psionichamster's page

@GBonehead...

or, in the case of a very very pretty little halfling sorcerer, a couple of nifty magic items and over 10,000 gp in cookies.

:)

Interesting ideas here.

How about the real cheap & easy way:

A really big hole.

Party gets into fight with BBEG.

BBEG throws "the switch" which drops floor out from under party.

Minor falling damage, perhaps some environmental effects (glass floor floating on pool of magma, anyone?), but the big trick is to simply provide distance between Target and Death-Machine.

Then, swarm them with low CR foes. Like Fire Giants or Intellect Devourers

The Whirling-Death-Machine has a choice: accept fly spells (or similar) from the party to get out, or stay in his fiery arena and bash on monsters till they stop leaking goo.

I think you know the answer to that choice, already.

Death-Machine PC gets to have fun slaying tons of baddies, while party needs to figure out how to get out and stop/capture/slay the BBEG before his nefarious plans come to fruition.

at the risk of inciting more rage on the internet:

I don't mind if the party TPK's.

Really.

In some 15 years of gaming, it's happened one (1) time: The last room of Thistletop, in PF 1 "Burnt Offerings."

We pressed on when we should have rested, and that last encounter dropped my fighter, then the paladin, and the rest of the party followed suit.

That turned out to be a GOOD thing, though.

We created new characters (ranging from a "twin brother" of the bard, to myself taking on my character's paramour Ameiko Kaijutsu), and set about making darn sure that didn't happen again.

Funnily enough, the replacement characters have been some of the most fun, interesting, and weird PCs I have seen. They are also all quite aware of their own mortality and proper dungeoneering technique.

If this were to happen, say, at 12th level or so, that may be a different story. But really, at that point, a TPK should not be likely, seeing as how so many characters have extraordinary means of escape.

A fear of death instills a desire and drive to survive, I've found. The opposite is true, as well. When players think their characters are invulnerable, they tend to do stupid things (like "I jump into the well of evil," or "I jump down onto the huge ooze and hit it with my axe." Both true stories. Both resulted in the loss of that PC.)

YMMV, of course.

@Turin: not too worried about just confiscation of the books. They know the results for that would be un-good.

Plus, Ganon is actually very lawful & pro-Kamelot.

I shudder to think that, as party treasurer, a crafting caster with a crafter caster "cohort," he may be able to actually afford said book o' doom.

Meh, maybe I'll get lucky on Sunday...

New major items available , used a very nice item roller. http://www.dunknet.net/pathfinder.aspx

+3 huge sized heavy steel shield
rod of cancellation
+3 large sized light mace
ring of wizardry I
+5 medium sized longspear
manual of quickness in action +2
amulet of mighty fists +4
tome of leadership and influence +4

Let's just quietly sell those books for BP, eh?

No reason Thom needs to know about them, after all...

Guys, I WILL PULL THIS FORUM OVER, RIGHT NOW!!!

Seriously, though -- you've got a choice: I can answer questions on this forum, or I can get this sucker through layout and get it out there. I don't really have time to do both.

It's all good, GMS.

We're just excited is all.

C'Mon guys, knock it off...I wanna go to Disneyl....er.....that place we're going.

Kruelaid wrote:

Kruelaid wrote:

Kruelaid wrote:

Kruelaid wrote:

Is it done yet?

Is it done yet?

Is it done yet?

Is it done yet?

Is it done yet?

How bout now?

I know this will not solve anything, but here goes anyways:

Average McThiefyGuy

Now, imagine you sit down to a game with 3 other players, and one of them says "Here's my character, I'm playing a rogue."

"Oh great, a drain on the party who can't do anything, just what we need."

But wait, let's examine that statement a bit, in relation to things that may actually happen in a game, why don't we?

Average Party Level is 1, so normal encounters will be at CR 1. Maybe some CR 2's or 3's get added in, and a big boss fight may be CR 4. Just what is our useless rogue doing in said fights, eh?

Against Monsters (or groups)

2 Tieflings AC 16, 10 HP, Melee +3, Ranged +3. Ok, looks like it's gonna be tough to hit these guys without some assistance. The Fighter is swinging at +5-6, +7-9 if flanking, so he's not even assured of a hit. A 30-40% hit rate at level 1 is not impossible to overcome, and that increases if you can charge, or if the party throws out any buff spells (Bless, Inspire Courage, etc.)At least they can't hit you too easily, either.

CR 1 Ghoul AC 14, HP 13, Melee Bite +3, 2 Claws +3 A bit easier to hit, now. With flanking that's a dead-even die roll. As an Elf, hey look, they can't paralyze you, and most likely can't hit either. Take those claws on the chin (better yet, dodge em), while your party helps drop the undead menace.

CR 1 Amoeba Swarm AC 13, HP 9, Swarm damage and immunities, Cannot stab it. Ouch, low level swarms. Ok, this is dangerous, but not too bad. You're likely to see it, assuming your eyes are open, and can sit back and light it on fire. Sure, the wizard could do that with a burning hands, but why waste the spell when a 20gp alchemist's fire will do just as well? Not to mention, the McThiefyGuy could just walk around it, since it's Perception of -5 will not yield very good results outside the blindsight range.

CR 2 Choker AC 17, HP 16, Melee +6 plus Grab, Constrict, and Strangle. If McThiefyGuy gets hit, Mr. Choker has a 55% chance to squeeze the ever loving life out of him. If he sees him, that is. Perception of +1 vs. Stealth of +8 yields decent odds. Granted, our hero is very unlikely to spot the critter (+7 Perception vs. +13 Stealth, natch), but nobody's perfect, eh? BTW, if Mr. Wizard gets grabbed, that 55% chance jumps significantly. If he's Small and/or packing a 7 Str, that's even worse.

I could go on, but those are enough for your beginning Monster encounters. Against weapon resistant foes, the smart Rogue utilized energy damage (via flask, wand, or environment, whichever is appropriate). Against Sneak Attack immune critters, fight defensively, retreat, or otherwise confound them while your party mates take 'em out. Anyone else (especially Low-AC, High-HP critters, like most Animals) gets cut and cut good.

Now, against other things, like Traps or similar Hazards.

CR 1: Acid Spraying Skulls Trap (Perception DC 25, Disable DC 25, 2xAcid Splash +5 touch) Ouch, a magical trap at CR 1? Ok, so you CAN find it (on a Nat-17), and potentially CAN disable it (with a Nat-16) but don't count on it. At least the touch attack only has a 50/50 chance to hit anyways...sorry Mr. Fighter

Arrow Trap (Perception DC 20, Disable DC 20, Arrow +15, 1d8+1)Now this is more like it. This is the kind of trap I'd expect to see in a Level 1 adventure. You spot it on a 12, which ain't too bad, and disable on an 11. Not too shabby for level 1.

The rest of the CR 1 traps are along the same vein (DC 20 / DC 20) with a few exceptions. If there're traps, no-one else is gonna find them, and certainly no-one else is going to be able to do anything about them. Sure, the Wizard could use one of his 2-3 1st level spells to trigger one of them, or the Cleric could do the same. That means they DON'T have that spell for the BBEG or horde of orcs or whatever else later.

This rogue can climb walls, sneak around very successfully, pop most locks you'll encounter, and even filch the sheriff's keys on a good roll. That sounds far from useless for a level 1 character to me.

