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it's also sometimes hard to get actual feedback on these forums. that's just the way it is.

Secret Wizard,
not a fan of over-the-top skill bonuses (you know, +1/2 level etc) - to me, that's the rogue's thing, getting a skill bonus stupid high. the design idea behind Warcraft (above) is that it gives breadth instead of depth. Size Up allows untrained Knowledge checks, Hunch is similar to Sense Motive in a way, and Goad is like an expanded Intimidate. Because they are level checks they will be difficult to pull off, but have no consequence for failure, so that's okay. The fighter can still use traits to make these class skills and get the bonuses higher (because they are skills not level checks), but he needn't invest in them to do so, and that'll free him up to spend his 2 points on other things. plus, being level checks, they reward class loyalty.

but yeah, i suppose this thread is to imagine ways to expand utility without changing the base chassis, nor composing a major rewrite. personally, i find the 'traits' solution (see upthread) to be uncreative.

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you could've gone with the Fibonacci sequence, but apparently you chose to be conservative

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again, ducktailing on the ol' fighter debate

for better or for worse, i am married to the Fighter 'chassis' (yes - that means two friggin skill points and class skills untouched - an unpopular opinion i know!)

that said, I like the idea that the fighter ought to have more in-theme 'brain' options, to encourage investment in the mental ability scores (i am also of the opinion that Combat Expertise ought to keep the 13 INT requirement - another unpopular opinion!), and have recently had an idea that i saw somewhere (i think by Rynjin?) to propose here.

Warcraft (new fighter feature):


A fighter's experience on the battlefield lends him an insight into the art and tactics of war. He may make a level check, using his fighter level plus one of his mental attributes against his foe's *SMD, to gain a psychological advantage against his enemies.

Size Up - Using his Intelligence, a fighter may substitute this roll for a single Knowledge check against a foe he is aware of, as if he possessed the appropriate knowledge skill. He may use this ability once per foe, but may retry against that foe once he attains a new fighter level. At the DM's discretion, the fighter may become privy to a secret personal weakness or hidden source of strength his enemy may possess. Sizing up a foe is a free action.

Hunch - Using his Wisdom, a fighter may glean a tactical insight against a foe with which he has entered a protracted military conflict against. This ability is functionally similar to the 'Hunch' aspect of the Sense Motive skill, usable against a foe he has personally survived an encounter with. He may use this ability once per foe, but may retry against that foe once he attains a new fighter level. At the DM's discretion, the fighter may become privy to a secret political weakness or hidden source of strength his enemy may possess. Gaining a Hunch against a foe takes an hour of study or meditation to perform.

Goad - Using his Charisma, a fighter may press his psychological advantage against his foe, temporarily aggravating rational thought by spurning hatred for himself. If he succeeds, his foe must take immediate direct action against the fighter in the following round, ignoring otherwise sound tactics in lieu of impulsive behavior. This is a mind-affecting ability. If the fighter attempts this ability more than once against the same foe before 24 hours has passed, he takes a cumulative -2 to his roll for each subsequent attempt. Goading an enemy is a swift action.

(*note: "SMD" refers to "Sense Motive Defense" and, per the Feint function of the Bluff skill, refers to the better of either 10+BAB+WIS or 10+Sense Motive bonus. I am taking this concept of 'defense' to the next level by codifying it as such. enjoy!)

thanks to Petty Alchemy for the name idea

coat-tailing on the upsurge in activity concerning the non-unchained fighter, another idea

Bravery (alternate 6):


A 2nd level fighter can overcome fear and other physiological stresses that would daunt a lesser man. He is hereafter considered immune to the shakened condition. As an immediate action, the fighter may re-roll a failed will save made against an effect from an opponent he is aware of. He gains a +1 morale bonus to this re-roll. If he succeeds, he is released from any of the effects of the original failed save, and becomes staggered for 1 round instead. This is an extraordinary ability. The bonus rises by +1 every four fighter levels afterwards, to a maximum of +5 at 18th level. Whether or not he succeeds, he must wait 24 hours before using this ability to against the same foe.

At 6th level, the fighter becomes immune to the frightened and fatigued conditions.

