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Eldritch Heritage can give it to you. Also if you have a staff I think your "features" might apply to spells you use from the staff.

But what is your curse? I remember looking at this idea before, and I think I was going to take Blackened and train away duplicated spells.

You probably want to take Elemental Spell as well, because fire is a common resistance.

With Cinder Step I'm not sure you need Feather Step Slippers.

Also your AC is probably not something to write home about. Might want to consider a Ring of Protection and some armor. Even if you are not a front line kind of character, you might get attacked.

You also probably don't need all three of Chain of Perdition, Spiritual Weapon, and Spiritual Ally.

And well, when you need Cure Disease/Neutralize Poison it is awful when you don't have them.

Also Murderous Command is a will save. Unless you are some kind of specialist, or frequently deal with mooks, a first level spell like that isn't going to work much unless you are specialized in that kind of thing.


I wonder if a Titan Mauler can use a Spiked Gauntlet meant for a Giant.


Solamnic Knights? Red Wizards? A Harper lecturing everyone and getting in their beards?

Cannibal Halflings gnawing on ... something in the corner?

A Hippo in a bright Red Uniform, including Pith Helmet, wearing a monocle, with a musket resting against the table?

A drunken oaf at the bar saying "I don't get it. Why doesn't anyone like me? I'm Bargle, what's not to love? It's that cursed Al-ita, Al-eena whatever her dratted name was, it's her fault!"

Superman and Batman sitting at another table, and Batman says "I think this really isn't our kind of thing Clark," then Clark says "Maybe Zatanna or Dr. Fate..."

A silvery figure with the slightest outline of trunks on his torso rests his hand on the top of a surfboard and bemusedly asks his drink "What am I going to do with you?"

There is a succubus in a skimpy outfit working the crowd. Her name is Saucy Jane.

There is a bard in the corner playing a piano singing "then there is Davy who is still in the Imperial Navy, and probably will be in the afterlife.."

A black haired, slightly portly, individual with mutton chop sideburns, outrageous sunglasses, and dressed in a white jumpsuit with loads of sequins and rhinestones drawls to him "I can do it better."


Sorry I was thinking of Improved Eldritch Heritage Arcane. It's been in the news a lot lately.

But:

A) They should have considered it.

B) It's here now. What are you going to do about it?


The hole in that is that you can only take a feat once. If you take Expanded Arcana (X) normally, you can never take Expanded Arcan (Y).

You guys are parsing an intent for a feature that the writers of this spell never thought to cover.


Hmmm my inclination is to never let anyone set up a permanent Teleportation circle (and also pretend that for the most part people who can cast Teleport don't do it as a business).

But Kudaku's last post gives me an idea. Imagine that the art of making Teleportation Circle permanent is lost, a knowledge possessed only by vanished civilizations, or it takes an artifact or something.

But say we have one on one continent, and a matching one on another say.

A whole culture develops around the gates. A city on both ends, two cities in very different environments. A single nation, which just happens to have its capital city on two continents, and which has leveraged this gate to have lucrative trade for a thousand years. And actually the whole economy and life's blood of this kingdom depends on the gate. And one of the gate cities would starve without this gate pair, being in a desert or something.

I'd go with that, but I wouldn't let players set one up.


Some of the Flame Mystery and Blackened Curse spells duplicate.

I think you can retrain them for spells on the Oracle list though.


Wow, I couldn't believe it. There used to be a spell called "Adaptation," that would let you adapt to any environment (not limited like that Planar Adaption thing), vacuum, the depths of the sea, absolute zero, poisonous atmospheres, crushing pressure...

Could have sworn that was a 3.x spell as well. Can't find one on the d20 srd, or the d20pfsrd.

Oh well.

Hmmm there is a Necklace of Adaptation in the d20pfsrd, but it is really gimpy compared to the 1e version.


Hmmm it would be cool to have a chance of teleport accidents. Not the old teleport into solid matter thing.

But like Star Trek Transporter accidents. You know you go to a mirror "Savage" world, and your counterpart goes to your world.

A good time is always had when they do these kinds of shows.


andreww wrote:


Lantern Archons are great if they actually get the chance to act but they are so fragile they may never get to do so. Attacking at +3 also means they actually have a really good chance of missing even relatively low touch AC's.

That's true, but perversely it gets easier for them to hit things in a lot of cases due to so many high level opponents having lousy touch AC, with so much of the high AC coming from natural armor.


andreww wrote:
Quote:
So first thing Mr. Magma Drake (Reflex 13) has to do is make two DC 23 (btw I have a rod of dazing spell in one hand, yes I have one) saves against an Aqueous Orb spell (using a 5th level slot for persistant, still a 3rd level spell). He has a 50% chance of doing this, so a 75% chance of failing one. The odds are in my favor. He is stuck essentially helpless for 3 rounds. Of course he also has to pass all his saves in the next two rounds, or be stuck an additional 3 rounds. So he is basically stuck for a long time.
The Dragon is huge, Aqueous Orb cannot catch it as it cannot affect anything bigger than large.

