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I looked at 3 CR 15 monsters. One was an agathion, and one was a a demon. Both had cmd of 41.

Strangely a Jotund Troll is huge, and he is only cmd 33.

But even with the Troll you need a pretty decent base bonus to have much chance at doing a maneuver with him.

Maybe +10 is too much. But I can tell you this stuff gets big fast the higher CR you get to. It takes a dedicated build and tricks to pull it off.

The dragons at CR 15 are like cmd 40, 41 things like that.

If you pull a maneuver on Joe Sorcerer he isn't going to resist any of your maneuvers probably without shapechange magic. So I really don't know what to say.

Wish someone who had played a grappler or something at high levels would give some input as to the bonus you need to get things done.

But all the explicitly high cr stuff has really good cmd unless they are mostly class level based.

Heck a Storm Giant is cr 13, and has cmd 42. It may seem unrealistic to some, but I kind of expect a 15th level monk (or other character) whose whole thing is wrestling to be able to grapple a Storm Giant and have decent chance to win.

And I have no particular reason for picking CR 15 to look at monsters. It's just higher than level 10, which to me is where things start to really wonk out.

Ah, crap was going to close the window I pulled up Storm Giant in, and saw the constant Freedom of Movement. So I guess no one is grappling a Storm Giant unless they are in an antimagic field or something. Forgot all about that FoM thing.

My guess is you may be too stingy. +4 to maneuvers is appreciable at lower levels.

But you just need something more to do anything with huge and and larger creatures. Not only do they get size bonuses, they get str bonuses.

I know there are builds that use maneuvers even at high levels. But without knowing all the tricks, a barbarian can do maneuvers well with just the strength surge power. And if true strike can be used on a maneuver (it doesn't help you on grapples) maneuver like disarm, it is like an autosucceed usually.

+4 is fine at lower levels. But the master trick really needs to be like +8 or +12 or something.

I guess it depends on the patron too. I think some of those get Giant Form. Enlarge person may be on the witch list too.

You know, this is just a thought but you have gone from a full caster, half bab class, to a 3/4 bab 6 level casters.

Really you have a hybrid class now, not an archetype mod.

I guess it doesn't make a difference since Paizo seems like they are never going back to address things like this and the Titan Mauler.

It would suit me just fine if they nixxed the white haired witch archetype and used yours for a new hybrid class though.

Seems to work better than the half bab thing did.

I actually really liked this.

One thing I would do though is remove the rounds/minutes per day per level for the Glide tricks.

Why do you feel that is necessary? Just have it be something they can do all the time. Heck if a normal witch took the right hex, she can featherfall all day long if she wants right? Why does this character have to be limited in that way.

And as for Advance Gliding you really think that one is going to come up all that many times when she can take the advanced tricks? Just totally remove all these per level time things.

You also have to consider that combat maneuvers get really hard to pull off as you increase in level, with all the jumbo size things out there that proliferate as you level.

Int and character/caster level to combat maneuvers isn't going to cut it. Any maneuver build needs a trick of some sort to pull it off. Whether it is something like a barbarian's strength surge, or a true strike spell (which isn't on the witch list unless a patron gives it).

You need some kind of feature like "Big Hair" that increases the size category of the hair for maneuvers, and then "Big, Big, Hair" to do it even more.

I'm not even joking. Look at the cmd of common opponents at like level 15, and tell me how you pull off a maneuver. Unless you are fighting some kind of humanoid with class levels.

I think the market may be splitting even more.

When I say that I am talking about "crunchiness." I think all these rules, archetypes, feats, mechanics really suit some people.

But the longer I go (as a number of people here have stated already), I just get tired of the overall clunkiness and how long it takes to do anything in this system. Heck I think it takes too long to resolve things at lower levels a lot of times, let alone the higher ones.

So I'd say it's not just Pathfinder, it's all the 3.x/Pathfinder mechanics I don't really enjoy anymore.

How many people are at a similar point I do not know, but I don't think it is a trivial number.

I haven't been keeping up (or playing any D&D lately TBH), but I am kind of curious as to how 5e is doing. It isn't always a scientific thing, but I know ENWorld has about twice the activity in the 5e forums as the Pathfinder ones.

But even with people that enjoy crunch, it just seems to me that there is kind of an archetype and variant class fatigue. Just how many are they going to make anyway?

And if you count adventures, I'm pretty sure Golarion is closing in on Forgotten Realms page count, at least through the end of third edition.

