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I am torn between these two.

it is important to note that both versions will probably be used with a monk chassis who gets Wisdom as an alternate to-hit score (similar to weapon finesse) and an in-built enhancement bonus to attack aligned with the AC Bonus ability (+1/+2/+3/+4/+5 at 4th/8th/12th/16th/20th) - thus, even as both eschew virtual-full-BAB-less-two, most of the accuracy difficulties ought to be mitigated.

the "natural attack" version (8.5) is neat because it is arguably the least intensive change - how it interacts with the rest of the game is pretty straightforward. that each attack is made at the same to-hit bonus - the highest! - means less attacks but more effective ones. also, only a single number to remember. what is new below is the unarmed damage (hence 8.5 not 8.0). starting at 1d6, and progressing to 2d6/3d6/4d6/5d6 at 'dead-BAB' levels 5/9/13/17, makes each level offensively meaningful. further, the increased number of dice (rather than just die type) sets this up for the vital strike line very nicely - which i might just throw on top at levels 6/11/16.

Flurry of Blows (version 8.5):


"Natural Attack"

01: +0/+0 at 1d6
02: +1/+1
03: +2/+2
04: +3/+3
05: +3/+3 at 2d6
06: +4/+4
07: +5/+5
08: +6/+6/+6
09: +6/+6/+6 at 3d6
10: +7/+7/+7
11: +8/+8/+8
12: +9/+9/+9
13: +9/+9/+9 at 4d6
14: +10/+10/+10
15: +11/+11/+11/+11
16: +12/+12/+12/+12
17: +12/+12/+12/+12 at 5d6
18: +13/+13/+13/+13
19: +14/+14/+14/+14
20: +15/+15/+15/+15

the "whirlwind" version (9.0), though unorthodox, has a lot of 'cool factor' going for it. to the extent that it abstracts multiple attacks means it will interact with the current rule system strangely. like it's counterpart above, the math was designed to be easy, which is a plus. finally, the idea above (upthread two posts) to target Reflex instead of AC for 1 ki point gives the monk even more options in terms of accuracy.

Flurry of Blows (version 9.0):



01: +0 at 1d6 (2 foes)
02: +1
03: +2 at 2d6
04: +3
05: +3 at 3d6 (3 foes)
06: +4
07: +5 at 4d6
08: +6
09: +6 at 5d6 (4 foes)
10: +7
11: +8 at 6d6
12: +9
13: +9 at 7d6 (5 foes)
14: +10
15: +11 at 8d6
16: +12
17: +12 at 9d6 (all foes)
18: +13
19: +14 at 10d6
20: +15


which one do you folks like better, version 8 or 9?

throwing some ideas at you.

consider this:

Marking is a move action (swift with feat), an extension of the aid another rules, deliverable via any social skill (DC 10), which applies a -2 penalty to hit/DC to any attack/spell that does not include the marker, for one round. In order to take effect, the marker must attack their victim in the same round.

Marks do not stack - the newest always replaces the oldest.

Diplomacy: effect lasts up to 1 minute.
Bluff: effect transposes one ally as the marker.
Intimidate: effect broadcasts to all enemies within 30 feet.

i'm with Da'ath.

don't force, discourage.

also, consider allowing Sense Motive to play a part.

not my jam, but cool concept.

what is the DC of splashing witchfire if no spell is sacrificed? this is unclear in your document.

why no familiar?

also, what if you set up his spellcasting like an Arcanist (prepared/spontaneous hybrid)? this seems appropriate given his need of both INT and CHA. further, what if his spells known was keyed to INT, where his spell DCs were keyed to CHA?

finally, the sentence under witchfire touch attack "so long as he has at least one witchfire remaining" is totally redundant.

fair enough. i will hold the question in my mind about that system's reconciliation of the contributing factors of 'armor' and 'dodge' creating a single defense score called 'reflex'...

half damage on a miss is pretty bad-ass, as is being able to target a high-AC enemy's potentially-much-lower reflex save. thus the cost of 1 ki point. to boot, it can be visualized as the monk simply moving faster, which is thematically the same as the extra ki attack, which this would replace.

ki pool (alternate) wrote:

A monk who reaches 4th level gains a ki pool with a number of points in it equal to half his monk level plus his wisdom bonus (if any). This replenishes on a daily basis.

