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Any lesser rod? Quicken is the obvious choice.



Clerics, with suppplementary material, can make VERY strong summoners. Sacred Summons, Summon Good Monster are huge, and add the usual SF Conj, Augment Summonming (and maybe Superior Summoning), they may well be more potent summoners than wizards...

Also, Clerics are not like most Paizo classes - they really do reward Prestige Classing. They don't have capstone abilities, and usually get their 2nd set of domain powers at 8th...

Hellknight Enforcer is awesome, losing literally NOTHING from cleric progression - check out the Catechesis ability.


Wizard and Sorceror are out. Bard out by your own choice...

But this party needs someone who can throw a haste spell.

Master Summoner

They are suprisingly effective battlefield support and control casters. Max UMD and you can back up healing. The eidolon becomes a skill monkey. (the reason you are not a regular summoner is that the Eidolon would be pretty redundant with all the other melee in the party).


James Jacobs wrote:
pad300 wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

Also, keep in mind that there's only so much we can do with a race like androids in the space of a single page... especially when that single page requires us to spend a significant chunk reprinting some information so that it's easier to use them as characters (be they NPCs or PCs).

Fortunately... I have no intention of leaving this as the final word on androids, or on the various types of feats and racial traits and other things that they might be able to gain at some point. It may just be that I made sure to include androids AND robots in this book for a specific reason...

And in fact, making androids immune to morale boosts and thus making them poor choices for barbarians might almost be said to be a specifically deliberate choice.

Can we have some Ghoran love as well? And some fluff to go with our crunch for both? Like how long each race lives? Are both effectively immortal?

The ghorans are Erik's invention; he's the one to ask for more flavor there, alas, and he's really busy, also alas.

As for lifespans... my preference would be that both androids and ghorans live about as long as humans do.

I'm guessing you're going to say go bug Erik again, but how does a Ghoran's self reincarnate ability (Ghorus Seed) interact with it's lifespan? Does it start again every re-planting?


James Jacobs wrote:

Also, keep in mind that there's only so much we can do with a race like androids in the space of a single page... especially when that single page requires us to spend a significant chunk reprinting some information so that it's easier to use them as characters (be they NPCs or PCs).

Fortunately... I have no intention of leaving this as the final word on androids, or on the various types of feats and racial traits and other things that they might be able to gain at some point. It may just be that I made sure to include androids AND robots in this book for a specific reason...

And in fact, making androids immune to morale boosts and thus making them poor choices for barbarians might almost be said to be a specifically deliberate choice.

Can we have some Ghoran love as well? And some fluff to go with our crunch for both? Like how long each race lives? Are both effectively immortal?


I would hesitate to assume an single school of Azlanti fashion (even though this kind of thing is so common in fantasy - 1 race, 1 culture and no variance... Can you say cookie-cutter caricature?). Azlant had at least 1 continents worth of space and thousands of years. They probably had hundreds of fashion trends...


Just as a note, there is at least another spell that share the Chill Touch multiple touch attack mechanic: Frostbite. If you interpret these spells as unleashing the multiple Touch Attacks, beyond those allowed by BAB, the effect is horrifically powerful. A first level spell that delivers CL x (D6+CL) is well in violation of the spell damage caps, and with no save and a rider effect, is obviously broken. To add more limburger, garnish with the Reach Spell metamagic, making it ranged touch attacks, as a lvl 2 spell

In contrast, there is another spell, Calcific Touch, which has a very similar mechanic: Generate CL Touch Attacks. It's wording: "Once per round, you may deliver a touch attack that ... ". I believe that this language was specifically chosen as a limiting factor on wizards sharing this spell with familiars who have multiple attacks (eg. cats). Multiple touch attacks is bad enough with Chill Touch/Frostbite...

In response to the original poster, who was looking for a good Magus spell, Frostbite, IMO, is better than Chill Touch: More Damage that rises quite quickly, and the Fatigued rider is 2 points of strength loss, and 2 points of dex loss, and can't run or charge, and doesn't allow a saving throw.


