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@wintersrage - but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim

this means that the you still get the bonuses from deadly aim when firing at a touch AC, deadly aim specifically states that it's bonuses do not apply to touch attacks. the firearms description is letting you know that even though you are hitting a touch AC it is not considered a touch attack. just thought i'd clarify that for you.

it does in fact cover things other than just rp'ing sex, to include things such as which creatures can produce with which, what the length of pregnancies are which creatures can choose to or not to impregnate or become impregnated. if you look past all the gritty details there are actually usefull topics in the book that seem to be what you are looking for.

here's the system i use to accomodate this, in my world there is an adventurers guild that has badges that bind to the people they are made for. I do not allow magical items that give boosts to the things already included in the "badges". also players must be at least lvl 5 before they can get magical effects added to their weapons or armor and +# enhancements are not allowed to be added to either. master work is removed from the game entirely with this system as well as far as weapons and armor go. i cut back loot a good deal and make finding magical items mean alot more because of it. with this system players get a stat increase every even level instead of every 4 and i do not let them have access to magical items that increase stats by more than +2 (though i do allow the ones that give all physical or all mental still at only a +2 though.) the chart for the progression of the badges is as follows.

1 +1 TO HIT
4 DR 1
5 +2 HIT
8 DR 2
9 +3 HIT
11 +3 DAMAGE
12 DR 3
13 +4 HIT
15 +4 DAMAGE
16 DR 4
17 +5 HIT
19 +5 DAMAGE
20 DR 5
ARMOR BONUS = LEVEL /2 rounded down.

This works extremely well at all levels in keeping things balanced with the way the CR's work and is very easy to keep track of. hope it helps.

edit: the plus to hit and damage applies to casters as well, but the bonus damage can only be applied once per round, so in the example of a chain lightning only one of the strikes would have the damage applied, or for magic missle only one missle would have the bonus damage.

also if you are giving your spell casters so many benefits to balance it out you may want to consider giving your melee something, maybe able to ignore armor for a number of attacks per day equal to their combat mod?

i've used a similiar concept for spell books before but the rule was as follows

a wizard can use their spell book to cast from without using up their spells per day. doing so takes a number of rounds equal to 1 plus the spell level being cast. while reading from their spell books in this matter they are considered flat footed and provoke AO's on each round of their casting from every person in melee range. if the wizard is sucessfully hit while casting in this fashion they must make a concentration check DC 10+ damage recieved in order to continue casting. If their casting is interupted they must start over from the beginning to continue casting. Metamagic feats cannot be applied to casting in this fashion. Eschew materials cannot be applies to casting in this fashion.

attempting to make a fey race with heritage from imperial cloud dragons (no eastern settings in my world but the imperial dragons are still there) would like some feedback on the race. (ended up being a 33 point race from the ARG).

Boydran race

the important thing to remember with making a monster specifically for your game is that cr's are only a guide line, knowing your party's strengths and weaknesses is more important. i've had a party of 3 lvl 7's easily take down a cr 12 and then 2 sessions later die to 2 cr 5's. the individual strengths and weaknesses are the important part. If your party is high melee that fight will be fairly easy though definately resource intensive as they'll go through a lot of hp's. your monsters average damage per round is 27 so that's something to keep in mind.

in the write up i put for you i actually removed the armor proficiency as it didn't make sense for a class that would grow extra limbs, extra heads, tails, wings.. figuring out the armor they would have to wear would be a pain. I would consider putting a limitation on the class stating they can only use natural attacks or weapons in one round instead of both, which is easy to explain rp wise cause they are not born with their natural attacks but rather force them upon their bodies so being able to do both at once is outside the scope of what they can achieve.

also if you want to send me a message with your email address i can give you edit privladges on the google doc.

the only way to do it is to feel it out and figure out what is or isn't balanced once it's written out

as far as theories go on what might be balanced to base it off of? umm high bab classes don't get spells above 4th level mid bab classes generally get up to 6th low bab get up to 9th. mid bab martial classes (as in non spell casters) should get abilities each level. high int classes should have low skills, low int non martial classes should have high skills, hd size is relative to how much of a martial class they are. (non melee shouldn't need the hit points)

that's all the "common sense" stuff that is there from just looking at the existing classes. anything outside of that just throw something together, play around with it and tone it up / down as needed to balance it at each level. i recommend using the combat manager application, putting your class in a party of four and at each level put your party of four against a fight 2 cr's higher. that should give you a good idea of how powerful the class is at each level and make it easier to make tweaks to it.

for my games we just house rule it that resistances stack as long as their source isn't a spell, this doesn't seem to break anything and we've never had a problem with it at all.