You might be right. Rules Fu is not my strong point.

But let's take a look at the spell:

"Any creature in the path of the aqueous orb takes 2d6 points of nonlethal damage. A successful Reflex save negates this damage, but a Large or smaller creature that fails its save must make a second save or be engulfed by the aqueous orb and carried along with it."

If you take the RAW, it seems to me it has to make the first save. Whether it is immune to being engulfed due to being Huge isn't the point. The only purpose Aqueous Orb serves is:

1) It is on the Summoner spell list.
2) It does damage. There are some other spells on the list that do damage, and would be candidates for affecting him. But flying negates a lot of them.
3) Therefore it can server as a delivery mechanism for the godly dazing spell feat.

Now there is some text about Aqueous Orb only affecting large size or smaller fires. Maybe you can extend that and use the text I just quoted to say Huge creatures are totally immune to the whole thing.

So I would go back to scouring the Summoner spell list to find an appropriate one, or rather just use Improved Arcane Heritage to get a good long range damaging spell with a reflex save.


Is the Magma Dragon one of your soloing challenges? It's pretty obvious that the reflex save is the worst one, and it has little chance of making the save against a primary caster who is at all optimized.

So win intiative, dazing spell, the Magma Dragon is toast.

Obviously a Summoner is going to have a hard time doing this, though Eldritch Heritage:Arcane, and Improved Eldritch Heritage Arcane:would remedy this nicely.

But let's play the game your way. There are no details for the encounter. If the Drake is so kind as to start out on the ground, his dex is 8. I'd say there is a reasonable chance of winning initative.

Now for the sake of argument let's say my charisma is 30 (reasonable for level 16.

Without making a build, here are a few more details: I took Persistent Spell, since a Summoner has some Pit spells and whatnot that are useful. And oh, let's say I took Improved Initiative and Superior Summoning, which are almost universally useful.

By the way this is a Master Summoner, though I plan to say something about the regular Summoner at the end, and the Magma Dragon.

Okay, no details on this "boss" encounter, but my big assumption is the drake is on the ground, and my small one is I win initiative.

So first thing Mr. Magma Drake (Reflex 13) has to do is make two DC 23 (btw I have a rod of dazing spell in one hand, yes I have one) saves against an Aqueous Orb spell (using a 5th level slot for persistant, still a 3rd level spell). He has a 50% chance of doing this, so a 75% chance of failing one. The odds are in my favor. He is stuck essentially helpless for 3 rounds. Of course he also has to pass all his saves in the next two rounds, or be stuck an additional 3 rounds. So he is basically stuck for a long time.

Now for some reason my Summoner had no eidolon up, and was just strolling through the dungeon with 15x(1d4+2) Lantern Archons. He won't need that many, but just saying. That is 67.5 Lantern Archons, call it 134 d6 rays. On average this is enough to drop him in 1 round, I'm pretty sure the light ray isn't subject to spell resistance, but I could be wrong.

Not discussed is Frighful Presence. But I still think I have enough time for my Lanterns to kill him. (Though Frightful Presence with a range of 330 feet is problematic for quite a few classes; this whole thing might not have been possible, however wizards/sorcerers can "nuke them from orbit").

Really you don't need the Lanterns at all.

Don't let the language confuse you, I might could word it better, but I'm not going to bother.

Chance of success in so many trials (where "1" is a success for our purposes, and a trial is a dice roll): 1 - (chance of failure)^(number of trials).

So for say 20 Succubi: 1 - (.95)^20 = 64% or so in one round. I could be rolling with 67. Or I could just take a few rounds. But in the end he is going to be my best friend.

Now I said we didn't need the Lanterns. You know, I could kill that drake with out summons, or an eidolon. Just daze it with aqueous orb then hit it with some cones of cold from a staff. Or if I took Improved Eldritch Heritage I'm sure I could have an appropriate evocation spell (and that is the weak point on the Summoner list) to use, using a rod of Elemental spell or something if the damage type isn't appropriate.

But you know? Any caster could do the same thing, half or not. All it takes is an appropriate reflex save spell that does damage, Improved Eldritch Heritage or Use Magic Device. And there is not much the Dragon can do if it loses initiative.

Okay we have another demonstration of how broken dazing spell is. I didn't need all the Lantern Archons. Good old Dazing spell. Horribly, totally broken Dazing Spell.

Now you might quibble with some things, like why I was walking around with 67 Lantern Archons. But the day before you see, Pooky (my gimped Master Summoner eidolon) and I were walking through our adventure. We spotted the Magma Drake and I said: "Whoah, Pooky! Gotta hit the reset button on this one! Guess you are sitting this one out!"