But every game company is going to hit a wall like this I think. I mean geez, if I see one more book of feats I think I'd barf. Actually I don't even bother to read them anymore, even when I can borrow someone's copy. It's just way too much now to even be fun.

Michael Johnson 66 wrote:
A fugitive ninja from Nippon named Hisao....

His backstory has to be bigger than your entire adventure.

Linji wrote:
Oh yeah, as far as tiger buffing goes, depending on the circumstances, he can get (in no particular order) Echolocation (UM), Air Walk (CRB), Resinous Skin (UC), Spider Climb (CRB), Longstrider (CRB), Negate Aroma (APG), Barkskin (CRB), Featherstep (CRB), Strong Jaw (APG), Animal Growth (CRB), Life Bubble (APG), Endure Elements (CRB), and Resist Energy (CRB [I'm a fire Druid, so he needs this]).

Using some of those things as I imagine you would is a lot to ask of the Handle Animal skill, even if you get a big bonus.

Trying to imagine training an animal to use Air Bubble to operate underwater, or walk through the air.

Just a Guess wrote:

There are a lot of things that from the flavour are THE thing for one or the other martial but in reality is done much better with magic:

- Mobile fighting
- finding stuff
- stealth
- tracking
- surviving in hostile weather (hot or cold)
- protection from mundane attacks
- lighting fire
- making light
- securing a campsite
- setting and finding traps

Out of all the posts here this one really struck home with me.

I mean you can set up some kind of "skill challenge" thing for a ranger to show off those skills he put points in, and a wizard can almost effortlessly pull it off better if he is willing to mem a few spells.

Take lighting a fire. They recently added some cantrip ("Spark?" think that is the name) that pretty much just lights things (like you have a match or something).

Thing is I've been using Prestidigitation for that for years. Unless Prestidigitation is not on your spell list, why would you ever take this?

And as nearly as I can tell, you can use Prestidigitation to try tinder, or even wood if you you were willing to spam it enough (and why not?), along with lighting a fire.

I tend to use spells like Locate Object and Creature more than most people. You can do some incredible things with either spell if you have a fast movement rate. Things like finding a sword or amulet that was dropped in a swamp and is underwater or covered by mud.

For 100 years.

And don't get me started on things like Climbing or Swimming. If you have to use them for some reason before 5th level or whatever, fine take your chances.

But later on you use spells to do whatever you needed better than 20 ranks in climb would let you do anyway. Heck that is as early as 3rd level actually.

Then there is stuff in the rules about survival checks and outdoor conditions. Not only do very few people want to go through all that bookkeeping, Endure Elements does it better.

And unless you are contriving things, I personally have almost never seen a situation where someone had to "gather" food. (Even though that would be an important thing in real life. In this system you just aren't away from civilization long enough for your backpack of iron rations to run out. And divine casters can summon unlimited water now.)

"It isn’t that their strategy isn’t sound. It’s simply that, at this point, rolling a 1 or rolling low initiative can be the death of a character when they fight something that can actually challenge them. In this case, it just happened to be a kraken."

Yeah, the old rocket tag problem. This is one of the many reasons I prefer older versions of d&d now (BECMI in my case). Guess I really need to try 5e.

The WLD largest dungeon really takes away some of my preferred tactics too. I always take dimension door as a spell if I can.

Dunno, I guess we all have an optimizer inside us, but given the rule constraints I'm not sure what your guys could do. A Master Summoner would have been an ideal party member from the beginning of this dungeon, but that is out.

You've pretty much had all the core classes represented at some point. Not sure some generations of your party were optimized (or had class combos that made a lot of sense), but this dungeon has chewed up and spit out all of them.

I have a dream though. One day I want to see the TexAssian Ranger come through a gate in all his assless chapped glory, riding some kind of domesticated demon. He's either gonna chew bubblegum or kick ass, and he is all out of bubble gum.

Okay, it's a joke. But after the years of reading this thread, he and the halfling who can survive anything linger in my mind the most. God, what was his name? Riswan? The fighter with all the save feats and toughness (I do that with all my fighters too)?

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Oooh tough one.

I guess maybe the Sodden Lands cultures that are pretty much destroyed?

Other than that Rahadoum sorta.

Not sure you could map a clear analogue.

Funny how we all have different takes on things. I view Andorran as being something like colonial America (think this one is pretty popular).

