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BOAT!

FROG!

snip

I've been to your tower, it was ace.

EDIT: space to put everything in a neat line go!
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In PF, at least, there is a clear existence of some Moral Authority (and Ethical too!) or another that even the gods bow to.

Examples:
* Achaekek was clearly NE once, but now he's LE
* Paladins cannot be anything other than LG
* It really appears that Erastil has become more Lawful over time.
................(this may be debatable)................
* Asmodeus may (or may not) have once been good, but is now evil.
................(not the most solid of examples)................

Further, in PF, the gods have distinct non-infinite limits.

Example:
* Abadar's binding contract with Zon-Kuthon (and Pharasma not doing anything about it).
* Urgathoa's ability to defy Pharasma, escape the boneyard, and get away with it, while ascending to divinity at the same time.
* Related: Tar-Baphon's opposition to Arazni
* Super-Related: Geb and his dealings with Arazni
* Vaguely Related: Savith and Ydersius
* Rovagug v. the almost every god in existence and still nearly winning.

If gods were the final arbiter of such things, in PF, than none of the above cases would make sense. THAT SAID: the gods are supposed to be the final arbiter of such things as far as mortals are concerned, which indicates the presence of a Higher Power in play that makes the omniverse work according to certain "rules": one of which is alignment.

HOWEVER: there is no overgod ala Ao in PF/Golarion, as James has said so explicitly. THAT means we're left to "guess".

My guess is that the Old Ones (or whatever) probably did it. Everything. On accident. By burping. That madness somehow formed a mostly-coherent world, the super-large "shadow" of which (but again finite) is the Outer Planes, and gods, and stuff like that. Which is why some things don't make any sense. Moral authority is what happens when the madness, chaos, and meaninglessness of infinity just kind of gives rise to it (in Golarion's case).

WHICH LITERALLY MEANS: it's "evil", just because it's evil. No other reason than that. So it's a bit arbitrary and madness-inducing 'cause... well it's a bit arbitrary and madness inducing.

At least in Golarion as printed.

So: in Golarion as not printed, I'mma interested in those non-evil undead.

EDIT: so very ninja'd. Gonna read and talk more in a bit.
EDIT 2: so the being ninja'd doesn't matter and this is even more relevant at the end of the stuff that was posted.

And here we see Merisiel and Harsk giving some kobolds the bird.

This thread makes me so sad!

(wipes away tears)

Dark_Mistress wrote:

Good you say? Ok not as interesting as evil of course. But yeah well I guess I can see it more good thi.... *zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*

Hello, we are the Shades of Grey.

What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

Man walks into a game shop carrying 4e corebooks.

"Hello, I wish to register a complaint."

Guy behind the counter;

- "Sorry we're closing for lunch."

"Never mind about that my lad, I wish to complain about this edition of D&D I purchased not a year and a harf ago from this very FLGS."

- "Oh yeah, 4e, what's wrong wiv it?"

"I'll tell you what's wrong with it. It's dead, that's what wrong with it."

- "No, no, it's a great success, din' ya know, being outperformed in certain markets is no indicator of failure induced death."

"Look my lad, I know a failed edition when I see one and I'm looking at one right now."

- "No, no, remarkable edition 4e ain't it? Got beautiful balance 'int it?"

"The balance don't enter into it ... it's stone dead."

- "No, no, it's quite normal for editions to be renewed within 3 or 4 years - look at -erm- some wargames."

"Look my lad, I've had just about enough of this, this edition is definitely deceased ... and when I bought this edition not a year and a harf ago, you assured me it's lack of movement from the shelves was just anecdotal evidence and therefore meaningless."

- "Nah, wotc are just trying to expand it's success, by -erm- broadening it's appeal."

"Broadening it's appeal? What kind of talk is that? Look, why did it fall flat at the table the moment I got it home."

- "Yer 4e's made for a slower pace of game, beautiful edition, lovely balance ain't it?"

"Look matey, this edition is. No. More. It has ceased to be. It's expired and gone to meet it's maker. This is a late edition. It's a stiff. Bereft of live, it rests in peace. If you hadn't propped it up on the shelf it'd be pushing up daisies. It's run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. This is an ex-edition."