Pooky said: "Ah, Man! I can handle it! Let me at him, let me at him!" (Pooky sounds like Scrappy Doo from the cartoon)

Anyway we Greater Teleport to Absalom, go to the library consult a sage or two. We know everything about Magma Drakes after that.

So we entertain ourselves in Absalom, and next day I port back and get down to business.

There are other ways you could deal with this thing with the Summoner list. Thinking of what I could do with Magic Jar and a field trip.

But it's doable, though not as easy as for a full caster.

Now, in conclusion:

1) The Magma Drake has a horrible spell list (and no protection from whatever on it, plus a reroll isn't much good against the sheer numbers of charm monsters it is going to get). This thing would be a lot tougher if someone redid it's feats and spells.

2) Correct me if I am wrong. This thing really isn't much tougher than a regular Summoner's eidolon as a combat beast. And you can easily make an eidolon totally immune to fire. What makes it tough are the sheer hp's, the Frightful Presence, and the spells from the eidolon's standpoint. But as far as AC, damage, etc, the eidolon can pretty much match up.

So what could I as a normal Summoner do to even the field? Hmmm I could daz.. nah. We'll do something different. It's magic, no limits unlike those humdrum fighters. I'll think of something. Casters always do.

Even if it is harder than a wizard. Though I also believe that a lot of challenges are easier for a summoner than a wizard.


Thing about the teleport circle is that you can't do anything about it.

Sure you can guard an area that a permanent teleport circle is set to.

But nothing stops someone from making another one, or just casting the spell, without permanency.

And in addition you have to know that one has a destination in your country in the first place.

The things are essentially uncontrollable. Plus you have to shut them down at the sending end.


You know you could pretty much say that about any character class if the wizard is prepping for him.

But take a look at the Summoner list. Take at look at what he can summon and how long it stays around.

Really think he is totally helpless?

Now I'll give you my two cents. In normal play (and for the sake of argument let's just say an adventure path), a Master Summoner is ungodly powerful if they know the Summon Monster list well.

It really seems like there is an answer for everything in that list if you know it well enough.

Now as regards the "regular" summoner, and the synthesist... well they aren't as good. As far as pure melee goes I'd say a Synthesist is the best at that. When you take into account the Barbarian's and to a lesser degree, the Paladin's, ability to laugh off magic, well maybe they aren't so good.

And if you are pulling the Banishment card, or any other spell to nullify the eidolon, well fighters aren't so hot after a Mage's Disjunction either, or in an antimagic field.

Come to think of it, all classes are pretty bad in one of those. In the end they really are christmas trees of items to a certain extent.

But I'll tell you this: however clever you think you are, in a duel between a summoner and wizard (just put him here for the sake of argument), it's going come down to who guessed better, and especially who wins initiative. Because the summoner has a good enough spell list to come up with some nasty combos of his own. Maybe he always loses initiative to a diviner, and maybe a wizard has more ways to hose someone. But it can be done. In the end it is rocket tag, even if the summoner has fewer ways to do it.

Now to go back to something I said earlier. In normal play, well Summoners and especially Master Summoners do better than wizards. IF they know that summon list well.

Before you pull up hypotheticals, well let me ask you a question:

How many opponents in modules use dazing spell/spell focus/spell perfection like all the cool kids now? How many in your home games?

My guess is none. I know I haven't seen it in modules. So why are people pulling the banishment argument? I consider it established that there are a number of spells that totally hose certain classes. I mentioned one, Disjunction, we can argue about that one if you want.

Christ, how many mobs have Banishment as a spell like anyway? Seems to me you need an opponent with class levels or wish maybe to run into that one.

Kind of curious about something Andreww, you have a couple of sorcerer builds you have put into threads the past few weeks. How many spells they have, aren't on the Summoner list? Granted evocations won't be, and that takes out most of the good dazing spell candidates.


I've had a pet theory about this.

A large part of the demographic for this game is geeky males in the teens and 20's.

Frequently they consider themselves to be more intelligent than the dross surrounding them, while also not being as ... alpha male as some others shall we say. (Though in my experience if you do something really intellectually challenging you don't have the time or perhaps interest for this hobby).

So a large part of the appeal of this escapist game is for the aforementioned types to dominate the sorts they seem to have less status than in real life. Kind of like a fantasy novel emulator, but done our way.


If you go caster version (or maybe even melee) remember the revelation that gets you the confusion effect on inflict spells apparently works with the mass inflicts as well.

Not sure if it would be worth it, but you could easily optimize to make an Oracle who drives people mad, at least temporarily (which is really all we care about anyway).


This is a knotty spell. Always has been. I've seen it run a whole lot of ways.

In the end this thing is just not defined enough to do anything else but house rule it. And it's been that way since 1e (hmmm can't remember if this was Unearthed Arcana, or it was in the PH. I'm not digging it up.)

Okay how does Contingency "know" things. What senses does it have. Can it identify spells being cast?