I think Cheliax is something like the Spain of the conquistadors.

Nirmathas and Lastwall have some similarities to England and Scotland to my eye.

Always kind of thought as Taldor as French, but you could go Italian with it easily.

Guess it is an eye of the beholder thing.

Well if you are doing it for PFS, maybe the devs will be so kind as to clarify what they meant.

However I'm reasonably sure they never considered this particular combo.

As for a home game, if I were running it, you could use the combo with my full blessing.

Let me get this straight: you have a feat that allows you to quicken a class feature when it requires a standard action.

But because the class feature requires only requires a move action in this case you can't use it. Even though in the pecking order a move action is generally held to be less "time" than a standard action. And you can use a standard action to do anything that you can as a move action.

Does not compute. No idea what you will get if you faq this, but I imagine most people would think this kind of parsing is silly. I sure do.

Except that you can use a standard action to perform a move action.

Not really sure I understand the parsing here.

Although even with the paladin what chance did these guys have? Sounds like an instakill.

What possible strategy could these guys have used? Looks like they would have died no matter what they did or who was in the party.

I don't really see any obvious mistakes. They were investigating something, and a monstrosity with a zillion attacks per round just suddenly surfaces and attacks. There's really not much you can do about that, and I can't imagine what the dc for spotting it in the first place would have been.

So as far as I can tell, the adventurers were always scheduled to be jumped by something that could pretty much kill all of them so quickly they wouldn't even get a chance to react.

Have I got this right?


And the body count continues.

How in Iomedae's name did a paladin fail a will save?

I don't see any way this works.

CMD bonuses just get too high.

You literally need to start talking about +10 bonuses to give them a chance to work. Maybe spells that can force a save or the like every round would benefit, but if it is a one shot kind of spell you need some serious amplification to how it works.

This spell is vague (not counting the set numerical bonuses it gives you).

The wording on it either makes it incredibly powerful, or something the dm ignores in order to have a story.

I mean you could have a locked door that only opens if you enter 7618 on a series of dials. Foresight can literally let you do it first try, depending on how you want to read it.

Or perhaps "I really should cast Protection from Energy:Fire" or "Spell Immunity:Envervation/Force Cage/Chaos Hammer" before I do in this door.

Most dm's aren't going to go along with what this spell can potentially do, so it usually just gets relegated to giving the relatively minor bonuses.

Kind of like the old debate about "I cast the illusion of a floor over the pit trap using Silent Image" or "I cast the illusion of a wall at the end of the hall, and we'll stand behind that."

Imbicatus wrote:
CWheezy wrote:

Since shillelagh can only be cast on nonmagical weapons, I found a hard time making it work.

Actually, that's not entirely true.

Why in the world do you need teleport to craft that? And without doing something convoluted to access spells, who exactly could qualify for making this thing anyway?

Oh yeah, the ultimate weapon for a fighting huge treant.

The Caber. Not sure that one is in Pathfinder, but a tree... throwing another tree.

That's gotta be good for something, even if it isn't optimized.

I've looked at doing this before, and to my mind there are some questions that need to be answered about how some of the revelations work (and shapechange magic in general).

Okay, one of the Wood Oracle revelations lets you shift into plant forms. Eventually you can become a treant or whatever (I like treant, but you could focus on an unarmed attack build - maybe).

1) If you are basically wood, does wood bond affect your natural attacks? Does it affect the natural attacks of something that arguably isn't wood like an assassin vine?

2) Can you cast Magic Vestment on the Wood Armor from the revelation? I tend to think yes, but some people argue no.

3) Let's say you become a treant, or any of the other plant forms. I'd think most people say you lose the wood armor, or any weapon you are wielding, unlike if you somehow shifted into Fire Giant or something form.

But nothing I have ever read tells me you couldn't immediately resummon the Wood Armor as soon as you shifted. Really the only loss you would have is if you had cast Magic Vestment on the armor in human form.

But ironically as nearly as I can tell, if you "prepped" your armor as a treant, it would stay with you if you shifted back to human form.

4) Weapon. Do you lose it transforming? What about other gear like your haversack? You clearly keep things like that in shapes like Fire Giant. I might add if you have the weapon revelation you could summon another, though it wouldn't last long. You could just put it on the ground and pick it up when you transformed. But the size wouldn't change.

5) I guess Treants can cast spells. I'm pretty sure I have seen Treant druids and rangers in different places.

