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I've read a lot of Morrison over the years.

I soured on him after a while. Final Crisis was the final straw, though it had been building for years.

Tastes differ, but my nerdrage... the memories of so many threads arguing about the guy... no takers when I tried to get them to explain exactly what the "meta" genius was.

But when he is on, he's on. The Captain Marvel Superman encountered in that Final Crisis one shot, was a "true" Captain Marvel.

Just saying I'm not surprised. I pretty much dropped DC a few months ago, except for any appearance of the Legion.

I'll have to pick this up. I honestly had no idea it had finally happened, I mean it's only been what... five years?


"In fact, the druid would go on to repeatedly attempt and fail to convince the vile crone to birth him an army of hagborn child soldiers."

I got nothin' on this.

However I can honestly say I do not want to party with that cowboy (Stragh).

So right now the party is:

Balragh - Half-Orc - Witch Doctor (Scarred Witch Doctor? The one that uses Stamina for everything?)

Zuriel - Was Aasimar but is now a Half-Orc (how is that going to work?) - Paladin

(Archer, but that doesn't necessarily mean the archetype. I looked into that once and my personal conclusion was base Paladin was a better archer than that archetype. Too many weird abilities to give archery abilities to party members, which is just kind of ... useless. If they are already archers they have these abilities already, if they aren't they aren't going to drop their usual schtick to use bows. Plus you give up some good things for this archetype)

Telkar - race unknown - Sylvan Bloodline Sorcerer (guess he is Sylvan with the animal companion)

Stragh - deviant Half-Orc - Wolf Shaman


thejeff wrote:
I find this amusing, considering the usual complaint that "Superman is boring cause of his powers, that's why Batman is so much more popular!"

I've never heard that about Superman. I have heard that they dialed his power up to not 11, but close to 100, which made him kind of boring.

It's a separate topic, but silver age planet moving Superman was kind of extreme. And yet plot wise he was always at the mercy of any yahoo who walked up to him with a lead box and lifted the lid to reveal...

Kryptonite!

Never mind that Superman could scan his surrounding for hundreds of miles a few times every second, looking for odd sized voids in his vision, like opaque things the size of ... boxes.

And it's not like he couldn't do that without missing a blink fighting Atomic Skull, reading the news, or whatever.

The guy could time travel without any equipment for god's sakes. Fly to Andromeda and be back before lunch. And take care of an alien invasion. All that and be back in time to meet Jimmy for coffee at the canteen.


drumlord wrote:


A Sea Singer bard, choosing a monkey familiar at second level, with a focus on using a rapier and a whip, taking the appropriate trait/feats to be able to use the whip to zip around difficult distances and gaps on ships. Also, being able to disarm somebody at high levels and throw their weapon 15 ft. away (possibly over the side of a ship) is pretty cool.

How would that work exactly? There are a ton of books now, and I'm not sure I know what you are talking about, but it sounds interesting.


Matthew Morris wrote:


I'm surprised to see you admit that Sam can't support his own book.

That is one of the problems with comics these days I think. Or maybe it is not a problem, just the way things are.

To explain what I mean by that, Sam Wilson as the Falcon... flies. That's about it. He also has a bond of sorts with his falcon (hence the name, and his original gimmick as a character besides being black and Cap's partner in the late 60's/early 70's).

That partnership worked pretty well for storytelling, just as the Green Arrow/Green Lantern one at DC did.

Now we have talked a little about the character. So why can't he support a book?

Rather than race I think it is because the character and his whole... angle is inherently boring to comic readers today.

They just don't care if the character can fly (which he has only been doing since the late 70's or something anyway). It's kind of expected. And they have less than zero interest in a telepathic bond with a bird or whatever it is.

A month or two ago there was a thread here about the Atom and Ryan Choi. The Atom has the same problem. He is just plain boring in a book. Someone who shrinks just doesn't have a wow factor anymore. All the stuff about controlling your mass just doesn't make the original premise any sexier.

Also I want to add that "mundane" characters like Batman and Captain America are almost aberrations now. Most readers prefer cosmic power like Superman, or great power to just plain elite normal humans like Bruce Wayne and comic book (non-Ultimate Cap, who was actually the power template for movie Cap, not 616 Steve Rogers).

You have to have a ton of history like both of those characters to keep fans reading them now. And a ton of company investment.

So no I don't think the Falcon or any character relatively mundane can support a book now. Look at all the trouble DC has had keeping Green Arrow and Hawkman going. I've lost track of all the restarts and tweaks.

What bugs me about this whole thing is it is cheap. They really don't have many "normal" characters that can stay in print, so they can't think of anything to do with Sam Wilson other than stick him into the same role Steve Rogers usually holds.

Besides being miffed at replacing Steve, I kind of think this highlights in a way some trends and issues with the comic industry as I've said.

Every few years someone does something like The Spirit, The Phantom, even Doc Savage. Usually it is some small volume house, the critics and stuff like Wizard like it, it gets talked about on boards, then it sells a small fraction of what Superman sells.

It peters out, till someone starts the cycle again.