At 10th level, he becomes immune to all fear and exhaustion effects.

i am a proponent of the 1/foe/day over the X/day mechanic as a 'thematic' yet 'balanced' way to give a 'mundane' class a cool extraordinary ability.


continuing refinement. changes from above in blue. (note: above versions are already distinct from the book versions)

Strike Talents:

Befuddling Strike* (Ex): When the rogue deals sneak attack damage against an opponent, that opponent takes a penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and concentration checks equal to the rogue's Charisma bonus (minimum 1) for a number of rounds equal to the rogue's number of sneak attack dice. Once a creature has been the target of a befuddling strike, that creature is immune to that rogue's befuddling strike for 24 hours.

Bleeding Attack* (Ex): A rogue with this ability can cause living opponents to bleed by hitting them with a sneak attack. This attack causes the target to take 1 additional point of damage each round for each die of the rogue's sneak attack (e.g., 4d6 equals 4 points of bleed). Bleeding creatures take that amount of damage every round at the start of each of their turns. The bleeding can be stopped by a Heal check with a DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the rogue's level + her Intelligence modifier, or the application of any effect that heals hit point damage. Bleeding damage from this ability does not stack with itself. Bleeding damage bypasses any damage reduction the creature might possess.

Combat Swipe* (Ex): A rogue with a free hand who deals sneak attack damage to an adjacent opponent may immediately perform a steal combat maneuver as a free action against that same foe, and may use her Sleight of Hand skill bonus in place of her CMB bonus to do so.

Offensive Defense* (Ex): A rogue with this talent exploits pockets in her foes' defenses to bolster her own. Whenever she hits a creature with a melee attack that deals sneak attack damage, the rogue gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each sneak attack die rolled for one round. This bonus does not stack with itself.

Underhanded* (Ex): Whenever a rogue with this talent makes a sneak attack during the surprise round using a concealed weapon, an unarmed strike, or under the pretense of neutrality or friendship, she automatically maximizes her sneak attack damage dice. A rogue using this ability to deal subdual damage suffers no penalty on her attack roll.



if all feedback is good, even negative feedback, if you dont appreciate it you can just ignore me (we will probably never meet anyhow)...

in general, i agree with all of your design philosophy, with the exception of one oversight: some of your upgraded talents share none of the original intent of the (weaker) older talents whose name they now fly under. i think this is a mistake.

on to your talents:


- Acrobatic Master: i mostly like what you've done here, because this is basically still a bonus to tumbling. but the Escape Artist swap feels tacked on. consider this instead? "if the rogue fails her acrobatics check, and her foe's attack of opportunity misses, she may continue her movement through threatened squares." cool, no?

- Assault Leader: i like the original idea. it's the 1/day that sucks. can we just change this to 1/enemy/day?

- Black Market Connections: hell yeah!

- Befuddling Strike: i like both the original and your version, but think the original could be expanded. maybe the rogue can opt to give the penalty to her choice between either all attacks made against her or all attack not made against her? as for your version, i think you should just come up with a new name (Feinting Critical?) and keep both.

- Canny Observer: i feel like the ID function should fall under Esoteric Scholar. then again, your original take on noticing weaknesses via observation (as opposed to study) is intriguing... it'd be too cool to just let the rogue sub in Perception for all 10 Knowledge skills (take THAT bard!) - maybe we could with a maximum 'glean' of a single item of information per creature? or, the rogue must study the creature a full round (and within 30 feet - remember Perception penalties for distance!) to get more info? there is some more potential here...

- Charmer (Sp): why rogue 10? wizard can do this level 1. and in a single round.

- Coax Information: what does an 'intimidating critical' have to do with coaxing information? the original talent sucks, true, but can you explain your reasoning here?

- Defensive Roll: i think you have gone too far in allowing this at will. even within the action economy. consider reinstating a pre-condition?

- Deft Palm: nice. except that i would use 'feint AC' (that is, 10 + either SM or BAB+WIS) for synchronicity. also, consider allowing even further strategic options: each die forfeited adds +1 to strike?

- Distracting Attack: ok, looks like you rolled the old Befuddling Strike into this talent. nice. if you take my advice above (viz 'Feinting Critical'), the penalty to concentrate/skill/attack can be the new Befuddling Strike (keeping the original intent and expanding upon it), and the original Distracting Attack (which sets up your ally) can be retained. i like the original, but also think it could be improved. such as granting the ally some or all of your sneak attack dice...

- Esoteric Scholar: go all Knowledge skills! otherwise i like. or, new idea(!), allow Knowledge History to function as Identify + Spellcraft but in an extraordinary fashion?