While the monk retains one or more points in his pool, he may make a ki strike when fighting unarmed or using a ki-sensitive weapon. He may also exhaust his ki pool to move with deadly speed and agility. By expending one point from his ki pool while flurrying, in lieu of making an attack roll, the monk may have each target of his flurry instead roll a Reflex saving throw for half damage. Alternatively, the monk may expend one ki point to increase his fast movement bonus by +20 for 1 round. Finally, he may expend one ki point to grant himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round. All of these abilities are activated as a swift action.

Ki pool is a supernatural ability.

or maybe the switch from targeting AC to targeting Reflex (for half) can be what happens when you charge your flurry with a ki point:

ki pool wrote:
A monk may expend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action while using his flurry of blows ability. In lieu of rolling an attack roll, all of the monk's targets instead must make a Reflex save. If they fail this save, they take full damage from the flurry; if they succeed, they take half damage from the flurry.

this is brilliant.

i think i want to change the wording of Sleight to the same wording you have for Aim. i like the mechanic of having other skills essentially sub in for Bluff to feint. is there an Intelligence-based skill that could be used to feint?

changes from above:

1) INT not double-dipped (thx Ciaran)
2) skill action economy increased (thx Kekkres)
3) the 'skill mastery' advanced talent (above) simply included (and expanded)

Skill Mastery (version 5):


The rogue is the undisputed master of skills. Whenever using a skill for which she has invested maximum ranks, she gains a competence bonus to her check equal to half her rogue level (minimum +1).

At 3rd level, the rogue chooses a number of skills equal to her Intelligence bonus (minimum one). These skills become class skills. Whenever she uses one of these skills, she may either roll twice and take the better result, or simply take 10 on the roll, even if distractions would otherwise hinder her from doing so. Every odd rogue level thereafter (at 5th, 7th, 9th, etc.), she may choose another skill to be a skill mastery skill.

At 7th level, when using a skill mastery skill, the rogue may perform any action that is normally a standard action as a move action.

At 11th level, the rogue may treat all skills as class skills, may use any skill untrained, and may take 10 using any skill even if distractions would ordinarily prevent her.

At 15th level, when using a skill mastery skill, the rogue may perform any action that is normally a move action as a swift action.

At 19th level, when using a skill mastery skill, the rogue may perform any action that is normally a swift action as an immediate action.


01- Sneak Attack, Skill Mastery, Trapfinding
02- Rogue Talents, Evasion
03- Skill Mastery, Trap Sense
04- Rogue Talent, Uncanny Dodge
06- Rogue Talent
07- Skill Mastery
08- Rogue Talent, Improved Uncanny Dodge
10- Advanced Talents, Rogue Talent
11- Skill Mastery


more robust but worth the extra paragraphs?

this wouldn't be necessary unless you reeled in the good save in addition to boosting the bad save. narrowing the gap between good and bad save, while keeping the good save mathematically intact, is an idea i am interested in.

before factoring in attributes, the difference moves from 6 to 2 (+12 minus +6 vs +12 minus +10), or from 30% to 10%, at the upper limit, and stays constant (at 10%) through the lower levels.

after factoring in attributes, is there a good reason not to allow two attributes vie for substantiating the base save? we are talking about getting ST, INT, CHA to 'count' for saves rather than be independent from them.

bad idea?

fine spiced dried meat rolled in a mint leaf

nate lange wrote:

Graceful Combatant

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, +1 BAB
Benefit: You may apply your Dex modifier in place of your Str modifier on damage rolls you make with any weapon that benefits from weapon finesse. This bonus is not increased if the weapon is used in two hands but is halved for an off-hand weapon.

Slashing Grace
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.
Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls even though it isn't a light weapon and you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler’s or a duelist’s precise strike). The weapon must be appropriately sized for you in order to gain these benefits.

Double Precision
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting, Graceful Combatant
Benefit: When using the Graceful Combatant feat, you may apply your full Dex modifier to weapon damage rolls on attacks made with your off-hand.

nice. consider adding an addendum to Graceful Combatant which includes any Strength penalty to damage - ie a ST-7 DX-18 character getting a +2 to damage...

ok. how about:

Bad Save: half character level
Good: half character level plus class bonus (+2)

(for example, 20th level rogue, before ability scores: F+10, R+12, W+10)

anyone done the analysis on what happens if saving throws are given a choice between two stats to key from?

Fort - ST or CON
Ref - DX or INT
Will - WIS or CHA

does anybody do this?

consider advancing wildshape at odd (rather than even) levels?

