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is there a function to Bluff a mark into or out of existence?

i suspect if the OP wanted to NOT create his own class he would NOT post in homebrew...

cool idea!

go with Scythe and Sickle. This guy is a harvester.

also i would cast off of Wisdom, not Charisma. 2E necros needed WIS as I remember. That way there could be diversity/madness in the class kind of like how cleric casts of WIS but channels off CHA.

Well of Souls/Soul Reaping - i would model this ability after Grit to cut down the math. you could tie it to his Aura too. somebody within his Aura die? reap 1 Soul. the presence of points in this pool creates the fear effects. this ability could be CHA based. also, possibly the Summon I-IX spells draw from here?

add an ability that if someone dies, and the Necromancer 'summons' then specifically, they rise right there into a dominated super zombie? this could be a horrible higher level ability.

Touch of Death - i would base this ability in the Well of Souls pool and give greater effects (for greater cost) as level increase. like enervation with no save.

Embrace the Grave - how about 1 DR per 2 levels for simplicity?

consider creating a line of talents (Dark Arts?) that hit every odd level starting with 3rd. this is where i would lodge the option for weapon interaction with Touch of death for example (Death Blade?). lots of potential here. you could even borrow some of the nasties from Alchemist...

just throwing out ideas.

i'm thinking of tweaking the warrior path a bit.

the monk's "AC Bonus", which grants +1/+2/+3/+4/+5 to AC at 4/8/12/16/20, i am thinking of granting to the warrior monk also as an enhancement bonus to attack and damage as a passive ki ability (instead of 4/7/10/13/16). just so that bonus is simplified.

then, the 10th level 'special quality' ability i am thinking of making distinct from this. like, bumping it down to a lower level and allowing it to grant the special quality for 1 minute for 1 ki per +1 - stacking on top of the 'regular' enhancement bonus above.

what would be a good progression? +1/+2/+3/+4 at 4/7/10/13? (those are the same levels the mystic monk gets new spell levels). remember it has to compensate somewhat for the retarding of the 'regular' enhancement bonus.

(also bear in mind the ki strike ability will take care of DR)

plus see my changes to ki pool.

Ki Strike (version 4):


A 4th level monk who retains 1 point of ki in his pool may make a ki strike with his unarmed attacks or with ki-attuned monk weapons. A ki strike bypasses one point of damage resistance or hardness per monk level.

At 16th level, the monk's ki strike automatically bypasses all damage resistance and hardness.


clarified the language.
threw an additional bone at the end.
after all, the whole point of this ability is to synergize sneak attack!

Ambush (New):


At 3rd level the rogue becomes adept at setting up and responding to well-executed surprise attacks. She may ignore less than total concealment caused by darkness, fog, and smoke. If she is able to act during a surprise round, she may act as if it were a normal full round, instead of being restricted to a standard action. Finally, she gains Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.



if you wanted to apply your 'mark' system more conservatively, possibly as a half way compromise between the two extreme viewpoints (mis-?)expressed up and down this thread, you could borrow the 'trigger' from one fellow poster's strain-injury rules.

namely, that three special conditions (only) warrant a 'mark' - serious injury (confirmation of a critical hit), botching (rolling a natural '1' on) a saving throw, or the felling (reducing to 0 HP or less) of a foe.

just throwing out ideas.

changes to this iteration:

1) selection process simplified: max ranks only
2) vague language about 'action steps' eliminated
3) clarification on what skills can have time/action reduced explicit
4) border between standard and move action economy stricter
5) take 10 > take 20 circumstances made clearer

Skill Mastery (version 7):


Rogues hone their bodies and minds through continuous practice, becoming capable of extraordinary feats of raw skill. A rogue gains a competence bonus to all skills she has maximum ranks for equal to half her rogue level (minimum +1). These skills are hereafter referred to as her mastery skills.

At 3rd level, when using a mastery skill, the rogue may elect to roll twice and take the better result or simply take 10 on the check, regardless of distractions. This does not increase the amount of time it takes to make the check.

At 7th level, when using a mastery skill, the rogue halves the amount of time required to make the check. Applications that normally require a full-round can be attempted as a standard action. This ability does not function with job skills (Craft, Perform, and Profession) nor with the skills which modify or enable movement (Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Stealth, and Swim).

At 11th level, the rogue may treat all skills as class skills, may use any skill untrained, and may elect to take 10 on any skill check she makes with any skill.

