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Kamilo Dann

spectrevk's page

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber. Pathfinder Society Member. 513 posts (580 including aliases). 3 reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 10 Pathfinder Society characters.


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NobodysHome wrote:

Because Captain Yesterday is a lazy fox? Rat? What are you this week, anyway?

linky

...and now that we're both here, I think it's time for the derailments to begin! Say, did you notice that bore?

EDIT: I just can't do that to some poor person I haven't even met. Yet...

Thanks!

And really, any thread derailment that doesn't involve Rogues being underpowered is more than welcome here :D


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Is there any official source that I can refer to, to confirm that?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Are there any official guidelines for ability score points when running an Adventure Path? The Pathfinder Society uses 20 points, and I've heard people suggest 15 for APs (the "standard" in the Core rulebook), but I've never seen any specific guidelines in any of the Adventure Path books.


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There has been some talk of "bloat" lately, but what about just plain power creep? Reading through the Advanced Class Guide, there are several situations where the new options appear to just be better than Core rulebook options. Setting the Hybrid Classes aside for a moment, let's take a look at the Counterfeit Mage archetype compared to a baseline Rogue:

- Magical Expertise does everything that Trapfinder does, *plus* it adds a bonus to UMD

- Signature Wand replaces the 4th level Rogue Talent with something that is objectively better than any of the basic Rogue talents.

- Wand Adept doesn't replace anything, and again adds a useful bonus to UMD.

It seems like this option is just flat-out better than the Core Rulebook Rogue.

Similarly, the Martial Master archetype seems objectively better than the baseline Fighter. In exchange for giving up a maximum of +4 to attack/damage and a crit buff, you gain the ability to re-write your feat loadout on the fly.


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thegreenteagamer wrote:

What would you say is the most fun class to play?

Overall?
At low levels?
At mid levels?
At high levels?

Oh, here's the kicker, why?

I ask this, 'cause I have been playing a wizard lately, and while manipulating the universe and whatnot is great stuff, the homework related to it is not. Because I don't want to hold the party up when my turn comes, when it's not my turn I'm pouring through half a dozen different books looking up how the next spell I am going to cast is going to affect, the stats of monsters I might summon, keeping a running track of those spells that are still going, etc. That aspect of it has not been fun at all.

Nobody likes to suck, so power is an issue, obviously, but I think there's more I haven't been considering lately.

Not tier-comparison, not broken vs fixed, none of that. What is fun to play?

There's a really fun Harrow-based prestige class in the Inner Sea World Guide (Harrower, I think?) that's a blast to play. You get all kinds of random buffs and stuff you can do, plus random improvements to your spells based on the cards.

It sounds though, like your problem is that you've got too much paperwork. Maybe you should try something a bit more straightforward, like a Magus or a Paladin.


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I'm a little surprised that nobody has recommended Reign of Winter - the game starts out in Southern Taldor, and they could easily be attending an academy there. The whole focus of the campaign is witches/dark fairy tales, which matches the tone of Harry Potter pretty well. There's even a "magical world meets mundane world" angle to the AP as you get sent to Earth (during WWI) to do battle with Rasputin.


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blackbloodtroll wrote:
Now, what happens when the Sacred Weapon is something like a Net, has yet to be answered.

Are there any deities in Golarion who have the Net as a favored weapon?


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EvilTwinSkippy wrote:
spectrevk wrote:

Seems like an easier solution would be to use a Scorpion Whip instead, though obviously Whip Mastery would still be useful to avoid the AoO.

I was mostly just curious; I think a Calistrian Warpriest would be kind of weird...giant platemail painted like a bee, throwing a whip around...

Errm, why painted like a bee? That's just silly.

Calistrian clergy wear black and yellow a lot.

Quote:


I think the Calistrian Warpriest works rather well. You already start with whip proficiency and Weapon Focus: Whip. A human warpriest could then add Weapon Finesse and Slashing Grace at level 1. Being a Dex-based character, you'd probably want to go a little lighter on the armour as well.

Whip Mastery is an easy grab at Level 3, and depending on your GM, you could probably just use a scorpion whip til then.

I suppose the ultimate permutation of this would be a DEX 20 Elf Calistrian Warpriest in studded leather armor with a whip and stiletto heels. The real challenge would be enduring the snickers and outright laughter at the gaming table, though ;)


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Seems like an easier solution would be to use a Scorpion Whip instead, though obviously Whip Mastery would still be useful to avoid the AoO.

I was mostly just curious; I think a Calistrian Warpriest would be kind of weird...giant platemail painted like a bee, throwing a whip around...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm a little confused about how the Warpriest's Sacred Weapon ability interacts with the special abilities of a specific weapon. For example, the whip. I understand that the Sacred Weapon abilities damage would overwrite the whip's regular damage, but the description for the whip says:

Quote:
A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher

Does this mean that a Warpriest of, say, Calistria, wielding his/her goddess' favored weapon, would deal 0 damage on each attack against an armored opponent? Or is Sacred Weapon presumed to replace that aspect of the whip's damage as well? Presumably the whip would still have its 15-foot reach and ability to hit any target within its range, right?