Divination Pool (Su):


a 2nd level ovate gains a pool of points equal to half his ovate level plus his Wisdom modifier. this pool replenishes on a daily basis.
so long the ovate retains at least one point in his pool he remains under a continuous effect of the Comprehend Languages spell.
he may expend one point from his pool to speak as though using Tongues for 1 minute.
he may expend one point to treat any 1st-level spell from the Cleric spell list as a known spell for 1 round. doing so is a swift action, and he become staggered the following round. as he learns to cast higher level spells, he may similarly expend one point per spell level to access higher level spells.
upon reaching 10th level, he may expend his entire pool to use Legend Lore as a spell-like ability. doing so leaves him fatigued for 1 hour.

cool concept!

the fact that he is a 9-level caster is implied rather than explicitly stated.

basically you toned down wildshape and traded in some bard lore abilities, then? consider instead keeping wildshape as is (or make it better?) and cutting BAB to half? if he is a peacemaker he really oughtn't carry any weapons (in the classic sense) and instead rely totally on magic. i would expand his magic options to compensate. i get a sense your mechanics don't quite support your theme here.

i would drop Soothing Words way down - like to 3rd or something? esp if you take away weapons he should be able to defeat his enemies another way.

maybe give him a 'pool' to 'draw on ancestral knowledge' or somesuch? (based on WIS?)

the sorcerer gets new spells at even levels. i would reconfigure your table to account for that. some levels (7, 13) come to be dead levels.

lot of potential here.

also what's super clever about it is that it inventivizes class loyalty. since no other class gets 8 ranks, multiclassing makes it much harder to specialize in multiple skills.

concerning your suggestion to simply grant a mastery at each odd level, i wanted the mechanic to give a greater reward to a rogue who prioritizes Intelligence, without totally penalizing a rogue who doesn't. then again, the 'max rank bonus' does this implicitly (by allowing a high-INT rogue to get that competence bonus to a broader range of skills), never-the-less, having it function the way it is written allows a very-high-INT rogue (say 18 or 20) to double/triple-dip his INT score and get an impressive host of mastery skills, thus allowing an investigator-type rogue to be possible by arranging the ability scores differently (INT>DX vs DX>INT) within the same class chassis.

also, i might change the name back to Skill Execution, as i would like to keep the Skill Mastery advanced talent above.

maybe instead of progressing damage dice, you advance the critical hit spec?

so 1d8 damage (constant) x19/x18/x17/x16/x15 at 4th/8th/12th/16th/20th

true, that is strange. but then again not so much. practice makes perfect, no? just because an olympic gymnast can stick a medal-winning maneuver once does not mean they can always do it - performance at that highest tier requires continuous practice, which means always putting a 'rank' in the skill you are perfecting.

how about 'floating ranks'?

Skill Flexibility (new feat):


Requirements: Skill Mastery, Rogue level 3+
Benefits: You gain +3 additional skill ranks. Unlike normal skill ranks, these ranks may be re-assigned each morning after 6 hours of rest. You gain +1 additional rank for every rogue level you attain, or for every four levels in a different character class.



Skill Mastery (version 4.5):


The rogue is the undisputed master of skills. Whenever using a skill for which she has invested maximum ranks, she gains a competence bonus to her check equal to half her rogue level (minimum +1).

At 3rd level, the rogue chooses a number of skills equal to her Intelligence bonus (minimum one). Whenever she uses one of these skills, she may either roll twice and take the better result, or simply take 10 on the roll, even if distractions would otherwise hinder her from doing so. At 7th level, and again every four rogue levels, she chooses another set of skills to become skill mastery skills.

01- Sneak Attack, Skill Mastery, Trapfinding
02- Rogue Talents, Evasion
03- Skill Mastery, Trap Sense
04- Rogue Talent, Uncanny Dodge
06- Rogue Talent
07- Skill Mastery
08- Rogue Talent, Improved Uncanny Dodge


(thanks for the inspiration)


Shortened Spell
Slowed Spell
Weak Spell



i kind of like it too. definitely considering it...