IIRC one of Elvanna`s daughters has already been statted up here:

http://paizo.com/products/btpy8go0?Pathfinder-Module-The-Witchwar-Legacy

and is in the D20pfsrd`s NPC Database

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/unique-monsters/cr-20/ilivorr-karanasi-hum an-witch-20

Presumably Elvanna is worse news...

BTW if they have killed Karzoug “quite easily“, they are likely going to eat your version of Elvanna for breakfast, due to the gimpness of the witch spell list (ie. no Time Stop for example). And Karzoug had a buttload of DM additions for a 20th level special NPC - 200? bonus HP from implanted Ioun Stones, immunity to a bunch of mind affecting effects, multiple artifacts, REALLY high stats...

PS are you sure you have figured Elvanna`s hex DC`s right? DC 27 seems low for a 34 int = +12 to DC, and 20 levels of effective hexing (as Witch and Winter Witch are supposed to stack) ... should be 32 I think.


KBrewer wrote:
pad300 wrote:
KBrewer wrote:


As for Servitor 2, I think you missed something. Putting "Boost" on the Selected word increases the level of all the effect words by 3. Servitor 2 to summon 1d4+1 creatures takes a fifth level slot (this is what I meant about Servitor not being suitable to summon multiple lower level summons - it's an extra level behind the regular version's 1d4+1 summon, and it even takes a meta word to use.)
Well thats just terrible. One of the major good points about summoning is typically getting a bunch of lower level critters - brute combatants pretty much top out in Summon Monster VI with the Dire Tiger, for example... Not to mention summoning clusters of Bralanis for lightning bolt support, or Vulpinals for Healing (18d6 lay on hands per Vulpinal and SM 6 can get pretty damn close to a Heal!)

Yeah, the "no multiples" bit does kind of suck, but I think it's peanuts compared to getting that standard action summon (the paranoid part in me wants the GM to have almost no opportunity to make me roll a concentration check.)

Plus, if you're playing in a campaign high-enough level where summoning multiples is a lot better than just 1-of the highest, you're probably pretty close to just using the Abyssal bloodline to destroy things.

(As a side note... are you thinking of 3.5 summoning? I didn't think Vulpinals were summonable in pathfinder.)

Vulpinals are an alternate. Check out a pretty good guide here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iJ3uBI7QuRjwRQvLYuNBsdqNPxmM9ZZ2Jky4Zx2 ELTg/edit

One major thing he missed though was Inner Sea Magic, pg 20 - Summoning Specialization, which is just awesome...


KBrewer wrote:


As for Servitor 2, I think you missed something. Putting "Boost" on the Selected word increases the level of all the effect words by 3. Servitor 2 to summon 1d4+1 creatures takes a fifth level slot (this is what I meant about Servitor not being suitable to summon multiple lower level summons - it's an extra level behind the regular version's 1d4+1 summon, and it even takes a meta word to use.)

Well thats just terrible. One of the major good points about summoning is typically getting a bunch of lower level critters - brute combatants pretty much top out in Summon Monster VI with the Dire Tiger, for example... Not to mention summoning clusters of Bralanis for lightning bolt support, or Vulpinals for Healing (18d6 lay on hands per Vulpinal and SM 6 can get pretty damn close to a Heal!)


Also, as a follow up, assuming Human bonus spells come as spells, a look at what spells & words I would be considering