At 15th level, when using a mastery skill, the rogue quarters the amount of time required to make the check. Applications that normally require a full-round or standard action can be attempted as a move action, and applications that normally require a move action can be attempted as a swift action. Similarly, this ability does not function with job or movement skills.

At 19th level, whenever circumstances would ordinarily allow for taking 10 on a skill check, the rogue may instead take 20, without increasing the amount of time required to make the check.


seeking input on changes.
especially if this achieves the end of restoring rogue's place as king of skills.

eta for print version to hit shelf? 2 months?

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right. does the 10th level cunning rogue suddenly have the privilege to keep one eye behind the DM screen or to question every roll the DM makes "in case I might use my cunning ability"? fun-killer right there!

maybe the 10th level function simply imposes a worst-of-two roll, obviating any need for prior knowledge?:

Cunning (new):


Rogues live on the edge, surviving by a combinations of uncanny instinct, quick wits, and sheer luck. Once per day, after rolling an attack roll, skill check, or saving throw, the rogue may immediately either re-roll it or add in her Intelligence bonus (if any). She may not do both, and is bound to this altered result. At 3rd level, and again every three rogue levels, the rogue gains an additional use of this ability, to a maximum of 7 times per day at 18th level.

At 10th level, a rogue may instead use this ability to force an opponent's attack roll, skill check, or saving throw to be rolled twice with the lowest result taken. This is an immediate action, and may only be used on rolls which are directly opposed by the rogue herself. If her opponent is also using cunning, the effects cancel each other out, and the original roll is kept unmodified.

As an optional rule, a 1st level rogue may choose another mental ability score (Wisdom or Charisma) to govern this ability, instead of Intelligence. Once this choice is made it cannot be altered.

i see some wriggle-room where it says "Some requests automatically fail if the request goes against the creature's values or it's nature, subject to DM discretion."

this could be ordinarily true, except in the case of a charmed or dominated creature. in which case the request itself is treated as Hostile or Unfriendly to the creature's "values"/"nature" (why don't they say "alignment"?) and this sets the base DC at 25 or 20 respectively, in addition to triggering a new saving throw (with the +4 ethics bonus).

complicated hostile/unfriendly requests which take days/weeks to set into motion may or may not offer additional saves at various frequencies.

(an interesting side effect here might be that a TN character is easier to control because, arguably, no alignment can be considered hostile...)

Goth Guru wrote:
How about the thieves guildmaster uses cunning on his use magic device to operate a wand of fireballs. Then he uses cunning to ruin the party's best fighter's saving throw.

even better: thieves guildmaster, a 10th level cunning rogue (who switched the ability to be based on CHA at level 1 and has a CHA of 20 by level 10) uses skill mastery to eliminate failure with a wand of baleful polymorph, and uses his cunning against the party's best fighter to either bestow a -5 to his saving throw (CHA 20) or to force him to re-roll the dice.

you know what, now that i say that, it is unclear what information the cunning rogue gets before she decides to declare a re-roll: (1) just the fact that a dice was rolled, (2) what the number on the dice was, or (3) what the result will be before meddling?

in the case of 2, is the DM willing to render transparent his/her die rolls to the cunning rogue (as they pertain to her)?

Amanuensis wrote:
Building on top of that, charm person could be treated like other spells you want to address: Giving a bonus on Diplomacy checks (and maybe ending prematurely if you fail to make a request?).

I think the OP's intent is not to have Charm grant a bonus to Diplomacy checks, but rather to have Diplomacy checks make a Charm spell even sweeter.

so, instead of having to roll Diplomacy to make an NPC friendly, they just have to fail a Will save. After that, once you have established a magical basis for control, skills checks are used to navigate the aftermath.

maybe there becomes such a thing as subdual ability damage - which lasts for 10 minutes - and you create a new maneuver which inflicts 1 point of subdual ability damage +1 for every 5 by which the CMB attack exceeds the CMD. like:

Devastating Strike
A fighter may use a devastating strike in combination with any other maneuver. If the maneuver succeeds, the foe takes subdual ability damage equal to 1 + 1/5 by which the CMB exceeds the CMD.
Each maneuver may not be paired with each ability damage morethan once against the same foe per 24 hours.

a vast gulf separates 'reactive' and 'retroactive' - with the latter being a more meaningful use of the ability nearly every time, rather than a mere shot in the dark.

i would even weigh the 'extra' feat more greatly:

Extra Cunning (new feat)
Prerequisite: Cunning 2/day
Benefit: You gain an additional daily use of your cunning ability
Special: You may take this feat multiple times

new prof req:

15 ST - heavy armor, 1-H

13 ST - medium armor, 2-H

(without sufficient ST, considered non-prof)


consider allowing +1/2x to all rank-maxed skills. no lists to create.

more sneak attack opportunities? eliminate basic concealment or try something like this or create new talents.

i definitely think odd ability scores ought to serve as pre-reqs. so, ST 13 for power attack, 15 for hand-and-a-half, etc.