- False Friend: i would limit this to 1/foe/day. only a great fool would fall for this twice. otherwise super cool!

- Fast Picks: nice.

- Finesse Rogue: nice. or. allow DEX to damage?...

- Force of Personality: ok nice.

- Getaway Artist: neat! i say drop it to basic though. if you make lots of cool basic talents, which you are, by dint of there being so many good options serves to balance the opportunity cost of choosing one over another. this is not game-breaking, as it is a corner-caser.

- Hard to Fool: still underpowered.

- Hold Breath: interactivity with inhaled poisons?

- Honeyed Words: nice

- Iron Guts: you forgot nauseated.

- Ledge Walker: nice. i might steal.

- Minor Magic and Major Magic: more is better. why did you change DC to CHA? further, since you did, why do you still keep INT at all?

- Nimble Climber: might steal. (except i like the name Wall Scramble - more evocative).

- Opportunist: interplay with Slow Reactions unclear.

- Peerless Maneuver: what happened to acrobatics? actually, this is a better suited title. so nevermind.

- Powerful Sneak: i like mine better (bypass DR equal to sneak attack dice)...

- Rogue Crawl: again might steal.

- Resiliency: i do not like the direction you took this.

- Shadow Blend: neato!

- Slippery Mind: nice. does this stack with Hard to Fool?

- Sniper's Eye: by 60 feet or to 60 feet? i prefer the latter. very cool.

- Skill Mastery: no comment.

- Strong Impression: the original totally sucks. just take the feat stupid! but a bonus/re-roll to initiative? i kind of see your train of logic ("the first impression you will get of me will be my dagger in your side!"), but it still seems a little off. brainstorm here.

- Strong Stroke: stealing.

- Surprise Attack: yes!

- Survivalist: still underpowered...

- Swift Poisoning: yes.

- Underhanded: i like the original. except any number of times per day.

hope that helps! consider looking at mine? cheers!

i own Rogue Glory, hard copy, and am currently playing a Glory Rogue.

im actually more a fan of the Lethal Acrobatics, Trick Shot, and Combat Escapist talents. they allow interactivity between skills and the sneak attack class feature. friggin' genius.

hey community

i agree strongly that Rogue Talents need to count.

also that the rogue, like the ninja, would benefit greatly from a pool mechanic.

as a few of the posters above me, i have drawn up a homebrew version of such a class feature; an Execution Pool and a Poison Pool.

that said, how 'thematic' do you think it is that the rogue is notoriously shy on defenses (AC, hit points, and saves)?

ought the the Execution Pool mechanic linked above have a defensive option? for example: "as an immediate action before making a saving throw, the rogue may add her Intelligence bonus to the roll by spending one execution point" or some such?

or, ought the rogue's 'defenses' be not being targeted in the first place? (read Sneak Attack, Stealth, etc...)

i third the Reduce Severity idea.

consider a flat cost of 10 HP per level. steep enough to really think about, and easy to remember (read: fast!)

let all creatures/characters have the option to reduce severity. maybe if the creature has superior CR, let it end the effect rather than reduce?

one word: Edmund Dantes!

politics aside...

i say he must make a standard DC 10 check to stuff the coins down his shirt securely without dropping them, modified by -20 for their general unwieldiness and bulk, opposed by all party members' Perception (assuming they are in or near the room).

when time comes to divvy up the loot, and it comes up noticeably shy (330gp out of how much? is that the entire chest? is it only a teeny tiny portion?), assuming he doesn't come clean, call for opposed Bluff vs Sense Motives (or Appraise?). if he's been caught stealing from the party before, stack a cumulative -10 penalty for every previous instance.

in future treasure room situations, assuming he has been caught before and is tempted to steal again anyway, call for another Bluff vs Sense Motive round, stacking the same -10 cumulative penalty for each instance he's been caught.

i could see seeing better in the dark a consequence of building on the talent of locating and disarming mechanical and magical traps, as i imagine that many traps are set in places with sub par lighting.

a benefit of rolling it in is not adding words to the class table, and to make the ability less enticing to trade out.

why ought it be separate? like, any reason in particular?

take four.
adding enhanced vision capability right out of the gate.

