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a player of mine asked me after our sunday game if he could rebuild his urban ranger into a brave fighter (after seeing it).
i said "Yes!"
that means there is one Brave Fighter, one Cunning Rogue, and one Mystic Monk within the player group now...
the whole 'tiers of fame' as separate from 'prestige points' was an unnecessary distinction.
now players just get fame points (FP) for leveling and completing objectives, and can spend them on privileges.
I am going to give them the Leadership feat for free but at half leadership score - if they take the feat they get the full score. But, they must leverage their fame each time they want to recruit followers or cohorts per the rules above - they don't simply materialize out of thin plot.
your input appreciated!
awesome concept, slightly more complicated than i like.
i think if you standardized the number of boons you'd keep the idea and shed half of the complexity. like:
Base DC 10, supports 6 people and/or horses, choose one boon per +5 you exceed the DC, each boon selectable up to twice
Bigger Camp: +2 campers supported (may be selected more than twice)
mechanically not conceptually
also, as it centers the duration on you, the 'reaving' could be an ongoing effect that takes a standard/attack action to activate per foe and a free (concentration) action to maintain. which opens the door wider to having steady ongoing effects (like auras, HP drain, cumulative penalties, etc) as well as heavy blast effects.
Each Settlement has a score from -10 to +10 max in each category
Settlement Modifiers (alternate)
modify social checks to Bribe city officials
Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate
not a fan of Stealth checks
Corruption - Bribe
5) model rage. 4+CHA rounds per day + 2/lv. during which time reaver may make a number of reave attacks as allowable by BAB. damage 1d6 per odd + crit proc menu option (may select shaken, sicken, or fatigue) duration of reave-rage.
Ok. considering this for math simplicity among other things.
Weapon Training works as above. except take away the +1 att/dam option. must pick feats! want numbers/uninspired? choose WF and WS, GWF and GWS.
In it's place, we say any weapons that are currently weapon training weapons suffer no iterative attack penalties. so:
Weapon Training BAB
my question is: does this have undesired consequences?
Since the feats require the use of a specific weapon, they are mutually exclusive (though, admittedly, for some feats it would be hard to justify that they only work with a specific weapon).
no small suggestion here. but. what if these feats worked for all weapons in the same weapon group (see Fighter) as the focus weapon, but worked even better for the focus weapon?
for example, the skill synergy concept could only be granted while using the focus weapon.
maybe a 1-pt Privilege could be to attempt a social check (Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate) to influence a (smaller) organization's attitude with respect to you (Hostile, Unfriendly, Indifferent, Friendly, Helpful) - after which, if you want to stay on good terms (Friendly or Helpful) you must spend 1 or 2 days a week on average fulfilling your end of the obligation, else you must make another check each week at cumulative +1 DC lest your relationship status slide one step towards Indifferent.
Naturally, if you are on certain terms with one organization, a rival organization may consider you on similar terms with them as default.
Also, you gain a faction bonus on social rolls.
i think this proposal single-handedly solves the fighter's feat versatility problems. whether or not you put in even minimal work consolidating feat trees in your game.
Weapon Training (version 2):
Fighters train continuously. Once per day after a full nights rest, the fighter may subject himself to a 1 hour training regimen, wherein he trains additional weapon-dependent combat feats at the completion of his exercises. At 1st level he may choose one weapon group and one combat feat. Until he trains again, so long as he is using a weapon from that group, he is treated as having that feat, and if the feat usually only grants it’s benefits to a single weapon, it now grants it’s benefits to all weapons in the same group. Feats selected using this ability must have their prerequisites met using BAB from fighter levels only.
In lieu of making a feat selection, the fighter may simply choose to add +1 to hit and damage with weapons in his trained group. This bonus stacks with itself.