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I don't wish to upset anyone and in turn I don't wish to be upset by anyone. I just want to find a way to peacefully create another base or arch-type class. Too much to ask?

xan i make a lot of base classes, i have quite a bit of experience in this, and i can tell you 100% for certain there is no science to it, it is just art. you will never be able to break it down to x feature being worth x feature, it just doesn't balance that way. the only way to do it is to feel it out and figure out what is or isn't balanced once it's written out. People here were trying to tell you that, not insult you or be unproductive.

If you have an idea for a base class you want and feel you can't do it yourself, just put up a request here and someone will most likely be willing to build it for you or help you fix one you've attempted to build that isn't balanced, but no one here is going to have a magical answer to point values cause they just don't exist.

i haven't put in the point cost for evolutions or reworded evolutions so they weren't summoner specific but here's a google doc with my suggested changes to the class as a full class template.


sphen is pretty spot on about it being under powered, you are effectively playing only an eidolon and making it a weak one at that.

Some sort of natural armor progression should be added to the class.

Don't tone down the hit die and bab or your just going to be making it even weaker.

Is there a reason why soul steal only gains a single new class skill when the others get two except for totem, but that gets one plus wild empathy.

to help bring it up to a more balanced level i would recommend giving them a self heal based on their origin type, for instance soul stealers would be able to make a check when a creature dies to absorb some of it's soul for a self heal.

just my thoughts on it, like the class so far, the idea of playing just an eidolon is neat.

the important thing to remember with the armor being dr rule is what it is overcome by, at the higher levels where it seems to get unbalanced the pc's will most likly have the magical or adamantine weapons that will overcome the Dr of the things they are attacking anyway, it is very well balanced as is written and doesn't really need much changing.

only balance fighters need in my opinion is 4 + int mod for saves and a choice between will and reflex as a high save along with fort based on which type of fighter one is playing. maybe an ability they get at level one to select one of the two that gives bonuses based on level to that save so it evens out with being a high save, they are pretty fine with every thing else and don't need balance, they stand their own just fine balance wise.

should be worded something like this, as per the rogue feature advanced talents.

Greater Plasma Surge: At 10th level, and every two levels thereafter, a Blood Reaver can choose one of the following Greater Plasma Surge in place of a Plasma Surge.

you should split it up so that ones that say require 10th level or higher are under a seperate catagory called greater surges, and add the class feature at 10th to allow them to pick greater surges instead of regular ones just like rogue tricks work, i'll look at it more later to help you come up with more surges and to help a bit more with balance, it's almost there now, but for now it's game time so i'll take a look more tomorrow.

the only appropriate alignment for the doctor is true neutral, though he has good tenancies he thinks history is more important than morality, a good person would never get as excited as he does over tragedy, and he cares more about the balance of things than the actual good of them. That's taking all the doctors, not just the newest, he is just as capable of letting someone good die for the balance of things as he is of saving someone's life.

I'm thinking he'd be a samsaran in the pf universe..

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you should make a google document so you can just make the changes on there, it will be easier than looking at multiple posts for the changes

i wasn't suggesting it made the duelist redundant, i was specifically saying that they would benefit from it but not many others would so as it was written by thurin it would be better as an alternate class feature than as a feat. weapon finesse is supposed to go along with things like spiked chains and elven curved blades, and it is fairly safe to say it's intended to go along with two weapon fighting since 2wf is dependant on dex requirements, so limiting it to a single weapon with a hand free doesn't fit the theme of weapon finesse as i see it. I was not intending to be vague i thought the arguments against it applying to only a single weapon had already been made. Out of all the things said so far i still like the idea of improved weapon finesse adding int onto str damage for finesse weapons, additional restrictions geared to specific classes really shouldn't be included.

i have to agree with dabbler here badbird, what your proposing sounds more like an alternate class feature for duelists and less like a finesse feat the more you go into it.

i would think the occupied square they are standing in would technically count as an "attended object", and interacting with something attended automatically breaks invisibility. That would be my interpretation of it, doesn't mean i'm 100% correct, and even if my interpretation is right you can still house rule it otherwise, in which case you would just use the acrobatics rules.

Quenching: At 9th level, the reaver no longer provokes attacks of opportunity when drinking a flask(or other container of similar size) of blood in combat. Drinking blood from this containing has become a swift action.

i would recommend replacing it with

Reaver Fangs: at ninth level a reaver learns to utilize his energies to grow a set of supernatural fangs. by expending a move action the reaper may grow a set of fangs giving him a bite attack of 1d6 plus strength. On a successfull bite the reaver regains 1d4 plasma points. This bite attack cannot be combined with the greater plasma surge Blood Drain. These fangs count as magical for the purposes of damage reduction. these fangs cannot be concealed by magical means, and are too large to keep hidden with a closed mouth. Retracting these fangs is a free action.

the movement through the occupied square would juts break invisibility. There really isn't a check they could do to avoid that.

you could however use the 3.5 dieties and demigods to build him into a diety if you wanted to.