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gnoams wrote:
spectrevk wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
A Sacred Fist Warpriest is a good unarmored healer. You are unarmored, can heal enough in an emergency, and are actually useful when you need to do proactive buttkicking instead of being a reactive band aid.
Warpriests are many things, but "good healers" isn't one of them. They're secondary healers, like Inquisitors. Their primary role is melee; they lack the spell slots to keep a party alive for a full day of adventuring.

I don't think you should dismiss warpriest so quickly without actually taking a look at what they can do. They get fervor healing, which can also be used for channeling, additional uses scale off wisdom, no need for cha. Healing blessing empowers their cure spells. Shield other is only a second level spell lasting hours per level. Allowing you to take half your frontliners' damage and swift healing yourself with fervor helps with action economy. They may not make the best healer, but I think they could be a perfectly competent one with some interesting other abilities to make them a viable primary healer.

Witches have been mentioned before, but another upside of them is their familiar can deliver the healing spells for them. Having a flying familiar can let you get the heals to a party member who would have otherwise been out of your reach. The scar hex can be used to allow you to heal hex your party from up to a mile away (also to fortune or any other beneficial hexes). The cartomancer archetype lets you deliver touch spells at range, or the hair hex gives you reach, all good for healing people without having to put yourself in harm's way.

Good point; I'm already of the mind that Witches are perhaps the best (if we're going Paizo-only) unarmored healers, but using the familiar to deliver Cure spells is a good tactic, provided they'll be safe from AoOs. What do you think of my earlier question re: White Mages? It got buried by the Channeling argument:

Quote:

How can we go about making a White Mage Arcanist that works? The Hex Channeler kind of builds itself, since Witches already have access to so many healing options, but at low levels a White Mage Arcanist is dealing with very limited resources (low reservoir points, low spell slots) and is potentially stuck without much to do as a backup when they aren't healing.

Idea 1: Invest in INT and CHA to keep save DCs reasonable, be a Human, and pick up Extra Reservoir and Extra Exploit feats to pick up Flame Arc at level 1 along with the White Mage exploit. This leaves you with six reservoir points, 3 1st level spell slots, and two prepared 1st level spells. That means that even if you use all 3 slots for CLW, you still have 3 reservoir points left to drop Flame Arcs. No attack roll needed, so low DEX won't be a factor, and you can provide AOE damage to the group, which is disproportionately awesome at low levels. AC will be hurt by the lower DEX, but on the bright side the higher CHA will let you make better use of Exploits like Arcane Barrier and Spell Disruption (am I crazy, or is suppressing enemy buffs crazy good?)


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Rynjin wrote:
spectrevk wrote:


And not to derail this thread even further to being about channeling vs spellcasting, but I wonder sometimes how many encounters per day people who dislike channeling tend to go through. PFS, for example, generally doesn't allow much (if any) time for resting, so you're having to go through 4+ level-appropriate combat encounters. At low to mid levels (PFS never goes above 12, generally) you need the additional healing from channeling just to function, in my experience.

Channel is even worse healing with a lot of encounters per day. Generally you'll have 4 or 5 Channels per day (a couple more on a Life Oracle instead of a Cleric), and then you're ought.

Considering the amount of HP you have to heal at many levels, you'll be lucky if you don't have to use half or more of those each time you end up needing healing.

That statement makes no sense at all. You're basically arguing that for a party having many encounters per day, they're better off *without* an additional source of healing. That's objectively untrue.

A cleric can cast healing spells, and also has channel healing. A non-Life Oracle or White Mage Arcanist has healing spells only. Put simply, without channeling, the sheer volume of hit points you can give back to people before you need to rest is less than it would be if you had channeling. Period.


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Deadbeat Doom wrote:

As far as Oracles go, I am currently playing a Half-Elf Oracle of Life with the Spirit Guide archetype (Life), the Elf FCB, Exalted of the Society, Extra Channel, Ritual of Possession, and a Periapt of Positive Channeling.

At 8th level, he channels 10d6 11/day, and 8d6 8/day. He also has Channeled Revival and Fateful Channel.

Healing has not been an issue so far.

Does your Oracle wear armor? This is a thread about unarmored healers.


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I don't think an average of 2HP/level comes even close to evening out a difference of 4+ AC. And bear in mind that compared to a Cleric, the Ecclesiturge is objectively worse defensively, as he has the same saves and HP, but less AC.


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What would be required for a high-level Wizard to become considered a new "Runelord"? Has there been any thought about an AP centered around this idea? I mean, we've started killing Runelords, so theoretically there are spots open.


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Cap. Darling wrote:
spectrevk wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
spectrevk wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
A Sacred Fist Warpriest is a good unarmored healer. You are unarmored, can heal enough in an emergency, and are actually useful when you need to do proactive buttkicking instead of being a reactive band aid.

Warpriests are many things, but "good healers" isn't one of them. They're secondary healers, like Inquisitors. Their primary role is melee; they lack the spell slots to keep a party alive for a full day of adventuring.

My point exactly. I feel a primary caster that focuses on healing alone is waste of resources. "Good healer" is an oxymoron, as in-combat healing is a reactive stop-gap measure that is only necessary when you use poor tactics, and even then if you are going to die without incombat healing, you are going to die with in-combat healing the following round.