At 5th level, the fighter may similarly train a second weapon group, and may select two combat feats for his first group. At 9th level, he may choose a third group, two feats for his second group, and three feats for his first group. And so on every four fighter levels, until at 17th level the fighter may choose five groups each with one, two, three, four, or five associated feats. This is an extraordinary ability.
the basic idea is here
and though I am pretty unsatisfied with the implementation, i think the raw idea is really cool.
what I want to keep:
-Starting Fame equal to character level + CHA
what I want to change:
-Fame tiers 10/20/30/40/50 let you spend Prestige on 1/2/3/4/5-pt Privileges respectively
'medium' is my floor.
I'm currently giving my players a character progression of +1 to all saves at even levels.
also i changed the 'improved save' feats to give them a single menu option among three:
1) you may key a different stat if higher (ST=Fort, INT=Ref, CHA=Will)
the greater version of these feats grants all three
Vigor pool should come online at 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th level (at latest), replacing nothing - just tack it on. this way, you could make it work with archetypes, and all material printed for the fighter thus far. then you don't have to remake the wheel - just add tires to it.
to me, as a DM, the 'point' is to make fighter an attractive option again amidst the 30 some odd pathfinder classes to choose from. do what you need to do.
I like your suggestion about inverting the point pool, but I had already chosen not to allow characters to store points because I was worried about someone saving up a dozen points and just doing the whole list. That kind of behavior should be discouraged, both for balance and for plausibility.
cap the pool. using an ability score (like Grit), 1/2 BAB, 1/2 ranks, or some other metric (expertise bonus, etc)
or cap spending (per round), similarly.
also, you could write the pre-rolling into the system using the immediate action. maybe.
a way to leave bonus feats as-is and still give the fighter some daily feat retraining!
Weapon Training (alternate):
Once per day after a full nights rest and 10 minutes of practice, a 1st level fighter may choose one weapon group (see below) and one combat feat he currently meets all prerequisites for. The fighter may use that feat while wielding a weapon from his selected group. This is a permanent change until the fighter chooses another weapon group and feat to train.
Upon reaching 5th level, the fighter may similarly train a second weapon group, and may choose up to two feats for his first weapon group. At 9th level, he may choose a third group, two feats for his second group, and three feats for his first group. And so on, until at 17th level the fighter may choose five groups each with one, two, three, four, or five associated feats. This is an extraordinary ability.
In lieu of making a feat selection, the fighter may simply choose to add +1 to hit and damage with weapons in his trained group. This bonus stacks with itself. He may also choose to leave one or more weapon group and/or feat slots 'open,' gaining no benefit until he takes 10 minutes to train the empty slot(s) at a later time.
Finally, there is a new weapon group described below:
Paired - the fighter chooses two different non-shield weapons and gains the associated benefits any time he is using both weapons at the same time, but not individually. Two weapon fighting penalties apply normally. (Example: Valeros chooses paired (longsword and shortsword) and picks up a longsword and shortsword. He gains a +1 bonus to attack and damage while fighting with these two weapons. If his opponent disarms his longsword, he gains no benefit from his weapon training ability until he picks it up again.)
>>copy/paste weapon groups here<<
01- Bonus Feats, Weapon Training I
(doesn't this just look right?)
damn these are cool. i like how you delve into the whole feat system before supplementing with your techniques. it's just good design.
can't wait until you create a google-doc so i can tell my players "and you can use any of these >click here<"...
what are the rules for techniques? do they 'activate' as an action or just the moment you pick up the specified weapon? can you use two at a time? you want to be explicit here.
ideas (take or leave):
Whirling Fans - bonus to combat-Performance checks
Saber - +2 subdual damage per feat when using saber 'punch' no -4 penalty
Hooked Axe - possess all feats, when you demoralize you also frighten for 1 round plus normal effect. (not a fan of take 10 for these feats)
Tiger Claw - provided you have sufficient AoO, you make two attacks per opportunity provided the first one hits
Ciaran Barnes wrote:
Charmer, Deft Palm, Fast Getaway, Fast Tumble, Honeyed Words, Peerless Maneuver, Swift Poison - fixed per your suggestions.