Pendagast wrote:

Im starting to like the STR limitation idea… it would see a resurgence of the use of a short sword as well (seeing as characters under a certain str could no longer one hand a longsword)

t would also put the kibosh on dervish dancing magi dumping str (can't one hand a scimitar with an 8 str)

Same should go for armor (STR requirements)
current rules have no draw back to wearing full plate with a low str score if you are proficient

good point. i like this idea as well. especially if DX-to-damage is opened up, giving ST another function to compensate (and discourage dumping)

if you think of CHA as a sort of metaphysical STR it might make sense why it is used as an opposed roll for Charms. think of it like arm-wrestling - if you are not winning, you are losing.

that said, as not every character will have Sense Motive, i would go a similar route as feint by offering SM as a 'back-up' defense. that is, consider letting it 'sub in' if (and only if) it is higher than the base DC to resist Diplomacy checks against a Charmed creature - and make this base defense 10 + HD + CHA.

SO it could go like this: The Witch casts Charm on the King (CHA 15) who fails his Will save. The King, a fool, is not trained in Sense Motive (or has only a single rank, whatever), yet he is still a 5-HD Aristocrat NPC. To influence him further, the Witch must succeed on a Diplomacy check against DC 17 (10 + 5HD + 2CHA). To do the same to the Prince (WIS 14, 4 HD, 4 ranks in class skill Sense Motive), she must beat a DC 19.

Thus, both Wisdom and Charisma play a role in getting Charmed.

i just realized this is actually more a change to 'regular' Diplomacy than anything else...

Summon Monster/Ally should have some sort of additional mechanism in place that restricts it's latitude.

Da'ath wrote:
I'm seriously considering that when the alignment is adjusted on a particular topic, that it "remain" adjusted for the duration of the spell, as well as reducing the victims saving throw for further castings of the spell (i.e. extending the spell) while the initial effect is still ongoing.

i say alignment 'remains' altered, but, that it's doesn't reduce the victim's saving throw further. because, the Witch can always try again in 24 hours.

consider making rules for multiple Witches exerting Domination over the same King. CHA ability checks? different alignment every day!

this is brilliant btw.

Da'ath wrote:
Overall, I think I like the idea of "cunning". Frankly, I don't see it as terribly powerful...

i couldn't disagree with you more. being able to re-roll (or retroactively add in a stat bonus!) on essentially any die roll is pretty amazing. and Cunning as written above allows either!

speaking specifically to the retroactive adding, most failed attacks/saves/skills are not missed by a narrow margin - more often than not they are clear successes or failures (certainly to a seasoned gamer!) and so adding +2 or +4 has no actual effect on the outcome (because the difference between success and failure exceeds 2 or 4) - therefore at times when the difference between success and failure is narrow (especially if the risk is high - like saving throws), this ability bridges that gap. in effect, Cunning is functionally similar to adding +INT to all saving throws (ie functionally similar to Divine Grace).

at least, that is how i see it.

this is why it is important to strictly restrict it's use - not having it be as plentiful as Grit or even Ki - hence, the 1/3x+1 model.

do you think a 10th level party could/should handle that?

first, my line of comparison is drawn with rage powers or discoveries, not feats, in terms of balancing. thus, the general concept 'worth a feat and then some' is something i'm comfortable with.

all three allow feinting as a move action. this is what Improved Feint does. also, all three only allow access to the 'swift' function by requiring the rogue to adopt a tactic that is typically sub-par, if thematic (for Crack Shot, no bow 'n arrows, for Flick of Wrist, no TWFing, for Swordplay, no shields or greatswords, etc...). Thus, even if not using the thematic options (Hand X-bow, Dagger, Rapier, respectively), there is still wriggle room to make these feats useful for other (more optimal) styles. But, being thematic (and consequently sub-par) gets a little boost.