Words 9th : Control Time, Servitor IX, Dimensional Gate
Words 8th : Servitor VIII, Winter`s Wrath, Repulse
Words 7th : Servitor VII, Dimensional Shift Caustic Cloud
Words 6th : Servitor VI, Negation, Energy Immunity
Words 5th : Servitor V (retrain as Acid Wave), Stone Wall , Dimensional Jump, Crush Will (use Meta word Master to add Penetrating at 11th and Irresistible at 13th)
Words 4th : Servitor IV (retrain as Borrow Future), Beast Form, Unseen Shell, Ice Blast (use Metaword Mastery to add either Manifestation or Mind Warp at 9th ... and consider the other one early... like 3ed, just for more Boost uses)
Words 3ed : Servitor III (retrain as Dimension Hop), Torture, Complex Order, Glimmering (hard choices Far Sight and Undeath are both really strong)
Words 2ed : Servitor II (retrain as Sense Hidden), Accelerate, Frost Fingers, Disappear, Corrosive Bolt,
Words 1st : Friendship (retrain as meta Quiet), Wrack, Lock Ward, Fog Bank, Alignment Shield (the re-roll effect can be VERY useful at high levels) Dash (retrain as meta Careful)
Words 0th : Sense Magic, Decipher, Echo, Cramp, Lift, Flame Jet, Acid Burn, Distant, Lengthy

Spells 9th: Bloodline
Spells 8th: Bloodline, Polymorph Any Object, Greater Planar Binding, Moment of Prescience (or Mind Blank, Prediction of Failure, Trap The Soul, Create Demiplane ...)
Spells 7th: Bloodline, Limited Wish, Simalcrum or Magnificent Mansion
Spells 6th: Bloodline, Planar Binding (retrain as contingency), Greater Dispel Magic
Spells 5th: Bloodline,Lesser Planar Binding (retrain as Icy Prison), Suffocation (or Telekinesis or Overland Flight)
Spells 4th: Bloodline, Enervation, Dimensional Anchor
Spells 3ed: Bloodline, Magic Circle, Dispel Magic (retrain as Mirror Image; yes, staying alive is good!)
Spells 2ed: Bloodline, Rope Trick, False Life
Spells 1st: Bloodline, Color Spray (retrain as Feather Fall), Ear Piercing Scream (retrain as Anticipate Peril)
Spells 0th: Light, Prestigidation, Mending (yeah, its worth not getting 3 hp...)


Question, given a bloodline's bonus spells come as actual spells, not WOP words, why do you think that Human bonus spells become WOP words? As a player, I'd certainly take the bonus spells; there are some effects that are nearly impossible with WOP eg. Planar Binding, Limited Wish, Dimensional Anchor, Polymorph any Object...Not to mention some dominant save or Die effects (Suffocate, Icy Prison).

I'm surprised that you have rated Metaword Mastery Green - I would think blue. Using Boost is sooooo commmon, you need every use of metawords you can get. Also as a rules question, does a given spell count for more than one use of metawords. Eg does a Burst (boosted) Acid Wave (Mind Warp) count as 1 use of metawords or 2?

Summon Servitor 2 is blue - it will devastate fights with boost...1d4+1 blocks of hp and attacks (giant frog/Giant Spider/Hyena) turns outnumbered and outflanked around very effectively at 3ed level...

Regarding Unfetter, falling damage caps at 20d6.

I would encourage you to continue with the higher level words, and looking further into combinations.


deuxhero wrote:
Something or other Arcanist in Paths of Prestige also gets a good aura if you want it as an arcane caster.

Magaambyan Arcanist

And Hellknight Signifier gets Aura of Law.

but as typed Aura's, do they count for the Aura class feature?


Did pathfinder make an error when they created/adopted/converted the Vulpinal Agathion to Pathfinder?
Vulpinals don't have bows by the description (nor arrows), and yet have Flame Arrow as an SLA...
In 3.0 Flame Arrow could also do a Scorching Ray effect (firing off flaming bolts). Should the Vulpinal have Scorching Ray instead of Flame Arrow as an SLA? (Or perhaps some other attack spell?)


A quick cross-check. The Sacred Summons feat requires the " Aura class feature". I am I correct that this means no one but Clerics (ie Not Oracles) ca use it.

Part II. Would the Sacred Summons feat (and Augment Summoning, etc) work with a staff that casts Summon Monster X? I don't think so, I think that only the save DC's are affected by the user's feats, but I figure I will check...


Pearl of Power? Why do you say that - as I read it, it's another version of a metamagic rod.