Jiggy wrote:

Augury is simply one of the myriad game elements that completely falls apart when the GM decides ahead of time which things the PCs will and will not know. See also: Perception, Sense Motive, divination, and Knowledge skills.

You can tell your GM is telling his own story and you're just the audience when:
• Perception DCs on traps are 1 higher than the searcher's T20 result
• The only creatures who lie about anything important are things like succubi or other demons with unbeatable bluff skills
Augury and similar spells never give helpful information
• Knowledge skills get a per-round limit or an action cost, or are only allowed to ID things that you've personally seen previously in this same campaign
• Anything that would change the type of "feel" a given scene has or makes things play out differently than the GM expected (like bypassing an obstacle, not getting caught, pre-buffing with effects that actually matter, or using a tactic that makes a fight easier than anticipated) is labeled "game-breaking", "unbalancing", or other derogatory terms.

It has to be that way sometimes though. You've never spent a bunch of time making something, then had that creepy feeling when you realize one ability or check can make the whole thing fall apart? And you have nothing else to go with?

Maybe most of you guys are geniuses, and have contingencies for everything. Or you can make it all up on the fly, whenever. Or maybe just always see the plot hole or what might happen.

But it is usually a struggle for me to come up with something appropriate for any session.

Just the way it is in my book. Sometimes you are on a railroad because there aren't any good options, or any good ideas for where to take things don't pop into your head in a hurry.


I think this is one of those artifact things from pre-3.x.

In the old days there weren't spells like the conjuration school that ignored magic resistance.

So something like this would never affect a golem.

But when they made 3.x they started by having golems be like they always were, then they arbitrarily started having spells like Acid Arrow ignore spell resistance. And with each splatbook the spells started snowballing.

It also didn't help that saving throws for most things in general were nerfed, and the ability to enhance dc's of spells got thrown into the game.

This is just another one in a long line of faulty assumptions and designs in 3.x that were carried over to Pathfinder and never thought through.


Oh well, we get to see new characters at least. Not sure there is much you guys haven't touched yet in this thread though.


It might be considered universe shattering.

But I'd like the teleportion power as someone already suggested. But I want it without limits.

Across the universe. To other dimensions. To different times.

Basically if I want to do lunch after fighting dinosaurs, I go to fin de siecle Paris. Later I'm going to pop over to Barsoom to say hi to John and Deja (it's all real somewhere).

Absolutely no limits. I can go anywhere, any time. And what the heck I want to be able to take people with me too.


Call Item:

"You call a piece of nonmagical equipment worth 10 gp or less 'from thin air' into your waiting hand. (Actually, it is a real item hailing from some other random location in space and time.) You don't have to see or know of the item to call it—in fact, you can't ever call a specific item. You just specify the kind (silk rope, basket, torch, or some other item). This power cannot call weapons, armor, psionic items, masterwork items, living creatures, or valuable treasures (see Table 7-8 in the Player's Handbook for typical items called by this power). The item is made of ordinary materials appropriate for its kind. Using called items as spell components causes the spell to fail. If you relinquish your grip on the item you called for 2 or more consecutive rounds, it automatically returns to wherever it originally came from. Items gained by call item are distinctive due to their astral glimmer."

I totally want to do this for my toilet paper needs.


Matthew Koelbl wrote:


It was a cool scene, sure - but if Barry can do that, how does he ever lose any fight? It is the inevitable problem with characters with super-speed - it should be an 'I win' button for almost any fight, but that isn't very interesting to see. So how fast the character can move changes wildly from one moment to the next.

How fast can Barry go?

As fast as required for the drama of the moment.

You've hit a nail on the head, and it goes way back with this character and others with super speed (not to mention other powers).

Look Captain Cold, Heat Wave, neither of them are a threat to the Flash if they actually used his powers the way they could be. Before Captain Cold could depress the trigger on that cold gun he would find it is no longer in his hand, when he blinks he finds himself naked in a holding cell in the Central City police department.

Barry can literally stroll around with everyone standing still like a statue to ponder his next move. As you say they are inconsistent, but Barry could watch a bullet coming out a gun in slow motion then walk over and squint to see where the bullet will land.

Of course they also don't cover things like people breaking bones and necks because Barry lugs them around at super speed.

Super speed is a game breaker, but writers tend to blind spot it so they can actually have a story.


This episode disappointed me in a lot of ways.

1) Barry absolutely, positively should not have revealed his identity to the metal guy in the lockup. What was going through his head? And what was going through everyone else's head not to say "Barry you idiot! What are you doing?" Instead it was attaboy.

They must think their jail cells are unescapable. Me I look at them and smell "Prison Break." Right now the Mist and this guy are down there.

2) Okay, you generate enough kinetic energy, blah blah. I get it. But what kept him from breaking his hand even worse than before when he hit the guy?

Real science never has been the strongpoint of this character, because regardless of whether anyone can to metal hitting anything with a punch going at at super speed ... well you are going to break your hand a lot, because it has lots of ... kinetic energy.


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I wouldn't mind seeing Android ported onto desktop systems. Really you could do the same with Linux, but Android has so many phone and tablet users.

