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I'd still say that many schools of magic are not equal. If you want to work under the assumption they are, this works better, but I'm sure that there's those who will agree with me that the super schools of Conjuration and Transmutation are hard to beat, especially by divination and enchantment.

I think that comes down a lot to flavor of the game in general and player style as well, but we could probably debate that until we're blue in the face with varying examples on both sides :)

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Personal request, can you increase the font size? It's a little difficult to read. Also might want to use more spacing, some of the walls of text are a bit intimidating to carve through.

Font size increased i'll space it out better later

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I will admit, by no fault of your own, it's annoying figuring out which cleric spells are in which school. It's just irritating.

100% agreed :)

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And yeah, with prep time this thing will DOMINATE melee. Just think of all the transmutation spells clerics get that super charge them.

Most fights don't have alot of prep time though, and the ones that do typically are going to be against big badies anyway where a transmuter rune lord would be a serious bonus to the party, or if it's a boss with the prep time a seriously difficult fight that would be very rewarding to overcome

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Rune Casting: I like that it's flavorful, it feels very "boss" like. Not sure about the limitations for divination/universal, there some explanation for that? Just since they're not tied to a sin/virtue?

That's from the rise of the rune lords mythos that the class is based around, divination was considered to be universal magic, and since their magic isn't the same as actual magic they would need access to all schools of magic to make something universal, hence why they don't get it till they have all schools unlocked

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Adding somatic components is nice, but it's mostly flavor to me.

it's also a pretty good balancing factor since it requires them to have a free hand for every spell they cast, it negates being able to wield two handers or duel wield. Considering not allowing them to ever take still spell.

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How does Rune Casting interact with metamagic, particularly quicken spell? Can they use quicken spell, or not?

For the play test we have switched to not allowing meta magic or item creation for them as the magic isn't the same but still haven't decided 100% on it so would love your thoughts.

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I do appreciate the full round casting time, although I think all casters should require it.

We actually added that cause we had a system that required all magic to be full round and it would not go into effect until the end of a round, liked it so much i thought it would be a neat addition to this class, and also help balance it a ton.

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Rune Pool: Have to keep reminding myself this is for mythic, so the recharge mechanic isn't terrible considering that. The only problem I see with it is that at first it feels too good when your friends are recharging powers daily, and at later game it feels weak when they're getting more and more mythic uses. It feels like it needs to scale better.

I'm still up in the air about it being after rest or not, on one hand there are mythic powers that allow really quick recharging /preparing of spells, but i don't think there's any that get rid of the daily requirement.

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The bonus to hit/damage is seriously low, especially considering everything else they can do. I'd say one point used gives you a bonus equal to your RL level, that'd be more in keeping instead of burning like 5 for a +5 to hit and damage. Although honestly I'd just hoard them to reroll saves.

Gonna change it to bonus equal to half level min 1 and see how it plays out. I think full level bonus might be a bit much for it.

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The wording on Insightful Scribing is a little muddy, but it seems like another ability with a lacking scaling DC, making it easy to make the DC every time. I do appreciate the example though, it does help a little.

I am trying to find a way to write it more concisely, as far as the dc to make it i very rarely make the dc's for insightful scribing so almost always pay the extra costs in testing, i've halfway been considering lowering it. and the intense resource usage of it even with a made save still makes it an ability used rarely, but very helpful in a pinch.

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seems like the class is intended to be a mixed melee/magic class from how the abilities work together.

Or easily to be specialised one way or the other, yes. Also something that was added due to the rise of the rune lords.

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Rune Shift: Greater T-port at 8th level is pretty intense, maybe 10 for that? And does Gate require material components? Might want to specify if Gate's only for traveling instead of free monsters to destroy God.

Gate is being reworded to dictate it is only used for travel

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Rune Power: This seems like it's coming a little late, maybe this could be at 8 instead?

The rune powers are balanced out with the rest of their abilities to keep on par with mythic charactors, coming sooner would make them a bit over powered for those lower levels, and have them gain too many mythic powers by level 20

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Rune Well: Actually underwhelming, it seemed pretty tame for a 20th level mythic ability.

summoning mythic minions, casting through scrying and a death avoider seems underwhelming? I've been worried it was too much for a cap stone, even if it was mythic. Why do you believe it's underpowered?