"But level 1 is no fun!"

"Level 1 is too swingy!"

"You can't do anything cool at low levels!"

Sure, low level is where the Non-Casters traditionally get to do their thing, but it's also where good play habits are formed. If the party has no Rogue, they most likely will not even attempt stealth or subterfuge. They're much more likely to get used to "Summon/SoD/Full-Attack/SoD" combats, and not look for alternative solutions.

Why should they, when the "standard" solution works so well.

The party with the Rogue, however, takes it slow when there might be traps around. They actually may FIND some of them before they trip. A certain motivation for stealth and subtlety may grow. Combat may or may not be a desired outcome for most situations.

All this is not intended as a "proof" or anything so presumptuous. There really is no "wrong" way to play a game such as we're debating. While some may not think the Rogue is worthwhile, others (like myself) certainly do. Just because he doesn't get access to spells does not make him useless, it just means he can't play like a spellcaster.

For a really effective progression, McThiefyGuy will continue to advance the skills as listed, while taking the Scout Archetype and archery feats. As an Elf, the free longbow proficiency certainly does not hurt, and Dodge>Mobility>Shot on the Run is extremely viable when you get to add Sneak Attack every time you move more than 10 feet.

Add in Point Blank, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, and Deadly Aim (that should take you through to level 9 or 11, depending on your talent selections) and Finesse Rogue at some point (like Level 2), and you're keeping up with damage dealt.

It seems to me the general belief of those who suggest the Rogue is "Obsolete" is "If it's not a full-caster, it's useless."

I reject that assertion out of hand.

Cast:

Ganon Malfoy, Level 11 Human Infernal Sorcerer. Royal Diplomat and friend to all.

Hestia the Dwarf, Level 11 Human (reincarnated) Barbarian. Royal Headsman, Wielder of Ovrinbaane and Hammer-Dealt-Chaos.

Enrol the Transmuter, Level 11 Human Transmuter, Royal Magister, and soon-to-be Commander of the Corps Arcane

Artemis Gayle, Level 11 Human Druid, Mistress of the Mel'isae, and Warden of the Kingdom.

Brunner the Oracle, Level 11 Human (reincarnated) Oracle of Life, Mayor of Kamelot, and Councillor of the People

Her Majesty, Queen Rilani Astin Martin, Ruler of Kamelot, Cavalier of the Order of the Cockatrice, Human, Level 11.

Bit players:

Da King (Bard "cohort" of Rilani)
Da Treasurer (Wizard "cohort" of Ganon)
Horatio, da Spymaster (Rogue "cohort" of Brunner)
Melissa, High Priest?
General ---> ???
Marshal ---> ???

Once more into the Kamelands and Hooktongue Slough, and once more our "heroes" came out richer, better looking, and smelling nice.

We began our adventure in the swamps, near the Swamp Scar. After having driven off the Spirit Naga which recently resided within, Artemis scried upon the creature, showing Enrol and Ganon just where to teleport. Geared up and loaded for bear...er....snake, our intrepid rulers <bamf'd> into a muddy, swampy wooden hut, and the fight was on.

Ngara the Spirit Naga had fled (via dimension door, invisibility, and charm to her slave Sepoko's side. He had used his powers of healing to restore the damage Ganon dealt the snake, and the two hunkered in his throne room. A pair of boggard wardens stood guard against intruders from the tunnels, along with their amphibian complements.

Starting things off with a bang, Hestia slogged through the muck in an attempt to close with Chief Sepoko, taking a more defensive action than normal. Enrol followed that up with a cone of cold, catching both the boggard chief and Ngara in its path. The snake retaliated in kind, barely breaking the Resist Cold 30 each hero wore (courtesy of Ganon), and showing her position.

Sepoko tried to end Enrol with a slay living, but the wizard shrugged it off. He also managed to live despite a boggard warden's best efforts with trident and axe. Neither Sepoko nor Ngara received a chance to rectify their failures, as Ganon dimensional anchored the Naga while Artemis and Hestia filled Chief Sepoko with metal. Enrol capped off the fight with a timely flesh to stone, which Ngara helpfully failed Again, with the Nat-1's!.

All told, the battle was over in 12 seconds, with the Chief (and an unknown giant snake monster) dead at the hands of pinkskins, and the Wardens unsure what to do. Ganon solved that problem with his silver tongue, sounding off in fluent Boggard (he had learned it long ago, after meeting the crippled frog-man in the Narlmarches) as to his new position as Chief. Unwilling to fight such dangerous foes, and ready to accept the "rule of the strongest", the boggard tribe capitulated and surrendered their treasure. The wardens retained their weapons and armor, and the rest of the tribe kept their normal supplies, but their small stockpile of coins and items went off to Kamelot. They also had a handful of Giant Dragonfly Wings, enough to complete the Entomologist Crafter's quest.

After a tour of his new swamp home, Ganon learned about the sacrifices made to Gogunta at the Swamp Scar, and decided Kak-Kehkt was unfit to be such a sacrifice. He released the bog strider after a brief telepathic conversation (and being promised "shiny treasures" upon his safe retun to Nok-Tikrat) and the party set out to explore the M'Botuu's swamp/lake hex.

Along the northern bank, Artemis spotted a group of moose like animals, which she empathy'd, then carried back south in her bird form. After dropping the prey animals off at the M'Botuu's, she flew east and grabbed up Boko, Queen Rilani's mount. Meanwhile, the rest of the party rode south across the lake (via Enrol's phantom steed spells, or as I call them "Swamp Horseycles") with plenty of meat to share.

After some discussion about the Demon Frog Gogunta, and just what the Boggards expected from the sacrifice, Ganon felt confident these frog-people would accept his ruse. At the swamp scar, the party pushed on into the night, arriving just in time for the sacrificial offering. Hobbling the moose and pitching camp, they waited through the night for some giant monster or other horrible event. What happened was even stranger.

Four weird plants (Calathgar, according to Artemis) emerged from the swamp and tried to feed on the moose. Artemis managed to command plants two of the critters, while Enrol dusted one with a full-force disintegrate and the fourth died to shotgun blasts. Realizing the potential for cold-producing intelligent vine plants, Artemis added them to her little menagerie (which now included two bright yellow poisonous frogs, care of the M'Botuu camp.)

From there, and after Ganon 'ported back and forth to Kamelot, the party began exploring westward. Everyone now rode swamp-walking mounts, since Ganon's goal for his jaunt was the retrieval of Boko's new Horshoes of the Speedy Zephyr. Queen Rilani now rides astride a Speed 80 Water-Walking Terror Bird (chocobo), and is the slowest of the group. Encountering more swamp before grassland, not much proved of interest until the Ettin war party.

Easily spotted by the telepathically bonded Artemis flying overwatch, our heroes buffed a bit and moved to intercept two Ettins and their Orc retainers. In the brief fight to follow, Hestia proved her bravery (stupidity?) again, charging one Ettin and engaging the whole band on her own. She took it like a a champ, too, receiving some 60-70 damage courtesy of raging Orcs' falchions and Large flails. In return, she dealt well over 150 to one Ettin.

Enrol and Ganon handled the small fries, courtesy of Empowered Fireballs, some of which were even selective. Unfortunately, Ganon's resist energy suite only lasts for dungeon-time, not enough for full-day coverage. Alas, that, I was sad. :) Needless to say, the party handled itself extremely well, neutralizing this dangerous war party with very little trouble.