What made Windows big (the fact that end users only want to deal with one OS) could kill it as well.

Just depends on how things play out. But I think it would be a positive thing to have the basic OS people use to be out of the hands of a single company.


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Actually I'm pretty sure they all go to an island in the frozen north somewhere.

Then one day an elf and a reindeer with a glowing nose show up...


And just for the heck of it, here is a link to the cover of the last issue of the Marvel Family, the last appearance of the characters till DC did one of a number of reboots in the early 70's:

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Marvel_Family_Vol_1_89

I like the way the writers and artists chose to go out. Kind of a ghost in the machine kind of thing.


Yeah, I read that redo of the Monster Society. The biggest problem I had with it was that it was pretty definitely in the camp that Captain Marvel was a different person, or at least personality than Billy Batson.

That seems like hair splitting, but that question has been around as long as the character. Sometimes it is like Billy Batson is in an adult's body, other times it is more like they are two different people.

Curiously there was never any argument about Mary Batson and Freddy Freeman. Both were pretty clearly the same person in new bodies.

For me to really like a comic it does absolutely have to have a supporting cast. I really think of the enemies as part of the cast honestly. You kind of have to have a world around the character.

To me the classic Superman is the 1960's version. You had kryptonite, Krypto, Kara Zor-El (Linda Lee), Lex Luthor, Brainiac, Batman at times, the Justice League, Lois Lane, Perry White, the Daily Planet, Lori Lemaris, the Legion of Super Heroes, the bottle city of Kandor, Lana Lang still around some, Jimmy Olsen... god Jimmy Olsen is his own book. A shame you can't have a character like that in the modern era.

Maybe kind of camp and juvenile but it was such a rich world, and it has been mined and homaged a lot. I've always thought the biggest problem with Wonder Woman is that she never really had that. And she's been retconned and rebooted so many times it is hard to say what is associated with her world.

But yeah, Captain Marvel, at least the version I like is a very lighthearted kind of thing. He doesn't belong with the likes of the Killing Joke, Arkham Asylum, or any of this mega serious totally dark stuff.

Basically if any hero uses the word "Blood" or "War" in his name Captain Marvel doesn't belong there.


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Geez. I'm not the one you addressed, but I'll answer your question. Well with what I think about it.

People say "Shazam," and they have no idea why they say it or where it comes from. Captain Marvel is iconic, just like Batman, Superman, Spider Man, Captain America, the Hulk, Wonder Woman...

The character still has the record for most sales per month (was close to 5 million issues if you added up all the titles he appeared in).

To be honest, Captain Marvel was probably a more popular character than Superman from some time in the 40's to the time the Marvel Family was cease and desisted. It's been a long time but you can google up the legal antics from the 50's. I think knowledgeable people think in retrospect Fawcett could have won a legal battle against DC, but elected not to fight it out.

Now Captain Marvel has a "world" and peeps just like Superman. The wizard Shazam, Uncle Dudley, the Lieutenant Marvels, Tawky Tawny, Captain Marvel Jr (he who Elvis styled his hair after), Mary Marvel, whoever the guy at WHIZ radio was, and a whole lot more. He kind of had some accoutrements like the magic subway train, the Rock of Eternity, the statues of the Seven Deadly Enemies of Man, probably more that didn't stick in my memory.

Captain Marvel's enemies are great, at LEAST as good as Batman's or Flash's, and probably better in total than what Superman had. Doctor Sivana (as Grant Morrison noted he is the template for all other mad scientists), Kull, IBAC, Mister Atom, Black Adam, Mr. Mind, Captain Nazi, give me a while and I'll think of some more.

Now I'd like to state that most of what I am talking about is the original Fawcett run of the Captain, before the publication stoppage.

It's not my theory (though I believe it), but Captain Marvel the original one, just doesn't translate to the modern era. Too much humor, too much goofiness, he had things like Hoppy the Marvel Bunny for pete's sakes.

Attempts to reimagine him in the modern day usually don't really work. If you read the original Fawcett version (DC has or had some hardcover reprints), then read something like Geoff Johns' version of the character you are really put off. Or at least I was.

But the guy is iconic. The gimmick (a kid who becomes a superpowerful champion, the "World's Mightiest Mortal") has been used a few times I know of: Prime, the 2nd incarnation of Mar-Vell in Marvel comics with Rick Jones and the Nega Bands (who says comic book writers don't have a sense of humor?).

Funny thing is that some of the creative guys still get the character. The version in the cartoons Brave and the Bold and Young Justice was well in the spirit of the original character.

In the end, all I can say is read the original stories (40's and early 50's) with an idea for appreciating them with a sensibility not confined to a particular era.

If you do that modern incarnations of the character really just don't seem like The Big Red Cheese, rather just some kind of variant Superman.


Mystic_Snowfang wrote:
high dex worshiper of arshea, maybe a swasbuckler. With empyreal obedience you add your charisma to your AC, and your dex. and with the right magical items, naked sexy person distracting the enemies.

Might be another way to do it. With all the bite attacks, tumor familiars drinking potions, vestigial arms loading guns, and whatnot I see in build on these boards, there might be a whole new take on why a naked person distracts people in combat.