to me switching the skill from Bluff is neither here nor there. Bluff is a versatile skill. outsourcing it to Sleight of Hand is no contest. I could see the concern with Perception (don't forget range penalties!), but, all-in-all, i think viable (even mobile) feinting should be much easier access for a rogue. thus, at the cost of one talent.

two dice for strike talents
what is neat here is that the rogue dead-BAB levels (5/9/13/17) are enriched by allowing at those levels the option of stacking on yet another strike talent (3d6/5d6/7d6/9d6 aka 2/3/4/5 talents) at the cost of 2 dice each. many of the talents have effects calculated based on SA dice rolled, remember, so those will be in reduced effect. so, the question is, do the talents that don't interact with number of SA dice (like Slow Reactions, for example) lend themselves to breaking the game if allowed to stack with one another?

the basic premise here is to try to use a vehicle that already exists (Sneak Attack) to increase the battlefield control utility potential of the rogue.

further, do you think carte blanche for cunning with strike talents is overboard? i figure that cunning is 'expensive' enough to make the decision a tactically difficult one.

new talents!:

Crack Shot
Using a ranged weapon the rogue may attempt a feint against her target using her Perception skill (instead of Bluff). This is a move action. She may feint out to point blank range (usually 30 feet). If she keeps one hand free while doing so, she may instead feint as a swift action.

Flick of the Wrist
Using a light melee weapon the rogue may attempt a feint against her target using her Sleight of Hand skill (instead of Bluff). This is a move action. If the light weapon is also a thrown weapon, she may feint out to point blank range (usually 30 feet). If she keeps one hand free while doing so, she may instead feint as a swift action.

The rogue gains Improved Feint as a bonus feat. If she is using a one-handed piercing or slashing weapon while keeping the other hand free, she may instead feint as a swift action.

i want to offer strong incentives to keeping one hand free - in this case increased mobility


also what to you guys think of this:


Rogue Talents

As a rogue gains experience, she learns a number of talents that aid her and confound her foes. Starting at 2nd level, a rogue gains one rogue talent. She gains an additional rogue talent for every 2 levels of rogue attained after 2nd level. A rogue cannot select an individual talent more than once.

Rogue talents with an asterisk (*) are called strike talents because they modify a rogue's sneak attack by adding a secondary effect to it. A rogue may normally only use one strike talent per sneak attack. However, if she knows multiple strike talents, she may trade out two sneak attack dice (2d6) for each additional strike talent she wishes to layer into a single attack. This cannot reduce the number of sneak attack dice to zero. She must always declare which strike talents she is using before making a sneak attack.

As an optional rule, a rogue with the cunning ability may expend one use of it to gain the knowledge of one strike talent she doesn't ordinarily know for 1 round. This is a swift action. For that round, she may use that talent for any number of sneak attacks she makes.

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where i don't want to create that expectation, i do want the rogue chassis to be flexible. Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma all govern a very different set of skills, and i think it'd be nice to be able to play a rogue whose skill choice can be meaningfully backed up by raising the proper mental stat in a way that offers incentives within the mechanics to do so.

check out this guy's rogue. he solves the quandary by offering the Cunning-CHA option as sort of an archetype by renaming the pool to Panache.

rogue is the original investigator

stat bonus
i am choosing to run with Intelligence because although the cunning ability is very broad, one very special function it has is shoring up a weakness of the rogue - defenses. specifically, saving throws. in effect, so long as the rogue has cunning, she has +INT to any saving throw. i think that part of the rogue's challenge is to accept that because they have weaker defenses compared to other classes, but more skill points and some offensive capabilities, that they must play their characters in such a way as to gain advantages against enemies to offset their relative weakness. that said, i think keeping a (limited) trick up their sleeve in case of emergency is a very thematic way of offering a boost to defenses without doing it outright (for example, changing Fortitude or Will to the good track). finally, as the stars must sometimes align for the rogue to obtain strategic advantages, having a re-roll mechanic will help them not to botch the final roll which has been painstakingly set up. so, there is a little bit of 'your best defense is a strong offense' baked in.

forcing re-rolls
this is powerful indeed. i guess i instilled two checks on it in attempt to balance it. the first is access - this ability is not available until 10th level. so, do you think this ability is too good even for a 10th level non-spellcasting character? the second is context - essentially, the rogue may only use this on rolls which are 'contested' or 'opposed' with her included - she can't counter a spell with it, but she can effectively raise her AC (sort of) by forcing her opponent to re-roll an attack. she can't interfere with rolls she is not a part of. so, bearing that in mind, is the ability still too good? what abuses are there?


mastery skills may now be selected daily

Skill Mastery (version 6):


Rogues inherently master many different kinds of skills - their general philosophy of living on the edge means they get continuous practice in doing so. A rogue who has invested the maximum number of ranks in a skill may add half her rogue level (minimum +1) as a competence bonus to skills checks with that skill. This is an extraordinary ability.