If you only need a dedicated healer when tactics go poorly, then you have a very kind-hearted GM. That said, even a dedicated healer does more than just heal; Divine spellcasting offers a variety of buffs, undoes a lot of long-term suckage that monsters can drop on you (Restoration, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, etc.), and Clerics, at the very least, can provide a flanking partner in melee.

Getting back to the options I was looking at earlier in the thread, the White Mage Arcanist is still an Arcane spellcaster, and has access to the full Wizard/Sorcerer spell list, while a Hex Channeler has full access to a variety of useful debuffs via other Witch hexes. The Ecclesitheurge....well....that guy sucks. No armor, no way to really raise his AC, simple weapons only, and limited access to attack spells. He's pretty much a buff-only class that doesn't get enough to make up for what he's losing versus a regular Cleric, IMO.

I will not keep up the "channeling is not good thing" then we can agree to not agree.

But i must say i kind of like the Ecclesithurge. He is better of on the defense than the witch and the cleric...

Um...no he isn't. The cleric gets medium armor (~+6 armor without enchantment) plus Shield of Faith (+2), and the Witch gets the Mage Armor spell (+4 armor). The Ecclesitheurge gets Shield of Faith (+2) and that's it. Nothing else. He doesn't add Wisdom to AC like a Monk or Sacred Fist does.


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Imbicatus wrote:
spectrevk wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
A Sacred Fist Warpriest is a good unarmored healer. You are unarmored, can heal enough in an emergency, and are actually useful when you need to do proactive buttkicking instead of being a reactive band aid.

Warpriests are many things, but "good healers" isn't one of them. They're secondary healers, like Inquisitors. Their primary role is melee; they lack the spell slots to keep a party alive for a full day of adventuring.

My point exactly. I feel a primary caster that focuses on healing alone is waste of resources. "Good healer" is an oxymoron, as in-combat healing is a reactive stop-gap measure that is only necessary when you use poor tactics, and even then if you are going to die without incombat healing, you are going to die with in-combat healing the following round.

If you only need a dedicated healer when tactics go poorly, then you have a very kind-hearted GM. That said, even a dedicated healer does more than just heal; Divine spellcasting offers a variety of buffs, undoes a lot of long-term suckage that monsters can drop on you (Restoration, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, etc.), and Clerics, at the very least, can provide a flanking partner in melee.

Getting back to the options I was looking at earlier in the thread, the White Mage Arcanist is still an Arcane spellcaster, and has access to the full Wizard/Sorcerer spell list, while a Hex Channeler has full access to a variety of useful debuffs via other Witch hexes. The Ecclesitheurge....well....that guy sucks. No armor, no way to really raise his AC, simple weapons only, and limited access to attack spells. He's pretty much a buff-only class that doesn't get enough to make up for what he's losing versus a regular Cleric, IMO.


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Imbicatus wrote:
A Sacred Fist Warpriest is a good unarmored healer. You are unarmored, can heal enough in an emergency, and are actually useful when you need to do proactive buttkicking instead of being a reactive band aid.

Warpriests are many things, but "good healers" isn't one of them. They're secondary healers, like Inquisitors. Their primary role is melee; they lack the spell slots to keep a party alive for a full day of adventuring.

And not to derail this thread even further to being about channeling vs spellcasting, but I wonder sometimes how many encounters per day people who dislike channeling tend to go through. PFS, for example, generally doesn't allow much (if any) time for resting, so you're having to go through 4+ level-appropriate combat encounters. At low to mid levels (PFS never goes above 12, generally) you need the additional healing from channeling just to function, in my experience.

It's not a matter of channeling vs. spellcasting, since all channelers also have the option of casting more powerful healing spells. It's a matter of spell only vs spells + channeling.

Now, back on topic:

How can we go about making a White Mage Arcanist that works? The Hex Channeler kind of builds itself, since Witches already have access to so many healing options, but at low levels a White Mage Arcanist is dealing with very limited resources (low reservoir points, low spell slots) and is potentially stuck without much to do as a backup when they aren't healing.

Idea 1: Invest in INT and CHA to keep save DCs reasonable, be a Human, and pick up Extra Reservoir and Extra Exploit feats to pick up Flame Arc at level 1 along with the White Mage exploit. This leaves you with six reservoir points, 3 1st level spell slots, and two prepared 1st level spells. That means that even if you use all 3 slots for CLW, you still have 3 reservoir points left to drop Flame Arcs. No attack roll needed, so low DEX won't be a factor, and you can provide AOE damage to the group, which is disproportionately awesome at low levels. AC will be hurt by the lower DEX, but on the bright side the higher CHA will let you make better use of Exploits like Arcane Barrier and Spell Disruption (am I crazy, or is suppressing enemy buffs crazy good?)

Idea 2: Guys, I need an Idea 2 :)


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I've got a related question about the "School Understanding" exploit. It says:

Quote:
The arcanist can select one arcane school from any of the schools available to a character with the arcane school wizard class feature, but does not have to select any opposition schools. The arcanist gains one ability of that arcane school as though she were a 1st-level wizard, using her Charisma modifier in place of her Intelligence modifier for this ability. The ability must be one gained at 1st level and is limited in its use per day to 3 + the arcanist's Charisma modifier.

