At the risk of hearing you say Schrodinger once again. Don't most of those classes have a variety of pretty standard way(Spells perhaps) to stop you from doing that. Before you invoke your Deity's name let's take an AP,as you so often suggest, as an example. I've just finished book 4 of Rise of the Runelords and Literally every spell casting big bad has buff time. I don't think this is to spoilery, but flight and Mirror image especially. So even if that particular maneuver isn't negated by flight, which negates close to half or more because he's to far away, you still have less than a 25% chance to land the maneuver because of mirror image. Lest you think this something new every other spell caster in the earlier books also had time to buff. That's not Schrodinger that's the facts. Now against PC casters your tactics could be sound, but generally speaking you're not fighting PC casters. You're fighting villains who often, either for reasonable reasons or GM fiat, have their buffs up. So in almost all of these cases it would be better to not even try a maneuver and just try to hit them.
I'm not sure where the rules are Exactly but the drow on golarion practice an.art.called fleshwarping that allows them to alter and create new species from existing creatures.
Since I've actually worked in distribution(I was a salesperson for a major game distributor when 3e hit.) I've seen a LOT of great games get little to no sales traction because of a lot of that had nothing to do with how great their games were. They didn't make a lot of money because the distributors didn't believe in them so they under ordered, they lacked for money themselves so while their ideas were great their products looked like crap so no one bought it. Hell Major RPG companies with proven track records made big risk gambles that when they didn't take off hurt them immeasurabley. When WEG went under we received every single TORG item they had for free, we literally just paid shipping, they just wanted it out of the warehouse. Remember the white wolf aberrant scion skirmish game that WW bought the machines to produce the mini's for before they didn't sell. On the other hand the head of sales for the star wars CCG was an awesome salesperson, even if he knew nothing about the game, so he managed to push it to a level it wouldn't have had especially in non RPG/book store sales. SO yes as a matter of fact sales, while a factor, isn't the be all and end all of how good a product is.
The fact that followers unlike cohorts are supposed to be NPC classes. So that army of people are in his guild but they ARENT your followers. Your followers are either experts warriors and commoners who follow him or aristocrats who take his advice as gospel. The closest he could come are adepts and they would be really bad press for a "arcane school" if almost all of the students were low end shamanistic casters instead of wizards.
I'll repeat basically what everyone else has said. Divine casters who focus on being casters usually have a hard time until around 5-7th level because the early divine lists assumes you're going to buff and then hit somebody. That's why battle clerics are better in the low levels while being slowly edged out by the casters as the levels get higher
Another player's. Character died last weekend and he's new and not very rules savy so he asked for my help. Unfortunately Its going to be a monster week at work along with a gigantic paper so can anyone lend a hand. I'm looking for spells and feats for an aasimar celestial blooded tattooed sor. Hes looking for mostly buff and utility with only small offensive ability. The only 2 feats he knows he wants are angelic blood and wings. Any help would be helpful. Thanks
The issue that your missing is that EVERY other class benefits from those buffs and flanking bonus with either a better base hit-ranger- the ability ti buff or use spells the bard or the same level of sneak attack viv alchemist. Plus every single one if those classes just dies what you're talking about better in its own way. That's the thing that Lamintius comment about the blankets doesn't take into account. In literally 99% of the situational combats you could drop one of the above and they'd outperform the rogue while.performing his job out of combat just as well if not better
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
I loved TORG, but I could never get anyone else to play it.
The problem with the rogue isn't a problem with the rogue. its the general skill buff for the other classes. With the collapsed skill list, the change in cross class skills, UMD becoming so universally available, and no cross class penalty. It became a lot easier to master whatever set of skills you need with less points. Then there's the "flavorful" but generally awful rouge talents that are so good that extra combat feat is one of there best choices. In any other class with a similar mechanic(barbarian rage powers, magus arcana, witch hex, etc etc)you trade feats for those powers in a heartbeat because in most cases they're BETTER than feats. Add in the fact that trapfinding is ridiculously overvalued because of nostalgia and not modern adventure design. Traps aren't TPK's anymore(at least not in the AP's home games vary because home games vary) then add in the list of other classes that get trapfinding and most of there other class powers. Hell sneak attack was given to one of the better alchemist archetypes. Again The problem with the rogue isnt the rogue its the fact that the rogue abilities were so good they were all parceled out to other classes and archetypes that got the rogue goodies ON TOP OF their own powers. Add in the fact that they get 1 good saving throw for no reason(every other class except for the fighter-don't get me started-with only 1 good save has significant supernatural powers.