A rogue of 3rd level or higher may select a number of skills equal to 1 plus her Intelligence bonus (if any) every morning to be her mastery skills for that day. She may opt to roll twice or simply take 10 (rogue's choice) when using one of her daily mastery skills, no matter the circumstance. After 6 hours of rest and recovery, the rogue may prepare a new set. For every four additional rogue levels she attains, the rogue may prepare an additional mastery skill, until at 19th level she may prepare up to 5 plus her Intelligence bonus per day.

If the rogue is using the optional Cunning mechanic (see below), she may swap out a single mastery skill as a standard action. Doing so expends one daily usage of that ability. Additionally, if the rogue uses a different ability score for Cunning, she may use that same ability score for skill mastery instead of Intelligence.

Optionally, additional abilities unlock at higher rogue levels. At 7th level a rogue's mastery skills may be performed one action step faster without penalty (full-round to standard, standard to move, move to swift). At 11th level, a rogue treats all skills as class skills, may use any skill untrained, and may take 10 on all skill checks unrestricted. At 15th level, a rogue's mastery skills may be performed two action steps faster without penalty. At 19th level, any time a rogue would ordinarily be able to take 10 on a skill check, she may instead take 20 without increasing the time to make the check. These are extraordinary abilities.

added 10th level ability to re-roll opponent's dice

Cunning (Ex):


Rogues live on the edge, surviving by a combinations of uncanny instinct, quick wits, and sheer luck. Consequently, once per day the rogue may retroactively add her Intelligence bonus to or simply re-roll any d20 check. She may not do both, and is bound to the altered result, even if it is worse. This is a free action and may be used for reactive rolls (such as saving throws). At 3rd level, and again every three rogue levels, the rogue gains an additional daily use of cunning. This is an extraordinary ability.

At 10th level, a rogue may instead use this ability to subtract her Intelligence bonus from or force a re-roll of an opponent's d20 check which directly opposes her (such as an attack roll). This is an immediate action. If her opponent is also using cunning, the effects cancel each other out, and the original roll is kept unmodified.

As an optional rule, a 1st level rogue may choose another mental ability score (Wisdom or Charisma) to govern this ability (instead of Intelligence). Once this choice is made it cannot be altered.

like, if using a single vital strike attack, by which each 5 the attack beats the AC, the target must move 5 feet?

you need a class table. here!

Monk of the Four Winds

HD - d10
BAB - full
Saves - all
Skills - 4

01: AC Bonus (+1/2), Unarmed Strike (1d4), Flurry of Blows (TWF), Stunning Fist
02: Evasion, Fleet Footed (swift)
03: Honed, Fast Movement, Maneuver Training (1 feat)
04: Ki Pool, Slowfall
05: Purity of Body, Acrobatic, Unarmed (1d6)
06: Insightful Strike, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Spider Step
07: Wholeness of Body
08: Abundant Step (move), Flurry (ITWF)
09: Improved Evasion, Maneuver Training (2 feats)
10: Honed Focus, Unarmed (1d8), Fleet Footed (immediate)
11: Diamond Body
12: Slow Time, Abundant Step (swift), Cloud Step
13: Diamond Soul
15: Quivering Palm, Unarmed (1d10), Flurry (GTWF)
17: Timeless Body
19: Empty Body
20: Unarmed (2d6), Immortality

1) i proposed a split from a more fast-combat 'warrior' to a more spell-choosing 'mystic' monk, and called it Mystic Path.

2) what about starting at 1d6 and increasing number of dice? this lines up the Vital Strike chain and gives a solid boost to damage. i am considering these changes to Flurry of Blows.

3) i altered Fast Movement to also enable movement plus full-attacking. your idea sounds good too.