However, what if you choose a school with a power that isn't limited in uses per day, like the Life focused school?

Quote:

Life School

Associated School: Necromancy.

Replacement Powers: The following school powers replace the power over undead and grave touch powers of the necromancy school.

Healing Grace (Su): Whenever you cast a spell that has targets, affects creatures in an area, or requires an attack roll, you may heal creatures affected by the spell a total of 1 point of damage per level of the spell. This healing may be spread out between the targets of the spell in any way you choose. If you assign any of the healing to an undead creature, it instead takes 1 point of damage for each point assigned. At 11th level, the amount of damage cured increases to 2 points of damage per level of the spell. This healing occurs when the spell is cast and has no effect on creatures that enter its area after the spell is in place. At 20th level, the amount of damage cured increases to 3 points of damage per level of the spell.

If I chose Healing Grace, would I only be able to use it 3+CHA times per day? Would it add bonus healing based on the spell level, or would it only work on spells that I could cast at 1st level?


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So, let's say I have an Arcanist, and he takes the Bloodline Development Exploit, chooses the Arcane Bloodline, and gains a bonded item.

Now:

1. Would he ever be able to enchant the bonded item? The Bloodline power is supposed to work as though he's 1st level, and enchanting a bonded weapon requires you to be high enough level to take the requisite feat, but that's not exactly a level-dependent ability of the bloodline power.

2. Would the bonded item only allow him to cast one 1st level spell that he hadn't prepared? Or would it work on any spell that he knew, but hadn't prepared? Again, that ability isn't specifically level-dependent.

I realize that this is kind of a weird issue, since we're dealing with a class taking another class' ability that allows them to take yet another class' ability, but I'm hoping for some clarity on this.


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I would suggest picking up the Pathfinder Beginner Box; the booklet is a really good introduction to the system, and will likely be more helpful than a video. Also, check out the Pathfinder Society; if there's a PFS game near you, that's an ideal way to learn.


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You don't have to be evil to cast Infernal Healing, but it's a pretty poor way to save someone's life.


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spectrevk wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
spectrevk wrote:
Quote:
And they SCALE. Even Cure Serious heals more damage at 10th level than an 11th level Channel, healing 3d8+10 (average 23 damage) versus a 6d6 Channel's average of 21. Keep in mind that this is a 3rd level spell, which you gained at 5th level, versus your 11th level increase in Channel dice.
So you're talking about doing an average of 2 more points of healing to ONE person, versus doing it to every friendly in a 30 foot radius. And you're seriously arguing *against* the efficiency of channeling?

Two more points of healing to one person, with one of your LOWER LEVEL SLOTS.

You're getting more bang for what is essentially a lower level ability. At least Lay on Hands and Channel have the decency to be the same dice and whatnot.

It's even worse as an AoE against anything that's a threat.

Just because it's decent at 1st level doesn't mean it's the same at 11th.

23 points of healing to one person is not "more bang" than 21 points of healing to 6+ people. That's just bad math, man.

The main knock on using it offensively at higher levels is that intelligent undead are likely to make their saving throws. But at higher levels, that's not what it's for. It's for clearing out hordes of mindless undead quickly and without spending resources (i.e. spell slots) that can be put to better use. Making good use of channeling means that you have more spell slots for doing other stuff.

But we're well off topic here. Any ideas for making a better unarmored healer? What do people think of the Life Wizard Subschool? A White Mage could stack the School Savant Archetype to gain access to it; this would also give them an extra spell slot that they could convert into a Cure spell.

Apparently I'm an idiot: you can't stack School Savant and White Mage, since they both replace the 1st level Exploit. You could, however, stack Eldritch Font and White Mage and gain an extra spell slot at each level, at the cost of a prepared spell, but I don't think it would be worth it.


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One downside I forgot about with the White Mage Arcanist: they can't use Cure Wands, because while they can spontaneously cast Cure Spells, they don't get to add the Cure spells to their spell lists.


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Rynjin wrote:
spectrevk wrote:
Quote:
And they SCALE. Even Cure Serious heals more damage at 10th level than an 11th level Channel, healing 3d8+10 (average 23 damage) versus a 6d6 Channel's average of 21. Keep in mind that this is a 3rd level spell, which you gained at 5th level, versus your 11th level increase in Channel dice.
So you're talking about doing an average of 2 more points of healing to ONE person, versus doing it to every friendly in a 30 foot radius. And you're seriously arguing *against* the efficiency of channeling?

Two more points of healing to one person, with one of your LOWER LEVEL SLOTS.

You're getting more bang for what is essentially a lower level ability. At least Lay on Hands and Channel have the decency to be the same dice and whatnot.

It's even worse as an AoE against anything that's a threat.

Just because it's decent at 1st level doesn't mean it's the same at 11th.

23 points of healing to one person is not "more bang" than 21 points of healing to 6+ people. That's just bad math, man.