From there, they continued exploring, circling Fort Drelev (soon to be called Westville) clockwise, starting from the 7'o'clock position. Prime grassland extended as far as the eye could see, but no settlements, thorpes, or farms. Hmm, I wonder why that could be... Our heroes did finally manage to locate Speartooth's lair, and its collection of Fort Drelev uniforms and equipment. Reclaiming their "purloined" property, the party pressed on. They turned up some additional Calathgar, which Artemis promplty controlled. At this point, Enrol and Artemis's players began in-depth discussions, talking about crafting costs, time, and similar stuff. I paid little attention at the moment, but would applaud their ingenuity later.

Our heroes got as far as Windchaser's hex before needing to return to civilization and handle business. The first task for the Duchy became the expansion towards Fort Drelev. Starting at Tatzlford, they struck northwest, laying out the "Unicorn Road" to the edge of the swamp. After the second month of construction, the road faltered in the swamp a bit, but Fort Drelev became the latest city of Kamelot. They renamed it Westville, the 5th city zone of the now Kingdom. Queen Rilani got herself with child once again (Prince Henry is expected in Abadius of next year), while much crafting and plotting ensued.

Ganon, acting as the Royal Diplomat he is, <bamf'd> over to the swamp, and made friends with the Bog Striders of Nok-Tikrat. The bug-people apparently were much inspired by Klingons, at leasty etymologically. The prince's promises of "Shinies" proved to be a bit of an overestimation, but a peaceful accord was nonetheless struck. The Bog Striders would provide guidance and information about the swamp, and in return Kamelot would ensure the peace of the land. They exchanged gifts to commemorate the occasion; Ganon provided the Chief with a potion of comprehend languages, and in return the Chief told him of the surrounding hexes. Horribly monsters ruled the swamps to north and south, while the southeast was taboo and haunted and northwest held some of the rare Azure Poison Swamp Lily.

From Nok-Tikrat, Ganon brought his companions west, appearing in the hex with Windchaser and his herd. Again, Artemis spotted the herd long before anyone else. Flying around as a Huge bird of prey tends to spook herd prey animals, and these horses proved no exception. Using her shadow and screams to drive them towards the party, she then dove to rejoin her teammates. Taking the form of a powerful mare, Artemis approached the herd, not knowing of its unusual origins.

Windchaser approached the horse-form-druid, warily examining this strange, singular horse. She rode at the head of a small herd, including an armor-plated two-legged bird and his fully-armored human rider, 4 ghostly, floating, horse-like creatures upon which rode more humans (and a dwarf). That elicited much suspicion from the Awakened stallion, but her approach in mare form and general powerful form tempered his distrust.

Rearing and pawing drew no reaction from Artemis, who was then invited to run with the herd. Doing so, and easily outpacing any of the horses, she proved Windchaser's suspicions. Guessing her nature, he spoke to Artemis, calling her druidess and horse-friend. She ran with the stallion for a while, listening to him tell the story of his awakening and his former druid master. He even told her about the humans of Fort Drelev, warning Artemis to stay away from the dangerous human city. The horse also informed her of the terrible Speartooth Cat to the northeast, and some humans in distress to the south.

Thanking Windchaser for his time and information, Ganon asked if they needed anything. Asking for nothing but freedom, Windchaser promised not to bother the humans of the land so long as they were left alone. Artemis took this time to shift back to human form, and greeted each and every horse in the herd, allowing them to know her scent.

Intent on saving these poor refugees, the party next set out southeast. They quickly found the wretches, in the process of arguing whether to head north or return from whence they came. The peasants all fell to their knees and begged for deliverance once they realized the Queen of Kamelot herself rode to their rescue. Ganon and Enrol 'ported all 18 of them back to Westville, courtesy of a orange prism stone and several scrolls of teleport. The peasants all told of a dangerous multiheaded monster in the swamp to the east. That beast, a hydra, had eaten their leaders, including their survivalist and healer.

With the people secure, the party decided to head east and slay the hydra. The critter got one good round of attacks in, nibbling on Rilani, Boko, and Hestia a very little bit. It then received lightning bolts, shotgun blasts, and lance strikes, falling to Hestia's massively damaging hammer swings. After securing the swamp area, the party 'ported back home, intent on some R&R and crafting time.

Enrol and Artemis launched their cunning plans, using the cold-producing Calathgar vines to make the ice necessary for an Ice Golem, upon which the Small plants will reside. Artemis calls him the Gardener, and he remains at Haven, watching over the "Winterflower Gardens" therein. They also took a brief jaunt to the Elemental Plane of Earth, armed with a Rod of Mineral Detection. Once there, the pair lucked out. Rather than encountering Xorn, Elder Earth Elementals, or some other dangerous denizen of the deep, Shaitan genies greeted them.

A mining camp of Shaitan just happened to be close by their Plane Shift landing point. Speaking Terran, bearing lots of gold and magic, and guided by a Druid in Elemental Form, Enrol struck a bargain with the Shaitan. In search of Adamantine, the Transmuter wished to trade whatever it took. Luckily for him, this group had just found some of the rare material, and would trade mass-for-mass another precious metal. Silver, Gold, Platinum, Uranium, Plutonium, Mithral, and Aluminum were all mentioned. Pulling out his "carpet of coins," Enrol wow'd them a little. They left the Plane shortly thereafter, in possession of 70 lbs of Adamantine. Combined with the Adamantine Full Plate they managed to buy in town, the Transmuter now had enough material to begin construction of his masterpiece, the Adamantine Golem.

Working in concert with the King and Royal Treasurer (Bard and Wizard, respectively) and using all the tricks at his disposal, the construction will still take 8.6 months, and require at least a Natural 15 on the die to succeed. I'll take those odds.

Meanwhile, Rilani managed to turn up a very high level (CL 18) scroll of Make Whole. She commissioned Brunner to repair The Sword of Varn, as well as further enchant it, her lance, shield and armor. Now packing +4 Lance, Sword, and +4 Shield and Armor, the Queen is a mighty warrior indeed. Everyone else spent gold in whatever fashion pleased them, including Brunner going "under the knife" for some reincarnate therapy.

Unwilling to use her profane "Human Reincarnate" ritual, Artemis rolled the dice after slitting her healer's throat. Lucky for him, he came back as a Kellid Human. Perhaps unluckily, he also came back as a female. Having a Female Oracle, Female Barbarian, Female Druid, Female Cavalier, along with a Male Transmuter and Male Sorcerer in the party makes this feel very "Charlie's Angels" Perhaps "Ganon's Devils" would be a better description, however.

Looking over their maps, the group realized a prime piece of farmland remained out of their grasp. Southwest of the Restov Road running betwen Oleg's and Niktai's Crossing, the most northeastern hex stood unclaimed as "no man's land." Intent on acquiring that farmland, Ganon, Rilani, Hestia, and Brunner set off for Restov, with Princess (and Heir) Elizabeth in tow. While there, the Queen and Diplomat divided and conquered the courtiers of Restov. The poor saps didn't know what hit them.

Making back-alley and under-the-table agreements, Ganon managed to secure support for his position, as well as a sit-down with the Mayor and Diplomat of Restov within three days of being in town. Rilani, meanwhile, charmed everyone at court with her wit, prowess, and adorable two-year-old Princess. She announced her new pregnancy, as well as reaffirming her position as Queen of Kamelot, the newest River Kingdom.

