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Protoman wrote:
You're totally able to sunder/disarm/trip with kinetic whip/blade (source). Those maneuvers are attack actions and can be used with any melee weapon. For kinetic fist, it'll entirely be dependent on if you can do it with unarmed/natural attack. Unless something specifically disallows it, by default you can. For trip and disarm, there's no damage involved. For sunder, remember to halve the energy damage against hardness.

That's exactly the kind of source I was looking for!

The Mortonator wrote:

Right. Sorry, I have dysgraphia so sometimes I mess two words up.

Anyways, as for Kinetic Proficiency... *coughs* I editted for KoP III but admittedly have other things vying for my attention and some things slipped in after I had already proofread. Still, excuses aside I'll take some responsibly as nixing these kinds of feats and talents was my job. My bad.

Ahh, that makes sense. I've seen you around the Kineticist threads.

This clarified (I think) all of my questions. I honestly can't remember if there was anything else I was confused on.
Whenever I take these things up with my DM, he's easily skeptical. Reasonably so, I have asked for some home rulings on things and my friends used to play a lot of 3.5 in PF.
And I regularly default to the 'less powerful logic' of whatever is being discussed.

Thanks for the responses everyone!
I greatly appreciate the speedy and well reasoned responses!


Part of what further convoluted my opinion on this was a feat that N Jolly made in Kineticists of Porphyra III.
I understand he is not Mark S. but I respect his work immensely.
(That said, I'll remove the following quoted feat if he'd prefer it. I don't wanna agitate anyone!)

wrote:

Kinetic Proficiency

Prerequisite: Devastating infusion, kinetic blade, or kinetic fist; Weapon Focus (kinetic blast)

Benefit: You may use devastating infusion, dual blades, kinetic blade, kinetic fist, or kinetic whip as part of a coup de grace, disarm, sunder, or trip attempt.

Normal: You may only use these blasts as part of an attack action, full attack, or charge.

I assumed I could already sunder with K. Fist, and the Kinetic Blast in general honestly.

This basically made me lean towards the idea that there were things I couldn't do with K. Fist.


The Mortonator wrote:
Unless you are doing down the cheatsy line of the aesthetic style.

Wait, are you referring to the Elemental Ascetic? Or the term aesthetic?

Is there something cheatsy about that archetype?
or is there an aesthetic style that is cheatsy?
If it's the latter, then something has gone over my head.
^^'

I do plan on using the Elemental Ascetic archetype though.


Hey all,

I've been trying to figure out what Kinetic Fist counts as.
Is it a melee attack?
Or a Kinetic Blast?

Since you use it as part of an attack action, a charge action, or a full-attack action; that makes me think it's not a melee attack, but a Kinetic Blast.
But your blast is added damage, to your unarmed/natural attacks. That makes me perceive it as a natural attack!

Reasons I ask are...
Do I add a weapon enhancement/special abilites on an Amulet of Mighty Fist w/ Kinetic Fist to the roll?
If I'm level 1 using Kinetic Fist (with a physical blast) is the damage...
1d3+1d6+1?
or is it just
1d3+1d6?
Do I add Strength to Kinetic Fist? (I know I don't add Con)
Can I not normally Sunder w/ Kinetic Fist/Blade/Whip?
Since the blast is 'added' damage, would only my unarmed be multiplied w/ K. Fist?

Apologies for all the questions, I could just be overthinking this.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:

If he multi classes his doesn't get additional flurry bonuses. You cannot pick them up with twf feats as he isn't twf.

His BAB will still go up making his to hit go up while flurrying but he'll only get additional attacks as normal.

So it would be 6/6/1.

Right, this one I was a little more confident with.

Thanks for the second opinion.


Though, I have another question then.
Let's say a Zen Archer multi-classes after Level 7 and becomes a Zen Archer 7/Fighter 1.
His Flurry base would still be 6/6/1 at the very least because he is still effectively getting TWF style additional attacks because of what you previously stated.
Now, at Level 8, the Monk gets another attack because of Imp. TWF.
That's why the Monk's base flurry at Level 8 is 6/6/1/1.

Would the Zen archer need that level in Monk-Zen Archery to get that 4th attack?
He couldn't just pick up the feat and say "I have it now!" That would be ridiculous.
Would the multi-classing monk then be limited in his number of flurries based on his new classes BAB factoring in?
Monk 7 = +7
Fighter 1 = +1
TWF = -2
Z. Archer 7/Fighter 1 = 6/6/1

I know the line 'A zen archer’s flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level.' should be enough to convince me, it's just I see the numbers and I get concerned at interpretations of phrasing and numbers differing.

(I do apologize about being convoluted and difficult. I have a friend who likes multi-classing and there's some numbers I just want to make sure are straight.


Claxon wrote:

Flurry of Blows does not require two weapons to function. A monk can technically flurry with only a single weapon. So yes, it works just fine.

A 6th level Zen Archer Monk gets +4/+4/-1.

From Core Rule Book FAQ:

Quote:

Monk Flurry of Blows: When I use flurry of blows, can I make all of the attacks with just one weapon, or do I have to use two, as implied by the ability functioning similarly to Two-Weapon Fighting?

You can make all of your attacks with a single monk weapon. Alternatively, you can replace any number of these attacks with an unarmed strike. This FAQ specifically changes a previous ruling made in the blog concerning this issue.

I see, I did think about that, but I guess I couldn't put 2 and 2 together and make my own answer. Perspective is a wonderful thing, as is research.

Thanks for that.


A Zen Archer in Pathfinder can Flurry of Blows, like a Monk.
A Monk can Flurry of Blows an incredible number of times because his BAB is based on his level when using Flurry, AND he's gaining bonus attacks because he is 'effectively' 2-weapon fighting.

So, a Monk of Level 6 can Flurry with 4/4/-1 because 6-2/6-2/6-2-5.
Can a Zen Archer of Level 6 ALSO Flurry with 4/4/-1?
Would he not simply get 4/4?

He's not using two weapons, but these two stipulations make me question the math/logic.

"A zen archer’s flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level."
and
"Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon)."

If I assume these are true in a way that overrides the logic of flurry, then the fact that 2 weapons are not being used is invalid.

(I'm honestly willing to accept either, it's just I JUST found out how the Flurry numbers are calculated and this is bothering me.)