But this kind of thing is woefully undefined in this game.

I think you need a lot of dm interpretation using this mystery.

The upside is big though, a giant sized Tree swinging a telephone pole. Even if it isn't optimized that's good for some smack And lots of style points.

I will say though that I think two-weapon fighting is a trap option for this guy. You just don't get enough feats without a good bit of dipping.

One weapon power attack.

You can also make a viable archer that is pretty viable in melee due to natural abilities, but archery would eat all your feats in this case.

Well Saemon Havarian was one bit of business I really wanted to take up, but the game ended.

I somehow think that God or no, he will slither out of whatever you have planned for him though.

Comics. God I remember them so well (even if my particulars are kind of off).

Kamandi. I didn't know what acid was when I was a kid, but my adult opinion is Jack Kirby's body produced natural acid.

Or the Fantastic Four when they were fantastic. Weird Kirby machines and weird Kirby dots. Tooling around the Negative Zone, with things like Annihilus lurking.

Or the Hulk taking on a heavy hitter every month. Absorbing Man, Abomination, The Leader, Rhino, Juggernaut. Or the Hulk walking through a man's brain (Glenn Talbot), on the start of his journey into the Microverse and the encounter with his one true love (for many years), Jarella.

JSA/JLA crossovers.

The Legion of Superheroes (it started getting really good just a bit before Cockrum, and he put it over the top).

Wolfman Teen Titans.

Always loved the Defenders and their cast. Nighthawk, Hellcat, and Valkyrie will always be the core members to me.

I still get a chuckle years later thinking about Moon Knight escaping a death trap in the Defenders. This was just a little after his appearance in Werewolf By Knight, when the popularity of the character made him useful to put in other titles, and he had no "mythos."

Nick Fury's little brother was a petty criminal who got hooked up with the Zodiac Gang, and he ... long story, won't go into it here.

But he had Moon Knight trapped in a pit, one that was going to fill up with water and stay that way long enough for anyone to drown. Because he was a villain, but not a jerk, Scorpio (Fury's brother) threw him a beer before sealing the lid on the trap.

Last we see of Moon Knight, he is leaning against a wall, popping the tab on a cold one.

Next day Scorpio checks on the trap; nothing in it but a puddle and a beer can.

I guess it isn't really a player character thing, but I have had an idea for a long time for a story involving a dog.

My idea was that (for some reason) a mage or priest was the caretaker of an isolated village of handicapped people. You know retarded, crippled, etc.

The setting is your typical medieval murderfest, but this isolated village in the mountains or whatever is a peaceful oasis.

Well anyway the mage is getting older and knows he is going to die. So what does he do? Who can he trust to look after his people when he is gone?

Then his eye turns to his faithful border collie...

Anyway you know the drill, rituals, magic, "a mage did it."

We have an awakened anthropomorphic half-dog creature with some kind of template. The creature has an overwhelming purpose: to guard and protect his charges.

I was going to have a group of adventurers encounter this village and wonder how it could possibly exist in all the chaos. And why no one from any surrounding village will even go near it. To cap it off, no one in the village can really answer the question.

Brigands know from bitter experience not to even approach this village. Because if they do, the gods help them.

They will hear howling in the night, getting closer each night. It can't be reasoned with, you can't shake it from your trail, and it absolutely will not stop until you are dead.

Was going to call the short story "Guard At The Gates of Hell."

They recently changed this class in the Unbound supplement.

Are you guys playing that version or the old one?

I never saw the old one as overpowered unless you compared it to a character with no magic. Against a full caster they don't compare as well.

Though if you can master all the critters a Master Summoner can pull out of his keister you are closer than just about anyone else.

Whoever that guy is that plays Littlefinger in Game of Thones would be a perfect fit.

Throw some black hair dye on him, and a moustache and call it a day.

I'm confused. I understand that the crossbow may have some kind of mechanical advantage, but couldn't you use an alchemist to make a Green Arrow/Hawkeye type?

You know exploding arrows, fog arrows, boxing glove arrows...

It would work with a crossbow, but the theme I'm after is the bow.

Is there something stopping you from using all these tricks with a regular bow?

Heck the sky's the limit with this.

Playing Civ 5 right now and tinkering with religions.

How about one where Christianity never became dominant in Europe?

Or one where Mohammed was killed by a runaway cart or something and Islam was never founded. That one seems like it would be really interesting.