I've seen it used for things like this: "If someone tries to cast dimensional anchor on me, my contingency will teleport me away before that happens." How does contingency know a spell is being cast, let alone which one?

Or: "If I am about to be attacked, contingency will cast Greater Invisibility on me."

Does contingency know things you don't? Like you are about to be attacked?

This spell sounds cool, but there is a lot of devil in it's details.


Great class. The Master Summoner is awesome. A lot of people say it falls behind the pure casters as you gain levels but I haven't seen it.

They get most of the standard gamebreaker spells (Teleport, Simulacrum), and most of the utility spells.

They can craft pretty well too, if they go that route. Really the biggest weakness they have is they don't get a bonus spell known per level like the other spontaneous casters (as a race bonus; that really amps up the other spontaneous guys).

I think Master Summoner is the best Summoner. If you study those lists and are familiar with them, you can do more with them than any other class. And there are a ton of spells that things you can summon can cast.

When I saw one make it up to the higher levels, no on really checked up on the eidolon to see if it was "legal." It was more of an occasional scout/perceiver/buddy kind of eidolon.

The summons were where it was at.

But like everyone says you multiply the sheer amount of stuff one guy has to position and make rolls for. And if you aren't prepped on what you could summon (and you will find uses even for lower level summons) you have a guy that is going to dig through books unless he has a sheet for everything he could summon, or just knows it from memory.


It may have been covered somewhere before, but think about what teleportation circle means in particular.

Okay the world is full of cranky archmages, that don't like being bothered with petty details like trade. Okay, got it. (Although you would think a couple would be intrigued with playing mogul).

But I think you could persuade at least one to make a Teleport Circle, and make it permanent.

So how much would a city pay for one? Even a one way one.

A lot, and I think a major city could meet some archmage's price.

Now other interested entities would be willing to pay for one. Wealthy individuals, rulers, trade groups.

Heck I'm quite sure they would sponsor and train someone EXPRESSLY so they could make one.

Right now it's in the rules. Right now so far as I know there is no official spell that lets you "hack" a Teleport effect (though I guess someone could research one, and Wish, Miracle, or even Limited Wish might let you do it).

So it is doable. All the handwaving and wringing of hands in the world won't make the rules say the City of Absalom couldn't make one, and have it go to Korvosa (and they are perfectly capable of financing one on the opposite end as well, assuming Korvosa didn't mind).

A cleric could make one with a scroll and Miracle for permanency, or just two scrolls from the magic shoppe.

Now people have done the math about how much you can move, etc.

Do you really think people don't exist who would pay almost any amount of money to have one?

Saying you can't buy one if you have enough money is more of a no go in this system, than saying every archmage is a misanthropic crank.

So they can exist. They should exist. The only reason you don't see them all over the place is the fact it ruins the flavor, as the person on page 1 said.

There is no other real reason. They should be all over the place. What Golarion has maybe 4000 years of civilization or so, at least in some places after the Starfall? There isn't an expiration date on Teleport Circles if they are permanent. You specifically have to destroy them.

So realistically they should be lots of places. And I mean lots. And all carefully guarded and treasured.

Whatever you think of the Tippyverse, he wasn't wrong about how Teleport Circles would change things, and most people don't care for that kind of setting. So it is just ignored. It'd be better to remove this from the list of spells that can be made permanent, but whatever.

Heck face it. All you need to make one is 9650 gp for a scroll of Teleport Circle, and 47,250 gp for a scroll of permanency (hmmm never noticed that as I read the rules there are different "strengths" of permanency, always just paid the component when cast).

So for about 60,000 you can set one up wherever, even without an archmage though it would be much cheaper with one.


Wow you have one of the very few elvish evoker wizards without orc and dragon blood.

Wonder how that happened?

And you need dazing spell. It is the new Natural Spell, but for evokers.


You know a greatclub would be great for a Wood Oracle.

Why that is a martial weapon I'll never understand.


Blackstorm wrote:
Remember to get scimitar or cutlass, then make it keen via arcane pool.

Okay I get why you want a good crit range. (Do cutlasses have the same as a scimitar?)

But if you are NOT going to Dervish Dance, wouldn't any weapon with a large crit range, like a rapier be just as good? I mean other than Dervish Dance what is the deal with 1h slashing weapons?


I'm not quite sure why but the devs seem to hate flying mounts.

There is one Paladin archetype (Empyreal?) that can get one pretty late.

There is a way to get a flying dinosaur (Pteranodon) if you are an orc or half-orc and have the animal companion feature.

Rangers can get one by being a Sable Company Marine from Korvosa.

Basically they bend over backwards to write the rules explicitly to disallow flying mounts, and as I said I have no idea why.

You can actually buy a flying mount though. We have a skill, Handle Animal, that appears to be explicitly designed to handle things like this.