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I hope this helps, I know I've been making a better class with my (mystic) Warlock thanks to feed back, although this is a hard class to critique since the idea behind it is so new and unlike any other.

You're help thus far has been very insightful and helpful, and i am very glad that you think the idea is very unlike any other, coming up with something new and unique in the world of table top role playing is close to impossible now adays :)


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First things first, I'm the only person who doesn't know how to do colors on their google docs because I'm an idiot.

Right click a table and click on table properties.

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Second, this kind of concept is pretty hard to judge, although it seems like it has EVERY spell in the game basically (some druid/paladin/etc outliers aside), which is really way more powerful than any mythic path allows. By a wide margin. No prep, just all magic instantly. I would never play a different class ever. While some things in the class help balance it (limited schools, no long casting times), starting with Conjuration would already be pretty brutal for play ability.

I do kind of agree and was hesitant at first with the openness of the spells they know, however through play testing the limitations we put did balance it out pretty well and well enough to be balanced as far as mythic play was concerned. (also note the class is primarily intended for npc's in mythic campaigns, not sure how likely i would be to allow players rune lords)

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A good Fort and 3/4ths BAB cements this, as this class is probably better at melee than melee could ever be considering the spells the Wizard and Cleric list have to bolster someone. This could have no class features at all and still be FAR too good.

Maybe if you had multiple rounds of prep before a combat started but all spells requiring somatic components really limits their melee versatility.

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Slight nitpick: Runelords are able to wear light armor, but not cast in it? I mean it's not hard to get something decent down to 0% Arcane spell failure

We dedcided to actually get rid of their armor proficiency a while ago and had forgotten to remove it from the document.

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Also pretty sure you mean "Somatic", not semantic, for the type of component they're requiring.

oopsy!

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It's also a wisdom based class that's requiring will saves to cast...that's powerful as hell. And the saves for the spells don't really scale that well, since you're getting +1 to your will save every 2 levels, which is as often as you're increasing the DCs, so anything boosting your will save makes this trivial pretty quickly (and also limits your early game to not casting non associated runes.

A point very very well taken, we actually dropped their will saves to a low save to help balance it out. As far as not casting non primary runes it just means they are more likely to use up resources, but in a pinch the resources are worth it for the spells.

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Another problem is that you've equated all magical schools as equal...they are not. A way to help with the scaling issue could be making certain classes (aside form primary rune school) easier to cast from. Conjuration should be difficult as hell, but Enchantment should be a walk in the park.

I do in fact believe all schools of magic are pretty much even, every last one has spells that can be very uniquely used for the same general power level. Enchantment being easier to cast? i find it to be one of the single most useful schools in the game, whether in typical RP situations or in battles enchanting enemies to fight for you, or other various uses.

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The rest doesn't seem TOO crazy, but I'm not really sure I like how much of a departure this is from how the game is normally played.

As a mythic class it is intended to be different than normal. Thank you very veyr much for your feed back so far you helped point out a couple of things i hadn't considered and it is greatly appreciated.


Still looking for any type of feedback on this, class critiques, thoughts on having a "mythic class" suggestions for the rune powers, anything.


My wife and myself have been working on play testing / fleshing out a new homebrew class based on the mythic system for the past couple months. The concept we started with was to make a full class that by level 20 would be the equivalent to a mythic rank 10 level 20 character, as a new type of mythic system to use for various npc's, or mythic campaigns. This particular class is based very very very loosely one the concept of Rune Lords from rise of the rune lords. We are looking for general feedback on the concept of mythic classes, as well as class specific feedback and suggestions for class specific feats and Rune powers. We have a few rune powers already that are not listed on the linked document as we are still play testing their viability before adding them there. Any feedback and suggestions is greatly appreciated.