Or how about if the Mongols took Western Europe? As I remember the story, it wasn't really any brilliant military effort that saved them. The Khan died, so everyone had to go back to Mongolia to vote for a new Khan.

Or Persia defeats the Greek defenders and Frank Miller can never write a comic that got turned into a vaguely homoerotic movie?

Or Lincoln escapes assassination. That one would be really interesting.

Or Churchill was removed in some kind of putsch, and England makes peace with Germany like Hitler wanted. Personally I think that one ends with Soviet tanks on the shores of France about 1948, but opinions differ.

Or if you are really kinky... the Red Sox never trade the Bambino to the Yankees, and the Yankee franchise suffers a century of frustration. That one might be marketable.

I don't really have a contribution for powers, but I am kind of curious as to his backstory.

I mean how did he become a Barbarian as opposed to say a fighter, and what got him involved with firearms and technology?

TarSpartan wrote:
Greylurker wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
Did it strike anyone else odd that everyone just stands around in this issue?

It really did.

You have 52 Superman siting there asking "how do we save everyone?"

You're SUPERMAN, you don't ask that question! You figure out the answer and you do it because you're bloody SUPERMAN

Contrast that to the original Crisis where the powers-that-be picked eight heroes from across the multiverse to save everyone, and three of them were derivatives of Superman. Batman barely appeared in the whole Crisis. My how times have changed in thirty years.

Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out how Batman suddenly became so... mega.

He just wasn't that big a deal even as long ago as the 80's. Or the Joker even to be honest.

As a guess I'd link his increased popularity to the Batman cartoon of the early to mid 90's, which continued more or less in different forms through the end of the JLU cartoon.

I think it is generally considered to be one of the best, if not the best, cartoon series about a comic book character ever.

My take anyway. But I go back a long way with comics, and Batman just wasn't all that in the old days. Certainly not the key character in so mnay series, and he had nowhere near as many guest appearances in other books.

Like in the 80's, he was usually in Detective, Batman, Batman Family, Brave and the Bold, and most of the time he was a Justice League member.

Seems like a lot, but you saw Superman a lot more.

Haven't really followed comics in years.

But I really want a good Legion of Super Heroes title. That might be the only thing that would make me a buyer again. (of course when you go down that road, one thing leads to another...)

But while I have a soft spot for the Archie Legion I kind of wish they would pick it up just past the Great Darkness saga or some point not too far from that.

MMCJawa wrote:

I just started watching Arrow and Flash...I got to say I have a lot of Faith in Supergirl based on those shows, since the same creative talent are involved.

I am worried how well the show will do on CBS. That station hasn't had a whole lot of genre entertainment, and what they have had is kind of bad (looking at you Extant and Under the Dome). And even though CBS owns part of CW...I am kind of skeptical CBS will allow this show to exist within the Arrow/Flash Universe.

Might be a good thing. Flash barely fits in with Arrow.

Kryptonian level power would take it up to ... 11 squared. Just too big a power difference, and what works in a comic wouldn't work too well on a screen.

Rynjin wrote:
daemonprince wrote:
Or the fact that someone in the room needed to ask what it was so that it could be explained to the audience, and of the 5 people in the room she was the least likely to have known it due to the nature of her scientific area of study being biology could be why she was the one to ask.

Did it even need to be explained to the audience? Most people know what a singularity is, and it would have become pretty obvious what was meant once it happened.

And if it did, they should have put one of the dumber members of the crew like Iris or Eddie in the room, not make one of the smart team look woefully under-educated.

Singularity is just a magic word to the writers of this show.

I'm not a physics guy but "Mach 2" doesn't really count for a whole lot when you are talking about particle accelerators.

And the idea of the Flash stopping the accretion of a black hole by running around it is kind of... that makes absolutely no sense even by comic book science standards.

Best just to relax and go with it I guess.

Cthulhudrew, I guess it is pointless, but I wanted to add something.

Barry made the decision not to save his mom, preserving his own timeline (which logically should already be screwed up because Thawne never existed, so who did kill Barry's mom?).

But there was the "original" timeline where Barry's mom wasn't killed and he became the Flash in 2020 or whatever.

Now if I were from the original timeline, might I not have a vested interest in making sure the timeline where my children were born or whatever came to be?

It's not just them, it's an infinite number of people.