Only problem is a purchased Griffin isn't a holy steed which is what I guess you want.

And the age old problem of mounts, durability shows up. Your Griffin is basically just going to die or be at death's door with one AE spell past level 10. They will pretty much auto fail any spell that attacks their will save too.

If you don't have the features to make them more durable you have a real problem.

You know I ought to write a Prestige Class that addresses these issues. It'll be a 4 level class designed to get someone a flying mount that uses the rules for familiars and is keyed off your CHARACTER level, with no need to take Boon Companion or whatever.

I don't know what kind of guidelines they have in mind for Prestige Classes, but this is a very common desire and very iconic.

It shouldn't be this hard to get one.


Andreww is correct about this spell.

Incidentally the idea about using it for Spell Perfection is brilliant. That just plain never occurred to me. Also the Preferred Spell feat. I had to look that up, had no idea there was a feat like that.

I will say something came to mind for me when reading this. Do spell like abilities "recharge" when you rest?

For example say you use Paragon Surge to get the 1st level Destined Bloodline heritage.

That's nice, but why assume the powers are immediately available for use? Seems to me you could make a case that you need to rest for the night to "charge" them, which is impossible with the duraion.

Or take an example of someone who has the first two Stormborn Sorcerer heritage feats, and uses Paragon Surge to get Ride the Lightning. Does this mean they should be able to use this effect every time they use Paragon Surge to get the 3rd feat?

Just saying Paragon Surge is a polymorph effect, but if you use it to take a feat... well what exactly does that mean anyway if you use it to get a spell like ability?


I dunno the historical roots of this idea.

I can say that stuff like leprechauns, little people, and fey are Celtic themes.

And it doesn't get more Celtic than druids. I guess that is it for the association, but as far as hating each other? First I've heard of that one.


Caedwyr wrote:
The world as per the spells and capabilities of characters/npcs does not match the world as typically presented by world builders. Any issues are generally glossed over with half-hearted justifications.

He put it the best. If fantasy were orange juice, the rules are giving us Tang.


She has a flying mount.

Eh, I guess she is a Sable Company Marine or that Empyreal/Celestial whatever Paladin, the one that can get a flying mount.

Honestly Mounted Fury might be the best representation of her though.


Interesting thread, but some things about this bug me.

Asmodeus acts in a vacuum?

What's going on has to be pretty obvious to the other gods. Asmodeus has a pretty direct line to the rulers of Cheliax. Now Taldor?

You would think if Asmodeus is sticking his fingers in Taldor, one of the other gods would mount an organized opposition. More than one actually.

And by that I mean more than a random collection of adventurers that just happens to be in the neighborhood. You'd expect high level clerics and other agents to be tasked with waging a covert war.


By the time we could do something like build a Dyson Sphere the nature of life, or at least intelligence is going to be something very different.

Barring the perspective of a vastly different kind of being seeing some utility in it, the need just won't be there.

There is a kind of problem with science fiction. They take something like the nature of trade in the age of sail and map that into interstellar trade for example.

But the amount of energy it take to change matter in a certain state to another is prohibitive. You might as well make it at the destination honestly.

By that I mean 1 kg on earth has a certain velocity and kinetic energy. I don't want to go too much into this, but bacically say we have a velocity of 40,000 m/s or something roughly in the direction of the Andromeda galaxy or something (yes, the earth rotates, and also around the sun, but our sun has a certain vector and that is the dominant portion).

Not only do you have to apply energy to go anywhere in a reasonable amount of time (barring hyperdrive or something), you will also have to apply energy so our hypothetical 1 kg of matter has the same state as a hypothetical planet around Sirius for example.

Just makes no sense. If you can traverse interstellar space, odds are you could make whatever you wanted on site, assuming you had the matter (and if you don't what are you doing there?), and the energy (hello Sirius or fusion or whatever).

Plus this doesn't consider the issue of a post singularity intelligence, it's nature, it's needs, and what it considers worth doing.

A Neanderthal might have felt handicapped if there were no flint handy. That doesn't mean much to us.

And I have no idea what an intelligence from the year 2525 might want or think. But I'm reasonably sure it won't be what I want.

Here is a snippet from a fascinating blog:

"Let me restate that important point. No matter what the technology, a sustained 2.3% energy growth rate would require us to produce as much energy as the entire sun within 1400 years. A word of warning: that power plant is going to run a little warm. Thermodynamics require that if we generated sun-comparable power on Earth, the surface of the Earth—being smaller than that of the sun—would have to be hotter than the surface of the sun! - See more at: http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/#sthash.i ZGPeJIo.dpuf"

Reality is going to be nothing like Star Trek, Ringworld, Known Space or anything anyone has come up with yet. If anyone came close it was Iain Banks, and I kind of think he limited things so he could write things people would read.


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Actually as I read some of these posts I was getting an Ultimates Scarlet Witch/Quicksilver vibe from the Tieflings. You know the original icky version of the two in that universe.