Deadly Range - how about +10 (=40), +10 every fifth? i think overall though the rogue's swift options have expanded in my improvements. i'm tempted to keep it.
Esoteric Scholar - why bard not rogue? tell me. uses a precious talent.
Evasion, Trafinding - this rogue is fully compatible with all archetypes (including ninja...)
Expert Leaper - good point. tied directly to the scaling skill DC now. went with +10 feet per +5 DC. so, slower than Slow Fall in theory.
Fast Getaway - took away Run. added swift +10 speed for 1 minute then fatigued 10 minutes. how can a talent called 'fast getaway' not be used for chase scenes? you think the drawback is fair? like the rogue smokes too much...
Nimble Climber, Strong Stroke - i want to keep these single talents. so now it's take 10 and move half your speed. very similar.
Snap Shot - made it an immediate action, clarified drawing, and protected against a triple sneak attack. different eh?
Stand Up - why swift over free? how about 1/round free as a compromise?
Weapon Training - it is a huge gain. but it keeps the rogue loyal. some rogues will pump ST and run around with a greatsword or a bunch of shuriken. that's cool with me. let's let 'em splash monk or fighter without straying from the class. Anybody can get weapon focus that's not special.
changes implemented here.
With nigh 30 base classes available in the pathfinder system, I have observed the slow waning in efficacy of the 3 core non-spellcasting classes, eclipsed by the flexibility and power of the new classes (as well as expansion of spell lists for all casting classes). The changes below are an attempt to keep the original feel of these core classes intact while provisioning additional design space to realize a wider range and stronger delivery of concept.
in a nutshell the 'problems' as i see it:
feel free to steal; i did!
don't do shaken. do sickened. stacks later to nauseated.
save shaken for a fear aura effect that is a function of #points.
consider making reave finite (use rage rounds per day?). when he steals someone's essence, he latches on in a battle of wills like a mental grapple. target is sickened while 'grappled' - this helps allies. while target is 'pinned' they suffer a bleed effect, reaver gains fast healing.
later effects increase the danger of being 'grappled' or 'pinned'
agreed on feat flexibility being priority one. maybe he can freely retrain his 4/8/12/16/20 bonus feats upon resting and replenishing his pool. or pay 1 point as a standard action to retrain one in a pinch?
alignment is one big waxball of philosophy. two poles, five colors, no different. the subjective component is huge.
that said, how about this: keep (or change?) your flavors. then assign them to two (or more?) positions.
this way Green-Black is different than Black-Green, etc.
just an idea. someone will likely interject with a monologue about personal freedoms. comes with the territory. cheers!
kind of neat.
later, as a swift action, in addition to the options above, at worst i get to take a second 5-step, maybe i get to do a fast or tricky charge, but hopefully i get a free dirty trick.
though i like the idea, i share your concern about it being a skill-feat tax, even given your skill boost to fighters and athletic consolidations, because, one can never have enough skills and feats, especially the fighter.
also, i am concerned that adding a new tactics roll every round can slow down play.
to the first concern:
to the second concern:
dunno if that helps.
i see it as an error in core. to me, if it ain't prepared, it ain't INT. btw i value flexibility in rogue choosing her 'special stuff' stat among all the mental ability scores.
taking feedbacks into consideration, how about:
Magic Rogue Talents (version 2):
Minor Magic (Sp)
The rogue chooses one spell from the list of any casting class (rogue's choice) of up to 1st level which she may cast as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 0). If she chooses a cantrip (or orison), she may cast it at will instead. The rogue must have a minimum Charisma of 10 to take this talent.
Major Magic (Sp)
the originals, as written, create for me three junctures of disappointment.