And while it goes beyond the scope of anything discussed so far, what about planets beyond earth? I'm not sure it counts if nothing on earth ever influenced an event on those planets, but the wicket gets sticky in a hurry.

I guess there may be two schools of time travel. One where you just don't do it, and another where you do whatever you want at any time.

Don't think too much about it, but bear in mind you will probably get unexpected bad to go along with whatever good you got from your intervention.

Not thinking and television go together like ham and eggs, so I guess that is the best way to handle it.

Cthulhudrew wrote:

(Incidentally- and this is something that this show didn't address either- I've rarely found any story that takes a broader view of time travel shenanigans; one that deals with the fact that dealing with/correcting time travel in the present-day of the story's protagonists often has longer reaching consequences for the futures from which the time traveler(s) came, and all the lives that may be destroyed/altered as a result. Eobard's "you're all dead to me" attitude often seems to be the inadvertent attitude of the heroes of the present who don't realize that they're eliminating potentially millions of lives just because "they don't exist to us yet."

Time travel. Don't do it.)

I guess you could counter argue that your new timeline has plenty of people who are better off, and individuals that were born in the new one, as opposed to their parents never meeting and whatnot in the original.

Basically no matter what evil you do, you do good as well.

Of course a tv show isn't going to really touch the ramifications of time travel, and god are they myriad.

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
This NPC codex? It is a good help, indeed. I would hope for one including all core books and a couple with more advanced tactics (i.e. use of style feats).

I would also really enjoy a book that has all the NPC stat blocks from all the APs collected.

Get all of the following and stick it in a handy folder on your tablet/laptop - high level play will speed up considerably:

Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Rival Guide (10 complete four-member NPC parties; CR7 to CR23 - Golarion-specific)
Pathfinder RPG Gamemastery Guide (Chap 9 - good for minions / mooks)
Pathfinder RPG NPC Codex (Core-only NPCs)
Pathfinder Campaign Setting: NPC Guide (Crunch: Core-only - Lore: Golarion-specific)
Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea NPC Codex (Crunch: Golarion-specific PrCs - Lore: Golarion-specific)
Pathfinder RPG: Monster Codex (Awesome Sauce)

There is a hidden problem with using humanoid types with class levels as opponents at higher levels, as opposed to using dragons or some sort of monster that is formidable on its own.

Namely you have to give gear to humanoids to make them any sort of viable foe.

And unless you go into some kind of abstraction like the +5 armor, the +5 cloak of resistance, and +3 keen two handed sword aren't lootable...

Well your players will be swimming in a sea of loot. They'll have to build warehouses for all the items they get. Well unless that podunk town they still call home can inexplicably handle all those items.

Might be interesting, a minor town in the hinterlands that is the epicenter of world magic item trade.

RainyDayNinja wrote:
Last night, my wife speculated that now that Eddie knows he's destined to lose Iris, he'll heroically kill himself to keep Eobard from ever being born. That would be an... interesting way to beat him, for sure.

I've been thinking that for a while. But doesn't that totally mess up the timeline?

Comic book wise it would be a very interesting way to reboot a series (predestination appears to be a laughable thing in Flash TV time travel; I mean Eddie was always going to come to this point, tied up right?).

But I don't think the bulk the TV viewing audience would accept a Patrick in the shower scene, and redoing everything from scratch.

Do you know anything about getting an excel spreadsheet like this to work in Calc?

I just plain do not use Microsoft, other than things like this I have absolutely no reason to buy Microsoft Office.

Is there any magic bullet to get it to work?

I thought of something else related to the Eddie/Eobard thing.

I'm pretty sure that Eobard is going to be stopped, whether he is killed or put away for a while.

But assuming Eddie lives (a safe assumption? talk about plot protection) and finds out that Eobard is his descendent...

Doesn't that seem a little problematic? I mean you know one of your grand or great-grandchildren is going to become a ruthless killer?

Maybe no one ever tells him, but wouldn't you also feel kind of weird to know a friend of yours is going to have the Reverse Flash as a descendent? And that descendent is going to kill your mother and put your father in jail?

Grodd isn't the problem with this show. I'm starting to think they pulled the time travel genie way too early though. Abra Kadabra would be one thing, but Eobard has too many links with the current set-up.

kestral287 wrote:

Broodmaster seems like it's pretty much in the same boat as the Master.

I swear I don't think I have ever seen a single build that uses the broodmaster archetype. I check these boards every day, and it has been what, 3 or 4 years now? I guess someone has to have made one, but if they posted it here I missed it.