At the meet-and-greet, Mayor, Queen, and the pair of Diplomats hashed out a deal between their cities. Relying on the adage that "what they don't know..." the Mayor offered the hex in question in exchange for twice its value, payable either in Build Points directly to Restov or gold to himself. Electing for the former, Ganon arranged delivery of some dozen midwives (all trained at Artemis's "Mel'Issae Academy"), as well as craftsmen, wood, fish, gold, silver, and iron. He did not deliver any advanced weaponry (firearms, explosives, or magic), nor any major spellcasters (a few adepts only.)

Once all the politics were settled and everyone had returned from their various excursions, plans were laid to fully explore the rest of their kingdom (several hexes southwest of the Tors of Levines, most of the Slough, and points north). Gathering in Haven, Artemis piled everyone into her Roc's gondola, and set out for the grasslands surrounding Wyvernstone Bridge. Along the way, Artemis spotted something very strange. Among a copse of tall oaks, four trees stood out as odd. An ancient Willow, Mahogany, Coconut Palm, and Cypress seemed to grow alongside the oaks.

Landing the gondola, Artemis believed the creatures to be Treants, ancient spirits of nature and guardians of the forest.

What will our heroes do next?

Will they slay the animated forces of nature, with steel and flame?

Will they befriend the tree-people?

Only time will tell.

Until next Sunday!

Aye, Undead "Squad Leaders" would work.

Skeletal Champions (as might be found in a certain Tomb), Zombie Masters, and other controller type critters could well be worth the investment.

Then, the army structure might look a lot like a Warhammer Vampire Lords army:

General is in charge
Commanders control the Squad Leaders
Squad Leaders lead the actual fighting units.
Fighting units = Skeletons/Zombies

Not sure if it'd be worth the time, money, and eventual crusades against you, but its doable.

wraithstrike wrote:

Proof?

Bards gain all the class skills of Rogues, bar Swim and Disable Device. At level 16 they consider these, and every other skill in the game as class skill as well. For the loss of these skills at level 1 they gain all knowledge skills, only needing to invest 1 rank in each to be an expert on them thanks to the increadibly useful Bardic Knowledge and Loremaster. Using Versatile performance they gain skills at a 3 for 1 basis, more than making up for their 2 less skills per level, and on top of this treat those free skills as charisma based.

Finally, at level 10 bards receive Jack of All Trades, which means they can 'fluke' any skill they have not to invested in and can take 10 (At Level 19)in situations that threaten failure, thus making them the most reliable skill user (7-9 levels after the Rogue already has that ability).

They are also a charisma based caster with all the charm spells, and all the social skills, making them a superb 'face' for the party. (Spells != Skills)

wraithstrike wrote:

What makes a class a substandard melee class?

I consider a 'standard' melee class one that can be relied upon to solely destroy a CR creature one equal its level in single melee combat if built well. Fighters/ Rangers/ Barbarians/Paladins/Cavaliers can do this. Some non full-BAB classes can do this such as Druids/Clerics/Oracles/Monks/Inquisitors. Fighters etc are valuable because someone has to tangle with the enemies. Those that can't have other tricks.

Not every class has to be a capable melee, but they must bring other things to the table.
If you do not need a rogue for skills,(which is your contention, and far from vigorously defended) and rogues do not contribute equally to the party on the frontline (also far from defended), what reason is there for a rogue to be in the party?

I am not saying a rogue player cannot contribute, I am saying that by choosing the rogue class they will not be able to contribute as much as another class. I merely want rogues to be stronger.

In summation, Rogues get abilities earlier than bards, while being less M.A.D., and can approach a fighter in DPR if designed and played intelligently. No, they don't get spells or channel energy or bardic performance or rage.

Instead, they get All Sorts of Neat Things.

From actual, in-game play experience, the greatest moment in the Rogue Player's career is when she realizes that no lock can withstand her talents, almost noone can escape her notice, and getting out of grapples and melee can be as easy as "Taking 10." That facilitates a level of comfort and confidence in her abilities which then translates into smoother, faster, more enjoyable game time.

And that's the POINT of this exercise, no?

May I recommend Witches Against the Age of Worms

The premise was: could a party of all witches succeed at this AP?

So far, so good.

We are just heading out from Diamond Lake to the mines, though, so much remains to be seen.

Cole Cummings wrote:

And Again Everyone: thanks for the input.

This is my 1st Pathfinder Rogue and I need all the help I can get. My group is pretty rules savvy and I have always been an off the cuff arbitrary gamer, more interested in the story then the rules.

So All these bits of information are really really helpful!

I hope your DM gives you opportunities to shine and your campaign isn't standard by the book modules with lots of combat. You're torturing yourself playing a rogue if you manage to get past about lvl 13 in a standard campaign. Very impotent class at high level, should be ok for you if you stick to 5 to 13 or so though. Not great, but can be useful.

Very interesting.

Having played through Second Darkness as a straight Rogue, I am interested to here how impotent and useless my character was.

One-shotting Drow sentries, dealing significant bow damage consistently, stealthing and talking to everyone, avoiding LOTS of the really dangerous magical traps later on in that AP were all his stock in trade.

So, I'm really not seeing how/why this is such an issue.

Bruunwald wrote:

I am resisting the urge to tell the OP exactly what bad word he reminds me of right now.

I will leave it at WRONG, WRONG, f-word WRONG.

First of all, I know a guy named Aragorn and he loves his name.

Secondly, my son bears the name of a character I happened to be writing about when my wife was pregnant. She loved the name, and "stole" it from me. My son happens to be the only person in the world with that name (at least as far as recent internet searches can tell).

My best friend Jim told me the day my son was born that the name was a good idea - that it would always be a conversation starter, and he was right. People ask about it all the time, call it an "interesting," "cool," "unusual," and even "pretty name" and my son has never been treated poorly for it. They always want to know where it came from, and when they find out, they often want to know more about our family. Sometimes it's misspelled, but I think that goes without saying. People haven't seen it before.

There are no rules about this, and I thank Whatever Power Made Me I don't live in some backwards place where they can force you to name your kid John.

Then worst thing a parent can do is give their kids a stupid name. Some names a cool, but some names the parents think are cool but aren't. But the poor little devil has to live with it until, at least, they can get it changed if they haven't come to terms with it. So I'm with Hama on this one. I think society is a bit freer on this but you still have to be careful. Give kids a half-decent reason to tease and they will take it with both hands, and that is no fun for the recipient. It's also partly cultural: call your kid "Randy" in Britain and you might as well not have bothered.

If the worst thing a parent can do is name their child a "silly" name, you should count yourself lucky. Ignorance truly is bliss.

My friend's wife recently gave birth to their first son, and he wanted to name him Aragorn. No kidding. Thankfully, the people who register children names operate under a certain law, one that does not allow for stupid or strange names to be given to children (most of the time, some are still completely retarded, like naming your child after a farming implement). So, they refuse him, and he goes into frenzy mode, going around suing them and writing a complaint to everybody he thinks could do something about it.

Thankfully, he got shot down by his wife, so they named him a normal name after all.