Just like core they range from really powerful(full casters) to badly designed(monk rogue) or a good idea, but bad execution(I'm gonna catch flack for this, but the base fighter).
cavalier at best kinda meh. the challenge mechanic is cool, but that damn animal companion sucks(unless your character is small) and it got saddled with teamwork feats for no reason other than someone though teamwork feats were a good idea.
Alchemist suffers from really weird execution. They're kind of all over the place what with mutagen, bombs, and extracts that take a standard action. IMO the mutagen should be more of a class feature, sort of like rage, that the alchemist can invoke at anytime for a certain number of times/day. To me it feels like they took 2 1/2 classes and jammed them together.
inquisitor if alchemists are weirdly executed then inquisitors are just strange. Its a divine skill monkey with class features that feel like thy were literally pulled out of a hat AND they suffer from teamwork feat although a much lighter case.
witch great class, but more needs to be done with the patrons and the hexes need a serious overhaul. If you want to play debuff or save or suck they're great(maybe even to great) but the rest blow
oracle amazing class with great execution, except for curses. It honestly feels like the curse design teams were in seperate rooms when they were developed and no one could decide how much of a drawback and benefit each should give. As it stands there are a couple of no brainers and a list of things to avoid like the plague.
Gunslinger. extemely poorly designed. A full BAB class that shoots a weapon that targets touch AC sucks until about 5th level then quickly steals the show especially if you allow alchemical cartridges. But then again this class could suffer because I hate the PF firearm rules. Touch AC why?
Magus great class, but kinda locked into a couple of builds that revolve around either shocking grasp or that natural attack frost spell that escapes me right now. Needs a little more breadth in its attack spells(something that isnt elemental) and has 3 amazing archtypes that make it even stronger: black blade, kensai, and hexcrafter
Samurai. Another class that's kind of all over the place the best thing I can say about it is that its better than a base cavalier, but what does that mean.Primarily its not stuck with teamwork feats You're still stuck with a suck animal companion(once again its a great class for the horizontally challenged)
Ninja. close to what a rogue should be. If you gave them evasion and trap sense itd almost fix the rogue class. Almost
Summoner The worst of the bunch. Great idea horrible exectuion. A class that needs a character audit every level and you have to really familiar with its incredible fiddely and unique rules or it turns into godzilla. No just no
Will your Gm allow you to use the guild rules in Inner Sea Magic because if he does you can, by about level 9-12 depending on how much guild prestige you build up, not only regain the three caster levels lost to one of your classes, but regain 1 of the 3 levels lost in the other. This isn't magical knack you get back up to 3 caster levels of spells and other benefits of being a full caster. That's my first advice. If that answer is a no then its going to be tough, for at least until about 10-12th level because you're a caster who's 3 level behind. My suggestion don't go 3/3 then theurge get one class to about 7 then go theurge. Its honestly a lot less painful. I'd also suggest the following alternative
ok now that the boilerplate is out of the way I'd stay away from the generalist wizard. Being a specialist these days doesn't cost that much and half of it can be regained at 9th level. Just pick 2 schools that your cleric list will cover anyway. I'd also focus on being more of a support character. You're never going to shine as much as a more specialized character so play to that strength. SO utility and buffs mixed in with a little battlefield control.
My response would be take the trait opportunistic gambler if you're worried about it(I probably wouldn't be between barbarian damage reduction, I'm an invulnerable rager fan myself, and the enhanced hit die its never come up. Its knocked me into the negatives, but never killed me. I mean I'd take the trait anyway its a great way to rage cycle, but not for that reason.)
As was said last night a lot-IMO-most people disagree about optional rules-like WoP or armor as DR-being the same as powers feats or spells introduced later. So any point that needs to be made that uses WoP isn't of use to the majority of the people on these boards. I'm not.picking a fight or arguing with you about this. I'm simply explaining why you're going to run into a brick wall.every time you bring it up.