Trapfinding (alternate):


A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception and Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps. Finally, she gains low-light vision. If she already possesses low-light vision or darkvision, instead her range with that ability doubles.

or, you could call the new ability score a speed bonus, at a simple 5:1 ratio, but enforce minimums/maximums of half/double the creature's base speed (by race).

humans (base 30) would have a 15 foot minimum (at score 1-5), 60 foot maximum (at score 22+).

just trying to work around the X/day paradigm of resource management specifically

currently exploring action economy as opportunity cost

been thinking about immediate actions a lot. the Borrowing Against Future Actions (BAFA) concept in particular. so, what about this?

version 5:

Bravery (alternate 5):


A 2nd level fighter can shrug off effects that would daunt lesser mortals. As an immediate action, he may re-roll a failed saving throw, taking a +1 bonus to the re-roll. Whether or not the re-rolled save succeeds, he may may not take a move action or a full-round action the following round.

At 6th level, and again every four fighter levels, he gains an additional +1 bonus to the re-roll, to a maximum of +5 at 18th level.



Whirling Feint (Ex):
Whenever the bravo attempts to feint a foe he threatens, he may instead attempt a feint against all foes who are currently flanking him as part of the same action. He gains a bonus to his check equal to the number of foes flanking him, and uses the same die roll to check against each foe separately.

next idea.

another reason i suggested splitting Technique from Focus was to yield the idea of a 'resting technique' which would consistently grant it's skill bonuses without using up the rounds/level/day resource. i think it also has RP potential: "look at him, he walks like a [rolls Knowledge check] Lannish, puffing his chest all out..."

mechanics for switching techniques unchanged (swift action, uses 1 'round/level/day' point) - essentially the last technique you used lingers and becomes your resting technique (unless you dismiss it [free action], thus having no resting technique, no bonuses, but also no identifiable gait....)

plus, just as Silveri is somewhat an exception, (VM mercenario's) Martinez could be an exception by allowing the initiative bonus to be passively granted (so as to be actually useful without needing Rapid Adaptation) in place of or in addition to the passive skill bonuses.

maybe add Disengaging Flourish to 6th level bonus feat list?


VM mercenario wrote:
Debilitating Strikes are harder to do because it has to be an effect that last between three and ten rounds, so it can't be used to daze, confuse, sttager, stun or do a free maneuver.

this is an excellent point. maybe the uniform duration can be lifted, and instead each effect can have it's own individual duration, so to allow for a greater diversity of effects possible? (stunned for 5 rounds sucks!)

i like your Styles VM mercenario!

half precision damage is weird. maybe an Elan point upon scoring a critical check can enable multiplicity on successful confirmation?

you are probably right about the renaming. but it makes better sense in my head lol.

also, sure, you can use every available action to feint, but then you can't attack in the same round. my suggestion for Whirling Feint, whether explicit or not, was to enable a multi-feint as part of a move action or a swift action (for 1 Elan the latter). thus, interactivity with both Feint and Elan. that was my intent. and, to either 'each adjacent opponent' or 'upon successfully feinting an adjacent for, you may feint another adjacent foe as a free action' (like Cleave). or something. finally, i don't think you can normally feint at range. if you want to include that ability (which imo isn't 'in-theme'), you'd have to add it in specifically.

what are you going to do about the skill timeframes? especially if you include some of the new styles/techniques?

i retract the 'damage is boring' comment. Excaliburproxy is right. cheers.

doubly feinted:
bravo succeeds at feinting a foe whose DX bonus was already denied relative to him.

so, feinting a foe during the surprise round (who doesn't have Uncanny Dodge), or, using a swift feint (a la Elan) and then a move feint (a la Improved Feint) both successfully before attacking a foe.

Excaliburproxy is advocating DPR, i am advocating Battlefield Control and Debuffing.

imagine this:


Bravo Table

01- 1st Fighting Technique, Technique Focus, Bravo Style
02- Bonus Feats, AC Bonus
03- Engaging Feint, Debilitating Strike
04- Elan
05- 2nd Fighting Technique
06- Bonus Feat, Compound Attack
07- Whirling Feint
08- Amazing Elan
09- 3rd Fighting Technique
10- Bonus Feat, Blend Techniques
11- Improved Compound Attack
12- Deadly Strike
13- 4th Fighting Technique
14- Bonus Feat
15- Rapid Adaptation
16- Greater Compound Attack
17- 5th Fighting Technique
18- Bonus Feat
19- True Elan
20- Master of Five Technique

Fighting Style:
renamed. skill bonus persist for 1 hour after last focus.