I think that parents shouldn't give their kids some weird/strange names just so that their little baby will be unique. Have they any idea how abused and/or molested and/or made fun of will that child be if it has a name like Gandalf (unless they are from iceland)? Most other kids will not understand why he has a name like that, and when kids don't understand something they abuse it and make fun of it.

My friend was angry at his wife by the way, so i had to sit him down and talk to him...it took me three hours to make him see reason.

So if you are a future parent, please, please name your child a normal, regular name, it will thank you in the future.

So, some government agent is now authorized to tell parents they CANNOT name their child something?

Hmm...where is this again?

Ddddddoooooootttttttt.

Also, thanks to Howie for the collation.

Easiest solution:

Fast forward though the "City In Chaos" events.

When you get to the "Nobleman in Danger" part, simply have all PC's roll initiative.

Inquisitor-Team enters from stage right, rest of the group from stage left.

An obvious, good-vs-evil conflict ensues (prevent the mob from wailing on a youth), and everyone gets to prove just how big and bad they are.

Just be sure to paint the mob as the common enemy, and <boom> instant party cohesion.

"Armag Smash!"
<whiff>
"Armag....miss?"

That's how the night progressed, mostly, sadly, for our intrepid murderers from Kamelot.

Starting off their adventuring day with a dead Oracle and friendly, charmed Lilend, they promptly fixed the first problem via reincarnate, courtesy of Artemis.

Brunner the Oracle once again breathed, this time as a Dwarf.

"Artemis, you sure you know how to do this without all those rituals," asked Ganon?
"Relax, I got this," she replied confidently.
"Hummina-hummina-hummina-.......DORF!"
one hour later <bamf, one no-longer-dead Dwarven Oracle>
"Yeah, you may wanna work on that final command word," quipped Ganon.

Ganon then took the 5 "princesses" back to Fort Drelev via teleport and 2 bags of holding. Back in town, he grabbed some components for another reincarnate and slept safely in a bed. Meanwhile, the rest of the party stayed at the Tiger Lords' camp right outside the Tomb. In the morning, Ganon bamf'd right back, just in time for a Lilend prepared breakfast.

Restocked, ready for mayhem, and raring for a fight, the party once more ventured into Armag's tomb. Planning ahead, Ganon slapped Resist Energy, Mass on everyone. For every energy. Imagine his surprise when Enrol (via permanent arcane sight informed the party guards and wards protected the entire chamber. Many frowns and looks of consternation appeared thereafter.

Sucking it up, the party decided to press on and simply dispel and knock the various locked portals and foggy corridors. For some reason, they also elected to not search anything while they traveled, thus bypassing several secret doors which Artemis (with her +30 to perception) could not fail to spot.

Heading east from the "Black Sisters' Room" (and very happy those two stayed quite dead, they continued on the eastern path. For some, unknown reason they also stood in both the first and second room of the dungeon and argued for 10-20 minutes just what they were going to do. Fog, webs, locked doors, and confusing intersections seemed to stymie their usual "make friends then kill everyone" plans.

The tilting floor room proved no real challenge, between Artemis' Large bat form and various other means of flight. Once on the other side, and aware of some kind of magical aura down below, Brunner slipped his dwarfy body beneath the risen floor and flew down on his carpet to check them out. He returned with a magic handaxe and some scrolls.

Pressing on, they next torched the webs in the stairs, remaining back while they burned out, before unloading some more dispel magic's to 86 the fog in the hallway. Another knock spell later, and they saw a Large iron statue of Gorum, standing by himself in a large circular room. Once it activated, Enrol immediately identified the critter as an Iron Golem, and whipped out his 5d6 Wand of Lightning Bolt. Taking full advantage of everyone's resistance to electricity, he lit the robot guardian up and slowed him for 3 rounds.

Meanwhile, everyone else piled into the room, casting buffs, whacking the beast with sword (non-adamantine, via Rilani) and axe (most definitely adamantine, via Hestia.) A short slugfest ensued, with the poor, slowed Golem able to heal itself via divine mandate only once, before Hestia the Terrible severed his left leg at the thigh. Too much to handle, the monster fell with a tremendous crash, splitting into hundreds of iron shards and spikes.

Pressing on quickly, so as to take advantage of several minutes-long buffs, the group next encountered the Advanced Bloody Skeletal Champions. Able to gain initiative, for once, I unleashed a mighty volley of arrows, several of which sailed true. Everyone (save Brunner) took some minor arrow wounds, except Rilani. She caught a Nat-20/Nat-20 arrow to the head, dealing some 45-50 damage in one blow.

A few fireball[i]s and [i]hellfire[i]s later, and the group of skeletons fighting Rilani fell, reduced to small piles of ash. Hestia laid about, smashing about 1 foe every other round, and taking some minor wounds in return. Ganon, meanwhile, managed to [i]command undead exactly one of the undead, yielding a friendly Skeletal Champion, capable of giving directions to his "master's" rooms.

Just beyond that room, Mr. Feathers himself, Divine Guardian Zorek stood awaiting the party. Hemming and hawing almost lost the group the chance for "diplomacy," but Hestia, axe-swinging, blood-drenched, Gorum-worshipping madwoman that she is, took point. Zorek, all buffed to the nines, stood by the stairway, leveled his spear, and said, "Prove your might!"

That was all she needed to hear, and Hestia was off and running. Charging, to be more exact. Laying a serious whallop on the feather-wearing-fool, his first action in return put an anti-life-shell between this duel and the party, while a Hero Point fueled blade barrier hit each and every single PC, including new-skeleton-friend-Bob. Content to stay in his little bubble and trade blows, that impression changed quickly after Enrol dropped an enervation right through the shell, followed by one from Ganon as well.

The 160 or so damage Hestia tossed his way the next round also put a cramp in his style, only the divinely granted heal spell kept him on his feet. Try as he might, he could not drop the barbarian, mostly due to shield other and Brunner's rather effective healing magics, so Zorek redirected his attacks.

Moving proved to be his undoing, however, as Brunner managed to land a telekinesis and Nat-20'd his CMB to grapple. That set him up perfectly for Artemis's follow-up mozambique. She left his arms, legs, and lower torso intact, while his head and chest decorated the wall and floor in a spray of red. Quickly looting his corpse, our heroes pressed on to the north, much happier now that guards and wards faded with the death of Zorek.

In the next room, Armag himself waited for the chance to kill again. Standing behind a line of his skeletal champions, and wielding Ovinrbaane very sadly, we went almost last in initiative.

Once again, the undead fell to some combined melee, ranged, and AoE attacks, leaving poor Mr. Angry to deal with Ms. Rage by himself. That wouldn't have been an issue, except that he advanced past his archers, intent on landing a huge swipe onto Brunner.

Of course, I rolled a Nat-1.

From there, he put up a good fight, dealing some nasty sword blows to Hestia and receiving hammer swings in return. Enrol and Ganon both tried their best, but couldn't get anything to land, thanks to the sword. Finally, Artemis blasted him but good at point blank range, opening up his guard (and leaving him at exactly 0 hp) for Hestia to deliver the final blow. She did just that, with a spectacular 49 damage single hit, followed up with 3 more just like it, all on his corpse. Down went Armag.

A brief discussion ensued, where Enrol picked up Ovinrbaane via tongs and attempted to stash it "someplace safe." Having none of that, Hestia grabbed the sword herself (and succeeded on her Will save, just) and slung it across her back. From there, they looted the original Armag's tomb, and finally remembered they can search for hidden things in dungeons.