Improved Flurry (version 9 continued):


A monk of 6th level may use his flurry of blows ability against a single enemy to greater effect. He gains the Vital Strike feat. At 11th level, he gains the Improved Vital Strike feat, and at 16th level he gains the Greater Vital Strike feat.


too much?

or you could consider:

full BAB - never provokes
3/4 BAB - provokes only upon failure
1/2 BAB - provocation but incurs no penalty

with the following maneuvers only (if high enough ability score):

ST 13 - bullrush, rag, grapple, overrun
DX 13 - disarm, steal, trip
INT 13 - dirty trick, reposition
CHA 13 - feint, goad (new)


choose an enemy within 60 feet of you
roll Bluff (language-dependent) or Intimidate against feint maneuver defense (FMD)
if success, foe takes -2 to attack and save/ability DCs against anyone but you for 1 round
success or failure, only works once per enemy per 24 hour period (ie "1/foe/day")

there are three layers of combat maneuver 'privilege' - (if you will).

1) no provocation
2) only provocation on failed roll
3) provocation but incurs no penalty

if you wanted to grant 'proficiency' with a combat maneuver, consider 2 or 3 as well. don't get me wrong!: however you do it, i would strictly polarize it rather than offer 'shades' of proficiency - i just want to throw out some options all of which are better than option four:

4) provocation incurs penalty (aka standard)

Kain Darkwind, so as not to jack Kekkres's, is there a thread of yours to discuss your modifications to the rogue talents?

i spent the weekend thinking about your flurry concept:

Flurry of Blows (version 9):


01- Flurry 1d6 (2 foes)
03- Flurry 2d6
05- Flurry 3d6 (3 foes)
07- Flurry 4d6
09- Flurry 5d6 (4 foes)...

A monk may make a flurry of blows as a standard action. He may make an unarmed strike against any two foes he threatens, and deals 1d6 damage if he hits. This damage increases by +1d6 at every odd monk level, and he may strike an additional foe he threatens every four monk levels with the same flurry. Though the monk only rolls one attack roll per opponent, this ability actually represents the monk peppering his enemies with punches, kicks, and headbutts (etc).

When using this ability is conjunction with his fast movement ability, the monk may space out his attacks between movements however he likes, so long as he moves no further than his fast movement bonus that round (i.e. 10 feet at 3rd level, 20 feet at 6th level). This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal, and he may not attack the same foe more than once per flurry.


what do you think?

^^um that should say "Charmed Life" not "Panache" woops

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did you see this bloke's rogue remake? i especially like the embedded Improved Steal. nice.

Sneak Attack - i presume the "Sneak Attack +1" refers to +1 precision bonus to damage but +1d6 if SA conditions met (DX-denied, flanked)? assuming so, is this with finesse weapons only? i ask because that is a common precondition, but shoehorns the rogue into a DX build, which, though arguably the most iconic, betrays the rogue's flexibility. consider leaving Sneak Attack completely unmodified, and instead import the "+1 precision bonus to damage per SA dice" into Finesse Rogue talent. because, Weapon Finesse is taken at 1st level anyway if at all, and having it be a talent is quite silly.

also, i challenge you to consider SA as one class feature and record it as such. look what happens to your class table:


Kekkres Rogue

01- Sneak Attack, Expertise
02- Rogue Talents, Evasion
03- Ambush
04- Rogue Talent, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Feint
05- Agility
06- Rogue Talent, Rogue's Fortune 1/day
07- Deft Footwork
08- Rogue Talent
09- Greater Feint
10- Advanced Talents, Rogue Talent
11- Rogue's Fortune 2/day
12- Rogue Talent, Greater Agility
13- Improved Evasion
14- Rogue Talent
15- Hide in Plain Sight
16- Rogue Talent, Rogue's Fortune 3/day
18- Rogue Talent
20- Rogue Talent, Master Strike

Expertise - i would call this "Skill Expertise" to be more specific. Also, what if every morning the rogue wakes up, if she could train for 15 minutes and choose a number of skills (four, as you have, or Intelligence modifier, as you had, or, one per two rogue levels) and gain this bonus to those skills for that day? just a thought. if this, name it "Skill Training" then? or a completely different idea where "whenever the rogue has maximum ranks in a class skill, that skill gains a competence bonus equal to half the rogue's level"... some ideas to consider.

Improved Feint - i would make this available earlier? as it stands, it is the only class feature of yours that broadens the applicability of Sneak Attack - something i believe all rogue patches ought to address - so having this come online before 4th level may be worth considering.

Rogue's Fortune - i like the name. or at least the word "Fortune" for sure. in choosing 6/11/16 are you trying to parallel iterative attacks of full BAB classes? maybe this could see an earlier and more plentiful progression? 3/7/11/15/19?