I remember reading an old fantasy novel. I think it was called Zorachus where it talked about a high priest of an evil god that was basically an "athiest" with no faith or belief in what his god stood for, but the evil god didn't care as long as he performed the rituals and still granted him power.
you keep missing the point. We're not arguing about WOP but saying that you cant use an optional rule to prove your point. I'm glad you like it but unlike your home games its not a.default assumption like allowing spells feats and barbarian powers.from later books. Either way I'm done trying to explain why an option isn't isn't the same as.expansion.
Its not an optional rule its a new power. Please stop confusing the two.
stop using words of power its an optional system that a number of GM's don't allow. It'd be the same as if you were using armor as DR to prove your point. Its not the same as.different powers.released later. Its its.own unique system
This thread http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ppj3?What-fighters-DO
ok on to the challenge
here's the interesting part, I Think, I want the people who create builds to create the challenge. You can't participate in a challenge you create. The challenges must contain.
I think this will attempt to answer those that say that fighters have the best build versatility(aka only fighters can be a proper knight or the ranger's fluff stops him from being certain character ideas. lick a dex based fighter or what have you) while at the same time addressing the fighters serious lack of skills
An example would be
Lore warden or freehand fighter(pick which features you want more. Personally I'd go lore warden) 2 levels of master of many styles monk. Then depending on your DM use the fighter re-training ability to burn off stunning fist(Its a bonus feat even if its from another class. Sean's said he would allow it, but he's in charge of GOlarion not rules development)pick up dervish dance as soon as possible or if you're looking for less martial more half caster go kensai magus or dawnflower dervish bard.
actually any martial class can be built to be the things you're describing. I remember creating a paladin gladiator that had to use brass knuckels cause that's all he was allowed. While wearing heavy armor may cost a ranger class feats unless he spends a feat and pays for mithril, but it can be done. Monks make great duelists etc etc. You're letting the class name define the class. Its the same as if you think that every wizard is a conjuration specialist who wears a pointy hat and never enters melee while every cleric is a support charcter.
I have actually seen those builds and my statement STANDS ive never seen anything that impressive from you or the other fighter ROX contingent. But its my own fault for paying attention ill take a page fromdr buzzard and happily go back to being a dirty min maxer that doesn't know how to play the game while ignoring your posts.
Another player in RotRL is playing a cleric of urgithao/agent of the grave. He just hit 5th level in the class and can pick any 3 necromancy spells off any other list. He generally runs him as a bad touch cleric who just got undead giant body guards. So what 3 spells should he take? Ive narrowed it down to
No you haven't proven anything. The closest ive seen on the build threads are either not class specific(aka any class can use the same build for those extra skill points) or use the human racial to make up the shortcoming.
Hexcrafter magus. Magus are one of if not the best Nova damage classes hexes give you debuff or save/suck. Kind of a Swiss army character if you will. Its a fragile class at lower level but its a lot of fun. Also despite what people tell you it doesn't have to be built with dervish dance.
Sorry my kindle cut me off
The three problem classes suffer from different problems
SO lets compare the fighter to its closest CRB buddy: the ranger
So with almost any concept for a warrior character is actually
I like the build and its a solid crit fishing magus, but I'd lose weapon focus between arcane accuracy, high dex, and boosting your weapon you'll hit. I'd pick up elemental spell(like everyone else has said), but one thing have you looked at the Hexcrafter magus. It only costs you spell recall(which is readily replaceable with pearls of power depending on item availability in game) and you get a whole slew of hexes. I'm playing a str based hexcrafter and I can do the normal magus shocking crit fish(also bleed is so much better than arcane mark), debuff, or save or suck at the drop of a hat with auto scaling Dc's. YMMV.
D20pfsrd had to change because they started selling PDFs. Paizo was cool with them putting up golarion specific stuff as long as it was just another fan site. When it became a business they had to play by the rules and remove golarion specific stuff. They renamed the paths of prestige classes and removed the Gol specific. Feats.
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Sorry if it seems like I'm being dense, but I can only find 2 tables(1 for prepared and 1 for spont casters) that mention spells by level and both of them go to 9th level. Did I just miss something in the class descriptions that limits it? I know how the multicast system works in your game(absolutely amazing BTW), but I'm stuck on this one snag in my understanding.