Ultron? No Thanos in the 2nd Avengers movie? What about that cameo at the end of the first one?

And Ultron with no Hank Pym introduced yet?

Hmmm if he is introed in a 2nd Avengers movie, I can't wait to see what special effects can do with "Giant-Man." (Guessing they won't go the Ant-Man route)


Major_Blackhart wrote:
In that way, in order to ascend you have to do something incredible (Nethys)

I'd like to know more about him, including what he did.

Garund must have been a happening place in the old days. We know Nex and Geb were around at the same time. Nethys is intimated to have once been king of Osirion.

Wonder where Jatembi fits on the timeline. That is a lot of uber mages running around one continent.


Antariuk wrote:


Elemental Focus - be careful with that. I almost took it and I'm glad I didn't but chose Elemental Spell instead (change energy type), since we had a couple of enemies by now who where utterly unimpressed by fire damage. I'd really go with versatility instead over-specialization, but that's just me.

Are you sure about that? I could almost swear that I read some thread on here, and even if you change the energy type, the other feats still apply.

For example if you had Elemental Focus fire, and substituted electricity for fire in a Fireball, it still benefited from the Elemental Focus:Fire.

And conversely if you changed Chain Lightning to use fire instead of electricity, the Elemental Focus:Fire wouldn't apply.

I could definitely be wrong about this, and it seems counterintuitive. But it just seems like I saw a discussion on this.


What is the rationale with potions versus elixirs, and Oils too I guess? Is it simply because one is lumped with Wondrous Items, and one with it's own category (Potions)? Because they sure seem similar.

Also I put this up yesterday in it's own thread, but not many people were interested in it.

There is a new sorcerer bloodline from Champions of Balance, and the third level power is this:

"Spontaneous Generation: At 3rd level, you gain Craft Wondrous Item as a bonus feat. In addition, when you craft a magic item (except a potion, a spell-trigger item, or a spell-completion item), you may ignore one spell prerequisite without increasing the creation DC. You can ignore an additional spell prerequisite at 9th, 15th, and 20th levels."

I was thinking I could use this to enable a Fighter for example to make a lot of his own gear, be independent of casters, and also take advantage of the built in x2 multiplier for magic items that casters get (since they can make their own).

But it takes 3 feats (Skill Focus:Engineer, Eldritch Heritage, and Improved Eldritch Heritage), and you have to have a 15 charisma to take Improved Eldritch Heritage for this power. Charisma is usually a dump stat for classes like Fighters that have lots of reasons to put points in different stats.

Then too, if you went that far, you'd be well served to take Master Crafsman as well.

Upon reflection, while you can do something with this, it is yet another feature that is probably better for a caster to take, particularly one with charisma as the casting stat.


Hmmmm I wonder how an Unbreakable Fighter would do. If I had Herogen I'd roll one up and see.


I was looking up something about sorcerers on the d20pfsrd, and saw there was a new bloodline, the Impossible bloodline (apparently from a new book, Champions of Balance).

This is the third level bloodline power from the Impossible bloodline.

"Spontaneous Generation: At 3rd level, you gain Craft Wondrous Item as a bonus feat. In addition, when you craft a magic item (except a potion, a spell-trigger item, or a spell-completion item), you may ignore one spell prerequisite without increasing the creation DC. You can ignore an additional spell prerequisite at 9th, 15th, and 20th levels."

Now at first glance, it looks useful for a certain kind of non-caster. One that gets a lot of feats, and can afford to sink three into getting the power from this heritage.

It would allow you to craft a number of items at cost, and level some of the effective wealth disparity with casters that can make their own stuff. Plus you wouldn't be so dependent on casters.

But ... I kind of think I am missing some possibilities here. Just seems like it has more possibilities than first glance brings to mind.


James Risner wrote:
Takhisis wrote:
animals can fulfill somatic components

No on animals.

Quote:
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type ... While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon.
Up to the GM on some magical beasts or plant creatures with hands and intelligence.

What does that mean exactly though? I get the material components thing, since I gather your material components pouch melds into your new form.

But the rest of it? Can elemental make somatic movements? There is some blurb stating they can elect to take a certain form, bipedal or whatnot as it strikes them. And elementals can talk.

What about plants? I think a Treant should (and can they wield weapons and use other equipment like wands and armor?). But what about an assassin vine? A tendriculous?

Some creatures explicitly say they can't talk. But how do you know if they can or can't? Sometimes it is not spelled out.

To take it a step further, Nagas are sorcerers, at least they cast like them. Okay, sorcerers get eschew materials and they can talk. They don't have hands or arms though.

I guess you could say they sway or make tail or tongue movements for the somatic components, but if you are allowing that, exactly what can't make somatic gestures?