Agility - consider rolling Deft Footwork into an Agility I/II/III/IV line that scales to 5/9/13/17? maybe Improved Deft Footwork (renamed Agility IV) could be an immediate action? if you do this, you could also grant a "ignore +10-foot difficult terrain per round" per advancement?

Improved Evasion and Hide in Plain Sight - i would simply make into advanced rogue talents, especially if you turn Fortune and Agility into odd-level abilities.

Critical Sneak - nice idea. beware the Blind/Stun-loop of Blinding and Stunning Critical though. if you divorce it from sneak attack, you could just grant Critical Focus as a bonus feat (at 10th?) and say that rogue levels substitute for BAB when taking critical feats? another way entirely to turn Sneak Attack into a greater battlefield control ability is to allow multiple talents (which are frequently pretty good - like Slow Reactions) to be delivered by a single Sneak Attack. you could either charge a 2-dice tax, or simply allow up to two upon gaining the Advanced Talents class feature?

cool ideas here. cheers.

i agree with Cyrad about the reactive ability being more thematic for the class.
i would make the ability more powerful but less restricted per day.
consider this:

Panache (alternate):


Once per day, after rolling an attack roll, skill check, or saving throw, the swashbuckler may immediately either re-roll or add in his Charisma bonus (if any). He may not do both, and is bound to this altered result. At 3rd level, and again every three swashbuckler levels, he gains an additional use of this ability, to a maximum of 7 times per day at 18th level.

Intelligence (capital I) is used for Appraise, Craft, Knowledge, Linguistics, and Spellcraft checks.

The other mental ability scores represent other kinds of intelligences (lowercase i).

dunno for sure. not sure ill purchase ACG. but the Prepared-Spontaneous hybrid concept is being utilized by the new Arcanist class i'm pretty sure.

seized by a fit of musing, i just kind of let the idea run. and the 'spec' seemed right.

take a monk with 20 WIS at 8th level. He will have access to all first and second level cleric spells, but prepared into just 5 daily slots (!), powered spontaneously by ki for that day. next day, another 5, etc.

so, he is Prepared-Spontaneous, not unlike the new Arcanist class i believe, but with much greater checks on his power. Wisdom should stay down because the class is inherently MAD, and because a 4-level caster will never be a true dedicated spell-user - the DCs just won't add up.

it was an attempt to balance the two paths - ki pool grants about four abilities, and a typical 4-level casting progression goes way above and beyond that, so I wanted to not only reel it in, but also do away with cross-referencing additional tables (spells/day vs spells known).

i gave the warrior path the recharge ability because did you look at Divine Might!

here it is. i kind of dig the idea. maybe the 'greater' version is save for half? also, if they are saving, i would consider inverting critical hits off natural 1's (and 2's, 3's...)

if you do your 1d20+pile 'flurry' idea i suggest scaling it to 1st/6th/11th/16th because that will align the damage boost with full BAB iteratives (sorta like Vital Strike line) - maybe 2d6/4d6/6d6/8d6?


philosophy aside, what matters is what the consequences of utilizing Enchantment and Divination spells of this nature are. is it against the law? why or why not? is there regional variance? how are the laws enforced? are law enforcement entities beholden to the same code of morality they uphold? on and off the record?

and, concerning this moody character, did he acquire the consent of the people he tortured? assuming he didn't, how is this different than using another kind of 'force' - forced mind control? not that playing a hypocrite is bad. actually i think it makes for an interesting character.

what i like about Kelazan's response it that it begins with "according to me..." - there is a serious subjective component to interpreting and playing alignment, which is what makes it so interesting. what you qualify as LN alignment - utilizing physical force (torture) is okay, utilizing magical force (charm) is not - i would qualify as CN. because your moody character is playing by his own arbitrary rules. unless, of course, he is merely modeling the ethics of the society he operates in, in which case i would agree with you (LN).

what i'm trying to get at is that two people of the same 'alignment' can be two very different characters indeed - with compelling arguments going both directions about what constitutes appropriate behavior of a person of their shared alignment.

hope that helps!

limit break flavor.
eastern medicine numerology.
so worth the standard action now.