Class document Link: Rune Lord Class


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@wintersrage - but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim

this means that the you still get the bonuses from deadly aim when firing at a touch AC, deadly aim specifically states that it's bonuses do not apply to touch attacks. the firearms description is letting you know that even though you are hitting a touch AC it is not considered a touch attack. just thought i'd clarify that for you.


it does in fact cover things other than just rp'ing sex, to include things such as which creatures can produce with which, what the length of pregnancies are which creatures can choose to or not to impregnate or become impregnated. if you look past all the gritty details there are actually usefull topics in the book that seem to be what you are looking for.


here's the system i use to accomodate this, in my world there is an adventurers guild that has badges that bind to the people they are made for. I do not allow magical items that give boosts to the things already included in the "badges". also players must be at least lvl 5 before they can get magical effects added to their weapons or armor and +# enhancements are not allowed to be added to either. master work is removed from the game entirely with this system as well as far as weapons and armor go. i cut back loot a good deal and make finding magical items mean alot more because of it. with this system players get a stat increase every even level instead of every 4 and i do not let them have access to magical items that increase stats by more than +2 (though i do allow the ones that give all physical or all mental still at only a +2 though.) the chart for the progression of the badges is as follows.

1 +1 TO HIT
2 +1 ALL SAVES
3 +1 DAMAGE
4 DR 1
5 +2 HIT
6 +2 ALL SAVES
7 +2 DAMAGE
8 DR 2
9 +3 HIT
10 +3 ALL SAVES
11 +3 DAMAGE
12 DR 3
13 +4 HIT
14 +4 ALL SAVES
15 +4 DAMAGE
16 DR 4
17 +5 HIT
18 +5 ALL SAVES
19 +5 DAMAGE
20 DR 5
ARMOR BONUS = LEVEL /2 rounded down.

This works extremely well at all levels in keeping things balanced with the way the CR's work and is very easy to keep track of. hope it helps.

edit: the plus to hit and damage applies to casters as well, but the bonus damage can only be applied once per round, so in the example of a chain lightning only one of the strikes would have the damage applied, or for magic missle only one missle would have the bonus damage.


also if you are giving your spell casters so many benefits to balance it out you may want to consider giving your melee something, maybe able to ignore armor for a number of attacks per day equal to their combat mod?


i've used a similiar concept for spell books before but the rule was as follows

a wizard can use their spell book to cast from without using up their spells per day. doing so takes a number of rounds equal to 1 plus the spell level being cast. while reading from their spell books in this matter they are considered flat footed and provoke AO's on each round of their casting from every person in melee range. if the wizard is sucessfully hit while casting in this fashion they must make a concentration check DC 10+ damage recieved in order to continue casting. If their casting is interupted they must start over from the beginning to continue casting. Metamagic feats cannot be applied to casting in this fashion. Eschew materials cannot be applies to casting in this fashion.


attempting to make a fey race with heritage from imperial cloud dragons (no eastern settings in my world but the imperial dragons are still there) would like some feedback on the race. (ended up being a 33 point race from the ARG).

Boydran race


the important thing to remember with making a monster specifically for your game is that cr's are only a guide line, knowing your party's strengths and weaknesses is more important. i've had a party of 3 lvl 7's easily take down a cr 12 and then 2 sessions later die to 2 cr 5's. the individual strengths and weaknesses are the important part. If your party is high melee that fight will be fairly easy though definately resource intensive as they'll go through a lot of hp's. your monsters average damage per round is 27 so that's something to keep in mind.


in the write up i put for you i actually removed the armor proficiency as it didn't make sense for a class that would grow extra limbs, extra heads, tails, wings.. figuring out the armor they would have to wear would be a pain. I would consider putting a limitation on the class stating they can only use natural attacks or weapons in one round instead of both, which is easy to explain rp wise cause they are not born with their natural attacks but rather force them upon their bodies so being able to do both at once is outside the scope of what they can achieve.

also if you want to send me a message with your email address i can give you edit privladges on the google doc.


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the only way to do it is to feel it out and figure out what is or isn't balanced once it's written out

as far as theories go on what might be balanced to base it off of? umm high bab classes don't get spells above 4th level mid bab classes generally get up to 6th low bab get up to 9th. mid bab martial classes (as in non spell casters) should get abilities each level. high int classes should have low skills, low int non martial classes should have high skills, hd size is relative to how much of a martial class they are. (non melee shouldn't need the hit points)

that's all the "common sense" stuff that is there from just looking at the existing classes. anything outside of that just throw something together, play around with it and tone it up / down as needed to balance it at each level. i recommend using the combat manager application, putting your class in a party of four and at each level put your party of four against a fight 2 cr's higher. that should give you a good idea of how powerful the class is at each level and make it easier to make tweaks to it.


for my games we just house rule it that resistances stack as long as their source isn't a spell, this doesn't seem to break anything and we've never had a problem with it at all.