Rapidly finding the hidden treasure room, and stunned at the sheer amount of coinage they just found, the party began discussing just how they'd get all that loot out of there.

Enrol, meanwhile, dug out an old blanket, and began tossing coins atop it. By the time anyone else had an idea of how to transport some 1000-1500 lbs of coins, the transmuter pulled out his scroll of treasure rug or whatever its called, and reduced all the coin (and anything else on the blanket) to embroidered patterns on the material.

Most impressive preparedness on the part of Enrol's player: tons of knock scrolls, wands of extremely useful spells, and the exact right trick to make getting out with the loot easy and safe! Good Job, Paul!

From there, the team went into mop-up mode. The searched the rest of the place, yielding some 4-5k worth of ancient Kellid artifacts, and encountered a Derghodaemon. That fight went extremely quickly, as the predatory outsider summoned another of its ilk, and they began filling their chamber with swarms. Fireball wands took out the swarm, while Enrol nailed the non-summoned Daemon with a rod-persistent dismissal which landed successfully. Artemis and Hestia managed to drop the other one, finally clearing the dungeon of all its foes.

Back outside, the group teleported back to Kamelot, and began to sell off loot. Everyone scored some 24,000 in GPs, as well as securing some new bounties once in town. Some alchemist offered coin for giant slug acid, an up-and-coming taxidermist wanted an intact Fresh Water Elasmosaurus, and a traveling cleric of Desna was looking for some giant dragonfly wings with which to craft magic items.

Armed with this knowledge, plenty of bullets, arrows, and whatnot, the party hopped over to Tatzlford and began exploring hexes, once again. Heading generally west by southwest, they made it as far as the southern edge of Lake Hooktongue, securing 5 of the 6 dragonfly wings they needed, and chasing a Spirit Naga out of her swampy home with Acid-fireballs.

We broke there, and are set to resume Blood for Blood / War of the River Kings come next Sunday, June 12, 2011.

Stay tuned!

This thread is full of win.

@Turin: yay!

Re: Cheliax vs. Da Pirates of Stormy Water. Why fight? They want trade routes, people to pirate, and the freedom to dictate their own actions. Give them (better yet, SELL them, preferably with Diabolical Contracts Signed) Letters of Marque authorizing them, as Privateers of Imperial Cheliax, to raid, sink, and kill Andoran, Korvosan, Magnimarian, or other nations' vessels.

There's your naval irregulars, and the western/southern naval front is more solidly "defended."

Re: The Empire of Man. Seems to me that "clerics" who hide behind steel masks and offer godless praises should be ripe for infiltration. Inquisitors, Clerics, Oracles, Wizards, Sorcerers, and similar Asmodeus-worshipping folks would serve as excellent Rahadoumi "Priests." With the proper backstopping, they would be welcomed with open arms, and within a few generations that steel mask just may have some 5-pointed star decorations, methinks.

Re: Korvosa & Magnimar. The only reason Cheliax has not already taken these cities is lack of resources. Well, that plus the distances involved. That seems like a PERFECT job for your SpecWar division (read, PC's). Small groups, capable of launching asymmetric warfare and generating all sorts of chaos, fit nicely into the role of "advance forces." They seed the city for the Empire to become "the good guy," righting wrongs and winning hearts and minds the whole way through.

Re: Andoran. Seems like they're only a charismatic Evil leader away from becoming enemy #1 for a BUNCH of nations. It sure would be a shame if some unknown "hero" shows up to become the Abolitionist King, and just happens to be a diabolical plant all along (possessed, cursed, bribed, tricked, however you like). Imagine if George Washington said "Yes, I would love to be your new King!"

Re: The River Kingdoms. Leaving aside the plot from Kingmaker (since the AP's don't count as canon, right?), there's a LOT of resources up there, just waiting to be hammered into a cohesive force. If Brevoy becomes reunited, or someone manages to consolidate, say, The Stolen Lands, Pitax, or some of the other smaller communities, that's a significant fighting force. Being used to the terrain and irregular warfare tactics just add to their viability.

Long story short, with some long term strategic planning, entirely ruthless insertion of covert "sleeper" agents, and proper use of the diabolical resources at her disposal, Cheliax could conceivably become Aggressor (covertly) AND Defender (openly) of Golarion WWI. Bonus points go to them if they can make Andoran out to be the Nazis!

EBay!

I'm not alive again yet!

Fixed that for you.

Some things I'd like to see addressed in a Mythic Adventures book (and why I think so many people are asking for one, despite having never played at this level)

1) High-level combat is slower. That needs to be addressed.

a) resources to improve your mental math skills (c'mon, it's 5+5+3)
b) ways to speed calculation (average damage, roll half the dice and x2, have crits do max damage, etc.)
c) advice for how to deal with 5-15 active spell effects at a time
d) advice for organizing as a player (ex: calculate attacks when charging, power attacking, and normally NOW, not during fight)
e) get out the egg timer

+4,247 to this.

One trick I recently began (don't remember where I picked it up from):

Roll Initiative Last!

That's right. When you're finished with the combat scene and everyone is tallying treasure and figuring out how to heal/recover, one player (or the GM) should be taking initiative and noting it on the cards/list/etc.

Set everything in order, so the very next encounter goes something like this:

GM: OK, you guys turn left, and go through the door. <Draws room outline, couple of door> What's your marching order again?
Players: blah, blah, blah (GM takes this time to roll Init for his critters, make sure everything lines up
GM: <Finishes drawing room details, sets minis out> OK, Roguey McRougerson, you're first, and you see...

No break of immersion, no jar to the brain, just a smooth transition from general table-talk to in-combat tactical talk.

Do this every time, and you will LOVE yourself for it, each and every combat scene!

Thanks again to whomever I stole this from!

(It bears noting: we use initiative cards, just 3x5" note cards with Character Name and Initiative modifier listed on it. If need be, one player CAN in fact roll Init for the entire party.)

Arise, Mighty Bandit King, ARISE!

We reconvene this Sunday, June 5th, for the conclusion of Blood for Blood.

Our heroes, after narrowly defeating the dastardly, deadly, and dessicated Black Sisters, now stand poised at the brink of Armag's Tomb.

The roster remains:

Ganon Malfoy, Infernal Sorcerer and Grand Diplomat
Artemis Gayle, Growth Druid, Mistress of the Melisae, and State Warden
Hestia, Elemental Barbarian and Royal Headswoman
Brunner the Oracle, Party Healer, and now City Counsellor/Mayor
Rilani Astin Marten ,Order of the Cockatrice Cavalier and Duchess of Kamelot (soon to be Queen)
Enrol the Transmuter, Scroll-Keeper and Royal Magister

Will the re-enter the tomb?

Will they reincarnate Brunner, who fell to the Sisters' vicious picks?

Will they simply seal the cavern from the outside and walk away?

Stay tuned here, for the exciting conclusion of Kingmaker: Blood for Blood!

.

Want.

Agreed.

Mega-Want

Well...unless he's very high level, or otherwise extremely important (the chosen one, made of uranium, leaks gold from his pores, etc) no self-respecting General will allow the PC to get away with disrespecting him.

If the PC is a military officer/enlisted, that's grounds for discipline right there.