The main knock on using it offensively at higher levels is that intelligent undead are likely to make their saving throws. But at higher levels, that's not what it's for. It's for clearing out hordes of mindless undead quickly and without spending resources (i.e. spell slots) that can be put to better use. Making good use of channeling means that you have more spell slots for doing other stuff.

But we're well off topic here. Any ideas for making a better unarmored healer? What do people think of the Life Wizard Subschool? A White Mage could stack the School Savant Archetype to gain access to it; this would also give them an extra spell slot that they could convert into a Cure spell.


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Cap. Darling wrote:
If channeling is gonna be the thing, i like a Half elf oracle of life with the elf FCB on the channeling. He Can wear a breastplate plate but with a trait and a breastplate plate i. Mithral he wont notice.

If he's wearing a breastplate, then he isn't unarmored, and this is a thread about unarmored healers.

And channeling isn't a requirement; I was just answering the question of why channeling is a useful healing tool. It's a source of healing; someone who can cast Cure spells *and* channel (like a Hex Channeler) is going to have more overall healing per day than someone who can only cast Cure spells (like a White Mage).

That said, I think the White Mage might be a bit more interesting, since Arcanists have more offensive spell options than Witches do. I suspect the Hex Channeler/Hedge Witch will do a better job at healing though, and would be more suited to a party where they were the sole source of healing. White Mage would be fine in a party with a Divine caster though (perhaps an offensively-minded Oracle, like a Flame or Metal Oracle?)


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Quote:
And they SCALE. Even Cure Serious heals more damage at 10th level than an 11th level Channel, healing 3d8+10 (average 23 damage) versus a 6d6 Channel's average of 21. Keep in mind that this is a 3rd level spell, which you gained at 5th level, versus your 11th level increase in Channel dice.

So you're talking about doing an average of 2 more points of healing to ONE person, versus doing it to every friendly in a 30 foot radius. And you're seriously arguing *against* the efficiency of channeling?

Quote:


Healing one guy to full (or closer to full) is better than healing multiple guys for less than the monster's average damage. Channel is just very weak healing.

Assuming that you have one guy nearly dead and the rest just lightly wounded, you are correct; that's what's nice about being a cleric: you have the choice. But in a situation where you have a lot of moderately hurt people, with some of your squishies hanging around the level where they can be one-shotted, Channeling is a better option.

You're comparing channeling to spellcasting on single-target healing, which isn't what channeling is for. It's for group healing. At low levels, it's what keeps 1st level parties alive until they can afford a wand of Cure Light Wounds. And once they have the wand, it's what keeps them from burning through their wands every other adventure. Low-level adventurers can't really afford to enter combat at less than full HP, because they're never more than one critical hit away from negative HP.


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Cap. Darling wrote:
spectrevk wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
I dont undestand why channeling is that great. A normal healing patron witch is better IMOP. But a evangelist cleric with a monk dip to get by with out armor is also good all the buffing will make all the healing less likely to be needed:)
Selective Channeling is the most efficient method of keeping a party alive. Unless your DM has you fighting in narrow corridors, there's no way to restrict incoming damage to one person, and in most situations you're best off spreading the damage among several front-liners. Moreover, channeling works at a distance, and it doubles as a (again, very efficient) way to deal with crowds of low-level undead.
That May be but if your baddies do damage that Can be fixed with 1d6 pr 2 levels then i am sure you Can kill them before any body dies on Team hero. And if every body helps end the figth it ends faster. But if you Can make the mini game work for you, then great.

1d6/2 levels is pretty good compared to 1d8+level/2 levels (the Cure spell series) when you consider how much more often you can channel versus cast Cure Light Wounds. Even if you only use it outside of combat, Channeling is more efficient at healing groups, and lets you save your spell slots for buffs, remove curse, and attack spells.

You're not alone, of course; I've seen a lot of people turn up their nose and in-combat healing, as as long as you're facing down fairly safe encounters that give you adequate time to buff ahead of time, I suppose that can work.

I've been in plenty of PFS scenarios where we were dealing with surprise attacks that drastically dropped everyone's HP, and/or were surrounded by a large number of creatures. Now obviously, if you have AOE damage, then it's clearly the better tactical choice there, but if not, keeping all of your friendlies in positive HP, even if it costs you a Standard Action, can mean the difference between success and failure. Channeling is how Clerics can carry a lower-level party through the decision to "play up" a tier in PFS, at least in my experience.

And again, the fact that it doubles as an AOE attack vs undead hordes (again, a common encounter in Paizo adventures) makes it one of the more important things that Clerics do, IMO.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:

The Hedge Witch Archetype (from Ultimate Magic) is also worth noting, having spontaneous healing as it does.

Really, a Witch with either that, Hex Channeler, or both and the Healing Patron seems the definitive way to do this trick. You can be both one of the best healers in the game and effective offensively to boot, with some effort.

Ah, good idea! I'd forgotten about the Hedge Witch. I'm not even sure you really need the Healing Patron, since Hedge Witch lets you spontaneously cast Cure spells without actually knowing them, though obviously it's nice to have the other healing spells.