Technique Focus:
divorced to be named discreetly. this refers to the rounds/day mechanic. you 'know' a fighting style, you 'activate' your focus. clarity here makes blending techniques (see later) easier to describe.

Bravo Style:
renamed Opportune Attack + Feint. clarify 'bravo weapons' here. i would add a 'free' attack of opportunity mechanic here. maybe +INT. or +1 per three bravo levels (minimum +1). something.

Debilitating Strike:
this bread and butter ability (combined with Engaging Feint) comes online earlier. each technique offers two basic status effects that trigger against DX-denied + opportunity-attacked foes. increased status effects come online later (see Deadly Strike).

Whirling Feint:
the 'area feint' ability. either building off of Compound Attack, or functioning similar to Whirlwind Attack or Cleave. something here. this is the (mass) battlefield control coming online at 7th.

Blend Techniques:
earlier, but limited to two, access to using multiple techniques simultaneously. this is essentially a new option added to Focus Technique.

Deadly Strike:
instead of increasing multiplier (boring!), each technique offers expanded options here. either increasing status effects by a degree (shaken > frightened, etc), or allowing a damage spike (rend?), or some other option (slowed, stunned, other ideas). this is essentially a new option added to Debilitating Strike.

Master of Five Techniques:
bravo may exist in all five techniques simultaneously and without increased Elan cost. bam!




fox - no AoO (^flat-footed), skill penalty
cobra - sickened (^nauseated), entangled
wolf - AC drop (^no withdraw/5-ft step), rend damage
lion - shaken (^frightened), lower spell resistance
hare - fatigued (^exhausted), confused

so, upon a feinted foe, bravo may choose to apply one basic status effect with a successful attack of opportunity. upon a doubly feinted foe, bravo may choose two status effects, or a greater status effect (denoted = "^"), etc. if the bravo is using multiple techniques, he may select from multiple lists.

also, as we are now discussing Area Feints again, Compound Attack might be one clever way to deliver that mechanic. we may also consider Elan (swift feint), a new mechanic entirely, incorporation into Engaging Feint (thus granting access at 3rd) or expansion into Deadly Strike (costing Elan?), or re-working Debilitating Feint, or a combination thereof.

nit-pick: i noticed that Fighting Techniques grants both a +2 to attack and a +2 to CMB while in wolf - thus a +4. intentional? pretty significant at 1st level methinks...


i capitalize sometimes to make a Noun out of a Concept. 'Layers of Feint' was speaking to your's and Excaliburproxy's discussion about Compound Attack and complexity and damage, etc. i am essentially suggesting interactivity between it and Debilitating Feint (and expanding the latter).

toss the 'bravo weapons' idea? substitute "while fighting with one hand free", changing the locus from the implement to the lack of one.

Bravo Style (renamed Opportune Attack):
Whenever the bravo fights with one of his hands free, he gains a number of advantages. First, he may make an additional number of attacks of opportunity equal to his Intelligence modifier. Second, he benefits from the Improved Feint feat. Thirdly, he gains a bonus to damage equal to his bravo level when making attacks of opportunity, or when his opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC.

also, what about renaming 'styles' to 'techniques' for discreetness?

lastly, the timeframe of rounds/level duration of focusing technique and certain skills (Disguise, Knowledge Local, etc) seems out of phase. kinda bugs me.

Layers of Feint - maybe instead of multiplying damage if you feint an opponent multiple times, you can select multiple conditions to afflict them with, based on school, which could be expanded to provide 2 or 3 each (under Debilitating Attack)?


i think full BAB plus all good saves in unfair. i would demote Reflex.

this guy is the 'lord' of what? beasts? men?

if beasts,
maybe the Energy Affinity lines (4/8/12/16/20) can be replaced with Summon Nature's Ally?

if men,
maybe Warrior's Calling can grant Favored Terrain bonuses to his allies?

maybe this could be a bond choice?

diggin' the ideas...

what if a HP threshold served as a trigger?

interested to see doc in full

i think Hide in Plain Sight as a 'regular' advanced talent is totally fair.

i rewrote basic and advanced rogue talents a short while back. curious your input if you have time.

namely that a Bravo with a 10 Dexterity doesn't really benefit from Combat Reflexes. it'd be nice if he could have access to additional attacks of opportunity granted from his class. for example, while in a Kata (bad name), he gains +2 AoA per round. plus it'd remove what might be considered a 'feat tax' from a DX-based Bravo.