4) Slow Fall must be compared to Featherfall in terms of it's power level. i give my monks a free pass if they are deliberate or near a wall.

5) is there a good arguement against allowing Wholeness of Body to 1/day act like Heal?

6) I dislike armor for the core monk. consider instead allowing the monk Wisdom as a striking stat in addition to an 'armor' and 'ability' stat. Dabbler does a good job of that here.

I am torn between these two.

it is important to note that both versions will probably be used with a monk chassis who gets Wisdom as an alternate to-hit score (similar to weapon finesse) and an in-built enhancement bonus to attack aligned with the AC Bonus ability (+1/+2/+3/+4/+5 at 4th/8th/12th/16th/20th) - thus, even as both eschew virtual-full-BAB-less-two, most of the accuracy difficulties ought to be mitigated.

the "natural attack" version (8.5) is neat because it is arguably the least intensive change - how it interacts with the rest of the game is pretty straightforward. that each attack is made at the same to-hit bonus - the highest! - means less attacks but more effective ones. also, only a single number to remember. what is new below is the unarmed damage (hence 8.5 not 8.0). starting at 1d6, and progressing to 2d6/3d6/4d6/5d6 at 'dead-BAB' levels 5/9/13/17, makes each level offensively meaningful. further, the increased number of dice (rather than just die type) sets this up for the vital strike line very nicely - which i might just throw on top at levels 6/11/16.

Flurry of Blows (version 8.5):


"Natural Attack"

01: +0/+0 at 1d6
02: +1/+1
03: +2/+2
04: +3/+3
05: +3/+3 at 2d6
06: +4/+4
07: +5/+5
08: +6/+6/+6
09: +6/+6/+6 at 3d6
10: +7/+7/+7
11: +8/+8/+8
12: +9/+9/+9
13: +9/+9/+9 at 4d6
14: +10/+10/+10
15: +11/+11/+11/+11
16: +12/+12/+12/+12
17: +12/+12/+12/+12 at 5d6
18: +13/+13/+13/+13
19: +14/+14/+14/+14
20: +15/+15/+15/+15

the "whirlwind" version (9.0), though unorthodox, has a lot of 'cool factor' going for it. to the extent that it abstracts multiple attacks means it will interact with the current rule system strangely. like it's counterpart above, the math was designed to be easy, which is a plus. finally, the idea above (upthread two posts) to target Reflex instead of AC for 1 ki point gives the monk even more options in terms of accuracy.

Flurry of Blows (version 9.0):



01: +0 at 1d6 (2 foes)
02: +1
03: +2 at 2d6
04: +3
05: +3 at 3d6 (3 foes)
06: +4
07: +5 at 4d6
08: +6
09: +6 at 5d6 (4 foes)
10: +7
11: +8 at 6d6
12: +9
13: +9 at 7d6 (5 foes)
14: +10
15: +11 at 8d6
16: +12
17: +12 at 9d6 (all foes)
18: +13
19: +14 at 10d6
20: +15


which one do you folks like better, version 8 or 9?

throwing some ideas at you.

consider this:

Marking is a move action (swift with feat), an extension of the aid another rules, deliverable via any social skill (DC 10), which applies a -2 penalty to hit/DC to any attack/spell that does not include the marker, for one round. In order to take effect, the marker must attack their victim in the same round.

Marks do not stack - the newest always replaces the oldest.

Diplomacy: effect lasts up to 1 minute.
Bluff: effect transposes one ally as the marker.
Intimidate: effect broadcasts to all enemies within 30 feet.

i'm with Da'ath.

don't force, discourage.

also, consider allowing Sense Motive to play a part.

not my jam, but cool concept.

what is the DC of splashing witchfire if no spell is sacrificed? this is unclear in your document.

why no familiar?

also, what if you set up his spellcasting like an Arcanist (prepared/spontaneous hybrid)? this seems appropriate given his need of both INT and CHA. further, what if his spells known was keyed to INT, where his spell DCs were keyed to CHA?

finally, the sentence under witchfire touch attack "so long as he has at least one witchfire remaining" is totally redundant.

fair enough. i will hold the question in my mind about that system's reconciliation of the contributing factors of 'armor' and 'dodge' creating a single defense score called 'reflex'...

half damage on a miss is pretty bad-ass, as is being able to target a high-AC enemy's potentially-much-lower reflex save. thus the cost of 1 ki point. to boot, it can be visualized as the monk simply moving faster, which is thematically the same as the extra ki attack, which this would replace.

ki pool (alternate) wrote:

A monk who reaches 4th level gains a ki pool with a number of points in it equal to half his monk level plus his wisdom bonus (if any). This replenishes on a daily basis.