If he's a civilian, but not a noble, the General will probably be within his rights to bar him from further councils, remove privileges, etc.

If he IS a "noble" of the land, well, I guess who we have volunteering for the next "First Wave Assault" on an entrenched position.

For Player-to-Player conflict, I tend to stay out of it, unless its spilling over from In-Character to Out-Of-Character conflict. Then, I just remind everyone that this is a game, and we're not here to stab one another for reals.

SmiloDan wrote:

I agree with Prime Evil. Especially the bits about adding class levels to monsters rather than using epic level monsters.

And you can use my idea of a high level duskblade marilith getting 11 or so hits with a melee weapon channeling a disintegrate! (I figure a homebrew epic level feat will allow her to convert a ranged touch attack into a touch attack!)

Also, use lots of critters. Action Economy is Key!

Personally, I avoid homebrew feats - there's more than enough wacked out feats out there without me adding my own. Not that disintegrate is really a big deal anyways, since spell save DCs are relatively easy.

However, anything with a touch attack can make excellent use of the Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike feats. Not that that helps the marilith duskblade, but she'd be better off taking Perfect Multiweapon Fighting anyways, which would give her six full attack sequences - a total of 24 attacks not including tail, etc. Add Quicken Spell-Like Ability and Multispell and she's pretty ugly.

Personally, I'm inclined to create a marilith magus with a few levels in abjurant champion or spellwarp sniper.

Or an Amalgalm Marilith Kyton Magus.

30' reach with chains, animate chains, 6xfull attacks, and whatever kind of touch/zap/murder spells you want.

Quick drinker trait.
Injection spears/blades.

There's your "use" upgrades.

Alchemist gets the feat for free, and can accelerate the speed of completion.

Witches can get cauldron, then an upgraded version that allows for multiple potions crafted in the same process.

Both can take hedge wizard trait for further gp reduction, and Skill Focus(Alchemy/Spellcraft).

Boom, move-action potions, of a huge array of spells, at reduced cost and time to craft.

Not sure if there's anything else to toss in thee, but either way, you have a Witch or Alchemist to back up their potion making.

Not so much advice, but if you check out my Campaign Journal, "A Bandit King Arises!" you will see plenty of smart evil play.

Plus, some not so smart stuff.

Sorry for no link, on my phone at the moment.

Mindblank, as mentioned, will help.

Alternatively, don't give them cause to use that True Seeing in the first place.

Summons, clouds, walls, and the like can all block LoS, as can lead coated materials.

Play an Illusionist very tricks, and " lie with the truth" as described above.

psionichamster wrote:

from what I recall, those who pre-ordered through Adamant's site got the PDF when the final proof shipped to printers, and the Print copy when they shipped to distributors. Kind of like the Paizo setup.

Hm, I didn't get anything like that, and I pre-ordered over the Adamant site as far as I can tell.

Gareth, can you check that, perhaps? My name is Stefan Radermacher.

Still not shipped, as far as I know, which would be why we haven't gotten our PDF, I assume.

Your general build looks fine, and probably quite fun to play.

I am currently playing a Gnomish Illusionist in Serpent's Skull, and so far (we're level 4 and about to start the 2nd book), he's rocked!

Highlights:

Color Spray vs. Boss Critter. Using ambush tactics, we were able to lead a sizeable portion of the "last encounter" critters into a "color spray firing ling." Staying in stealth, and really over-using the Effortless Trickery ability of Silent Image + Ghost Sound worked great.

"Greased up Deaf Guy" When you're dealing with cannibals, one of the most likely things to get them to act in the way you'd like is to give them some bait. Since none of our PCs is human (except the Bard, who didn't want to be bait), we started using a Silent Image of a burly, loin-cloth-clad, Conan clone. When we got into fights, he would "charge" the nearest clump of cannibals while the rest of us vanished into the jungle, and set up ambush points.

Stealthy little bugger. Combining his Campaign Trait, decent Dexterity, Small Size, Cat Familiar, and skills in Stealth, the Wizard is just as good, if not better, at hiding as the Rogue and Ranger. An all-stealth party is very doable under these situations, allowing for more methodical, PC-driven, PC-controlled combats.

Here's his Character Sheet, for comparison's sake.

Metaphor, Level 4 Gnome Illusionist

Hm... did I pre-order this? I can't remember. :)

Edit: Ah, yes, I did, back in August. Good. Can't be long now...

Do we get print and PDF by any chance?

from what I recall, those who pre-ordered through Adamant's site got the PDF when the final proof shipped to printers, and the Print copy when they shipped to distributors. Kind of like the Paizo setup.

Want them all.

Will buy them all.

If you make all the Iconics, that means my "Evil" hand-painted metal versions will get to remain awesome NPCs and the "Good" pre-painted plastic versions get used as PCs.

Or, vice-versa.

Kudos to Paizo & WizKids, and I can't wait until 4Q 2011!!!!

(also: want subscription. I know its unlikely, but I still want it!)

Crazy sea bugs from outer space.

Obviously I like the tripping missile trick.

Combining entangle, knockdown, and possibly slow on several targets at once is nice.
Adding HP damage on top is just icing on the cupcake.

I second the various pit spells. Combine with a monk, fighter, or other movement controller character for fun. For extra points, toss the baddies into a pit, then seal ghetto top with metal/stone/what have you. Jar I'll critter.

I like the Cross-Dressing-Wizard bit up above.

I also like the all monk party, that sounds wicked fun.

Trap springer, scout, and defenestrator are all roles our party's monks have taken in the past.

The endgame of Savage Tide wound up with a Huge Dwarf grapple-master and a Huge Dwarf Warblade murdering every single non-boss critter in one round. The BBEG's took longer, but only because of crazy DR or some specific defense.

Halfling Cavalier on a riding dog.

I am not kidding, your about as tall as a human is normally and your mount does not think its weird that you want it to go inside. Sure your weapons are smaller but your challenge and your party buffs should make up for that.

Oh, and Mithiral breastplate barding as soon as you can wrangle it, you want your puppy to be fast and long lived.

Also consider: Gnome Paladin on Riding Dog. Or whatever kind of critter you prefer.

For slightly reduced weapon damage, and 20' base speed, you get +1 AC, +1 HP/Lvl, +1 Fort, and +2 Cha as a Paladin. Let's not forget the bonus to hit, stealth, and craft skills. Low-light vision and innate SLA's never hurt anyone, either.

I had a Gnome Paladin all the way through Legacy of Fire. He mounted whatever he could grab locally, though, as he divine bonded his sword. Either way is extremely viable, though. [rul=http://paizo.com/store/byCompany/m/magnificentEgos/uncommonCharacters/v5748btpy7clh]There's even a mini just for him.[/url]

As a Paladin, you get to lead your valiant kingdom through righteous leadership and massive charisma.

For Kingmaker, I think a mounted character can be quite the strong character, both in flavor and mechanics.

Pros: you'll have lots of wide-open type fighting, and will really enjoy the mounted speed while exploring the map. If you have a smart mount, you can teach it stuff like skills and games. If possible, consider a flying mount.

Cons: There's also lots of not-wide-open fighting. There're plenty of dungeons and delves in KM, and a Large or larger quadruped may have trouble getting in and around.