the main difference between version 3 (immediate action) and version 4 (forfeiture) is subtle. they both intend to work into the action economy as a structural parameter.

to those confused about the 'limit' of version 3, by virtue of it being an immediate action, it is usable once per round, albeit crowded in with any other immediate or swift actions, per the standard rules governing those action types. so, a fighter's Bravery can be 'broken' with a volley of save-inducing attacks.

version 4, by contrast, is 'always on' unless the fighter chooses to lower it. thus, he always has the option to weather an incoming volley of save-inducing attacks, or, to forfeit the additional protection in lieu of performing a 'stunt'.

so, my question is, between the two, which version do you think is most suitable/playable/fun/whatever?

i mostly agree with Cerberus Seven

to tone it down, how about Reflex vs Attack roll?

Combat Reflexes
one of the reasons i have been so engaged with this class proposal is it’s level of ingenuity that combines both conceptual and mechanical flexibility. that you have so far succeeded in allowing bravo’s madness to be a feature and not a bug is impressive. but lately, there has been an increase in the interactivity between non-optional class features and the AoO as a mechanic. thus, in the spirit of maintaining that dynamic, I’d like to see an option for a 10-DX bravo to exploit that same niche.

Incentivizing vs punishing free-handing
as opposed to removing the benefits altogether, consider halving the benefits of Opportune Attack and AC Bonus (for example) when the bravo is wielding his weapon improperly.

Kata? (means “choreographed pattern of movements” or “form,” roughly)

Area feint
how about up to one threatened foe per INT/CHA modifier? or it could work like Cleave? (THAT'D BE COOL!)

Also, what about an ability that allowed a free-handing bravo to make a Bluff check to sub in for an Acrobatics checks made to avoid AoO’s provoked via movement? just came to me…


Ciaran Barnes, a couple more ideas.

"bravo weapons" - defined as simply "any light or one-handed melee" is clear enough. then, when it comes to using Opportune Attack, i would just say "when using a bravo weapon with at least one hand free," similar to how Deflect Arrows talks about freehanding.

Fighting Style, the rounds/day aspect, needs a name. something which captures the hyper-concentration aspect of it. also, as this class now has several mechanics utilizing AoOs, i think it'd be clever to grant an additional number of attacks of opportunity (per round) while using the as-yet-unnamed rounds/day ability. i could suggest either a +1 per two Bravo levels, or, an additional amount equal to Bravo's Intelligence bonus. either way, something that'd stack with Combat Reflexes (which, by the way, is conspicuously missing from your Bonus Feats list). finally, and especially because it makes no sense with Silveri, i wouldn't limit the bonuses granted to just one enemy; instead allow his 'focus' to be generalized - it is after all a finite resource. and, to point out, bonuses to Diplomacy, Disguise, and Knowledge (Local) kinda don't make sense to an ability that is measured in rounds. just sayin.

for Engaging Feint, i would consider flipping the style abilities above (no-AoO/stagger/AC-4/shaken/half-speed) right into the mechanic itself (at 3rd), and let your 7th level ability allow Bravo to roll a single 'area feint' against all adjacent enemies. this would allow him to exert a respectable amount of battlefield control. also, conceptually, i really like the Aldori, Broylin and Lannish exploitative measures. the other two do not seem as thematically linked to the animal spirit. maybe Hallov (wolf) can deny foes the 5-foot-step and withdraw actions, and Silveri (hare) can enforce a +5 DC increase to enemy concentration checks? or something.

if Surprise Maneuver is too good, you could restrict it even more by only allowing it to function against a feinted foe.

this is coming along well! cheers.


how about having each of your five schools grant a different exploitative measure usable against a feinted foe? for example:

fox - compulsion effect
cobra - stun effect
wolf - ?
lion - demoralize effect
hare - slow effect

i am deliberately leaving the mechanics unfleshed out. for example, whether or not there is interaction with Elan (a passive or active cost), exactly the nature of how the status effect is delivered (attack-proc effect? skill-combination? etc...), whether or not there is level-scaling (additional abilities, increased duration, etc), things like that.

to brainstorm on the possibilities of expanding Engaging Feint:

*if the ability was granted earlier, maybe the ability to do an 'area feint' could fill your 7-slot. you could use Dazzling Display as a model. or it could start at a limited radius (starting with all adjacent?) which grows over class levels.