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I don't wish to upset anyone and in turn I don't wish to be upset by anyone. I just want to find a way to peacefully create another base or arch-type class. Too much to ask?

xan i make a lot of base classes, i have quite a bit of experience in this, and i can tell you 100% for certain there is no science to it, it is just art. you will never be able to break it down to x feature being worth x feature, it just doesn't balance that way. the only way to do it is to feel it out and figure out what is or isn't balanced once it's written out. People here were trying to tell you that, not insult you or be unproductive.

If you have an idea for a base class you want and feel you can't do it yourself, just put up a request here and someone will most likely be willing to build it for you or help you fix one you've attempted to build that isn't balanced, but no one here is going to have a magical answer to point values cause they just don't exist.


i haven't put in the point cost for evolutions or reworded evolutions so they weren't summoner specific but here's a google doc with my suggested changes to the class as a full class template.

Metamorph


sphen is pretty spot on about it being under powered, you are effectively playing only an eidolon and making it a weak one at that.

Some sort of natural armor progression should be added to the class.

Don't tone down the hit die and bab or your just going to be making it even weaker.

Is there a reason why soul steal only gains a single new class skill when the others get two except for totem, but that gets one plus wild empathy.

to help bring it up to a more balanced level i would recommend giving them a self heal based on their origin type, for instance soul stealers would be able to make a check when a creature dies to absorb some of it's soul for a self heal.

just my thoughts on it, like the class so far, the idea of playing just an eidolon is neat.


the important thing to remember with the armor being dr rule is what it is overcome by, at the higher levels where it seems to get unbalanced the pc's will most likly have the magical or adamantine weapons that will overcome the Dr of the things they are attacking anyway, it is very well balanced as is written and doesn't really need much changing.


only balance fighters need in my opinion is 4 + int mod for saves and a choice between will and reflex as a high save along with fort based on which type of fighter one is playing. maybe an ability they get at level one to select one of the two that gives bonuses based on level to that save so it evens out with being a high save, they are pretty fine with every thing else and don't need balance, they stand their own just fine balance wise.


should be worded something like this, as per the rogue feature advanced talents.

Greater Plasma Surge: At 10th level, and every two levels thereafter, a Blood Reaver can choose one of the following Greater Plasma Surge in place of a Plasma Surge.


you should split it up so that ones that say require 10th level or higher are under a seperate catagory called greater surges, and add the class feature at 10th to allow them to pick greater surges instead of regular ones just like rogue tricks work, i'll look at it more later to help you come up with more surges and to help a bit more with balance, it's almost there now, but for now it's game time so i'll take a look more tomorrow.


the only appropriate alignment for the doctor is true neutral, though he has good tenancies he thinks history is more important than morality, a good person would never get as excited as he does over tragedy, and he cares more about the balance of things than the actual good of them. That's taking all the doctors, not just the newest, he is just as capable of letting someone good die for the balance of things as he is of saving someone's life.


I'm thinking he'd be a samsaran in the pf universe..


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you should make a google document so you can just make the changes on there, it will be easier than looking at multiple posts for the changes


i wasn't suggesting it made the duelist redundant, i was specifically saying that they would benefit from it but not many others would so as it was written by thurin it would be better as an alternate class feature than as a feat. weapon finesse is supposed to go along with things like spiked chains and elven curved blades, and it is fairly safe to say it's intended to go along with two weapon fighting since 2wf is dependant on dex requirements, so limiting it to a single weapon with a hand free doesn't fit the theme of weapon finesse as i see it. I was not intending to be vague i thought the arguments against it applying to only a single weapon had already been made. Out of all the things said so far i still like the idea of improved weapon finesse adding int onto str damage for finesse weapons, additional restrictions geared to specific classes really shouldn't be included.


i have to agree with dabbler here badbird, what your proposing sounds more like an alternate class feature for duelists and less like a finesse feat the more you go into it.


i would think the occupied square they are standing in would technically count as an "attended object", and interacting with something attended automatically breaks invisibility. That would be my interpretation of it, doesn't mean i'm 100% correct, and even if my interpretation is right you can still house rule it otherwise, in which case you would just use the acrobatics rules.