Using a focus is a free action and the Cauldron is called out as a focus. What you get is Player A casts Summon Monster V, and gets the initial spell (1 monster from Summon Monster V/1d3 Monsters from Summon Monster IV/1d4+1 Monsters from Summon Monster III) and 1d3 Monsters from Summon Monster IV...

Yes, only works for Summon Monster/Nature's Ally spells and only once per day, but it works for levels 1-9, and Twin Spell was a +4 level metamagic. A greater quicken rod (+4 level metamagic, works levels 1-9, 3 times a day) costs 170,000gp... Divide by 3 to equalize the uses per day, and you're left with 56666gp. Twelve and half times the cost of the Cauldron (4500gp). Is it really that much of a limitation that it only applies to Summmon Monster Spells?


Does anyone else find this thing incredibly powerful?

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Cauldro n%20of%20Overwhelming%20Allies

It's Twin spell for a Summon Monster spell (any level), once per day...For 4500 GP?!? Twin spell is almost as potent as quicken...


Suggestion: Armor up. Either Silken Ceremonial Armor, or a Haramaki, and/or an Armored Kilt.
Haramaki and Armored Kilt is 11 lbs and 23 gp. You have 20 Gp left over, and you don't have enough elven trail rations for the bonus to kick in (you need to eat them for a week straight), so you may as well go with regular trail rations, and save another 7gp and 5 sp...which will buy you the Haramaki and Armored Kilt.
Also, you probably want to add some clothes to your equipment list...or maybe your wizards got an exhibitionist streak...
As soon as the party finds some money, you will want to buy some more snivel gear though (a TENT); a rainy fall night at 2oC would likely kill your ass right now... T
here is a lot of useful mundane stuff you could buy. Eg. the masterwork backpack above, a missile weapon, etc... And a reliable pack mule to carry all a low-level parties crud.


strayshift wrote:
Utterly disagree. Nice to read though that someone can see several hundred miles over two mountain ranges. Shall simply cease to argue against stupidity.

Seconded.

Alzrius, if you really want Middle Earth Geography lessons, ie how far it is to Rivendell from the attempt at Caradhras pass,

http://lotrproject.com/map/#zoom=3&lat=-1100&lon=1500&layers=BT


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Alzrius wrote:


Let's go over this in closer detail.

Let's not and go back to the original quote:

"I have written Gandalf is here in signs that all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin.".
It is not a line of sight issue with the firelight; the Anduin is on the other side of the Mountains of Moria... which they are well below in elevation, having not attempted the pass yet.


What levels are you working at? Core only, I think your group needs a) a stealthy type b) a trap finder c) a ranged combatant. They could also stand d)another meat-shield and e) a skill character.

My suggestion, core only would be :

Ranger X/Rogue 3 or 4... (4 gets you an extra rogue talent, but sacrifices a ranger level. Both get you trap-finding, 2d6 of sneak, and evasion...)


ShadowcatX wrote:
pad300 wrote:
Actually, you don't have an ACP in Celestial Armor. Last sentence of the description: "It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day". As a bard you have light armor proficiency.

Actually, he does have ACP in light armor, rather or not you have the proficiency matters in what the ACP applies to, not rather or not you have one.

No, Celestial and Mithral are 2 different things. Mithral counts as 1 level lighter for everything but proficiency: "This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor". Celestial Armor on the other hand, does not have that qualifier; it counts as light armor for proficiency.


Razell wrote:

So, the differences in a nutshell:

Mithril Shirt: No Spell Fail, 0 ACP, +6 Dex, +4 AC
Mithril Kikko: 10% Spell Fail, 0 ACP, +6 Dex, +5 AC
Celestial Armor: No Spell Fail, -2 ACP, +8 Dex, +6 AC
(Note that Celestial comes as +3, Light Chainmail, and may be increased to +5)

Am I worrying about the -2 ACP too much? Celestial the hands down choice?

Actually, you don't have an ACP in Celestial Armor. Last sentence of the description: "It is considered light armor and allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day". As a bard you have light armor proficiency.