Freehold DM wrote:
I loved Ryan Choi. I loved the sea that a super hero could have a new person take up the mantle without the horrid death of the predecessor. I loved the philosophy parts of the comic. I hated how one of the few Asian superheroes was treated by the "fans".

I have a few thoughts on this:

1) The Atom (the Ray Palmer version with the shrinking belt, as opposed to the Golden Age fighting midget) is pretty iconic.

But "he" hasn't been able to stay in print in a solo series since the 60's, when comic book reading is this country was still widespread, spinner racks were everywhere, and the exile to the specialty shops had yet to happen.

The Atom is kind of similar to Wonder Woman (though her sales have never been as bad). Iconic, everyone knows who the character is, no one particularly wants to buy it. Hawkman is kind of similar.

The "wow" button was a lot easier to push with earlier generations. Now people just don't get into a guy that... shrinks as opposed to moving planets, wielding the power cosmic, or having universal level plot protection (the Batgod).

Seems to me I can think of about 5 or 6 attempts at an Atom monthly. This isn't the first time the Atom's identity has been changed. They even made "Swords and Sorcery" Atom. That didn't sell either.

2) Philosophy in a comic book is niche. Real niche. The comic buying public is smaller as I have said, and yet the fraction of that public that digs philosophy is no larger than it ever was.

3) Why exactly do they have to change the race of a character to make it diverse? If you want to use a Chinese person, why pick on Ray Palmer's gig? You can't make a whole new character?

Maybe that is harder than it looks for DC though. Most of their new characters just don't sell.

It is exceedingly rare for a new character to survive publication, let alone remain popular. It ebbs and flow, but Wolverine is about the only "new" character I can think of (originating after 1970 or so) that has made it to the gold standard.

Ms. Marvel (She is called "Captain Marvel" now? Lame, Marvel needs to do the right thing and let that name go un-trademarked or whatever it is. There is only one Captain Marvel, and his nickname is "The Big Red Cheese.") and characters like Nova and She Hulk have runs for a couple of years, then they go back to limbo or background status.

4) Gail Simone. As nearly as I can tell, the only time I liked her writing was when she wrote Secret Six. She had a knack for the characters and her plots and dialogue fit them.

You can't stick her on just any title and get something that works. I can't imagine what she would do with Fantastic Four or Batman.

Just for fun, imagine her writing Green Lantern.

5) Want to make the Atom work? Or at least be interesting? Find someway to blackmail Alan Moore and get him to sign on to do it for a year or two.

Only thing is only God or Cthulhu would know what you would get.

It would be interesting, but heaven help who tried to follow him on that book.


I would make the Rogue a full bab class.

Then I would make it such that a rogue can take any feat with a talent, none of this once (combat trick) stuff. (as a sidenote I'd also let the fighter take any feat with his selections, plus I'd give them a feat every level).

I would also have traits that gave actual swim and climb speeds.

Also would redo a lot of the talents that have limited use per day. I'd probably make them unlimited in some cases, or once per encounter.


The Dragon wrote:


I'm currently wondering whether reacting to bait in order to state that you are aware that it's bait and aren't going to fall for it constitutes failure to properly deal with bait.

S**! just got meta.

Before you start saying things like that, why don't you read over the optimization threads. I suggested the beastmass threads.

When you've done that, then let's talk.


But this isn't old school.

The ideal is to find unbeatable combos, such that if you win initiative it is an auto win. Literally the goal is to for the opponent to never even have the chance to react. Or to be blunt know what hit them.

And the dm has to cheat or break the rules to say otherwise. That is what gamemastery is, don't you know?

As to how you do this, shrug. It's all over these boards. Do a search for the beastmass threads, those are pretty good.

You might say that is extreme, but look at the optimization threads. There really is no alternative but for it to be rocket tag.


Hmmm, what size would a halfling synthesist be at level one with the eidolon manifested?


You need some Brachiation, and you need it bad.

As far as I know though, there isn't a way to get that movement mode?

Also need a climb speed.

My Tarzan is noted for swinging around on vines.


No spell casting? That eliminates Paladins right there.

Not sure of what archetypes out there nix spellcasting, but taking you at your stated desire, I'd say:

The cookie cutter Invulnerable Rager/Superstitious/Beast Totem is the best class in the game.

I don't have every book, and haven't seen or played a lot of these archetypes like Slayers and Brawlers.

But with what I have seen if you totally disallow any kind of caster, Zen Archers are about it to contest the Barbarian.


I've read this thread, but it is pretty long and it is easy to miss stuff in these long ones.

I have a couple of questions.

1) Does "Finally, for the purposes of these feats, the warpriest can select feats that have a minimum number of fighter levels as a prerequisite, treating his warpriest level as his fighter level." mean that a warpriest could take Greater Weapon Focus, and the Weapon Specialization feats?

2) No one really has a way to leverage Sacred Weapon? The enhanced damage seems like it would be tailor made to do something nifty with low damage weapons like whips (that have a lot of other features) but crappy damage.

This would include things like daggers or kukris if you are dual wielding.