Wholeness of Body (version 4):


At 7th level or higher, by tapping into his chakras, a monk can heal his own wounds as a standard action. By spending all the remaining ki in his pool (minimum 1), he can completely heal himself back to his full normal hit point total, plus removing either one status effect, one negative level, or one point of ability damage. For every 2 additional monk levels thereafter, he may heal an additional status effect, negative level, or point of ability damage when using this ability, to a maximum of seven at 19th level. This is a supernatural ability.

can people with camera-phones snap your picture without asking?

can Social Media sell those pictures to Advertisers?

modeled after Wild Empathy (sort of).
saves ranks and kills 'ugly/moody mad monk' stereotype.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon (alternate):


A 2nd level monk can improve the attitude and make simple requests of a humanoid creature with whom he does not share a language. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check. The monk rolls 1d20 and adds his monk level and Wisdom bonus to determine the result. At 7th level, he may use this abiliity to communicate with any creature that possesses a language. At 12th level, he may use this ability to communicate with any creature that possesses and Intelligence score. At 17th level, he may use this ability to communicate with any living creature.

ha ha i like that

Scrying too?

im in the middle

there are several rogue talents with what seems to be 'tacked on' X/day restrictions

im not opposed to limited round/use/pool resources in general - i just think that sometimes Design uses it as a crutch in lieu of exercising the ol' left brain - there are myriad ways to introduce mechanical limitations, with X/day being one option, but too often a default option that seems lazy or lacklustre from the outside looking in

some other restrictions?

1) action economy
2) situational
3) rest time

for example, take the rogue talent Resilience (1/day). it could be reconceived using each, any two, or a mix of every restriction listed above, all which would serve to constrain it from being 'infinite' in a different way

good discussion folks!

you can get the books on amazon if the bookstore prices are too high

('virtual' has been taken - monk flurrying at 'virtual' full BAB for example)

so by more "virtual" do you mean "an abstraction of multiple attacks being rolled with a single d20 roll and a pile of scaling damage dice?" - this looks like what you have above. but honestly, i think a better abstraction for that would be to have the monk's 'flurry' work like an area effect attack offering a Reflex save for half. I once saw a variant conception for Whirlwind Attack that did precisely that.

i think the mathematics of the monk's 'flurry BAB' is the wonkiest pattern of numbers i've seen across all 30+ paizo classes. new attacks start at -1? really? what dice do i roll if my monk attacks with a longspear, stunning fist, and trip maneuver in the same attack routine?

the above proposal seeks to simplify the math, and provide a boost to hit with iterative attacks at the same time. if i ask you "which is a better attack routine, +7/+7/+7 or +8/+8/+3/+3?" you might cleverly respond with "it depends on the number of opponents and their ACs" to which i might pose back "based on that dependence, under what circumstances ought the monk to shine the most?" (ought being the key word here) - because, do we see the monk as the guy who is skilled at taking out mooks by the truckload - or as the guy who can give their leader a run for his money?

i feel my proposal mechanically speaks to the latter scenario.

the reason i raise the DPR question is because i want to know the upper limit.

four more.

Exploitation (version 3 continued):


Using a ranged weapon, the rogue targets a foe within point blank range (usually 30 feet) as a free action and rolls her Perception against her foe's feint defense. Within one round of successfully doing so, she may apply her sneak attack dice to the next successful attack she makes against him.

Using a light weapon, the rogue targets her foe as a free action and rolls her Sleight of Hand against her foe's feint defense. Within one round of successfully doing so, she may apply her sneak attack dice to the next successful attack she makes against him.

The rogue targets a foe who is casting a spell as a free action. Within one round of doing so, she may apply her sneak attack dice to the next successful attack she makes against him.

The rogue targets a foe who is taking the withdraw action as a free action. Within one round of doing so, she may apply her sneak attack dice to the next successful attack she makes against him.


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new type of bonus: Faction

in the greater complex political milieu of a living world, every organization has a relationship with every other organization - interactions between them can be considered an analogy for interactions between individuals: Hostile, Unfriendly, Indifferent, Friendly, Helpful

depending on the relationship status between organizations (which, can sour or sweeten over time), characters who belong to one organization may have a Faction bonus or penalty to social rolls (Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate) which pays respect to that characters relative rank within their own organization.

Faction bonus/penalty, X, is a function of your rank (1-5 tiers)

for Strong relations (Hostile, Helpful), +X or -X
for Weak relations (Friendly, Unfriendly), +1/2X or +1/2X
for Neutral relations (Indifferent), +0

mathematician bored?