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Quenching: At 9th level, the reaver no longer provokes attacks of opportunity when drinking a flask(or other container of similar size) of blood in combat. Drinking blood from this containing has become a swift action.

i would recommend replacing it with

Reaver Fangs: at ninth level a reaver learns to utilize his energies to grow a set of supernatural fangs. by expending a move action the reaper may grow a set of fangs giving him a bite attack of 1d6 plus strength. On a successfull bite the reaver regains 1d4 plasma points. This bite attack cannot be combined with the greater plasma surge Blood Drain. These fangs count as magical for the purposes of damage reduction. these fangs cannot be concealed by magical means, and are too large to keep hidden with a closed mouth. Retracting these fangs is a free action.


the movement through the occupied square would juts break invisibility. There really isn't a check they could do to avoid that.


you could however use the 3.5 dieties and demigods to build him into a diety if you wanted to.


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i don't think there are systems in pathfinder that can reproduce that level of epicness...


few changes i'd suggest.. plasma pool = level plus con instead of level *2 plus con plus 5, make anything that can do actual ability score damage or drain a greater power surge like harald suggested about splitting them between regular and greater and making greaters available at 10. change the blood scent to state that they can sense there is blood in the area, but can't pin point it's location, and can't know whose it is. I'd also make scarred start at 4th and be every 4 thereafter so 4,8,12,16,20 ending at +5 nat armor. Also you should explain the system for how exactly they feed, cause it seems to me like the blood drain ability which states you drink the blood would replenish plasma instead of costing them?


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just from a quick glance a few things.. 1 your saves are off... 2, a high bab class, with all martial proficiencies, amazing abilities, fast movement, blind sense at level 3 (through scent) rage at level 2, stat boosts... you need to figure out where you need to tone this class down, as it is there would never be a reason to play any other class in a game with one of these cause they are very very over powered.. It is a neat concept, i like the concept a lot actually, but the class really does need to be cut back alot for balance.


we house ruled it that darkvision was inverted vision the eyes just developed weird so that dark was seen as light and light as dark, creatures that lived in both worlds, like dwarves, evolved so their eyes would go back and forth between the two, but we gave them all the downside that abrupt exposure to light or dark would take 3 rounds for their eyes to adjust, giving them -6, -4, -2 to everything based on site for those three rounds. made for some interesting fighting, and might help with your evolution theme.


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Thus the "You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand."

must have completely overlooked that line, though admittedly i don't see the point of being a dex fighter without two weapon fighting since it's built around dex. I can see a 1 handed rogue maybe since sneak attack should be a big deal of their damage anyway, but the damage gap for a 1h dex fighter would be huge compared to a 2h str fighter.


bad the reason it doesn't balance is two weapon fighting, those feats require high dex so if you can ignore strength all together you will have more damage output than someone doing str and a half with a 2 hander since you'd have an additional attack that did full dex (with the double slice feat)


here's what i got out of everything said in the thread so far..

improved weapon finesse
Requirements: dex 13, int 13, weapon finesse
Benefits: add your int modifier to damage as well as your str. modifier. This only applies to weapons that qualify for weapon finesse.
Normal: only your str. mod is applied to weapon damage.


for those that thinks it's unbalanced for dex, i propose drop all req's other than weapon finesse, call it improved finesse and make the dex damage that is added in place of str. precision damage.


ok i see what you mean, sorry your first response didn't mention weapon special qualities or i missed it entirely. You can easily drop the +level % from my crit system and instead have weapon crit percentages equal to 5% per crit range so a 20 is 5% a 19-20 is 10% a 15-20 is 30%. that keeps the weapons meaning something to you. For myself my players never seem to care as much about weapon special qualities and instead base 99% of their decisions on crit range so i'd rather leave it out entirely.


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The main problem I see with most of these suggestions is that if you take the critical threat range and damage multiplier away from weapons, there really isn't any way to differentiate the most commonly used weapons, aside from damage type. Battle axes, heavy maces, longswords, morningstars, and warhammers all do the exact same thing, and three of those are martial weapons.

so your main problem is that a RPG only has role play differences between weapons with changes to the crit system? yeah i can see not wanting any rp in my rpg's...


red i like to use fumbles and here's what we do for ours, just roll a percentile and use these results.