And as regards Eschew Materials, what about if a Naga had some class levels and cast Stoneskin? No one would blink an eye at that, but how exactly is the diamond dust being handled? You can substitute other spells, because there are a number of spells with material components Eschew Materials doesn't cover due to cost.

If the rules are going to be this nitpicky, then the rule needs to be defined better.


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Marthkus wrote:
jhofack wrote:
Based on my exploration of the many threads, and the hatred that others reigned down upon the threads that i have posted it is obvious that the reason (or so it seems) that many of the people on here play is because they see it as a "battle of math"? Or so it seems. I feel many people forget that it is a Role Playing Game. Reminder this is all opinion. But i don't see how you can have a lot of fun when constantly running the numbers of how effective your character will be in every situation. Also i feel people rely to much on their spells, all that has to happen is for a wizard to lose the ability to cast and they are as good as dead, you have to have other classes, i feel other people do not realize that. Again all just opinion. Remember everyone RPG!! not Math Wars

I still want to see this rogue build you had fun with!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe it helps me visualize the character? If we didn't need any math, we would all still be playing "imagination time". Now fork over the math!

You sound like a stalker.

Or maybe a bot.

Some of us want to read these threads.

So maybe you can give it a rest?


I think "The Grognards," has a certain ring.

They drive the enemy crazy comparing them to foes they have faced in the past.


Is that spell still valid? I don't see it on the d20pfsrd list for clerics and oracles. According to that it is from a 2008 book.

Looks pretty darn good if it is. Ten minutes a level works great. An hour?

I could make floorplans when I woke up.


Depends I guess. I'd definitely take it if there were some spells I wanted in that level, and there was no other way to get them.

Even if I played a human, or other race that got the bonus spell.

An example is spell level 8. There are a lot of spells in that level I consider to be staples.

You will get one spell level 8 spell from your bloodline, and as a sorcerer you will eventually know 3.

But for me it is not enough.

I must have:

Polymorph any Object
Mind Blank (And I will cast it on myself every day, it is part of my religion)

Stuff I'd really like to have:

Protection from Spells
Greater Shadow Evocation
Moment of Prescience

And lots more I could see myself using a lot.

Not sure of the costs of the items that give you extra spells known when you get that high. And you could use staves. But even with the human bonus you can't know too many spells.

So yeah, I could see myself taking it. A few times actually.

Depends on your playstyle I guess. But it would be a heck of a feat to equal an 8th level spell. (Or two if you took the feat at 19th level)


I think that the PC should be assigned the task to seduce Arazni and talk her into returning to Lastwall for resurrection.

It might not be confined to that Tower, but you have to admit it would be epic.


Arcane Eye is really great. No one ever uses it though.

Clairaudience/Clairvoyance is great too, but not as much as Arcane Eye.

Only downer for these two spells are the long cast times.

But think about it.

You can get a caster to cast Arcane Eye, manifest it a mile in the air, and gaze at the surrounding terrain for miles around.

No matter what this system says about perception and distance, take it from me, things look pretty darn obvious from above. Heck trees and vegetation seem to provide little cover when you are looking from above.

Or you could just send one down all the twisty little passages in front of you in the dungeon for as long as the spell lasts.

Now as regards using stealth to scout ahead: Don't.

Stealth has never been fixed. If you use RAW, instead of your own system, it doesn't work.

At all.


You might as well throw Gloves of Dueling in there too. They are pretty much a class feature now, "Can Wear Gloves of Dueling."

I think you are missing the forest for the trees.

1) Okay not much to do outside of combat?

True, someone can fix this.

2) Does okay in combat now?

For the most part, yes. Paladins really outshine him against evil things. Barbarians can use strength surge to do maneuvers against Godzilla, and well they can spell sunder.

Fighters do at least as well as everyone else at melee, and they make about as good an archer as anyone else not smiting evil.

Of course then you also have to consider the casters that dabble in melee combat (Synthesists and whatnot). But for the sake of this argument let's not consider them.

3) Dealing with spells and magic in general.

This is the big one. The one that has to be addressed. The two classes that seem to be the cream of the non-caster classes have ways of dealing with magic.

Paladins have good will and save bonuses. They get charisma as a bonus on saves. They have lots of good reasons to pump charisma. Lay on hands can be a swift action on themselves, and they can remove a lot of debilitating conditions even if they fail a save, in addition to the hp's that give them a lot more effective hp's than a fighter.

Barbarians get bonuses to saves from Superstiton (face it, it is a class feature, just like beast totem and invulnerable rager), and fort and will bonuses from rage. If they fail a save they can get another from Eater of Magic, or if bad enough they can Spell Sunder whatever the problem is. This is guaranteed to work due to Strength Surge.

And they lose nothing because they are going to Rage Cycle (another class feature you get at 17, or other ways if you can't wait). Additionally they can actually do something about forcecages and other things that stymie other non-casters.

I think 3) is the issue that is the core of the problem.

