seekerofshadowlight's page

I really don't see the problem with a champion of the tribe, responsible for leading them and enforcing the traditions of the ancestors, empowered by the spirits of said ancestors, being a Paladin. It does not require gods, or heavy metal armor, or even a mount, just a warrior devoted to Law and Good.

Mike McArtor's 'Not Your Father's Do-Gooder' Class Acts article in Dragon #323 is a good example.

That article was pure gold.

@ shifty, you could call him that but that is not what he is. He can do things a fighter can not, like lay on hands, and call upon his granted power to smite evil and the demonic. He may look and dress much like the fighter , but that does not make him a fighter.

I disagree, again you are assuming at lest late middle ages gear is required for the paladin to exist. Take that thought out. Some of those cultures did indeed have coded laws, some very complex. What keeps them from having laws or codes? All those things existed long before the tech of Rome, which is far below the tech you seem to think a paladin must have.

I am still simply not seeing why you can not have these things outside of one small type of civilization.

As to them being ranger like, well all the weapons are the same. You have the chorice of Short bows, Long and short spears, kukries and falcuta's for the most part. How does that force you into one class? That is simply the weapons they have to pick from. A ranger could do all that, or a monk ( who does not use the book weapons), a fighter, a paladin or just about anything else.

A ranger is less equipped to deal with spellcasters, demons and the like then a paladin however, but they would work in a pinch. But again gear does not make your class.

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On what classes on the homebrew. No ninja its an archetype not a class :) The setting handles mystic power of any type very strict. So no ki powers for the most part. I would happily re fluff it as no magic on the ones I could however and allow your rogue to take them. Or if your really set upon the mystic rogue then we could come up with a tradition for your order and a place it came from.

The caviler is allowed the same is just an archetype and one that fits, normal setting weapons only however you can't have what does not exist. So that also means the gunslinger is out as the weapon and the class is a no go, I would allow all classes to take a grit feat however if ya wanted the mechanic that bad. I have not looked over the class all that well but if it could work with a bow then it might be allowed.

I guess we will disagree as gear does not make a paladin and you seem to think it does. A tribe culture can indeed have "codeifed laws" a clerical hierarchy and yes even a state religion as tribes rarely have more then one.

I do not feel nor does anything in the class however have to have any of those things you seem to think it says it must have. Thy do not need those things, but may be more common with them.

And what did I say that makes it seem more ranger? The championing Gods or the protecting the villages from the demon worshipers and savage cannibals that seek to destroy or corrupt them? Yeah nothing that says paladin there at all. Again it seems to me you are stuck not on what it does but on what gear they use.

I guess if I played a paladin in Golarion you think I have to use heavy armor and take a mount, I couldn't be light armored and use a scimitar and go more agile fighter then tank. The class simply does not require me to be mounted, use a heavy lance , long sword and full plate.

No rangers are a different thing all together. In My homebrew laws are more the realm of Monks. The paladin class works as written, I changed nothing at all, other then what weapons and armor the setting has. How does this hurt the paladin any more then say the fighter?

The class like most melee classes have all armor type and martial weapons. I am not sure what changing any of that has to do with it no longer being a paladin.I am not sure how you read what is nothing more then Gear changes and came to the conclusion it wasn't a paladin. I think you are have idea that a Paladin can only exist in settings and area's of a setting that have a very heavy European feel.

A paladin is not about what gear he has or what civilization he is born unto any more then a ranger, a rouge of a cleric class is limited by such.
They can be born in vast cities, in the far reaches of the frozen north, upon the sea or any other place. It simply has no bearing on if they are a paladin or not.

Yora wrote:

Since my campaign is alignment free and set in a tribal society, I don't have paladins of any kind. Much easier to leave them out completely.

True.

In a tribal society, how would they have evolved such a 'modern' class?

Good thinking :)

Eh, My homebrew is Early iron age mostly nomadic or small outlaying "Villages" and they have paladins.They are often enough solitary more then the rare Order. Often championing the cause of one of the Gods and watching over remote villages from Savages and the demon tainted tribes.

A paladin or knight is not "Modern" those are just trapping you think of them in. My setting does not have plate armor, large two handed swords, printing presses or even horses. Yet Paladins fit in very well riding axe breaks, armed with spear and Falcuta, Hide shields and Lamellar armor with leather skirts.