While the monk retains one or more points in his pool, he may make a ki strike when fighting unarmed or using a ki-sensitive weapon. He may also exhaust his ki pool to move with deadly speed and agility. By expending one point from his ki pool while flurrying, in lieu of making an attack roll, the monk may have each target of his flurry instead roll a Reflex saving throw for half damage. Alternatively, the monk may expend one ki point to increase his fast movement bonus by +20 for 1 round. Finally, he may expend one ki point to grant himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round. All of these abilities are activated as a swift action.

Ki pool is a supernatural ability.

or maybe the switch from targeting AC to targeting Reflex (for half) can be what happens when you charge your flurry with a ki point:

ki pool wrote:
A monk may expend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action while using his flurry of blows ability. In lieu of rolling an attack roll, all of the monk's targets instead must make a Reflex save. If they fail this save, they take full damage from the flurry; if they succeed, they take half damage from the flurry.

this is brilliant.

i think i want to change the wording of Sleight to the same wording you have for Aim. i like the mechanic of having other skills essentially sub in for Bluff to feint. is there an Intelligence-based skill that could be used to feint?

changes from above:

1) INT not double-dipped (thx Ciaran)
2) skill action economy increased (thx Kekkres)
3) the 'skill mastery' advanced talent (above) simply included (and expanded)

Skill Mastery (version 5):


The rogue is the undisputed master of skills. Whenever using a skill for which she has invested maximum ranks, she gains a competence bonus to her check equal to half her rogue level (minimum +1).

At 3rd level, the rogue chooses a number of skills equal to her Intelligence bonus (minimum one). These skills become class skills. Whenever she uses one of these skills, she may either roll twice and take the better result, or simply take 10 on the roll, even if distractions would otherwise hinder her from doing so. Every odd rogue level thereafter (at 5th, 7th, 9th, etc.), she may choose another skill to be a skill mastery skill.

At 7th level, when using a skill mastery skill, the rogue may perform any action that is normally a standard action as a move action.

At 11th level, the rogue may treat all skills as class skills, may use any skill untrained, and may take 10 using any skill even if distractions would ordinarily prevent her.

At 15th level, when using a skill mastery skill, the rogue may perform any action that is normally a move action as a swift action.

At 19th level, when using a skill mastery skill, the rogue may perform any action that is normally a swift action as an immediate action.


01- Sneak Attack, Skill Mastery, Trapfinding
02- Rogue Talents, Evasion
03- Skill Mastery, Trap Sense
04- Rogue Talent, Uncanny Dodge
06- Rogue Talent
07- Skill Mastery
08- Rogue Talent, Improved Uncanny Dodge
10- Advanced Talents, Rogue Talent
11- Skill Mastery


more robust but worth the extra paragraphs?

this wouldn't be necessary unless you reeled in the good save in addition to boosting the bad save. narrowing the gap between good and bad save, while keeping the good save mathematically intact, is an idea i am interested in.

before factoring in attributes, the difference moves from 6 to 2 (+12 minus +6 vs +12 minus +10), or from 30% to 10%, at the upper limit, and stays constant (at 10%) through the lower levels.

after factoring in attributes, is there a good reason not to allow two attributes vie for substantiating the base save? we are talking about getting ST, INT, CHA to 'count' for saves rather than be independent from them.

bad idea?

fine spiced dried meat rolled in a mint leaf

nate lange wrote:

Graceful Combatant

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, +1 BAB
Benefit: You may apply your Dex modifier in place of your Str modifier on damage rolls you make with any weapon that benefits from weapon finesse. This bonus is not increased if the weapon is used in two hands but is halved for an off-hand weapon.

Slashing Grace
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.
Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls even though it isn't a light weapon and you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler’s or a duelist’s precise strike). The weapon must be appropriately sized for you in order to gain these benefits.

Double Precision
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting, Graceful Combatant
Benefit: When using the Graceful Combatant feat, you may apply your full Dex modifier to weapon damage rolls on attacks made with your off-hand.

nice. consider adding an addendum to Graceful Combatant which includes any Strength penalty to damage - ie a ST-7 DX-18 character getting a +2 to damage...

ok. how about:

Bad Save: half character level
Good: half character level plus class bonus (+2)

(for example, 20th level rogue, before ability scores: F+10, R+12, W+10)

anyone done the analysis on what happens if saving throws are given a choice between two stats to key from?