*if you adopted the Grit mechanic per Ascalaphus's suggestion, an idea for recounting points could be when a feinted foe draws a successful AoO.

*similar to how rogue has strike talents, which trigger via sneak attack, there could be a line of exploitative abilities that trigger against feinted foes. either as menu options or as scheduled class features.

*i really like the idea that instead of forcing a foe to remain 'engaged' (a de facto compulsion effect - which, is not a terrible idea), that they are merely encouraged not to 'disengage' on pain of mechanical advantage. i'd like to see this concept expanded upon.


nice work. Bravo is at once flexible and distinct, both in concept and mechanics. i would totally play this class.

i really like the mechanics for Engaging Feint. it'd maybe be cool to see it come online earlier (than 7th) and maybe even set a baseline precedent for more interactivity between feinted foes and exploitative measures. just an idea, though definitely not needed.

are you going to run:

1d20+x vs 1d20+y

1d20+x vs 10+y

or 10+x vs 1d20+y

where x is the 'attacker' and y is the 'defender'?

if the first, there is no real precedence in the rules for it.
if the second, then all you are really doing is trading one complication for another (a 'touch AC' calculated slightly differently).
if the third, then using a touch attack against someone will feel like using a spell against them (save against this! ha ha).

sounds cool to me

well, your math is very square (13 x 4 = 52), and that may well be a design parameter that you very much like, as a way to give skills equal breadth, if at least from a structural standpoint.

i suppose my feedback is: consider abandoning the neat mathematical structure, and just maintain the difference between master skills and regular skills. and then restrict access via class.


Rogue has Acrobatics and Athletics, and may place standard ranks in them, effectively putting ranks in all 8 sub skills with a mere 2 skill points. whereas, Fighter has Athletics, Balance, Contort, Sneak, and Tumble on his class list, and must use 5 skill points to be equal to what a Rogue can do with just 2 skill points (ability scores being equal). whereas, Wizard has none of these skills, but may use 8 skill points to be near-equal (no +3 class bonus) to the Rogue and Fighter.

this could allow you to trim your list. just a thought. cheers.

there are 10 Knowledge skills (!), plus Appraise, Linguistics, Spellcraft, and many Craft skills. that's at least 14+ possible skills. plus traits which modify other skills to key off of INT.

i kind of like this rule i think. it echoes 1ed/2ed "# Bonus Languages"

if you do this, maybe offer a feat that grants +1 skill point per HD (similar to Toughness).

how about as a feat privilege?

got two from: Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, and/or Power Attack?

then you can perform a special Body Slam maneuver that trips and deals unarmed damage. if you are in control of a grapple, you may do so as a two-handed attack (x1.5 STR to damage).

Orich Starkhart,

first off thanks for the thoughtful feedback. my opinions about how i could see Bravery as providing a bonus to all saves, both cinematically and mechanically, were more or less spurred by this thread.

viz your question about alternate 3: yes. to any save. and yes, i might restore the 'fear good save' bit in the final version, whatever that turns out to be in this thread.

i am on the fence about whether to use a pool (i am a pool fan) for improving the Bravery ability. on the one hand, there is the line of thinking that the fighter oughtn't have any class abilities based on a finite resource (aside from action economy, of course), and on the other, the pool mechanic is an elegant mechanic that works for many classes. so i am divided about it.

the forfeiture mechanic functions similarly to a 1-point pool which renews every round - an on/off switch, or 'chip' - hence obviating the need to use arithmetic to track the resource. thus i feel it might serve as a nice middle ground. and equally as meta-gamey as a 'real' pool.

Orich Starkhart,

concerning the 'fluff' of Bravery (version 4), i mostly disagree. two examples: against dragon's breath, a 'reflex' save, the brave fighter lifts his shield up and presses on against the heat. against domination, the brave fighter's singularity of purpose proves to be a form of mental armor. given the structure of rules as rules, it's easy to fall into being 'mechanical' in our thinking about them. but i see less of a disconnect between being 'brave' and only having that represent the ability to stave off the 'fear' descriptor. but it is also true my interpretation is fueled by my desire to strengthen the bravery mechanic significantly.

but i take you point. it might be clever to restore an explicit advantage over fear effects independent of the flat bonus.

also, any positive feedback (suggestions) given with negative feedback (critique) is also appreciated.

for example, looking back over version 4, i am reconsidering the condition-removal stunts. thinking instead: 10th (full attack + move), 14th (negate crit), 18th (auto-save). i am shuffling ideas for the 6th level stunt...