For futher entertainment, I believe that you can in fact change the armor type from Chainmail; one of the AP's introduced Celestial Plate Armor. Presumably therefore you could have a Celestial Breastplate... which would further improve you max dex...


Do you know what the player is proposing to get by way of eldritch heritages (ie what bloodline and the powers he will get) and added spells (expanded arcana)?

As a guideline, a wish can give you at least 25000gp in value... (the material component cost).

Expanded Arcana gives a 13th level sorcerer 1 6th or 2 5th or less level spells...If you got that using Pages of Spell Knowledge, that would 36000 for the 6th level spells (2 fifth level spells would be 50000). So expanded Arcana might be a bit much for one wish, but it's not hugely out of scale.

It should also be noted that there are items out there that grant feats. For examples, consider Ioun Stones: Dark Blue Rhomboid = Alertness = 10000 gp; Opalescent White Pyramid = Weapon Proficiency = 10000 gp; Scarlet and Green Cabochon = Endurance = 10000 gp.

I will note that all feats are not equal, and you can steal a Ioun Stone or Page of Spell Knowledge. You cannot steal a feat... but nor can you sell one.

I would be tempted to give the player the pages of spell knowledge and/or some sort of custom magic item, on the theory that if the results are a problem in game, you (as DM) can get rid of the item, through theft or destruction.


Alzrius wrote:


pad300, you make some good points, but let's draw some distinctions.

The best way to figure out a character's "level" in Pathfinder (or any other d20 System game) is to look at what they do (and, to an extent, what they cannot do) and put that at the lowest level of power that can be "reasonably" accomplished in the game system. (For more on this topic, I recommend this excellent essay.)

I put "reasonably" in quotation marks because there are always going to be some points of debate, largely because...

Your argument seems a might circular.

"That still wouldn’t be that much to go on – except that we’ve got a reasonable conversion for Gandalf to refer to."

Gandalf isn't that impressive, because what he does isn't that impressive, so if Gandalf kills a balrog 1 on 1, well then killing a balrog isn't that impressive, so Gandalf's not that impressive...

I will note that said Balrog, without minions, chased an entire dwarven nation out of Moria.

Wikipedia wrote:

The Dwarves attempted to fight the Balrog, but its power was far too great. Despite their efforts to hold Khazad-dûm against it, King Náin and many other Dwarves were killed and the survivors were forced to flee. This disaster also reached the Silvan Elves of Lórien, many of whom also fled the "Nameless Terror"[44] (it was not recognized as a Balrog at the time). The Elves called the place Moria, the "Black Pit"[46] or "Black Chasm"[47] (though the name Moria also appears on the West Gate of Moria, constructed thousands of years earlier in the Second Age).

For another 500 years, Moria was left to the Balrog; though according to Unfinished Tales, Orcs crept in almost immediately after the Dwarves were driven out

What you just described gets settled by a patrol of 30 odd dwarven warriors with heavy crossbows, armor piercing quarrels and two-handed axes... Or if worst comes to worst, you trap it with a deliberate cave-in or two.

You might also remember said dwarven nation was led by Durin, reincarnation of the legendary dwarven leader, and his line was known to hold a major artifact (one of the seven dwarven rings).

For another comparison, consider that Sauron, the 2nd biggest bad-guy in Tolkien's mythos, was another fallen Maiar: "In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë".

No, I think balrogs, and Durin's Bane in particular, were pretty big bad-asses.


LazarX wrote:
pad300 wrote:
I'm of the opinion that Gandalf is not a seventh level character. He gets into a one on one fight with a Balrog (which is a fallen Maiar in Tolkein's mythos - anything from an angel to a demigod, but definitely a being who existed before the creation of the world...). He then shatters the bridge they are both standing on, falls god knows how far into deep, cold water (deep and cold enough to extinguish the balrog's flame). He then pursues said Balrog from the deepest hole in the mountains heart to the peak, fighting all the way. Whereupon the Balrog re-ignites it's flame, but he beats it to death anyways...This does not strike me as the actions of a seventh level anything...
You have to keep to consistency on both ends. If Gandalf was only a seventh level magic-user, it also follows that the Balrog himself is something of much lower CR than the Monster Manual Demon Type 6. For that matter the Balrog in question is arguably a creature of much lower CR than Smaug, whom Gandalf refused to face himself and recruited others to do so.