I suspect that two handed weapons would still pretty much outdo two weapon fighting, but a warpriest actually could afford to spend a lot of feats on this, and make the weapons hit hard.

The whip has so many other features, that it seems like a very interesting weapon to use for this.

Incidentally would the air blessing let you avoid attacks of opportunity wielding a whip?

Also might Sacred Weapon even be of interest with things like darts, javelins, and sling bullets? Heck, couldn't you designate "rock" as your sacred weapon?


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If Batman doesn't work in to this show, I don't get the appeal of the whole thing.

The demographic of people that watch Law and Order and these other procedural shows is probably not the demo watching Gotham.

If I am representative of the target audience, we are going to get real bored of this procedural stuff pretty quickly.

What is this show without Batman? Gritty violence and drama with a cartoonish twist? How long is anyone going to follow a Nygma who never riddles? A Penguin without trick umbrellas?

Maybe comics and Batman give different things to different people. But run of the mill crime bosses like we have seen so far (Maroni, Falcone, Mooney) don't pay the rent in Gotham. Nor do the hitmen types we have seen so far (whoever the black guy was, Victor Szasz, any of the others). Those just aren't the kind of antagonists I personally am interested in. When I was a kid I collected Spider-Man, and I hated, just hated issues with nothing but the Kingpin, Hammerhead, or any of the other "mundanes."

Without the villains going over the top, without Batman and his collection of stuff, you've got just another cop show. Maybe the sensibilities are a little more four-color, but in the end it is just guys with badges and guns running around a generic city.

I think the Nerd audience is going to get bored, and the kinds of folks that normally watch that kind of show will never tune in.

Maybe I'm wrong, what keeps me watching right now is seeing what happens with Penguin, what Nygma does, the odd name drop, and seeing who else shows up. I'm quite positive I'm not going to keep that up for four or five years or whatever would satisfy the makers of this show. I kind of doubt I'll keep it up a whole season.

In retrospect this past episode was a little disappointing. For god's sake, we had a "retcon" with Penguin and Falcone.

Then there is the fact that the Mayor now knows Gordon is willing and wants to arrest him. That has to be a little awkward. Even without killing him, there are all kinds of ways to get a guy like Gordon drummed off the force, since as presented every politician in Gotham is owned by someone. Who exactly would stick their neck out, or go out of their way to defend Gordon or pull strings if he was stuck with a sexual harassment charge or something and fired? It might be ludicrous to anyone that knows Gordon, but you can manufacture and spin anything if you want, and the papers and media will eat what is in front of them.

I kind of think this show is overusing Penguin so far. Even with the way they are using him, it would be a stretch if he could get Gordon out of something like that.


I just wanted to add, that I like looking at maps and saying what if.

Just thinking about things as presented, with the information they have put out, I actually think Quadira and Taldor going to war would be kind of a world war kind of thing.

Quadira, or more properly the Kelesh empire if the empire proper got involved, could send LOTS against Taldor. It would take them more than one year to move all that stuff into Quadira, the Kelesh empire is huge.

But if that happened, I can easily imagine a weird coalition of Taldor, Andoran, Cheliax, even Absalom and Osirion stepping in. I don't think anyone wants that particular genie to come out of the bottle in the Inner Sea area.

Be a very interesting campaign if someone did it.


I've seen this kind of question before.

I think the biggest conflict point (as far as scale) is a possible Quadira/Taldor war. Though if Quadira was really vested in it, they have way too much power for that one to last a long time.

A lesser one, but still would be very big, would be Andoran/Cheliax.

Another possible lesser one is either Irrisen and one or both of the Mammoth Lords and Linnorm Kings going at it.

You could get a "hot" guerrilla war in Sargava throwing off colonialism.

Geb and Nex, well Nex at least, seem too... absorbed to get into a conflict.

As others have mentioned Nirmathas and Molthune cold easily have a conflict. As written like they have a multi-generational low scale conflict going up, that get more intense at times.

Then there is Galt. I just know there is a short dude somewhere in Galt. He's just a corporal now, but just you wait.


Aside from Gordon appearing to be indestructible I liked it.

But I have watched every episode so far. I think a problem with this series is the fact that Batman isn't really in it.

Without him and the crew from Arkham kicking it up, this is just a far fetched police show.

The idea is interesting, and the characters are interesting. But I'd say Bruce is about a decade away from being Batman. No way this show lasts that long.

What happens? Do we get Mr. Freeze, Riddler, and the rest going around Gotham committing crimes with the GCPD unable to get a handle on things?

If I were doing this show, I think I would skip five years ahead for season two, then in season three skip five more and have the Dark Knight emerge. They might possibly be able to keep it going for two years without Batman.

Come to think of it, I might just skip ten years for season two, and have that be Batman:Year One.

I really think this would be a cool show with all the personalities, if Batman was actually in the show now. He might be the center of the whole thing (the glue that attracts and holds all the nutcases together), but it would be an interesting take if he were in the show, and we still had a lot of focus on the GCPD characters, and especially the villains.


I don't know if this is any kind of input for you at all honestly, but I would have done it totally different if I were trying to do this.