It may not be your idea image of a paladin but the class works very well within the setting.

I don't think paladins need alignments to exist, but a strict code should be enforced. Now it is hard to justify a Chaotic paladin or antipaladin IMHO. Both(pally and anti-pally) have stricts codes, and I don't see someone that is chaotic(which is why the CE anti-pally thing is hard for me to accept) following a strict code for a long time.

I'll agree with most of that. As I have said before you can rip out Al's and it does not change the paladin a single bit. However, the Anti-paladins really does not have a "code" its more or less a paint by numbers bullet points of the CE alignment. Its more or less a single " Be as evil and foul as you damned well want. Bring ruin and death and amuse yourself with suffering" guideline then hardest rules.

And anti-paladin who wasn't as vile as he could be brakes his "Code" even if its not really a code. He simply looses his mojo as he is not being as evil and vile as he could.

I can agree with that, I feel it would need more then just fluff changes however as its still just an evil paladin. The paladin is its own thing, I feel its opposite should be its own thing as well.

Both really. I Don't mind the CE thing, but its just a backward paladin which to me cheapens them both. Its and "Evil" paladin, except I do not believe in evil paladins. I could get behind a fallen paladin or an evil champion or something but it was very meh.

Heh I know , just messing with ya. Honestly I am not a fan of the Anti-paladin, it seemed a cheap cop-out to me. I do not think I will ever use them , I know I would never allow them ( No CE pc's) I did like the old Blackguard however. To me it was a good fit, a fallen paladin and all.

A drow city? I could be wrong, he may have came from Nex or something.

I Have to agree. This is just the kinda thing I wanted.

To elaborate upon what I said. The reason so many people see LG as "ultimate good" and CE as "ultimate evil" is simple really.

LG, "She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished."

Ce, is more or less a sociopath he is the Joker. He does what he wants because he wants to with no regard to how it effects others. He has no feelings for death or pain he caused, unless it makes him laugh.

So we have on one had LG as everything a "Good" person is always told to aim for. On the other had we are shown everything a good person finds horrid and revolting.

You can normally find something redeemable or human about NE or LE. Its hard to find anything like that from someone who is CE.

Well played. I must now have it as I simply love the ones that come with the BB.

I am gonna disagree. NG is simply someone who has not picked a side so to speak. They are not the ultimate good but the middle ground "base" good.

Yes I misspoke there. However CE unlike LE and NE has no limits. There is nothing it will not do or stoop to. Nothing sacrificed, nothing out of bounds.

NG isn't Ultimate good. Its freaking Neutral doing good when its not to much trouble. NG, N and NE are the most commons alignments. They are the middle ground.

I do agree Anti-paladins would have a short shelf life, but whatever powers them really does not care. It dies , if it was really useful we can use that soul. If need be we can always make another or bring it back.

Shifty wrote:

The Anti-Paladins are not divine champions of a CE (or any other E) deity. They are EXEMPLARS of EVIL.

So this is why the other alignments don't get their cookie.

Because only Chaotic Evil is really evil. Asmodeus? What a poseur! He couldn't exemplify evil his way out of a paper bag.

No but there is a reason Demons are CE and devils are not. Devils at lest have a plan and a mission. Demons just want to kill, main and ruin.

@ Raven , the Paladin is the embodiment of LG, but is so LG most LG being can't hope to live up to it. The paladin would be the very sam if you cut out the Al system as the paladins code and what is it is the base of what it means to be LG.

The aliment system is a reflection of a paladin in this case. Not the other way around.

@ Kutgan. No its not the Al system its the code. The thing LG is based upon. Paladins are not based upon LG. Lg is based upon them.

I can't understand how you could be a champion of NG, NG does not champion anything that is why they are Neutral. They are the middle ground, The same with CG. Your good and , well chaotic. You are not organized, you are not a knightly order in any form. You are random guys doing what you want because you want to do it. Hang order or a "cause" or leadership if it gets in the way.

Just what is so must do about CG? What is so special it calls into being "paladins' To champion it? Nothing. Not a thing. Anti-paladins at lest have a reason to be, something they embody.

LG and CE also have something very few other Al's have. A unity in what they are. LN, LE, NG, CG, CN, NE all are very broad. LG and CE are not broad, they are very narrow and very set. The top and bottem.