I also forgot to mention that the White Mage gets a nice group Fast Healing buff at 11th level


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Cap. Darling wrote:
I dont undestand why channeling is that great. A normal healing patron witch is better IMOP. But a evangelist cleric with a monk dip to get by with out armor is also good all the buffing will make all the healing less likely to be needed:)

Selective Channeling is the most efficient method of keeping a party alive. Unless your DM has you fighting in narrow corridors, there's no way to restrict incoming damage to one person, and in most situations you're best off spreading the damage among several front-liners. Moreover, channeling works at a distance, and it doubles as a (again, very efficient) way to deal with crowds of low-level undead.


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There are no oracle archetypes from official Paizo sources that replace the armor proficiencies. Oracle Archetypes generally just give you access to special Revelations.

There are, however, several Oracle Mysteries that give you access to Revelations that provide armor bonuses, such as Bones, Heavens, Waves, Air, Ancestor, Dark Tapestry, and Wood. In generall, they start out as Mage Armor equivalents, and they gain some extra ability (deflecting arrows, adding DR, or stealth bonuses) as you level up, and you get to use them for (level) hours per day (each activation must use at least one hour though). They're not ideal though, since they take up a Revelation slot, and you aren't really getting anything in return for not wearing armor.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Starting perhaps with the generation of us who played Final Fantasy games and remember the "white mage", there has long been a curiosity about playing a non-armored healing class in tabletop RPGs. While it is, of course, possible to play a Cleric and simply not wear armor, it's a sub-optimal choice, as the class is designed with armor in mind, and works best on the front/mid line. We've got a lot more options now in Pathfinder though, with Archetypes and extra base classes offering an almost unprecedented number of class options. I'd like to talk about options and builds, so I'll get things started:

White Mage (Arcanist Archetype, Advanced Class Guide)

- Pros: Arcane spellcasting offers some flexibility versus Divine spellcasters, and the Arcanist's semi-spontaneous casting makes this potentially one of the most flexible options. Gets Breath of Life.

- Cons: Gets Breath of Life one level after the Cleric does. Arcane Spellcasting means missing out on some of the common buffs that a healer normally provides. Casting Cure spells requires converting a spell slot and spending your Arcanist resource. Weapon choices are limited, and at 1st level you're giving up your normal Exploit, so unless you spend a feat on Extra Exploit, you could be coming up short on offense.

Hex Channeler (Witch Archetype, Advanced Class Guide)

- Pros: Access to Cure Spells, Channeling, and an extra Cure spell per party member (if you take the Heal Hex) means that you'll be putting out more heals than almost any other class option. Access to Witch's impressive list of debuff hexes and spells. Replaces your 2nd level Hex only, so it can easily stack with other Archetypes. Allows you to basically trade feats for Channel advancement via Extra Hex feat.

- Cons: Advancement of your Channeling requires you to either give up a Hex or a feat as you level up each time. Poor offensive output. This is definitely a support build. Forces the Witch to invest in Charisma.

Ecclesitheurge (Cleric Archetype, Advanced Class Guide)

- Pros: Full Divine spellcaster, with all of the buffs, heals, and resurrection that that implies. Can gain access to a wider list of domain spells than normal, adding more flexibility than other Clerics enjoy. Free extra spell slot. Can enchant their holy symbol without paying a feat. Unlike a Wizard's bonded object, the Ecclesitheurge isn't really hurt that much by the destruction of their bonded holy symbol; they just lose access to the extra spell slot.

- Cons: Loses 1d6 of Channel healing/damage overall. Loses access to weapon proficiency in their Deity's favored weapon. Has no way to make up for the AC deficit caused by the loss of armor proficiencies, and is barred from ever wearing armor. Seems to lose more than they gain.

Overall, I think the Hex Channeler is the best option, mechanically, though I suspect that the White Mage might be a bit more fun to play, particularly at later levels when you have enough spell slots and reservoir points to mix it up with heals and other exploits.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Pendagast wrote:
I think an entire AP, that focused on a Single Locale/dungeon with NO globe trotting would be cool.

Isn't that more or less what The Emerald Spire is?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Shifty wrote:

So I had this 'concept' (roleplaying wise) of a Witch that was more a seductress type, and figured this meant a good investment into CHA.

Mechanically though, this doesn't go so well, as Dip/Bluff are out in the cold a tad.

Any reason to take a good CHA as a Witch, or am I just lumbering myself with a 'Good in concept, bad in actuality' character?

Conceptually, I think you're looking at an Enchantment Wizard (or Enchantress, if you will). You may also want to look at the Controller or Manipulator specialty schools, if this is the type of character you want to roleplay.

Mechanically, the Witch class is fairly shackled to the "lone hermit in the woods with a cauldron" type of spellcaster.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:

Mechanically, you're missing three things, really:

1. Fervor. And the Action Economy benefit it offers. To do well in melee, Clerics need buff spells, these take rounds to set up. Warpriests can do so while fighting, by spending Fervor to make it a Swift Action. This is the big one, and pretty powerful if used properly.

2. Bonus Feats. A total of 6 Bonus Feats and the ability to take them as if you were a Fighter and had Full BAB is pretty cool. For example, a Warpriest archer can get Manyshot at 6th level, same level a Fighter gets it, and already have Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, and Deadly Aim to boot.