I've never even seen anyone mention having one as an npc or opponent. The only time it ever gets mentioned is in passing or a pitying comment.

The same for the evolutionist one. Pretty much what you see on these boards is straight summoners, Master Summoners, Synthesists, and very occasionally a First World Summoner (for Pugwampi power I guess).

The other archetypes might as well not exist.

Time Travel. How I love thee, how thou vex me.

Okay, it's pretty obvious, but having your great grandpa or whatever he is to Thawne (is he from the 25th century like in the books, or has he been TV retconned to 21st?), as an opponent is pretty dicey.

What happens if Eddie is killed? What happens if Eddie says "First thing tomorrow I'm getting a... Vasectomy!"

Does Eobard fade away?

I doubt they get that much in depth with it, but it is still a non-trivial detail.

Daredevil wasn't my favorite character (though I did buy him during the first Miller run).

But I am totally struck by the casting this show has done. The actor playing Murdoch looks like he was ripped out of the pages of the comic. Same with the ones playing Foggy Nelson and Karen Page.

And the Kingpin, wow he looks perfect.

I have to say that in a way the actress playing Karen Page impresses me most. Sometimes she is drop dead gorgeous, and at other times she looks like the junkie Karen Page was at a certain time. She really has an incredible range in how she can present herself.

Plus Melvin Potter... another guy who looks like he was ripped out of the book.

Well, whether anyone else wants him or not, I'd love to see what these guys could do with Stilt Man. Odds are it wouldn't come across well, but I dunno...

He usually got presented in a comical way past the 70's, but honestly his whole getup isn't bad at all (much like the Porcupine). Just saying that he basically has an exoskeleton with his curious gimmick. Actually Stilt Man could cover a ton of ground when he was trying to.

I figure they will go down the Bullseye/Electra road, but it would be nice to see some classic villains.

And since my "Daredevil Romance" was the Black Widow, I'd love to see her show up. Wonder if Johannsen would have the interest in a guest shot, and whether the legal arrangements could be made.

Be very interesting to see the dynamic between the Murdoch actor and her. Plus I'd imagine she might have much the same opinion Stick has of this version of Daredevil.

Good news, but all I can think of is how many chars are no longer with us.

I am going to say 7 died in the time posting has been suspended.

Anyone else got a number?

Helcack wrote:

Rouge's Touch:
The Rouge may touch anything that is red as a standard action to turn it grey as she absorbs the red into her body, doing this gains the Rouge a Blood Point, Once affected this change is permanent.

You mean a Blush Point.

Oh yeah, I think you need to work the words "Histrionics," and "Drama Queen" in somewhere.

Wow, you finished this thing? Do you have a writeup for any of your runs?

And it probably is the wrong place, but I've always wanted to read a campaign journal of The Night Below. I really wanted to play that, but it was hard for me to find a group who wanted to play a 2nd edition dungeon. I think some people have updated it for 3.x, but it was so cool looking I wanted to play it.

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I know it is a minor point, but I was overjoyed to see that Iris' mother was mentioned at the end of the episode.

No idea how they will play this, or even if it is supposed to be a red herring.

But I really would like to see Iris' mother be from the future. In the comics it was past Zoom's future.

This isn't really a spoiler because there was no mention of anything other than she was gone.

But I got fanboy hopes and dreams now...

Guess they would roll with Bart, but as I've said earlier in this thread I'd love to see XS.

Of course that is a lot to come up with from a name drop, but still...

ElMustacho wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

For the antimagic field, and whatever it can wish for, I buy and use a scroll of Aroden's Spellbane (DC 37, UMD of +32 and a roll of 10 per beastmass rules makes this a success). I have enough gold left.
It should be noted that the Pit Fiend has foreknowledge of Stalker at 19th level, because if it wanted to gain information then he had to use the wish just to know what happened to him, since once Stalker gets to lv 20 his mindblank activates.
+69 is the actual check to beat in order to notice our invisible Stalker.

You know obviously a Rogue doesn't have all your tricks (not to mention weird arms and tentacles), but potentially he could do a good chunk of your sneak attack damage.

Only thing is he has no where near the features and buffs to make sure he hits, protect himself, and some other things.

Still since you grossly overkilled each opponent, there should be some room for a Rogue. Maybe, with lots of gear and scrolls.