1-25 = miss
26-50 = drop weapon (unarmed or natural attacks = fall prone
51-75 = attack ally (you reroll an attack against an adjacent ally still having to hit their ac, and still able to crit them)
76-87 = attack self (you roll an attack against your own flat footed ac.)
88-95 = break weapon (weapon gains the broken condition)
96-99 = confused (player loses their next turn.)
100 = roll twice on this table.


i don't have d20's have anything to do with crits for my game, every hit has a chance to be a "lucky shot" as it was put earlier, and the system is rather simple that we use.

when you score a hit you roll a percentile, you have a base chance of 5+level to score a critical hit (a level 13 with no crit feats would have a 18% chance to crit as an example where a level 20 would have a 25% chance) improved crit adds 5% keen adds 5% (the two still do not stack), feats and class features that add to your crit confirmation roll add a percentage equal to the bonus they give, and the samurai class feature that gives them an auto criot they just have to confirm instead adds 50% for that one attack. fighters at level 20 have their class feature that auto confirms crits replaced with this.

Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, a fighter chooses one weapon, such as the longsword, greataxe, or longbow. Any attacks made with that weapon that hit have their crit percentage chance rolled twice, and they take the better roll, and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type.

hope this system helps a bit for what you were looking for?


never make an item assuming your pc's can't get it.. what happens if the npc dies in combat? you should always consider even when it's a friendly npc "do i want my players to possibly get their hands on this?"


i think i'd have to see it clear and concise i kinda get what you mean but without the clarifications I'm not 100% on it. Alternately if you wanted to give actual effects instead of bonuses something i've been thinking of doing with my system is at levels 6, 11, 16, and 20 giving a magic style feat where you select abilities from the items in the game and make them available at that level. I was thinking of just basing it off the wonderous items, making magic style feats for minor (lvl 6) medium (lvl 11) and major wonderous items (lvl 16) and then at lvl 20 something between major and artifact. as an example at lvl 6 i select the magic style feat "Elven Kind" which gives my charactor a +5 circumstance bonus on stealth checks as per a cloak of elven kind. I'd have to go through and write up all the feats available, which would not include any AC or stat bonuses items, but i think that's close to what you were saying?


side note with my leveling system, in our game players get ability score boosts every even level instead of every four levels, ends up being 5 extra ability points by level 20 (so one shy of a +6 ability increase item.)


cas while i like the general idea of that it gives the players a way to get stuff too easily. if they can use these points to purchase any magic item that could feasibly be an inherent bonus instead of an item it will open up room to way too many debates. ("why can't i have my feet with a perma haste like boots of haste?") if you're goign outside of giving them just straight bonuses you should still be in control of magic items, such as availabilities of different things based on city's and what not, so if players really want a certain item there could be an entire side quest just to get to a city that sells it or to get it back from the tomb it was lost in.. just being able to flat out get stuff is too easy in my opinion.
As i said though, "in my opinion" doesn't make your idea wrong, just throwing in my 2 cents.

summary: straight stat boost = ok to me, magic effects = shouldn't be handed out.


yeah i like keeping things for my game that way :)


here's what i am using for a low magic world, the bonus are effects from house clasps the adventuring party is wearing. the bonuses seem to balance out really well and the players love it cause they get something new every level.

1 +1 TO HIT
2 +1 ALL SAVES
3 +1 DAMAGE
4 DR 1
5 +2 HIT
6 +2 ALL SAVES
7 +2 DAMAGE
8 DR 2
9 +3 HIT
10 +3 ALL SAVES
11 +3 DAMAGE
12 DR 3
13 +4 HIT
14 +4 ALL SAVES
15 +4 DAMAGE
16 DR 4
17 +5 HIT
18 +5 ALL SAVES
19 +5 DAMAGE
20 DR 5

ARMOR BONUS = LEVEL /2


I am not looking for changes to the encounter, i know the rules for making it are fudged for a few abilities, i'm just trying to get an idea of what CR people would place this as.

Morgrith CE Demon


displacer beasts weren't reprinted in pathfinder, i have one that i made a cr 16 for pathfinder if you want i can put in in a google doc for you, otherwise there's a thread where someone on the forums makes monsters for people and he's extremely good at it. though just applying the advanced template to the D&D 3.5 displacer beast would probably suit your needs since pathfinder is pretty compatible with 3.5

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