3. Blessings are actually quite good in some cases, and in almost all more combative than equivalent Domains. They're also the source of several very nice combos (including a no save Sleep effect in one case).

Thematically, Paladins are champions of righteousness, not really of their particular deity as such. Warpriests are the soldiers of their God. It's not the strongest thematic distinction, but it's at least as big a difference as between, say, Wizard and Arcanist.

I'd still basically never play one over, say, an Inquisitor, but there are in fact reasons to do so.

I get the action economy argument, but...is that really worth giving up all spells above 6th level? And drastically slowing down your spell progression in general? Far too many of the Blessings boil down to "add a d4 to your damage" for my taste...full Domains seem far superior. Travel, Luck, heck, even the Fire Domain seem better than any of the Blessings I saw, particularly since they grant bonus spells as well.

The Warpriest isn't martial enough for me to buy it as a real front-liner, and its casting is flat-out inferior. Inquisitors get a pretty huge synergy with Teamwork feats, and a set of Judgements that, IMO, are just plain better in combat than Blessings in most situations (especially since you can switch between them freely).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So, I was looking through the Advanced Class Guide today, and I don't quite understand why the Warpriest:

a) exists

and

b) is something a person would voluntarily play

From what I understand, the idea of the Warpriest is to combine the Cleric and Fighter classes in a way that allows a player to have a more "martial" divine character without having to play a Lawful Good Paladin. The thing is, the Warpriest only gets 6 spell levels, yet has the same BAB progression as a regular cleric. Instead of getting two domains, they get a much more limited set of "Blessings", and in return they get...Weapon Focus for free. All that they get in return for this, really, is Sacred Weapon (and a matching armor ablity).

Is there something I'm missing here? It doesn't seem like a terribly interesting or flavorful class, and mechanically it seems inferior to being a regular cleric.


Martina wrinkles her nose in disgust. "Ugh, what died in here?" she wonders aloud, stepping forward with her shield and torch at the ready.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My problem with more "traditional" AP modules like this is that it feels like something I could put together in a few hours using the tables in a GM's guide. Warlord obtains [macguffin], rallies legions of [cannon fodder], attacks small village, heroes intervene, fight their way up the ranks, kill warlord.

Mummy's Mask had the hook of an exotic locale (Osirion!) and the promise of fighting a 10,000 year old ghost pharaoh in a flying pyramid. Going from that to fighting an evil Giant in a cloud castle feels (a) redundant and (b) like a step down.

I can understand that Iron Gods doesn't appeal to everyone, and I'm not totally against "traditional" modules (I'm looking forward to Hell's Rebels), but much like Wrath of the Righteous, this AP seems a bit too cookie-cutter to appeal to me or my players.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I still haven't gotten mine, and I can't download the PDF either :(


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I haven't heard anything about the Hell's Rebels AP. Where can I learn more about it?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

What if Rogues had a talent that let them roll Reflex saves against Critical hits?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If I could change one thing about Rogues:

- I'd double the damage done by all traps

OR

- I'd make the negative effects of Dirty Trick harder to remove (one move action? REALLY?!)

OR

- I'd give them Weapon Finesse for free, and let them add DEX to melee damage with light weapons

OR

- I'd let Rogues add INT to their AC as long as they aren't flat-footed.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Tarantula wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
"The original classes" is kind of vague. The barbarian puts out very good damage, and while the slayer can rival the fighter and ranger to an extent, it is not by a substantial amount, and none of them can out perform a smiting paladin. What the AP's can't do is account for all of the new options. They cant even account for all of the CRB options with creative players, but that is what GM's are for.

Sorry, I meant mostly CRB and maybe APG classes.

Honestly, I don't see why arcanist isn't 100% straight up better than a wizard. I do agree that APs can't account for new options. How many support mounted characters for example? Smiting paladin only wins if you're fighting evil.

Speaking from experience, Rise of the Runelords gets *wrecked* by a decent Summoner.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I would count myself as being somewhat concerned as of the release of the Advanced Class Guide, which I've held off on buying for a bit. I'm actually more excited about the Occult book, because those classes are introducing a whole new pseudo-psionic thing to Pathfinder and Golarion, which is cool. I'm less excited about the ACG classes, many of which just seem like combat-buffed versions of the core classes (is there a reason to be a rogue now that Slayers exist?)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Meet Dax, the Android Oracle. I'm really excited about the possibility of playing this character. I like the idea of an android empowered by their body's previous souls.

Spoiler:
Dax was discovered by the famed wizard and technologist Khonnir Baine. Their relationship progressed from research subject to research assistant over the years, and while Dax does not comprehend affection in the same way that Khonnir and his daughter Val do, she does feel a duty to assist them and see to their continued existence. This is partially because of the pseudo-parental relationship she has with Baine, and partially because he is her best source of information regarding her strange abilities. Unlike most Androids, who reincarnate into a new body with no knowledge of their body's previous hosts, Dax is continuously barraged by the voices of her body's previous hosts. This is, at times, annoying, but it has also given her useful insights and a set of abilities unusual to her kind. She is able to generate a glowing protective shield around herself, and can summon an unearthly blade that she calls "Defiance" for brief periods of time. When Baine disappeared, it was obvious to Dax that she must go searching for them, and she began looking for other volunteers to venture into the caves with.