Possible solutions:

Gnome/Halfling on a Medium mount. This works great with Summoners, Sorcerers, and Paladins. A charging, power-attacking, smiting Gnomish Paladin makes for a very scary, charismatic, and powerful combatant. Find a climbing, jumping, sticky-tongue'd mount (like The Giant Gecko, and you're cooking with gas.

Cavalier/Paladin with a Horse. Be prepared to leave Bessy behind at the dungeon entrance more than a few times. The upshot is that your horse, being slightly more intelligent (not to mention quite a bit more comat-capable) can easily defend the party's horses and secure your escape vehicles. Very easy to become "Prince Valiant" or "The Black Knight" and loved/feared throughout your kingdom.

Fighter/Ranger Mounted Archer. Small or Medium race will work here, but the character will be a bit feat-starved. Unlike the Charger Knight, you have the option of remaining out of the limelight (and danger.) With a lot of the encounters happening at long distances, and the know-how to capitalize on that stand-off, you exhibit all the deadliness that is PF Archers, and probably ride more than a few horses into the ground.

Summoner. Create your mount when and where you want, plus all the awesome that is Summoner to boot.

Druid is another choice. Here the focus is on spellcasting, with the mount transportation and possibly close-in defense. It's still mount-oriented, and potentially allows for the following, pending GM discretion, of course:

Leadership + Natural Spell + Rider of Rohan Cohort + Druid Horsey = Charging Lance Damage + Full Druid Casting. (AKA, Win.)

Starsoul Oracle or Witch.

Combat = golf club, spell, or thrown radish.

Slowfall, ko power, and healing are key abilities

As an aside, have you thought of adventure support for this new ruleset?

It seems like that'd be high-priority for getting folks active with the new game.

Just started reading The Steampunk Bible. This thing is great. It's chock full of full-color illustrations, and tons of articles, introductions, and sidebars written by all sorts of SF authors.

It starts at the beginning, with Poe, Verne, and Wells, and includes cosplay, music, comics, and other visual art media.

Eye-opening stuff, and a great "Introduction to Steampunk" book.

First thought: you are a mean GM.

I like it.

Books 1-5 are completely playable, right off the bat. Tides of Dread is one of my favorite adventures to play or run, ever. The lead up to there, if you play on the NPC's and tailor their interactions with your players, pays off richly.

I am not sure you could tone down the higher level stuff, at least, not without losing a lot of the flavor. Even if you did level down the mid-range books, there are certain general utility functions the party is expected to have.

I am certain it would be a lot of fun to run Sasserine for a while. In my game, the party had just gotten half a dozen shipping vessels and set up a major shipping concern. It also answers the age-old question of "Pirates or Demons?"

Yeah, because I just had to make him, here's my take on the "Knock Down Force Missile Mage"

Google Docs Link

As an archery ranger, the obvious "Optimal" weapon is a Composite Longbow +x (where x is the PC's Str mod).

Since this particular PC has a Str penalty (Str 9, right?), that's right out of the question.

So, if there's a hard ceiling of "must maximize DPR," this will be a self-correcting problem, since the low-Str ranger will expire soon.

If not, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, Far Shot, Dodge, Mobility, Shot on the Run, Manyshot, Vital Strike will take the "unfocused" ranger pretty darn far. (Up to 14-15th level, if he takes nothing but archery feats.)

For this particular character, Quick Draw, Throw Anything, Caught off Guard, Improvised Weapon Mastery would compliment the standard Ranger combat style feats quite nicely.

While it may seem like the #'s won't match up later on, I don't expect this character to have any serious trouble with standard adventures as I've seen them.

If you are going one-handed:

If you don't mind, take one level of fighter, probably the first. Take Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance and one feat of your choice
You gain proficiency in all martial weapons and qualify for mithral breastplate later in the game. You gain prof. with the scimitar. Dervish Dance let's you use your dex modifier for attacks and damage.
Alas, to use the feat, you can't use a shield or another weapon in your off-hand.

As you now don't need str for anything but carrying things, take only 10, and use 12 for another stat of your choice.

Hadn't thought about that...but it's very very doable

You don't even really need Fighter 1 for it.

Weapon Prof: Scimitar, Weapon Finesse @ 1st
Combat Trick: Dervish Dance at 2nd.

Sure, you won't be super great from level 1, but noone is, really. Since you can't take Dervish Dance @ 1st level, delaying it until your Rogue Talent comes into play is no sweat.

Now, you can put that 12 into say, Charisma, or Intelligence.

psionichamster wrote:

Ah...I was wrong in thinking Spell Perfection just dropped the level adjustment by 1. Since it drops it entirely, that's even groovier.

Now I gotta make this guy as an NPC for my Kingmaker game, using a dedicated Evoker with a Ring of Wizardy 1.

hehe

Use pathfinder society wizard rules and it's even worse:

Human Evoker(magical lineage(magic missile))
B -- Spell Focus(evocation)
1 -- Varisian Tattoo(evocation)
h -- Toppling Spell

Almost a shame to not have that other trait to get precious apprentice so you have 2 missiles at first level.

Extra Traits @ 1st level, perhaps?

Ah...I was wrong in thinking Spell Perfection just dropped the level adjustment by 1. Since it drops it entirely, that's even groovier.

Now I gotta make this guy as an NPC for my Kingmaker game, using a dedicated Evoker with a Ring of Wizardy 1.

hehe

I concur with the above suggestion. Scout Archetype Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack is pretty tasty. I have been having great success with essentially the same character design (except using an Elf w/ Longbow)

With your stats, and that in mind, I'd probably go with something like this:

1 Dodge
1 (human) Mobility
2 (talent)- Weapon Finesse
3 Toughness
4(talent)- Fast Stealth ---> Scout's Charge kicks in
5 Combat Reflexes
6(talent) Combat Trick: Spring Attack
7 Nimble Moves
8(talent) Trap Spotter ---> Skirmisher kicks in
9 Acrobatic Steps
10 (talent) Improved Evasion
11 Improved Critical (very optional)
12(talent) Skill Mastery (Perception, Stealth, Acrobatics - possibly Disable Device)
13 xxx
14(talent) Knock-Out Blow / something else that strikes your eye
15 yyy

Use a longspear whenever you can, and prioritize getting some Strength boosting gear. Power Attack is a very viable feat later on.

If you HAVE to get right up next to the baddy, consider Reduce Person with a keen rapier/kukri. The small reduction in base weapon damage and strength is more than offset by the increase in AC, to hit, and reflex saves. Plus, on a wand, it's cheap!

For skills, certainly max out Acrobatics, Disable Device, Perception, Stealth, UMD. Depending on the rest of your party, your remaining skill selections should fill in gaps where the party doesn't have competent users. Knowledge (Local), Diplomacy, Linguistics, Bluff, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Climb, Appraise, and Swim are often neglected.

If playing with Traits, something to get Survival as a class skill would be nice, as it goes exceptionally well with the whole "man-tracker" feel this character has going.

Looks like a solid option...hit hard, move away, draw the foe into a tactically superior position. Let the fighter guy get the "kill" once the enemy charges after the scout guy.

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:

Aberzombie wrote:

Same here. I've been getting over a cold, so I cut down on my drinking.

The wife won't get me any beer while I am on the meds...the great big bully. :-(

CALL 911

Calling 911 for Beer

note: please don't do this, EMT's, Dispatchers, and Cops don't like it.

/PSA