather than craftsmen. I think that this is a vast departure from the traditional role of dwarves and I'm not sure that giving dwarves a racial bonus to craft (even if it is only Craft/Stone)) is overpowering.

Through the ages and in much traditional mythology dwarves are craftsmen who work with their hands producing fine items.

Even the description on Page 8 states: "Dwarves have a love for earth and stone, making them fine stonemasons and expert miners."

Is there some thought that stonemasons aren't craftsmen?

Please restore the racial craft/stone and craft/metal to dwarves.

Thanks.

CJ

Reading the Beta now.

CJ

Thanks Jason. Have fun stormin' the castle.

CJ

I tend to differentiate between Profession (more service oriented trades) and Craft (a skill that can be used to create a masterwork item).

If anyone cares here is the list of Professions I allowed in one of my more pseudo-medieval campaigns:

Apothecary
Architect
Barber
Beekeeper
Boater
Bookkeeper
Butcher
Butler
Cartographer
Chamber maid
Clerk
Coachman
Courtesan
Cutler
Dairyman (or dairymaid)
Distiller
Doorman/Door ward
Driver
Engineer
Falconer
Farmer
Farrier
Fisher
Footman
Forester
Fortuneteller
Fuller
Gambler
Gamekeeper
Gardener
Gong farmer (one who empties privies)
Groom
Guide
Hairdresser
Herald
Herbalist
Herdsmen
Horse trader
Housekeeper
Huntsmen
Innkeeper
Jester
Kennel keeper
Lackey/Dog's Body
Launder/Laundress
Lawyer/Barrister
Limner
Maid
Maid in waiting
Merchant
Miller
Miner
Orchardmen
Ostler
Perfumer
Plumber
Porter
Poulter
Ratter
Sailor
Sawyer
Scribe
Scullion/Potboy
Serving maid/man
Siege Engineer
Slater
Soldier
Stableman
Tanner
Teamster
Tiler
Trapper
Usher
Valet
Vintner
Woodcutter

In the spirit of completion, here are the crafts I allowed in the same campaign:

Armourer
Atilliator (crossbow maker)
Author
Baker
Basketweaving
Blacksmith
Bookbinding
Bowyer
Brewer
Buttonmaker
Cabinetmaker/Jointer
Calligraphy
Candlemaker
Carpentry
Cobbling
Composer
Cook
Cooper
Draper
Dressmaker
Fletcher
Furrier
Gem Cutter
Glassblowing
Glover
Harness maker
Hatter
Hosier
Illuminator
Jeweler
Leatherworking
Locksmith
Milliner/Lacemaker
Musical Instrument Making
Painting
Playwright
Poet
Pottery
Ropemaker
Saddler
Sculpting
Shipwright
Shoemaker
Stonemasonry
Tailor/Seamstress
Tinker
Wainwright/Cartwright
Weapon Smith
Weaving
Wheelwright
Woodworking

CJ

No, I think you have a pretty good understanding. All of the points you bring up are exactly what I am trying to work around.

I suppose I could do the “series of unfortunate miscommunications” thing. Pearl Harbor anyone?

We are talking high-tech here. Would it be reasonable for the armored column to be cloaked or in stealth-mode while operating on their own side of the border. That might make waltzing the entire force in to the theater at hyper-bliztkreig speed. You could also make them LEO-drop-tanks (that would be freakin' scary). You launch them off into low orbit, sling-shot them around the globe and have them drop from 10,000 feet!

"Do you hear something?"

The fifth columnists could also be feeding mis- or dis- information to the target country (I don't recall the name at this point). The mass of tanks and supplemental equipment might just look like a storm front.

Or maybe the target country has bid out their early warning system to the lowest bidder -- or someone subsequently "bought" by the Good Duke. This isn't unreasonable if they are already farming out their defense.

CJ

Hello,

i just moved back to Washington and am looking for a gaming group. I live in Duvall and I am looking for a weekly gaming session. I am still looking for a job so currently I am free and after I find a job I will fight for my weekly gaming fix. I would love to join you guys if you still need a player.

Welcome Composer82.

I'm also out in Duvall. We should do beers at the Twin Dragons some time.

You should also check out the PaizoCon II Meet-Up Group, the Seattle Mob Gaming Group (meets monthly in Redmond), and the Seattle Gamers Assembly -- a really active Yahoo Group that meets somewhere on the other side of the water every week. I'd invite you to my weekly game in Bellevue -- but we are sort of over capacity as is (I will let you know if anyone drops).

CJ

Those are great ideas. However, I am going for a full-on invasion feel. So I need a command group in orbit and probably, at least, and entire army on the ground.

Understood. For something like this though it is difficult not to telegraph your moves -- unless you have some serious high-speed armor. I would think you lose some of your "surprise we are being invaded" feel if folks have had time to already panic. Though you are talking about ultra-modern armor hear, so maybe that isn't such an issue. Still with that comes modern warning systems. Even with the build of tensions (the invadees have had time to hire their rent-an-army)...folks on the border are going to be freaked.

I may not understand the situation fully though.

CJ

#2073

Faction to be determined.

CJ

I am still trying to figure out exactly how Regina could mobilize a command into the Efate system without someone noticing. I was thinking the Duke used the pretense of visiting. Once in orbit, he drops troops to “take control” of the situation. Much chaos ensues.

So does the Duke just need to sneak the forward observers and command unit into place...or does he need to push the entire column into Efate?

Sneaking forward observers into place is significantly easier:
1. Amateur birding group (has optics and perhaps comms units)
2. Convention of radio enthusiasts
3. Circus troupe

For the command unit you might try disguising it as a film crew -- lots of vans with odd equipment, etc. "Yes ma'am we're here to do a documentary on Efate's failed democracy."