1) "man i gotta waste two talents just to get one 1st level spell!"
so, as i've proposed greater access, i had to take something back. hence the trade-offs 'from the same pool' and 'half caster level'.
i think CHA is way more appropriate than INT for a spell-like ability, casting more like a sorcerer than a wizard. the fact that the DCs build off the stat mentioned is implied. maybe i assume too much? i could see an Alchemy/Extracts version as INT though...
on feat prerequisites and retraining:
i like the two ideas together. prerequisites are a restriction, retraining is a relaxation - using them together enables structured wriggle-room. a fighter's 'build' would be dictated by his ability scores - and by 'build' i mean 'access' to any feat in any book that has ability score prerequisites. if it's used in the "1/day after a full night's rest and 1 hour preparation" fashion it closely resembles the Cleric's ability to prepare spells.
also, at every 4th level the fighter can already permanently retrain a feat. the decision between whether a feat ought to be permanent or retrainable is a matter of frequency of usage. some feats might be useful every fight - these are your permanents. others have a highly situational use - these are your retrainables.
what we are working against here is the user-friendliness of the fighter. they are supposed to be the easiest class to play. i think a fair trade-off between applicability and flexibility is to introduce daily retraining later in the fighter's career. that way, they are pretty straight-forward to play right out of the gates for a few levels, allowing the player to get a feel for the character, then we introduce options and complexity later.
my 2 cp.
i propose rogue because it'd otherwise be the only spell-less technique-less class under your system
what if instead 5-foot-steppin' was a move action? then, the archer at best could get a single shot, and the wizard would have to choose between safety and metamagic/full-round spells?
also, as the general parry+riposte/redirect mechanic may be a recurring theme for your styles/techniques (this is a popular theme indeed), i would consider looking at all of them first, and use the knowledge of what's out there to inform your creation process. for example, if you add a new parry+riposte/redirect, in addition to basing it on a new skill (a cosmetic change), i would allow the mechanic to trigger under differentiated circumstances - for example, the positioning of the martial artist relative to the opponent(s)/terrain/ally(s) involved.
flag: beware your combats being mostly people acting on other people's turns. ha ha.
finally, i would make a hard choice between style and technique. either keep both the name and basic mechanics of 'style,' or, forge ahead with a new name and new mechanics. if you do the latter, consider making a master of many techniques rogue and/or fighter archetype!
so, if i'm a level 2 fighter with two techniques, do i get 2 feats or 4? ie is it 1/level or 1/level/technique?
regarding the 5-foot step: is 'because it makes casting safer" the only reason you 'removed' them?
also, if you don't want to create an entire new list of techniques, you could just let the aforementioned rogue talents each 'dip' a single technique from any list.
in my game, most of my changes facilitate easier optimization. i see it like this: YOIO = you optimize, I optimize! bear in mind that my players only get one character, where I get as many as the story needs. if one of my players shows up with min/maxed stats and traits/archetypes/feats/spells/etc from a bunch of different books, i see it as a challenge. that said, if that player (or any player) turns out to be a ball-hog, he gets the boot. fun is #1 - and it's my job to maximize whole-group fun by any means necessary.
one tip: be a part of the character creation process if possible, maybe suggest powerful combinations based off their concept if they are open to that. then you get an advance look at what's comin' at you and can turn around and use that knowledge to challenge them in return.
but enough meta-chat. in particular i'm looking forward to trying out this new house rule:
Casting Defensively DC 10 + highest BAB of among threatening foes + 2 per additional foe + twice spell level
Healing is trained-only, except for First Aid
are you using Injury/Strain rules?
(ninja steal Cyriad's idea)
combining Treat Wounds or Treat Deadly Wounds with magical healing (spell, potion, wand) allows the Healer to substitute their ranks for caster level, and taking 20 on this check lets them maximize the dice
what do you think?
my goal here is not really to model the realism of aiming (despite the title) except inasfar as it facilitates a 'free' but also 'investable' mechanic that helps a ranged rogue get more use out of sneak attack
if you ever got a look at me you would immediately realize that i do not look smart. that is, if you don't turn to stone first!
i am parked somewhere in between a quick-n-dirty fix and something of the magnitude preluded to here.