That Mind Blank effect makes a big difference.

Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Actually, the Legion build might have a fatal flaw. If we assume a large but finite number of cohorts die before killing the monster... doesn't that mean the monster should get exp for them? It doesn't come up for the other builds because they don't use sacks of free exp as their method of attack. If the monster took levels in a spontaneous caster with healing we would have to plot rate of level gain vs damage done to see if the horde outdamages the healing the monster gains by killing so many of them...

I think there is a hole in this, or at least a different way of thinking about things.

Do monsters get xp? I think these rules, xp, advancement etc are designed for player characters, not NPC's.

I'd have no qualm in the world about having a BBEG as a 15 wizard say, and have him be a guy who barely ever took a step outside the capitol city of the empire. He got his levels through study and experimentation. I'd feel no need whatsoever to rationalize that he ever went around thumping ogres or was in the Northern Campaigns or whatever to level up.

We use class levels and things to customize opponents. But to me it is not like they follow the same rules exactly.

The level of the NPC is up to the DM. The party fights him once, he runs, and the party doesn't see him again for 4 levels. The BBEG is whatever level I want him to be at this point, and he didn't have to do a single dungeon crawl to get there.

Geez all this hullabaloo over the wording of fluff text describing a type of revelation common to a number of oracles.

Look, all these different types of similar armor, fill the same purpose. They all have the same stats, have the same number of hours per day they can be used, etc. The only difference is that each set has an additional bonus like 5 DR/Slashing, a bonus to stealth (think one does that), or a blur effect against ranged attacks, that sort of thing.

To me some of the arguments used in this thread are ludicrous. Just because the flavor text for the Wind Oracle's ability is worded differently from the Wood Oracle's, one should work and one shouldn't?

Heck it you are rolling that way, a Wind Oracle's armor wouldn't work underwater I'd wager, but I've never heard of anyone playing it that way.

Long story short, there is abolutely no evidence that the dev staff ever considered that anyone would cast Magic Vestment on these things. I am utterly positive they never thought "Hmmmm, okay you can cast Magic Vestment on the Oracle of Bones' Armor, but you can't on the Oracle of Shadow's... yeah that's it, that is the way to balance it."

You are parsing something that was never considered by the devs.

The only question is whether you think any of them should be capable of being affected by Magic Vestment. I say yes.

Tell me something. If I used one of the creation spells to make a wooden shield, can you cast Magic Vestment on that? Yes or no. It is a perfectly normal wooden shield, except it is going to disappear in a number of hours.

So what is the difference with the Oracle features? Other than someone parsing flavor text that was written without the slightest inkling anyone would try something like this?

Cap. Darling wrote:
sunbeam wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:

Since the cohorts cohort is following the cohort and not the PC, the second one of them bites the dust the endless Line is all of a sudden not endless any more.

Now see you are making a mistake here.

After all, "The Last shall be First," otherwise it's all for one, and one on all, all of the time.

How is that making any sense?

Simple, whether the chain is infinitely long or not, you just send in the last one first. If he dies he was the cohort of someone else anyway. Then you send in the new last guy.

While everyone else is doing whatever they do.

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LazarX wrote:

The problem is the one YOU"RE brushing aside, the reason for the change in the Summoner, is that your conceptual/mechanically interesting eidolon is also the overpowered eidolon, when it's teamed with the Summoner's equally over powered spell list.


Yes or no, a summoner could deal with any given situation better than a wizard or cleric.

Yes or no.

I'd also like to point you to the Beastmass threads. The only summoner I saw in those was a Synthesist.

So, let me get this straight. Even though there were a number of classes that were considered to be more effective than the Summoner (Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer, Witch for sure with hexes, Oracle probably, Druids even just casting), and classes that did the fighting sidekick thing just as well or better (Druid, some Inquisitors, now Hunters)...

It was necessary to nerf the Summoner. Come on Druids can overmatch melee with wildshape, or overmatch melee with animal companions (minimal spell augmentation), not to mention they are full casters.

Come on. With this system any full caster rocks the world. Heck a Bard with leadership and a cohort can buff up the cohort seriously.

And Summoners were the problem. Right.

Cap. Darling wrote:

Since the cohorts cohort is following the cohort and not the PC, the second one of them bites the dust the endless Line is all of a sudden not endless any more.

Now see you are making a mistake here.

After all, "The Last shall be First," otherwise it's all for one, and one on all, all of the time.

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