Fort - ST or CON
Ref - DX or INT
Will - WIS or CHA

does anybody do this?

consider advancing wildshape at odd (rather than even) levels?

Divination Pool (Su):


a 2nd level ovate gains a pool of points equal to half his ovate level plus his Wisdom modifier. this pool replenishes on a daily basis.
so long the ovate retains at least one point in his pool he remains under a continuous effect of the Comprehend Languages spell.
he may expend one point from his pool to speak as though using Tongues for 1 minute.
he may expend one point to treat any 1st-level spell from the Cleric spell list as a known spell for 1 round. doing so is a swift action, and he become staggered the following round. as he learns to cast higher level spells, he may similarly expend one point per spell level to access higher level spells.
upon reaching 10th level, he may expend his entire pool to use Legend Lore as a spell-like ability. doing so leaves him fatigued for 1 hour.

cool concept!

the fact that he is a 9-level caster is implied rather than explicitly stated.

basically you toned down wildshape and traded in some bard lore abilities, then? consider instead keeping wildshape as is (or make it better?) and cutting BAB to half? if he is a peacemaker he really oughtn't carry any weapons (in the classic sense) and instead rely totally on magic. i would expand his magic options to compensate. i get a sense your mechanics don't quite support your theme here.

i would drop Soothing Words way down - like to 3rd or something? esp if you take away weapons he should be able to defeat his enemies another way.

maybe give him a 'pool' to 'draw on ancestral knowledge' or somesuch? (based on WIS?)

the sorcerer gets new spells at even levels. i would reconfigure your table to account for that. some levels (7, 13) come to be dead levels.

lot of potential here.

also what's super clever about it is that it inventivizes class loyalty. since no other class gets 8 ranks, multiclassing makes it much harder to specialize in multiple skills.

concerning your suggestion to simply grant a mastery at each odd level, i wanted the mechanic to give a greater reward to a rogue who prioritizes Intelligence, without totally penalizing a rogue who doesn't. then again, the 'max rank bonus' does this implicitly (by allowing a high-INT rogue to get that competence bonus to a broader range of skills), never-the-less, having it function the way it is written allows a very-high-INT rogue (say 18 or 20) to double/triple-dip his INT score and get an impressive host of mastery skills, thus allowing an investigator-type rogue to be possible by arranging the ability scores differently (INT>DX vs DX>INT) within the same class chassis.

also, i might change the name back to Skill Execution, as i would like to keep the Skill Mastery advanced talent above.

maybe instead of progressing damage dice, you advance the critical hit spec?

so 1d8 damage (constant) x19/x18/x17/x16/x15 at 4th/8th/12th/16th/20th

true, that is strange. but then again not so much. practice makes perfect, no? just because an olympic gymnast can stick a medal-winning maneuver once does not mean they can always do it - performance at that highest tier requires continuous practice, which means always putting a 'rank' in the skill you are perfecting.

how about 'floating ranks'?

Skill Flexibility (new feat):


Requirements: Skill Mastery, Rogue level 3+
Benefits: You gain +3 additional skill ranks. Unlike normal skill ranks, these ranks may be re-assigned each morning after 6 hours of rest. You gain +1 additional rank for every rogue level you attain, or for every four levels in a different character class.



Skill Mastery (version 4.5):


The rogue is the undisputed master of skills. Whenever using a skill for which she has invested maximum ranks, she gains a competence bonus to her check equal to half her rogue level (minimum +1).

At 3rd level, the rogue chooses a number of skills equal to her Intelligence bonus (minimum one). Whenever she uses one of these skills, she may either roll twice and take the better result, or simply take 10 on the roll, even if distractions would otherwise hinder her from doing so. At 7th level, and again every four rogue levels, she chooses another set of skills to become skill mastery skills.

01- Sneak Attack, Skill Mastery, Trapfinding
02- Rogue Talents, Evasion
03- Skill Mastery, Trap Sense
04- Rogue Talent, Uncanny Dodge
06- Rogue Talent
07- Skill Mastery
08- Rogue Talent, Improved Uncanny Dodge


(thanks for the inspiration)

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