Classic Monk Flurry


full BAB -2 bonus attack at 1st/6th/11th/16th

01: -01/-01 @1d6
02: +00/+00 @1d6
03: +01/+01 @1d6
04: +02/+02 @1d8
05: +03/+03 @1d8
06: +04/+04/-01 @1d8
07: +05/+05/+00 @1d8
08: +06/+06/+01/+01 @1d10
09: +07/+07/+02/+02 @1d10
10: +08/+08/+03/+03 @1d10
11: +09/+09/+04/+04/-01 @1d10
12: +10/+10/+05/+05/+00 @2d6
13: +11/+11/+06/+06/+01 @2d6
14: +12/+12/+07/+07/+02 @2d6
15: +13/+13/+08/+08/+03/+03 @2d6
16: +14/+14/+09/+09/+04/+04/-01 @2d8
17: +15/+15/+10/+10/+05/+05/+00 @2d8
18: +16/+16/+11/+11/+06/+06/+01 @2d8
19: +17/+17/+12/+12/+07/+07/+02 @2d8
20: +18/+18/+13/+13/+08/+08/+03 @2d10

Alternate Monk Flurry

enhanced 3/4 BAB no iterative penalty bonus attack at 1st

01: +00/+00 @1d6
02: +01/+01 @1d6
03: +02/+02 @1d6
04: +03/+03 @1d8 E+1
05: +03/+03 @1d8 E+1
06: +04/+04 @1d8 E+1
07: +05/+05 @1d8 E+2
08: +06/+06/+06 @1d10 E+2
09: +06/+06/+06 @1d10 E+2
10: +07/+07/+07 @1d10 E+3
11: +08/+08/+08 @1d10 E+3
12: +09/+09/+09 @2d6 E+3
13: +09/+09/+09 @2d6 E+4
14: +10/+10/+10 @2d6 E+4
15: +11/+11/+11/+11 @2d6 E+4
16: +12/+12/+12/+12 @2d8 E+5
17: +12/+12/+12/+12 @2d8 E+5
18: +13/+13/+13/+13 @2d8 E+5
19: +14/+14/+13/+13 @2d8 E+5
20: +15/+15/+15/+15 @2d10 E+5

which monk has better DPR?
under what circumstances?
any other data analysis?
("E" means enhancement bonus to attack/damage)
(bonus Ki attack factored out - considered roughly equivalent)

why do i want to know? because i like the alternate flurry but suspect that i might have to dial it some. for example, by removing the scaling damage bonus. or maybe not?

either a mild buff to the existing ki pool,
or an alternate to it that provides utility casting.

mostly interested in feedback that balances the two 'paths' against eachother. (for example, ought a mystic path monk 'give up' flurry of blows?...)

Mystic Path (ki pool alternate):


Upon reaching 4th level, a monk must choose his path towards enlightenment. He must choose between The Warrior Path and The Mystic Path. Once his decision is made, the choice is permanent.

The Warrior Path:

the traditional (core) path

The warrior monk gains a ki pool with a number of points equal to half his monk level plus his Wisdom bonus (if any). So long as he retains one point, his unarmed strikes are imbued with a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage, +1 every three additional monk levels (max +5). Further, The monk may make one additional attack as part of a flurry of blows, increase his fast movement bonus by +20 for 1 round, or grant himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 minute. Each of these abilities consumes 1 point from his ki pool and is activated as a swift action. His ki pool also powers monk abilities gained through additional advancement.

Whenever the warrior monk drops a foe at the end of a flurry of blows routine, rolls a natural 20 on a saving throw, or sustains a critical hit that drops him to fewer hit points than he has hit dice, he may regain 1 point of ki. Otherwise, 6 hours of sleep or meditation replenishes his ki pool completely.

At 10th level, when the monk replenishes his ki pool, he may modify his passive enhancement bonus by exchanging for an equivalent bonus any magic weapon quality or qualities he likes. This special enhancement lasts until he rests and replenishes again.

The Mystic Path:

the non-traditional path

The mystic monk gains a ki pool with a number of points equal to his full monk level plus his Wisdom bonus. He may use this pool of points to prepare and cast spells from the cleric spell list (see below) as spell-like abilities - except that doing so provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening enemies.

The mystic monk may prepare a number of spells per day equal to his Wisdom modifier. In order to prepare a spell, his Wisdom must equal or exceed 10 + the spell's level. Initially, he may only select spells from the 1st-level list - he gains access to 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spells at respective monk levels 7th, 10th, and 13th. Each spell consumes a number of ki points equal to the spell's level, and the monk may cast any spell he has prepared any number of times so long as he has the ki points to support it. His caster level is equal to his monk level.