Just some ideas.

CJ

Well...this is heresy...but I like it the way it is in Alpha 3.

Spellcraft is all about making magic work. It seems reasonable to have "casting under duress" part of this skill.

Knowledge Arcana is how magic works -- more book skill than practical application.

I know that this is an unpopular stance -- but it is what I believe. As a GM I would alter PrC's that have a Concentration requirement to something like a minimum WILL save.

CJ

You need to update the Personas add-on. Go to the Add-ons tab and check for updates. (It should be version 1.0a6 or something over 1)

Sorry for my incomplete/non-existent instructions everyone...

Also of note: I'm not sure if it works for Firefox version 2. It works on FF3 though... :)

Link for latest version of Personas

Yeah, I needed to upgrade to FF3, then upgrade Personas. It seems to work now and looks quite spiffy.

CJ

Who stands in opposition to the armored column?

Getting caught between the armored column and the drop marines with their orbital platforms could prove exciting. Maybe the tanks are in retreat as well in the face of the OGRE and GEV's.

Maybe the party has to race to get to the last bridge over the Grand Canyon of Mars (or wherever). The bridge is mined and held by the opposition and they have to figure out how to cross before the tanks blow it, or the opposition blows, or whatever.

The party ends up fleeing with the most inept refugees known to man. Civilians who are quite likely to end up messy smears gumming up the tank treads without assistance.

CJ

My instructions were for Windows XP versions. We ran into the same problem in the chatroom. The XP version I have is 1.0a6.
I would also check under Extensions for Firefox, click on Personas extension, click on options and see if you can select preferences from there as well.

I am running XP. But it looks like there might be a difference between installing basic Personas on FF and Custom Personas. I haven't been able to find the download for Custom Personas.

Of course I could be totally wrong.

CJ

Ouch it looks like the much anticipated butt-kick commenced. Wow. I am really impressed with the ability of this party to "pull it out" at the end. Further it would appear that some of the party's tactical sense has been restored (at least they haven't split up the party again). Keep up the good work we are all pulling for you!

I have really enjoyed the Chronicle of this adventure and look forward to reading more.

CJ

Once you have the basic addon installed, you should see a small foxhead at the bottom of your firefox screen. Click on this and go to preferences, and check the box for custom persona then hit ok.

click it again to go into Custom Persona, and choose edit.
Select the two graphics, make sure you pick the correct one for header and footer.

That should help apply the custom persona to your firefox theme.

This is for Windows versions of Firefox.

I have a cute little fox head -- but clicking on him doesn't prompt a Preferences tab.

My choices are:
Most Popular
Recent
New
All

CJ

I'm going to need a sidequest or two for my players -- we are using a slightly slower rate of advancement. I'm not sure rafting down a river is something they would chose to do (and I don't own the magazine in question).

Any other "adventure seeds" GM's have used?

CJ

Is anyone likely to be at Dragonflight (in Bellevue) this weekend?

CJ

Ok, wait, let me see if I understand the issues.

1) people want to see more feats that make shields more defensive, besides just giving more AC, somethings like the Shield Specialization, Shield Ward, and perhaps Active Shield Defense from PHB2 (which obviously are not open content, but something similar could be designed).

Exactly. At a minimum this is what I am looking for. I want a little love for the one-handed fighter.

I'm not really looking for anything more than a couple feats that increase the Shield AC bonus and perhaps reduces the Armor Penalty. More is better though.

CJ

You can also evoke some other interesting sensations with your descriptions.

#1 In port. As you clamber on deck, a wave of stagnant heat slams into you. Your chest clutches as you fight to breathe the air that has been baking over the harbor since day break. The oily reek of dead fish, decaying sewage, and a large bloated bunyip corpse burns in the back of your throat. The deck pitches beneath you on the wake of an outbound Chelish cog and you regret that the Varisian cook spiced last nights’ meal. Above wheel countless gulls and cormorants against a sky bleached of all color by the relentless sun.

#2 In the mine. A hundred thousand pounds of basalt and granite looms above you pressing down on your shoulders and your spine instinctively curls in upon itself. The smoky pitch of your torch stings your eyes and its flickering light offers scant hope against the near perfect blackness before you. Centuries of water seeping through the cracks in the mountain rock have coated the walls with sparkling patches of crystalline needles, rusty blotches of lichen, and globules of glistening ebon mold.

I find that it is the little things that make the most impact.

#3 In the forest. Ravens fill the branches of the lightning blasted oak. Their eyes track your progress. They make no sound.

CJ

thelesuit wrote:

Using a shield as a weapon is an option.

Using a shield as a means of not getting hit should also be an option. Thus far, this has been a neglected option.

CJ

You don't need any feats to use a shield as a weapon, though you do take some pretty serious penalties if don't take some feats. But if you want to bash someone and keep the AC, that is what improved shield bash does. So what exactly is the problem?

The problem is that I'm posting this to the wrong thread.

I am totally thread jacking here to support my own agenda -- which is give us more defensive Sword & Board options.

That is the problem.

CJ

If the point is to get AC and not attack, then why even worry about the shield bashing aspect? You should be using your shield to protect yourself not attack other people in that case.

Yes. The "point" of a shield is not to attack. Shields don't have points -- unless you are using those funky Drow shields or the shields with spikes or the African shields with horns...

...so SOME shields do have points. Many shields do not have points.

If you were to chose to carry a weapon in your off hand in many instances you could do better than a shield.

Using a shield as a weapon is an option.

Using a shield as a means of not getting hit should also be an option. Thus far, this has been a neglected option.

CJ