Android Oracle (Ancestor) 1

STR 14
DEX 16
CON 13
INT 12
WIS 12
CHA 14

AC: 13/17 (w/Spirit Shield) Touch: 13 Flat-Footed: 10 HP: 9 Fort: +1 Ref: +3 Will: +3

"Defiance" (Greatsword) +2 (2d6+2 slashing, 19-20)
Magic Stones +3 (1d6+1)

Traits: Local Ties (disable device), Seeker

Feats: Extra Revelation

Skills: Craft (alchemy) (Int) +5, Disable Device (Dex) +8, Knowledge (engineering) (Int) +5, Linguistics (Int) +5, Perception (Wis) +6, Spellcraft (Int) +5

Revelations: Ancestral Weapon, Spirit Shield

Curse: Haunted

Other modifiers: -4 Sense Motive, 1/day add +4 to one d20 roll, +4 racial bonus on all saving throws vs mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, and stun effects. Not subject to fatigue or exhaustion, immune to disease, fear, emotion-based, and sleep effects. Can never gain morale bonuses. +2 racial bonus to Perception checks. Low-Light Vision and 60 ft. Darkvision

Equipment: Oracle's Kit (9gp), Cold-Iron Dagger (4gp), 4 Acid flasks (40gp), Chronicler's Kit (40gp), Quarterstaff, 12gp

Languages Known: Common, Hallit, Androffan

Spells Known:
0: Mage Hand, Ghost Sound, Stabilize, Light, Detect Magic, Guidance
1: Cure Light Wounds, Magic Stone, Bless


Aw man, I forgot that you were a Gnome, but this kind of works even better if Martina doesn't know the difference (or doesn't know that Gnomes exist - they're fairly rare in Taldor, right?)

Just remember, her heart is in the right place. She just wants to protect all of the little ones :P


Is it just me, or is anyone else enjoying this emerging sub-plot of Martina being accidentally racist regarding Halflings? I'm really looking forward to "the Talk". :D


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If the Scorched Hand had been observing the temple previously, they would have seen the actual intruder, and would have known for sure that the PCs didn't go in before them.

I think what makes the most sense as a timeline is:

- Idorii tricks the PCs into exploring a pyramid outside of town by claiming that the third round of the lottery had been delayed.

- Idorii abandons the PCs in the desert at the pyramid, and returns to the Sorched Hand, who then make another go at negotiating for access to the Erudite Eye. It fails.

- The Scorched Hand make preparations to sneak into the temple. Meanwhile, the PCs return and rat them out to the Pharasmins.

- Nebta Kufre enters the temple of the Erudite Eye, steals the mask, and leaves.

- The Scorched Hand, delayed somewhat by the need for secrecy now that they are wanted for questioning, enter the temple of the Erudite Eye.

- The PCs enter the temple, but are forced to retreat after a harsh battle against an Aghash Div.

- The Sorched hand realize that the temple has been looted, assume that the PCs somehow managed to get in ahead of them, and make plans to ambush them. Back in town, they learn that the PCs emerged from the Necropolis before they did, and immediately sought care from the Pharasmins.

- Stalking the PCs through town, the Scorched Hand realize that they plan to return to the temple, and follow them inside.

- The combat proceeds as normal.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

They already killed the Akhat, but I get your point. She wouldn't have to know the mask was missing, just that someone was there before her.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm running a group through Mummy's Mask. Due to some staggered attendance, and just because I wanted to run it, I had the Scorched Hand trick them into exploring an "extra" site outside of Wati (basically, they diverted the group into the Risen from the Sands module). My intent was that the group would be upset with the Scorched Hand, who previously hadn't done anything bad to them, and would return in time to be right behind their adversaries in entering the temple.

The first problem that came up was recovery after Risen from the Sands, as the rogue contracted Mummy Rot. But so far, so good; the players blew the whistle on the Scorched Hand for tricking them and leaving them to die in the desert (Idorii led them to the pyramid, then took off with their mounts), so the Scorched Hand would have to be more careful in entering the Necropolis, since they were wanted for questioning.

They entered the temple on schedule, and found signs that some of the locked doors had been recently picked. Then, disaster struck, in the form of the fight against the Aghash Div. A full half of the party got cursed, and retreated to Wati to seek Remove Curse spells from the local clerics. They slept overnight so the rogue could get back the remainder of the Wisdom that he lost via Doru Div poison, and are now a full day behind the Scorched Hand.

What should I do here? My initial thought was to have Velriana and Co. ambush the party on their way back to the temple, believing that the party had stolen the Mask of the Forgotten Pharaoh, but there are several problems with this:

1. Velriana has little reason to believe that the group got into the temple before her, even if she does realize that someone else got there first.

2. Velriana doesn't know about the mask, and thus cannot know that it is missing. She has no reason to attack the party at this point.

3. Without the Scorched Hand, the exploration of the Erudite Eye temple doesn't really have a climax.

Any suggestions?

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