The spell list is changed in the following ways: Atonement is considered a 4th level spell, the Summon Monster series is replaced with the Summon Nature's Ally series, and any spell with the good or evil descriptor is removed. Otherwise, the lists are identical.

The mystic monk's ki pool is replenished after 6 hours of sleep or meditation. At this time, the monk must select which spells to prepare from those he has access to - he may not leave any open slots. Once decided, he may not change them until rests and replenishes again.

maybe there is no grey area.

but i think at the liberal extreme, you have basing it off of critical hits or skills etc.,
and at the conservative extreme, you have basing it off pure DM fiat ('brave acts' and whatnot).

i guess i'm looking for a middle area. generally, i agree with your platitude, but i'm wondering if there is a sweet spot that minimizes (not eliminates) gamism in the name of increased interactivity/more dynamic mechanics.

that is a good point.

what about instead of no recharge mechanic there be a conservative one?

like, just the 'act of bravery' and that's it. thus, the entire recharge hinges on DM discretion.

or just 'whenever an ally within 30 feet falls below 0 HP' - that is, just in case of emergency?

any other ideas for a more conservative recharge?

yes. soon to compile a version 2 list of completely reworked (basic) rogue talents, from core to advanced players guide to ultimate combat, including no-ki (mundane) ninja tricks.

i wish i had your formatting skills though. your stuff looks like it's pages torn straight out the rulebook. per Lemmy's request, the 'blueish text' will be removed for ease of reading - changes from the old talents are upthread anyhow, in the blueish, so it's on record.

Scout and Investigator Talents:

Camouflage (Ex): A rogue with this talent can craft simple but effective camouflage from the surrounding foliage. The rogue needs 10 minutes and rudimentary materials to prepare the camouflage, but once she does, it is good for the rest of the day or until the wearer fails a saving throw against an area effect spell that deals fire, cold, or acid damage; whichever comes first. While within terrain that matches the foliage used to make the camouflage, the rogue may use her Survival bonus in place of her Stealth skill for herself and all of her camoflaged allies, modified by -2 for each ally camoflaged (not including herself) and by the sum of all armor check penalties of the group. This ability cannot be used in areas without natural foliage.

Canny Observer (Ex): A rogue with this ability may add her Intelligence modifier to her Perception checks. Intentionally searching for a stimulus may be done as a swift action. Distance penalties to hear the details of a conversation or to find concealed or secret objects (including doors and traps) are reduced by half.

Follow Clues: A rogue with this talent gains the Track feat and can use Perception to follow tracks as per the Survival skill.

Hard to Fool (Ex): A rogue with this talent may add her Intelligence bonus to her Sense Motive checks, and has the uncanny ability to sense enchantment (see Sense Motive) whenever she passes within 10 feet of a creature under such an effect - even if the creature is using the Disguise skill, or is under an illusion or polymorph spell or effect. This check should be made in secret by the DM. Her suspicions are aroused against all illusions and she is automatically considered to disbelieve their effects. If she makes this saving throw, she may communicate her disbelief to her allies granting them a +8 to their respective saving throws (instead of +4). Finally, a rogue with this ability is immune to the mirror image spell and similar magicks (she always strikes the true caster).

Survivalist (Ex): A rogue with this talent may add her Intelligence modifier to her Heal and Survival skill checks, may use the Heal skill to administer long-term care to herself, and gains the Endurance feat.

what role can an outspoken (or counter-reactionary) skeptic play in the indoctrination process?

is this a one-way street? (Atonement?)

i'd like, in a Rogue adjustment of any scale, not to have to make a change that interacts with the Barbarian (or for that matter any other class who poaches rogue's class features!), as written, in any way. so, Trap Sense shall remain unmolested.


Advanced Trap Sense (new rogue feature):


A 2nd level rogue has an intuitive sense about the functioning of traps. She may use Disable Device to disarm magical traps. She gains a competence bonus to all Disable Device and Perception skill checks, a dodge bonus to AC both against attacks made as a ready action and against attacks made by traps, and an insight bonus both to initiative and to all saving throws made against traps of all kinds. These bonuses are equal to half her rogue level. This is an extraordinary ability.

This unique class feature replaces both Trapfinding and Trap Sense for the core rogue.

01- Sneak Attack
02- Rogue Talents, Advanced Trap Sense, Evasion
04- Rogue Talent, Uncanny Dodge



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