Reading these boards, the new trend is to have a trick that always works, and basically tells the DM, "This always works, and there is nothing you can do about it."

And they are right. And if Rule 0 is invoked, well that is an immediate win for the "clever" player.

It really isn't that hard. Why they bothered to keep things like the Hold Person nerfs, then decide to add Dazing Spell is beyond me.

Then after seeing the trouble 3.0 had with pumping save dc's (spell power, if you remember that), all kinds of ways are added to pump spell dc's into the stratosphere (spell perfection) or make you save twice against save or dies (persistent spell).


I think one you can get in that first chapter of Serpent's Skull is magical and has an "extension" feature.


And what happened to sports?

It used to be that kids everywhere shot baskets and played around with a basketball.

The kids I see now, at least the suburban ones don't have the slightest idea of what to do. They can't dribble. Look hopelessly clumsy trying to shoot the ball. No idea of how to box out, or what it is. Can't judge an angle on a rebound.

I think I could take my old highschool crew, potguts and bypass surgeries and all, and school the kids I've seen puttering around in the driveway.

You just expect more game from a high school kid.

Oh well, an older generation than mine could have said the same things about baseball and my generation. Because we pretty much didn't play it.


Eirikrautha wrote:
Ta-da, info in seconds. With this ease of information acquisition has come a different way of thinking about the world. Modern education isn't about memorization or informational storage, it's about "critical thinking" (which is just a different way of saying "drawing conclusions"). So much of modern education is spent telling kids what information "means" without them having to acquire the knowledge in the first place. It has led to a generation that is used to being told what to think/do about almost everything around them. For all of the emphasis on "creativity" in western societies, this is the least creative generation in the past two hundred years, primarily because they know so little (you can't put disparate ideas together in your head to make something new if those two ideas aren't already in your head). I watch students every day just passively wait for the next instructions. No one, not even the bright kids, experiments with the material or tries to move forward on their own. It's just, "Tell me what to do next..."

I have to agree with this somewhat. If I thought about it a bit more I'm sure I'd agree with more of your argument.

I also think the internet makes you "dumber." I've noticed what it has done to me. I am not as smart as I was before I started spending a lot of each day on the net. And I'm pretty sure it is not just age. Deductive ability, ability to learn new things, short and long term memory have all suffered.

But besides being addictive it is such a useful tool...

I think of it as the "Library of Thoth" from the old Planescape setting. Particularly when I go to TV Tropes.

As regards some of the rest of what you have said...

Technology has made incredible strides. So someone is doing something.

We are all familiar with the Flynn effect. So where are the smart young kids that are smarter than ever? Most teenagers seem to be dumber than stumps to me. It's been quite a while and I can pick up an algebra or geometry book and run rings around them as it were. Plus they can't write or spell to save their lives.

And don't get me started on navigation. Take them somewhere. Do it five or ten times.

They still can't get there on their own.

Utterly helpless with mechanical things. Can't fix anything around the house unless you hold their hand.

If they are smarter, exactly what are they smarter at? Because I'm sure not getting it.

And yes, it used to be different. There was no particular inability in remembering how to get somewhere. Kids somehow absorbed how to change a tire, use a screwdriver, or paint a wall without anywhere explaining it over and over.

Okay, rant over. I just have strong feeling about this.

And get off my lawn.

All of you.


What is this fixation with "team?"

There have been a couple of entries that soloed the whole thing. Well one almost did them all. If she had been more diligent about scouring the druid spell list, and found some spell with the right features, and did the usual spell perfection/focus/persistent things, she probably could have one shotted the dragon.

I won't guarantee such a spell exists, but as the number of splatbooks rise, the probability approaches 1. And a spell that one shots dragons is probably useful in a lot of situations (flesh to stone, suffocate, etc). Heck Dazing alone would probably do it. Metamagic rods probably are good enough that she could get by without feats, except focus feats (realized spell perfection is level 15 or so).

But as regards a "team," if the individual members are capable of doing it solo, what other optimization do you need?

And what kind of team would be more powerful, what kind of teamwork are we talking about, that is better than a team composed of individuals that take powerful classes?

The builds I've seen are hardly useless in a great number of situations, it's not like they are useless for anything but these challenges.


Unless someone rules that the wings get in the way or something, when are you not going to have the wings out?

Why wouldn't you have them on all the time?


Cool shape. I like it the best myself.

It's been a while since I've looked at this, but one thing that bugged me was the only way I could increase the base speed was by adding legs.

I want a straight serpent, no stumpy little legs hanging off my eidolon (even if I pay for them with evolution points).

Don't know if the little things bug you like they do me, but talk with your dm about the appearance.

But you are right most people seem to favor the quadruped form, then the biped form is a little less popular.

Also I have no idea how high you can get the CMB for doing maneuvers. Since the eidolon can't take class levels you lose a few of the multi classing tricks that PC's that go this route take.

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