I'd use a Lore Warden fighter, or a Ranger, and take feats for the fey bloodline.

Gold dragons (or any dragon really) just don't seem very fey to me.

As you said you could probably do something with the Bloodrager, but you aren't interested in that.


"Handle Animal +10 (+12 vs. Pumpkin while worn)"

Is Pumpkin your companion? And if so, is Pumpkin a ferret?


Actually that is a really cool background. I'm not keen on the word "Generic" but "Fighter 203" has a kind of ring to it.


Dunno. If it were it would make a huge difference for the White Haired Witch.


I've had a lot of thoughts about what direction things are going in, regardless of any particular gaming company.

I really think things have to go to a simplified kind of system, at least as regards all these spells and effects, and the wonky super complicated (or at least extensive) combat system. Too many attacks of opportunity, CMD/CMB, etc.

It takes too long to do anything, too long to prep things if you make your own stuff if you get past about level 5 or so.

It's got to change.

However I think there is a contradiction of sorts. Pathfinder to me is most interesting before the game, with the kinds of characters you can make. They are so cool and interesting.

Then you actually play them, and the whole thing is like slogging through mud.

Some people like Exalted and whatnot, things that are even more detailed and take longer to do anything.

But I have to think there are a lot more people like me that are sick of the whole thing, and want the flow to go back to pre-3.x.

If you actually take the time to play an older version, 1e, BECMI, something like that you will be amazed at how much faster things go.

And how much more enjoyable combats are when they don't take 2 hours to get through a couple of rounds. (yeah that is a fairly common kind of thing past level... 8 maybe?) I would have mentioned 2e as well, but I wasn't playing the whole time that was out. I imagine it was quicker, but I do not know for sure.


Why don't you go old school? A single name, then some kind of descriptive title.

Bondor the Hurler.
Epoch the Endurer
Speedo the Thong

Or use something based on where you are from, like the all-time best D&D name, "Beek Gwenders of Croodle." That name just leaps into the imagination, I mean is he a "Croodleman?" Is Croodle some kind of emotional state? Croodle the name of his village? What?


Well most campaigns never get there, but if you are a 20th level Arcane Bloodline Sorcerer you can use the capstone:

"Arcane Apotheosis (Ex): At 20th level, your body surges with arcane power. You can add any metamagic feats that you know to your spells without increasing their casting time, although you must still expend higher-level spell slots. Whenever you use magic items that require charges, you can instead expend spell slots to power the item. For every three levels of spell slots that you expend, you consume one less charge when using a magic item that expends charges."

If I understand this correctly, you could power a Staff with Wish in it using only 3rd and higher level spells.


This makes me think it would be a good time to pull out "Ye Auld All Yer Items Have Been Taken From Yeez," but...

Even at level 4 caster classes are merely inconvenienced by that, whereas melee classes are handicapped.

Still it might be fun for a lark, you know a Fighter making a club. (No freaking way would I enforce these crafting rules. He might have to sand here and there, and shape it a little but even without ranks in woodworking or whatever you could have a functional club or greatclub in a few hours. Crude spear and sling too.)

This might not be what you had in mind but it is just a thought.


DocShock wrote:
Ive never played through Reign of Winter, so this will be non-campaign specific. Change your curse or mystery, buddy. I know the two seem like a perfect match in terms of flavor but they overlap a bunch in terms of mechanics. You're getting burning hands and wall of fire twice, which is a bummer. If you like fire, take blackened, but swap out for another mystery. If your sorcerer is also a blaster, consider changing out for something with more utility spells. I'm a big fan of nature and stone mysteries in a party like yours.

It's been a while since I looked at this, but I think you can retrain spells you get twice for something else on the Oracle list. I can't remember where it is, think it might be in the retraining entry as opposed to directly in the Oracle material.

That said haunted might be a better option if you want a curse with extra spells known.


Drone wrote:
There's not really much you can do to control it except boosting your Con score to resist the changes. Curses are meant to be detrimental, not give characters new superpowers.

That's one kind of story.

But there is another one where it does give you superpowers.

And the curse story is inherently duller than the one where you are bitten by a radioactive spider.


I don't know if it an edition wars thing, but I am very interested in 5e.

The reason is my favorite version of the game is the Rules Codex/BECMI version. I am sick and tired of combats taking so long, of so much prep time to run something, of so many different spells, fiddly bits like CMD and CMB, attacks of opportunity, I could go on and on.

I want to be able to make up something by pulling it from my rear end as we play. I want to be able to actually make up a session in a couple of hours, and yes 3.x/Pathfinder takes me a lot longer than that when you get to higher levels.

I'm tired of the christmas tree and all the items.

Look 3.x/Pathfinder is a pleasure to make characters in. But in the end you have to play them. And less and less as time goes on do I want to do this, the prep time and the actual gameplay.

Maybe Herolabs is the way to go with doing this. Maybe. But I'd rather have a system where I didn't need to.

Just like it used to be.

Some guy is going to go on about how the math isn't that hard. That guy would be right. But I am sick of having to do all this addition and subtraction and forgetting about such and such getting dispelled as you go.