my only argument against using the Resolve mechanic is that what happens then if your players choose both a Resolved Fighter and a Samurai. it's better for compatibility if the fighter's new abilities are all original and still interact well with the other classes.
a similar argument could be made for Solo Tactics, for example. or Martial Maneuvers. or Combat Style. from a certain point of view these all 'belong' on the core fighter, not the inquisitor/brawler/ranger what-have-you.
that said, i definitely think Endurance at 3rd for the fighter is spot on...
i want to leave CMB out (even BAB+WIS)
also want to avoid touch attacks
RedDogMT, why a move action and not a standard? seems kind of unfair. do you cap it at 30 feet and have it provoke?
thinking about throwing concentration in there - probably too complicated to port over from spellcasting though...
the main reason is to facilitate sneak attack and utilize the "dodge this" meme to take away from the dominance of the Dexterity ability score in general.
Aelryinth is searching for a more comprehensive fix.
at first glance yes.
the ability is limited to once per foe per day per exploitation (got that?) - the strategic decision is between choosing to 'blow' the ability to augment an already confirmed sneak attack or to create a new sneak attack, and so is a choice between 'wasting' the attempt on burst damage (statistically an additional +2.5 damage per SA die immediately) and utilizing the extra SA to exercise additional battlefield control (via strike talents) and/or squeeze even more damage out of the ability overall (statistically +1 damage per SA dice by comparison) by holding off one or more rounds. essentially, if you don't actually drop the foe choosing the maximize option, it is strategically inferior to creating a second sneak attack opportunity. i consider this tactical crossroad an intentional feature. what more, for those who omit doing the math, both options are pretty darn good.
both have their uses. and besides, to even be at that decision crossroad, the stars have to align. (ie meeting both standard SA and exploitation SA qualifications simultaneously).
modeled after Feint - a short range counterpart
Aiming is a standard action. To Aim, make a Perception skill check against a target within your point blank range (usually 30 feet). The DC of this check is equal to your opponent's CMD. If your opponent is trained in Acrobatics, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent's Acrobatics bonus, if higher. If successful, the next ranged attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn. If you move before you make this next attack, you lose these benefits.
When aiming for a creature of a different size category than you, you take a +4 bonus to your Perception check for each size category he is larger than you, or a -4 for each size category he is smaller than you. If your target has cover, you take his cover bonus as a penalty to your Perception check. You cannot aim for a creature that benefits from concealment. Aiming in combat provokes an attack of opportunity.
New Aim Feats
Improved Aim (combat feat)
You are skilled at hitting your opponent in point blank range
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point Blank Shot
Benefit: You can make a Perception check to aim in combat as a move action.
Normal: Aiming in combat is a standard action.
Greater Aim (combat feat)
this should go in the "Little love for Rogues" thread...
unless anyone has strong reservations, i'm going to loose this on my players.
i have seen several renditions of these talents. here are mine.
Magic Rogue Talents (revised):
Minor Magic (Sp)
The rogue chooses one 1st-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard list which she may cast as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 0) using half her rogue level as her caster level.
Major Magic (Sp)
wanted to keep it at two.
thought of something.
Repeat Offender (new feat):
Prerequisites: Exploitation, Sneak Attack +3d6
Benefit: Choose one of your exploitations. You develop a special knack for that exploitation, and may use it once per round against the same foe, instead of once per day.
Special: This feat may be selected multiple times, each time applying to a different exploitation.
plus i trimmed more words, as the whole action/creature type thing seemed too forced.
Exploitation (version 5.5):
Rogues brutally exploit vulnerability. A 5th level rogue chooses one Exploitation (below), and another every four rogue levels thereafter (at 9th, 13, and 17th). The rogue has only to hit a creature that is suffering from a listed condition or status effect to exploit him. As a swift action, the rogue applies her sneak attack dice to the damage roll - if the attack is already a sneak attack, she maximizes the dice instead. Each exploitation is usable against the same victim only once per 24 hours.