Why are the 7 other alignments unable to get their own Champion base class ?

Why should they? Paladins are not champions of LG alignment. NOr are Anti-paladins alignment champions. They are Lawful and Good but more Lawful and good then LG itself is. They are the embodiment of ideas more pure then LG. Most paladins can't live up to those standards much less other LG people.

The mistake you are making is you think they exist because of the alignment system. The alignment system is merely a reflection of the paladin. Strip out alignment and you know what that changes? Nothing, the paladin acts the very same.

Then the question becomes: is the profit available from selling additional products to "people like me" likely to be greater than the profit lost to people like "Pete, Mike and Larry", who might choose to stick with PFBB instead of moving on to the full system?

That one is easy. Keeping with the established line and bringing more costumers to that is always more profitable. Every sale lost to the new line huts the over all company profit. People like you who have no interest in the product are not lost as you never where.

Is it really that confusing? One can play either 'BB' of 'full' Pathfinder. Both products already exist now!

Yes it is. People get confused over the pathfinder setting and the freaking Rules. Right now there is no confusion as the beginner box works with the full line. It is not a "Basic" product. You can use it and run level 1-5 stuff with no issue at all.

If you add in a "Basic" that does not work with the setting books or the RPG line you just add more confusion.

But this is obviously false. I'm a "new player" for the BB, and I would *never* have been a customer for "everything else". And I'm not alone.

The question (as I've already noted) simply is whether there are enough folks like me to make *expanding* the range of BB products profitable.

Every new drinker of Coke is not necessarily one less drinker of Diet Coke.

You are still using that false analogy. Coke vs diet coke is not the same thing. Pontiac vs Saturn is. It costs the parent company the same cost for both products yet sales are less because each sale is worth half as much then if they sold just one line. Sure not everyone will bu it but they make more profit from each sale.

Look up the history of TSR, its death was caused by lower profits from competing lines. The Auto industry about went under because of the same thing.

Is it really that difficult to make products for both BB and full PF? It seems that many products already produced for PF can be used with BB 'as is'. And the BB DM book includes guidelines for using existing low level PF adventures with the BB.

I think that the difficulty here is being exaggerated.

Yes it is and no it is not. Each new book for a new line needs new workers. You are doubling production to keep up. Each new book makes less profit for double the cost or you use the same people to make both products meaning reduced product for both lines and less profit for each line.

You are making two games. Not two lines of the same game.

I like you would like a lighter game. I however understand some of the issues involved and you seem to be ignoring them. If you do searches you will find the Paizo staff saying more or less what I am telling you.

And Good and Evil are Ethical Alignments.
And Lawful and Chaotic are Personality Alignments.

That is the way I have always looked at it as well. Most people tend to be Neutral.

Actually, Kelsey, tell me: what is Batman's alignment?

You would first need to pick which batman comic and which writer first. But batman does give us the Joker which pretty much should be a pic in the book above CE

Gorbacz wrote:

You bring me Coke and Diet Coke, I give you 32X vs. Sega CD vs. Saturn :)

Um, okay, I'm not sure what that means. :/

My point simply was that there are some people who will *never* want to purchase or play 'full' PF (or who have *quit* 'full' PF/3.5 because of the crunch, etc.), but who would want to purchase and play BB PF. In that case, supporting BB is not 'splitting' the fanbase, but instead expanding it.

Ah new gamer :) I got the old school reference Gorbacz :) I had one of those.

It is splintering the base and cutting into profits. It is not people like you with no interest in PF that it takes, but people who might have moved on to the full game, people who they might bring in and products they might buy. They have not lost you, as you never planned to be a customer. They might loose Pete, Mike and Larry who might move on to the full game however.

Farther more they confuse the customer base, and each new player for the new "Basic" line is one lost customer for everything else including the Ap lines which is the money earner. It takes roughly the same amount of time and money to make both "lines" yet now each line earns less profit as people now buy one or the other. Stings for the basic line are not useful or wanted buy full RPg gamers and Full RPG products are not wanted by the basic gamers.

multi care brand issue. They had cars that where more or less the same car but in 3 "lines" all owned by the same parent company. Chevy vs Pontiac vs Saturn vs who else knows. Each sale hurt more then it helped as each sell only was a faction of what they could have gotten if they just had the one car line.