I'm ready for something else. I have no idea how many of us there are out there, or what Paizo has coming out. (Pathfinder Unchained?)

I really have no idea if 5e is what I am looking for. I have downloaded the pdf things, it looks ok but it doesn't grab you from the beginning.

It is possible that actually playing it, would make me a convert.

I will say that 8 people is probably the ideal size to actually make the game (assuming artists aren't in that number). I have a feeling though that it hasn't been thoroughly playtested. If there is some 5.5e coming out in a year or two I won't be happy.

I really need to buy the Player's Handbook and check out the spells. That is usually the source of a lot of the problems with any of these D&D systems.


Thelemic_Noun wrote:


I think it's reasonable to say that you can't make an ice sculpture of something if you have no idea what it looks like, any more than you can forge someone's handwriting with Linguistics if you've never seen their handwriting.

Maybe so. Maybe you have made the world's worst image of Bob, the evil Emperor. But nothing in the spell says it won't work. ANd nothing says that it has to be a perfect copy of Bob to have Bob's... Bobness.

Thelemic_Noun wrote:

Nowhere does the spell say the simulacrum has the memories specific to the original individual. It can fill in things tied directly to an ability score or character class by the game rules, such as spellcasting, attacking with a natural or manufactured weapon, weapon proficiency, and so on, but at its core, it's really just a hunk of ice with a complex shadow illusion giving it the semblance of life.

Also, a simulacrum of a single 6 HD creature blows through just as much cash as a limited wish, as does healing a mere 15 hit points.

This is the very first edition of the game that didn't require you to have a piece of the subject to have a simulacrum of.

And while without poring through a bunch of 1e and 2e modules, I am very sure that Simulacrum has always given you the memories of the subject in question. I can tell you that I have never been in a game in any edition where the simulacra did not have these memories.

Actually I have always assumed the intended use of this spell, or at least the big inspiration for it was to be able to make a double of someone and have that double take it's place. It'd do a bad job without the memories.

See what you have here is a house rule. A perfectly reasonable one, but I don't think it has ever worked the way you indicate.

As far as the healing goes, no one heals them. They just make another.

sunbeam wrote:
This big ruined underground temple/dungeon complex is kind of big and has lots of hidden passages. Make a simulacrum of the guy that built it. Then have him give you the tour.
Thelemic_Noun wrote:

Assuming we're not talking about a transmuter's personal lair, you can't even unambiguously identify "the guy that built it", because multiple people could fit that description, including the guy or guys who decided the structure needed to be built, the guy or guys who came up with the concept for the building, every architect that had a hand in its design, the supervisors that oversaw the construction, the foremen that oversaw the work crews, etc.

If you can't unambiguously identify the individual you wish to make a simulacrum of, it actually makes no logical sense for the spell to work. Imagine if a caster in the real world said "I'm going to create a simulacrum of the Roman Emperor." There are a ton of people that fit that qualification, which itself was...

I can't say you are wrong. But the RAW doesn't say you are right.

This is the very first edition of D&D that has not had the material requirement for making these things. This has literally never come up before.

Would you let me cast Vision, then make a Simulacra?

I cannot say you are wrong about what Paizo meant as RAI. Although I don't think Paizo spent a lot of time thinking about this spell. Ignoring the splatbooks (the many, many splatbooks), the spells were a direct cut and past of the srd. Some spells were adjusted to make it more "balanced," others weren't touched. This spell evidently was changed by someone for whatever reason, they didn't like the material component whatever. Or maybe it was a total mistake somehow, someone hit delete without thinking about it? Although that isn't likely since the blurb reads the way it does.

So someone wanted it to work this way.

It would be nice if someone at Paizo would say exactly what this spell can do, and what they had in mind in the first place. But this thing has been FAQ'ed for a while now, and so far as I know it has not been addressed.

But the thing about the memories is a total house rule of yours, and isn't backed up by anything. I'm trying to think back to the old Gord the Rogue books, and the copy of the Drow Priestess. I think it was a Clone, not a Simulacra but I can't remember. And I'm not digging those things up now.


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Geez there are so many ways to keep this secret, so many items, so many spells. Some with duration limits like spells.

Heck if you made or acquired an item that enhanced disguise and put skill points in that you could do it as well (Eventually. One level of skill points dumped into it would be a good start).

If you are a wizard, face it, this isn't the oddest thing that could happen to you. Unless your family is just really against gnolls for some reason, I don't know why they would totally shun you (even if they did want to keep it on the downlow).

I like your idea about taking a ranger level and going eldritch knight. An ingame event happens, and changes the direction you are taking your character. Seems like a cool thing to me. Personally I wouldn't retrain, I'd just let things flow organically from then on.

And there are a number of ways you can fix this. One is that if and when you get to 15th level you can Polymorph Any Object yourself into... whatever really. If it is ever dispelled you just do it again.

If you are evil you can find a way to use Magic Jar to get yourself a new body. You might have to *cough take care of a loose end, but it is doable.


I think this is more about how two weapon fighting and sword and board (two weapon fighting in drag) are crappy.