Charmed Exploitation (charm or compulsion effect)
still lookin' fer other ideas.
awkward targeting mechanics removed
Exploitation (version 5):
Rogues brutally exploit vulnerability. A 5th level rogue chooses one Exploitation (below), and another every four rogue levels thereafter (at 9th, 13, and 17th). Each one details the vulnerability the rogue is exploiting, and each is usable against a vulnerable foe once per 24 hours. Exploiting her foe is as simple as succeeding on an attack roll. As a swift action, the rogue simply applies her sneak attack dice to a damage roll - if the attack is already a sneak attack, she maximizes the dice instead. Most exploitations are usable against a foe who is suffering from a condition or status effect. Others are usable against a creature type that is ordinarily immune to precision damage, or against a foe performing a specific action in combat. The latter case requires the rogue to ready an attack action against her victim to catch him in the act. These are extraordinary abilities.
Charmed Exploitation (charm or compulsion effect)
other ideas? comments
i love your design philosophy, and it's results.
especially tying each to a skill, then giving +X to that skill, X=number of feats in chain. nice touch.
i agree that you should call these 'techniques' and not 'style' - monks already have 'style' as Seranov said.
i feel Sabre Technique needs another prereq (Combat Reflexes?) and a 5th feat (BAB 9) - it feels incomplete as is. maybe an ability that builds off the parry? like, if you succeed at a parry, you may burn another AoO to make an Acro check redirect the attack to another foe who is currently flanking you too (or would be if you have IUD), resolving that attack against flat AC - call it Friendly Fire or something.
keep it up. and you should consider a google doc, so i can direct my players there too.
and yes i think i will make Armor Mastery simply be 'armor training V' (so, DR 4/-, 5/-, and 6/- respectively), and add a clause that using a buckler/shield/tower increases this by +1/2/3 respectively, and possibly a second clause that if used in conjunction with Combat Expertise, a fighter may add his expertise bonus to his DR in lieu of a dodge bonus.
what do you think of the two clauses?
as for Armor Master archetype, as he replaces Weapon Training and Armor Mastery, we can just let the DR stack, starting him with DR 1/3/5 at 5th level (as opposed to 0/1/2), growing to DR 4/6/8 by 15th level (as opposed to 3/4/5), and culminating in DR 4/8/12 per the archetype at 19th, plus we'll let him add DR +1/2/3 for buckler/shield/tower as a bonus at 19th too. eh?
i shy away from a raw dodge/enhancement/armor bonus increase because i am okay with the fact that the ability gives out some things for free (DR, ACP reduction) and others as a return on investment (Max Dex). to me, the added DR tips the ability in the right direction, and pouring on free bonuses crosses my threshold. besides, the Elusive feature of the Free Hand Fighter does this.
Armor Training (version 2):
Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0), increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by 1, and boasts 1 point of typeless damage reduction (DR 1/-). Every four levels thereafter, these bonuses increase by one step, until 19th level the fighter enjoys a 5-point reduction in ACP, a +5 increase to Max Dex, and DR 5/-. In all cases, damage reduction provided by this ability is lowered by 1 (minimum of 0) for light armor, and raised by 1 (maximum 6) for heavy armor. Damage reduction from special armor materials (such as adamantine) stacks with that granted by this ability.
Finally, a 3rd level fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor, and at 7th level can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.
Armor Mastery (Ex):
ever wonder why the barbarian gets damage reduction, naked, where the fighter, fully armored, doesn't?
this patch fixes that, as moderately as possible, as linearly as possible, while still retaining a qualitative difference between light/medium/heavy armors, so a fighter doesn't have to keep a high DX to benefit from this feature.
Armor Training (modified):
Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0), increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1, and boasts 1 point of typeless damage reduction (DR 1/-). The damage reduction is decreased by 1 for light armor (minimum 0), and increased by 1 for heavy armor. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –4 reduction of the armor check penalty, +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus, and DR 5/-.
In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.