...or on the concept of forfeiture itself?


i had an idea about a way to pseudo-model a Grit resource without actually using the pool mechanic. specifically, the passive aspect and the concept of forfeiture (think "so long as you retain 1 point in your pool...") rooted in the action economy.

essentially, i want the forfeiture to matter, so i'm going to propose that Bravery be a flat bonus to all saves (+1/2/3/4/5 at 2nd/6th/10th/14th/18th) but that can be forfeited for 1 round to allow the fighter to perform special actions (which will 'unlock' at 6th/10th/14th/18th) which justify the tradeoff.

seeking your feedback! especially in the creating/selecting/ordering of the special actions. heregoes:

Bravery (alternate 4):


At 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 morale bonus to all saving throws. This bonus increases by +1 every four fighter levels thereafter, to a maximum of +5 at 18th level. As the fighter gains levels, he may forfeit this bonus for 1 round to perform special actions called 'stunts' - stunts are activated as a swift action unless otherwise noted.

A 6th level fighter may forfeit his bravery bonus to temporarily suppress the effects of lesser conditions which afflict him: for 1 round he is unnaffected by the exhausted, fatigued, shaken, and sickened conditions. He must wait 1 round before repeating this stunt.

A 10th level fighter may forfeit his bravery bonus to perform a full attack and move his base speed in the same round. He must wait 1 round before repeating this stunt.

A 14th level fighter may forfeit his bravery bonus to temporarily suppress the effects of more severe conditions which afflict him: for 1 round he is unnaffected by the dazed, disabled, frightened, nauseated, panicked, staggered, and stunned conditions. He must wait 1 round before repeating this stunt.

An 18th level fighter may forfeit his bravery bonus to automatically succeed on a single saving throw. This stunt is activated as an immediate action, and the fighter must declare he is doing so instead of rolling dice.



sounds interesting. please post?

1st level Bard with 1 HP left trying to cast Cure Light Wounds on himself is playing Russian Roulette with an 8-shooter. lolz.

the 'spontaneous rebate' kinda goes against the mathematic kiss principle that implicitly underlies this entire proposal.

maybe instead they get a HP boost? either increased HD or they sub their casting stat for bonus HP?

or maybe (some? all?) casters begin each encounter with a small mana pool (slightly bigger for spontaneous) which absorbs casting strain (kinda like temporary HP) prior to tapping their HP?

this could be Casting Stat x Highest Spell Slot, double for spontaneous?

Hodge Podge,

to account for the fact that some ordinary earthlings can speak many languages, and without resorting to the feat system reflexively, what if high Intelligence characters could float ranks in separate langues for each point of INT mod?

ex: 2nd level 18-INT character, puts 2 skill point in Linguistics, yields 2x4 = 8 total ranks to be spent amongst different languages.

an idea, to clean up the ranks > HD mess, you could revert to the 3ed rank paradigm, where starting with 1-4 ranks in a language doesn't break format. just a thought.

Detect Magic,
your version is indeed much more streamlined.

i suppose i'd like to make a hard separation between Ki Strike (Ex) and Ki Pool (Su).

so, Ki Strike doesn't actually need Ki, and maintains the 4/7/10/16 progression (which i like):

Ki Strike (version 3):


At 4th level, a monk may ignore up to 5 points of damage reduction or hardness with his unarmed strikes, regardless of it's type. This is an extraordinary ability.

At 7th level, he may ignore up to 10 points of damage reduction or hardness with his unarmed strikes.

At 10th level, he may ignore up to 15 points of damage reduction or hardness with his unarmed strikes.

At 16th level, the monk may completely ignore damage reduction and hardness with his unarmed strikes, regardless of it's type or amount.


i will post a Ki Pool alternate at some point with enhancement bonus included.

intrigued but cannot access?

Remco Sommeling,

the list essentially contains 'compound' rogue skills (skills which used to be 2-3 skills in 3ed) and magicky skills. they might be suitable for a fighter, but would require more concentrated training (in my opinion) to become really excellent at. that, and they are damn useful skills, so i command a higher 'price' for them.

also, concerning your last suggestion, check out version 2 above

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