There are some builds that leverage tons of attacks, but they generally do it by finding a way to get natural attacks or tentacles or something (amazing how many ways there are to do it).

I really can't recollect a straight two weapon fighter doing well in those dpr olympics or such, or seeing an interesting build using it.


You are taking half measures with this thing. The 5e solution seems like a good one.

The real issue with this spell, at least in regards to previous versions of the game, is the removal of the "piece" of the thing to make a simulacrum of.

Right now there are no limits.

Want to make a simulacrum of your BBEG and ask him questions? What stops you?

This big ruined underground temple/dungeon complex is kind of big and has lots of hidden passages. Make a simulacrum of the guy that built it. Then have him give you the tour.

I realize that you might say you have to have some familiarity with the creature, but let's look at the RAW text.

"Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level. You must make a Disguise check when you cast the spell to determine how good the likeness is. A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Perception check (opposed by the caster's Disguise check) or a DC 20 Sense Motive check."

No where does it say anything about being familiar with the creature. I've looked at this before, and it is not apparent that it stops you from making simulacra of things that might POSSIBLY exist.

Note that sentence: "You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level."

Okay I am at least a 13th level wizard. I am going to make a simulacra of a 15 hit die astral deva with 11 levels of cleric. If you the dm tell me I can't, then I can only imagine that this combo doesn't exist.

Anywhere. What are the odds?

I might add that that same sentence "You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level." may or may not affect your proposed fixes. Are there any 26 hit die advanced astral devas (forget about class levels)? If so, that isn't going to sting very much.

And why should any dm want to allow a spell that requires him to spend time adjudicating this thing for any creatable simulacra? I mean do I want to spend time puzzling over what exactly I have with a half hit die version of a 20th level Fighter who is the Emperor's bodyguard? As written this requires me to redo all his feats. Doable, but why do I want the workload? This game is full of fiddly bits that do nothing but slow up gameplay and turn high level encounters into multi-hour affairs. I want more?

What a half hit die Kaiju or Tarrasque is exactly?

This spell isn't worth the time it takes to save it. The 5e version sounds like a really good fix. Tieing it to a real creature and having to have a body part like in previous versions is not as good but it works.


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Orfamay Quest wrote:


IIRC from when we ran that particular module, it was hand-waved away as "sailors think drinking magically-created water is bad luck." Which at least has the advantage of being a believable GM backpedalling, given the number of other stupid nautical superstitions that are actually documented.

I wonder what their position would have been on magically created booze.


You can use Dispel Magic on items as well to make them non-magical long enough to destroy them.

Of course it may be attended and get the benefit of the wielder's saving throws, but items usually have pretty bad saves on their own.


Mortuum wrote:

Not sure how relevant this is to your topic, but there's a really spectacular build out there where you take two levels of white haired witch, two levels of cavalier with the order of the penitent and one level of anything else. At 5th level, you take the Final Embrace feat.

The effect of all this is you can use your hair to latch on to people and immediately make two grapple checks, one to grab hold of them and one to tie them up with a rope.

That sounds like a good tactic. But while I don't have the slightest idea what the Order of the Penitent is, or what book it comes from, what keeps the grapple viable as you level? You get +1 bab from 2 levels of Witch, and at most 3 from your other classes, then whatever you get from anything else as you go. Then you have int as your stat for attack and damage with the hair. Just not seeing how this should work as you level. You have to have some kind of kicker to make maneuvers viable as you level, because CMD goes up way faster than the bonuses you have to apply. Strength Surge, whatever a tetori has, Lore Warden bonus, shape change, something has to be the gimmick.

I mean a straight fighter with all feats and every stat increase to strength is not viable using maneuvers at level 20 unless he has some kind of gimmick from an item.

Maybe taking Magus so you have true strike on the spell list? Or a level or two of wizard or sorcerer than Eldritch Knight? Because you will need something like true strike and quickened true strike at that) to make maneuvers viable the longer you go.


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Has anyone tinkered with this? It is a pretty interesting idea, but it is mechanically awful, so much so I wonder why they did it the way they did. It is a pretty common and pretty valid argument to say the best White Haired Witch is a normal witch or a hexcrafter magus with the prehensile hair hex.

So far what I have come up with is to have caster level be the bab with attacks and maneuvers made with the hair, along with int being the bonus for attack and damage with it.

I'd also adjust the base reach of the hair to be 10 feet at level 1, meaning it would top out at 35 feet of reach if you ever made 20. I would add any blurb from the prehensile hair hex about the hair being usable as an extra hand to the archetype.

Also I never understood why the grapple attempts were changed from free to swift actions. Even though the hair can attack as if it were large for maneuver attempts, that is still not saying much. You really have to have a little more than that to make maneuvers practical as you level up.

What really gets me is what to do with the Rogue talents instead of hexes. That addition really makes no sense, so does anyone have an ideas? The hair is pretty good if my changes go in, but by no means would it be an even trade for full hex potential.


Liz Courts wrote:
Removed posts. Please do not link to sites hosting pirated material.

What sites? the only ones I know of are Archives of Nethys and d20pfsrd.

Are those what you are talking about?

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