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i don't think there are systems in pathfinder that can reproduce that level of epicness...

few changes i'd suggest.. plasma pool = level plus con instead of level *2 plus con plus 5, make anything that can do actual ability score damage or drain a greater power surge like harald suggested about splitting them between regular and greater and making greaters available at 10. change the blood scent to state that they can sense there is blood in the area, but can't pin point it's location, and can't know whose it is. I'd also make scarred start at 4th and be every 4 thereafter so 4,8,12,16,20 ending at +5 nat armor. Also you should explain the system for how exactly they feed, cause it seems to me like the blood drain ability which states you drink the blood would replenish plasma instead of costing them?

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just from a quick glance a few things.. 1 your saves are off... 2, a high bab class, with all martial proficiencies, amazing abilities, fast movement, blind sense at level 3 (through scent) rage at level 2, stat boosts... you need to figure out where you need to tone this class down, as it is there would never be a reason to play any other class in a game with one of these cause they are very very over powered.. It is a neat concept, i like the concept a lot actually, but the class really does need to be cut back alot for balance.

we house ruled it that darkvision was inverted vision the eyes just developed weird so that dark was seen as light and light as dark, creatures that lived in both worlds, like dwarves, evolved so their eyes would go back and forth between the two, but we gave them all the downside that abrupt exposure to light or dark would take 3 rounds for their eyes to adjust, giving them -6, -4, -2 to everything based on site for those three rounds. made for some interesting fighting, and might help with your evolution theme.

Thus the "You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand."

must have completely overlooked that line, though admittedly i don't see the point of being a dex fighter without two weapon fighting since it's built around dex. I can see a 1 handed rogue maybe since sneak attack should be a big deal of their damage anyway, but the damage gap for a 1h dex fighter would be huge compared to a 2h str fighter.

bad the reason it doesn't balance is two weapon fighting, those feats require high dex so if you can ignore strength all together you will have more damage output than someone doing str and a half with a 2 hander since you'd have an additional attack that did full dex (with the double slice feat)

here's what i got out of everything said in the thread so far..

improved weapon finesse
Requirements: dex 13, int 13, weapon finesse
Benefits: add your int modifier to damage as well as your str. modifier. This only applies to weapons that qualify for weapon finesse.
Normal: only your str. mod is applied to weapon damage.

for those that thinks it's unbalanced for dex, i propose drop all req's other than weapon finesse, call it improved finesse and make the dex damage that is added in place of str. precision damage.

ok i see what you mean, sorry your first response didn't mention weapon special qualities or i missed it entirely. You can easily drop the +level % from my crit system and instead have weapon crit percentages equal to 5% per crit range so a 20 is 5% a 19-20 is 10% a 15-20 is 30%. that keeps the weapons meaning something to you. For myself my players never seem to care as much about weapon special qualities and instead base 99% of their decisions on crit range so i'd rather leave it out entirely.

The main problem I see with most of these suggestions is that if you take the critical threat range and damage multiplier away from weapons, there really isn't any way to differentiate the most commonly used weapons, aside from damage type. Battle axes, heavy maces, longswords, morningstars, and warhammers all do the exact same thing, and three of those are martial weapons.

so your main problem is that a RPG only has role play differences between weapons with changes to the crit system? yeah i can see not wanting any rp in my rpg's...

red i like to use fumbles and here's what we do for ours, just roll a percentile and use these results.

1-25 = miss
26-50 = drop weapon (unarmed or natural attacks = fall prone
51-75 = attack ally (you reroll an attack against an adjacent ally still having to hit their ac, and still able to crit them)
76-87 = attack self (you roll an attack against your own flat footed ac.)
88-95 = break weapon (weapon gains the broken condition)
96-99 = confused (player loses their next turn.)
100 = roll twice on this table.

i don't have d20's have anything to do with crits for my game, every hit has a chance to be a "lucky shot" as it was put earlier, and the system is rather simple that we use.

when you score a hit you roll a percentile, you have a base chance of 5+level to score a critical hit (a level 13 with no crit feats would have a 18% chance to crit as an example where a level 20 would have a 25% chance) improved crit adds 5% keen adds 5% (the two still do not stack), feats and class features that add to your crit confirmation roll add a percentage equal to the bonus they give, and the samurai class feature that gives them an auto criot they just have to confirm instead adds 50% for that one attack. fighters at level 20 have their class feature that auto confirms crits replaced with this.

Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, a fighter chooses one weapon, such as the longsword, greataxe, or longbow. Any attacks made with that weapon that hit have their crit percentage chance rolled twice, and they take the better roll, and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type.

hope this system helps a bit for what you were looking for?

never make an item assuming your pc's can't get it.. what happens if the npc dies in combat? you should always consider even when it's a friendly npc "do i want my players to possibly get their hands on this?"

i think i'd have to see it clear and concise i kinda get what you mean but without the clarifications I'm not 100% on it. Alternately if you wanted to give actual effects instead of bonuses something i've been thinking of doing with my system is at levels 6, 11, 16, and 20 giving a magic style feat where you select abilities from the items in the game and make them available at that level. I was thinking of just basing it off the wonderous items, making magic style feats for minor (lvl 6) medium (lvl 11) and major wonderous items (lvl 16) and then at lvl 20 something between major and artifact. as an example at lvl 6 i select the magic style feat "Elven Kind" which gives my charactor a +5 circumstance bonus on stealth checks as per a cloak of elven kind. I'd have to go through and write up all the feats available, which would not include any AC or stat bonuses items, but i think that's close to what you were saying?

side note with my leveling system, in our game players get ability score boosts every even level instead of every four levels, ends up being 5 extra ability points by level 20 (so one shy of a +6 ability increase item.)

cas while i like the general idea of that it gives the players a way to get stuff too easily. if they can use these points to purchase any magic item that could feasibly be an inherent bonus instead of an item it will open up room to way too many debates. ("why can't i have my feet with a perma haste like boots of haste?") if you're goign outside of giving them just straight bonuses you should still be in control of magic items, such as availabilities of different things based on city's and what not, so if players really want a certain item there could be an entire side quest just to get to a city that sells it or to get it back from the tomb it was lost in.. just being able to flat out get stuff is too easy in my opinion.
As i said though, "in my opinion" doesn't make your idea wrong, just throwing in my 2 cents.

summary: straight stat boost = ok to me, magic effects = shouldn't be handed out.

yeah i like keeping things for my game that way :)

here's what i am using for a low magic world, the bonus are effects from house clasps the adventuring party is wearing. the bonuses seem to balance out really well and the players love it cause they get something new every level.

1 +1 TO HIT
4 DR 1
5 +2 HIT
8 DR 2
9 +3 HIT
11 +3 DAMAGE
12 DR 3
13 +4 HIT
15 +4 DAMAGE
16 DR 4
17 +5 HIT
19 +5 DAMAGE
20 DR 5


I am not looking for changes to the encounter, i know the rules for making it are fudged for a few abilities, i'm just trying to get an idea of what CR people would place this as.

Morgrith CE Demon

displacer beasts weren't reprinted in pathfinder, i have one that i made a cr 16 for pathfinder if you want i can put in in a google doc for you, otherwise there's a thread where someone on the forums makes monsters for people and he's extremely good at it. though just applying the advanced template to the D&D 3.5 displacer beast would probably suit your needs since pathfinder is pretty compatible with 3.5

your dc for emotion drain is way too high, assuming int is their primary stat i think you'd be looking at somewhere around a 21? as for the rest of it it's exceedingly weak for a cr 12. Also to balance it emotion drain should not be an aoe, that's a party killer, it should be a gaze attack most likely or an after effect of a touch attack could have a neat feel for the faceless.

An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence. An outsider has the following features.

• d10 Hit Dice.
• Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (fast progression).
• Two good saving throws, usually Reflex and Will.
• Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme.
Traits: An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
• Darkvision 60 feet.
• Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
• Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
• Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
• Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.

i would take it up to 12 hit dice personally and adjust the rest of it's stats according to what is described in the outsider list presented above (copied straight from the prd) that plus the changes i recommended to it's core ability would make this a fun encounter.

personally for falling damage i have never liked having a die size for the damage of a fall, i find no reason why a level 20 would live through a 300 foot drop, in my games I've always done distance divided by 3 = percent of health damage acrobatics check dc 10 = 10 less feet of falling, every additional 5 = another 10 feet less so a dc 25 acrobatics check takes away 40 feet of falling damage from rolling with the fall, characters without acrobatics can make a flat dc 15 reflex save to take 10 feet less damage. so a fatal fall of 310 feet takes anyone to 0 hit points, falling more than that doesn't just knock you out but takes you below 0 and can kill you.

example a 100 foot fall

first 10 feet = no damage

90 divided by 3 = 30

brock with 120 hit points takes 30% damage form the fall or 40 hit points


he rolls an acrobatics check and gets a 21 reducing the falling distance damage by 30 feet meaning he only takes the damage of a 60 foot fall or 20% damage.

so brock ends up only taking 24 damage from the fall.

This class is not meant to be a replacement or conversion for the 3.5 Complete Warrior Swashbuckler.

there are far too many similarities for it to be considered anything else, even if you state that it's not and i'm pretty sure it's not covered under the OGL.

i would like to see an ant swarm for it.

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