- "Well ... I suppose I'd better replace it then."

"To get anything done in this field you have to complain till you're blue in the face."

Turns out that awesome art is 94% of how you convince RPG fans that they want something that they've not yet read about.

To further freak folks out... we also assume the Material Plane is big enough not only for Golarion and Earth... but for pretty much ALL campaign settings. For all RPGs. And for all books and movies as well. The planet Vulcan's out there somewhere, as is Narnia and Middle Earth. In some cases, time AND space separates these lands from Golarion, but in some cases only space separates them.

And all of those worlds are contained in the Material Plane, which is a speck at the center of the elemental planes, which are combined to a speck in the center of the astral plane, which is a speck at the center of the Outer Planes.

I could care less about the rule set that an MMO follows. They are not the same and you should not aim for it. Pathfinder is a turn-based tabletop RPG. As a rules set for a TTOP RPG, it works quite well. However, a MMO is not a tabletop RPG. The people who think it should work like that do not get the design issues and probably never will.

I already know that the devs know this – but many of the fans here just don’t get it . Persuade your fans as to why – and with patience, the persuadable will be persuaded. However, some of these fans are NOT persuadable under any circumstances. That’s life. Keep selling them books and they will still be your customers, just not your online players. That’s okay. Let ‘em rant, because that isn’t Pathfinder.

I do see, however, a number of things that CAN work and DO feel like "Pathfinder,” to wit:

1 - Class Abilities: Pathfinder has improved upon and developed a number of class abilities that serve to distinguish the class from others. Those abilities should form a tangible aspect of a class design.

For example, we know what Paladins are. A Pathfinder: Online Paladin should have auras; smite evil, and have the ability to confer those benefits to others. Similarly, we know that a Witch has a familiar, can fly, and can cast hexes like misfortune and deep slumber. Alchemists in Pathfinder throw bombs and can use mutagens to increase their stats and body size. While something like a Vancian based arcane bond is not likely to matter in PF: O, Wizards should be able to throw a weapon and have it return to their hands. They should get some sort of metamagic and should be able to craft magic items. They should get a scorching ray and get multiple numbers of them as they advance (never mind what damage they actually do or how often it can be used) Barbarians are all about rage and DR. Gunslingers are all about guns, deeds, and grit, Ninjas can vanish, etc..

Keep the recognizable iconic abilities of classes and make them do similar sorts of things which are somewhat intuitive and recognizable to a player. The underlying math, lethality and so forth is irrelevant. Let the computer game designers of the MMO be computer game designers of an MMO. Nevertheless, some of the iconic powers of a class need to be represented and unique because that’s what fans expect and that’s what keeps up the verisimilitude of the Pathfinder brand.

2 - Look and Feel: Pathfinder has a distinctive art direction to its characters and many of its monsters. Some of that is going to work well in a computer game -- and some of it is not. Cut the stuff that will not work for polycount and animation reasons and do it without remorse.

But when you get right down to it, Pathfinder is Wayne Reynolds' art style. Make that come to life? You are golden in terms of art direction. Fail to deliver it and you dropped the ball and will alienate customers. Sorry – but in many respects it really IS that simple.

Above all, keep the cartoony look to your characters. There are strong benefits to this. On a technical design basis, it reduces polycount. As we move forward in the next five years, PC Gaming threatens to go off a cliff and the desktop will not be the primary platform for this game. Accordingly, anything that reduces graphical overhead and makes it more laptop friendly is good. Any CTO who tells you what the GPU capabilities are of the expected users of this game 4 years from now is making it up. He doesn’t know. That’s an ENORMOUS tech risk, so the engine and art direction has to be HIGHLY scaleable.

If you went for something like the CANVAS engine for your art style? You would not go wrong in terms of artistic impact (tech/economic feasibility is another matter). Apply the CANVAS engine's style and Wayne Reynolds art and color palettes and tell me you wouldn’t drool to play that game.