Again having two lines that compete is bad. Expanding the BB into more boxes and more rules is a direct competition with the RPG line. This is fully ground for a 3pp really as no company wants to cut down profits by lessing there own sells with there own product.

Splinting the fan base is not "More profitable". I myself would not mind a more rules light game, but that is not what we have. Anyone saying breaching the BB out into yet more boxes and a second line is not splinting the fan base and lowering profits is simply fooling themselves.

Ok I am gonna bump This as I should have already done so. I Had more issues and an HD crash ,which took out all of my data. Life seems to be settling down and if there is still any interest In this I will start a game after the holidays.

Sorry for vanishing and all.

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

The are however endless and never stop.

Doesn't mean they succeed - look how many undead are out there well past their expiration dates. That the Inevitables don't know when to quit makes them seem more pathetic than terrifying.

Not the same thing. If and when somethings number comes up they do not stop till it is balanced. Over all its not something they worry with all that much. But is something is noticed your days are indeed numbered.

The are however endless and never stop.

That Ninja and samurai are " Alt classes" based only upon the name they have.

What, you don't see a difference between those three classes without the alignment restrictions?

I do but some folks seem snot to. One is a champion for Good and justice. The embodiment of LG. The other two are Holy warriors of a god.

If you want a holy warrior of a god or of any Aliment. You already have two classes made to fill that role.

Then what is the point of the cleric and the inquisitor? That is the role they already fill.

You do Know the game is built around 15 point buy right?

Humm you using pathfinder or 3.5 rules?

You have always been able to delete and repost. Copy and paste makes it pretty easy to do so.

I'll Update HP's in a bit. I have been keeping them in the game tab and not in my profile, But I'll update both.

Heh, to many Old school GM's a player using wish is playing with fire :)

I would peg your actions as NE honestly. You might think they are good and lawful, but they really are not. You are leaning toward LE but from what we have been shown I have to put you at NE.

There was a like thread at the same time as this one. It simply fell into the archives.

Why would you do that for your stats, ever?

I tend to do that. I never use stats under 10 and like more rounded pc,s not one stat supermen.

...straw man to who?

Ya know every time someone claims someones else argument is a "Straw man" I can't help but translate it to "I know you are but, what am I"

Wait! Are we doing the wave? No one told me we were doing the wave.

Yep some folks will love it. I will not run or play in such a game however.

Honestly if it bug you that bad you need to drop out or just straight up say "I have proof someone is cheating and have tried to contact you ( The GM) without having to call them out. But them cheating is a problem for me and if it does not stop I will need to step out of this game"

15 point buy could work, I just dislike them greatly. A 10 point buy screws everyone over who is not a single state caster if ya ask me.

You have one other option. Drop out of the game. Those are the only four options you really have.

Woh Nerco. I will point out again that the "Code" of the anti-paladin is pretty much almost word for word the description of CE. I myself see no point in a "paladin" of every Al or an Anti-paladin of every Al. Paladins are LG so his counterpart should be CE.

The black raven wrote:

I dislike that so many Rogue archetypes do away with trapfinding. Doubly so because it means that there is almost zero archetype for the Ninja, even though some of the Rogue archetypes would fit the class perfectly.

Considering the ninja really is just a rogue archetype...

See someone other then me said that this time.

PvE games other players do not wait to ambush and gank you after you and the guys you teamed up with completed the Dungeon.

You can't justify it, it is what it is. Bulling and rewarding folks who take things from other players.

Hope you enjoy But, I will not be wasting my time or money on such a game.

It means it rewards those who put in time to be the best killers, those who team up with other players to bully and take from those who are to weak to defend what they have worked for.

That is what it means.

We just kinda hoped a game based upon Golarion would be something more then Pvp's f~%@ with non-pvp 's. It seems the game will reward those who attack the folks doing PvE while punishing those who just want to hang out with folks and ya know enjoy the game.

Highlanders.......

Wizards,Alchemists, some oracles and druids as well as some witches off the top of my head.

But, if this is for a villain or NPc for a home setting. Well anyone you want. How or way they are as they are is up to you, Artifact, drunk the blood of an ageless dragon, the gods like him, son of something ageless or whatever feels right for the story.