On a less technical basis, cartoony designs also serve to make the game look unique. The problem with realistic 3d models , shaders and middleware environmental options all designed to operate within the tech limits of the hardware platform of the day is that it all ends up looking the same, from game to game. Seeing as you are likely to have to use middleware for much of your environmental organic effects, anything that serves to distinguish the look of the game from that produced by others enhances the value. In this case, it also delivers on the expectations of fans – so double down on Wayne Reynolds' iconics and cartoony goblins.

Blizzard made the right call with WoW. Some people hated it and it turned them off -- but you cannot argue with that level of success. I can confirm that there was a significant debate within BioWare as to whether to go cartoony with SW:ToR. BioWare decided to go a little cartoony with their art direction in TOR too -- and it was the right call. Some people complained sure, but some people always complain.

3 - Golarion: At Paizo's current publication rate, it is likely that there will at that time of PF:O's release be more game material written about the world of Golarion than any other fantasy world in the history of RPGs. Even the FR (and that's saying something, damn it).

That is a VAST treasure trove of IP. It's the one thing Paizo brings to the table which it does BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE, in or outside of the computer development field. Do not sacrifice this on anybody's sandbox altar. Dance with the girl that brung ya.

That's what a Pathfinder: Online is to me. It's not rolling a 20, it's not Vancian Magic, longswords which do 1d8 or even magic missiles.

Gimme a Witch that hexes with a fox familiar, a chance to interact with the iconic characters which LOOK like Wayne Reynold's art come to life -- all set in a believable slice of Golarion.

That's a Pathfinder MMO to me.

Oh. This is the groundless speculation thread. In three years Paizo will be doing so well they buy White Wolf after the MMO fizzles. A glorious new era of World of Darkness will be created.

Recently one of my friends and regular players decided he wanted to get some experience GMing Pathfinder, and as I was likewise interested in playing a game for once instead of running one, I agreed that this was a good idea. We began browsing the Adventure Paths to decide on which one to run, and I wondered whether Jade Regent--being the most recent AP and therefore likely to be the beneficiary of five years of experience writing APs--wouldn't be a good idea to start off with.

However, a major concern I have after merely reading the Jade Regent Player's Guide is that the major NPCs of the Adventure Path are... well, really major. They have class levels in PC classes. They're strong, they're tough, they're experienced adventurers with wealth to their name. The PCs are all but required to design a pre-existing relationship with one of the NPCs, and of the campaign traits in the Player's Guide to represent these relationships, the vast majority of them put the PCs in a subordinate role.

The whole thing reads like an institutional parody of the worst "GM's Pet NPC" horror stories out there, minus the parody. The very fact that the Player's Guide offers a suggestion that the players could play the NPCs as their own PCs (as well as the fact that one of the NPCs is a long lost heir to an empire) suggests to me that the entire thing was written to star the NPCs, where the PCs end up being hangers-on, students, or people who are just incidentally along for the ride.

Is this impression accurate? I haven't read much more beyond the Player's Guide, on the possibility that my friend ends up running this AP, so for all I know the NPCs all die en route or otherwise disappear, or there are other events which serve to showcase the PCs as more than just plucky sidekicks.

I'm glad someone likes them, because I spend more time writing, editing, and assembling them than I do almost anything else related to Paizo these days.

Once upon a time I wrote about zombie tea parties, unlucky gremlins, and the like. Now I try to find seven different ways to describe a Flip-Mat.

The adventure continues! :)

John Benbo wrote:

and is he/she awesome? But seriously, when I went to edit my profile, it has a PFS character listed for me named "Kelaxe." Is this normal? I haven't made a PFS character but wasn't sure if maybe I was just assigned one...Or if you are missing your character named "Kelaxe", he/she is linked to my profile.

Kel has been axed.

:)

Thank you. And a moment of silence for brave Kelaxe, whoever he/she was...

::TRUMPET::

Inquiring minds want to know.

I replaced all references to Lovecraft and the Great Old Ones with references to Doctor Doom. My game, my rules.

Dr. Doom is an avatar of Nyarlathotep.

So Dr. Doom is an avatar of Nyarlathotep. Nyarlathotep is replaced with Dr. Doom, who is, as we know, an avatar of Nyarlathotep.

Dr. Doom is an avatar of Dr. Doom who is an avatar of Dr. Doom who is an avatar of Dr. Doom who is...