Yes, let's keep consistency. The Balrog is a Maiar . Fallen but a Maiar. A being of DIVINE origin that in Tolkien's mythos participated in the creation of the world. As I said, winning a fight with a Balrog is a big deal.


I'm of the opinion that Gandalf is not a seventh level character. He gets into a one on one fight with a Balrog (which is a fallen Maiar in Tolkein's mythos - anything from an angel to a demigod, but definitely a being who existed before the creation of the world...). He then shatters the bridge they are both standing on, falls god knows how far into deep, cold water (deep and cold enough to extinguish the balrog's flame). He then pursues said Balrog from the deepest hole in the mountains heart to the peak, fighting all the way. Whereupon the Balrog re-ignites it's flame, but he beats it to death anyways...This does not strike me as the actions of a seventh level anything...


Ok, so they introduced the Ghoran. race in Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Bestiary. Great, cool, all that...Plant guys. They left some stuff out though:

Do Ghoran's have age categories? If so, what are they?

Does the Ghorus Seed ability get rid of things like a) diseases, b) long term poisons c) old age d) crippling injuries/lost limbs ?

Regarding "exposure to sunlight" are there magical lights that could replace sunlight (eg a Sunbeam spell... a Daylight spell ... a Sunburst spell).


mplindustries wrote:

Almost every high level enemy has blindsight, blindsense, devil's sight, true sight, or tremorsense. It's a shame it only counters some of the normally uncounterable senses.

Actually, the real shame is that it's not a built in function of a high level stealth skill.

As a note, stealth, the mundane skill works just fine on True Sight. It also works fine on Devil' Sight (actually See In Darkness (SU), which is unlimited range Darkvision - even in magical darkness), provided of course, that you have something more than darkness for cover... (or Hide in Plain Sight of course).


Ascalaphus wrote:

Okay, strict rules then;

Assuming sufficient castings of BT available (let's say a fully charged wand)...

1) How many times can you cast BT on a given corpse? Does the blood run out eventually?

2) Does the condition of the corpse matter? (Barbarian with a chainsaw lurking in the background...)

3) How about the corpse of a skeletal champion wizard?

4) How about a naga? How many pints in a naga? A giant?

5) Is the Restore Corpse spell any use here, refilling blood? Will it work on the skeletal champion?

And also...

a) You consume 1 pint of blood... as a standard action? (Fratboys in the background chanting "chug! chug! chug!")

b) Is there a limit on how much blood you can consume before getting sick?

c) Is it okay to barf up the blood afterwards?

d) Is it wise to use Purify Food & Drink to avoid blood-borne diseases and poisons? Or would PF&D destroy the "contents"?

e) How do you know which spells you can select from?

---

I like this spell, but I doubt it's ready for "strict RAW" yet, I think it's a bit too weird and not thoroughly written enough for that...

Heck, to add to the list - what about a gentle repose spell? Does it preserve enough that time spent under it does not count for Blood Transcription's 24hr time limit?


One thing you have done in your campaign set up is give fighters 4 skill points. This is infringing on the ranger "game space", as it makes fighters much more versatile (doubling their skills available).

Also, don't underestimate the animal companion (hunters bond). In the level range you are looking at, with the Boon Companion feat, Action economy alone makes it a win; add the hit sponge effect and flanking... Heck just trained animals can be really effective. The 2nd level ranger who shows up with 3 trained war-hounds, each with studded leather barding, just wins a lot of fights.


White haired witch changes the witch focus to melee/close support/grappling vs. hex use...


A wizard can cast Dominate Monster as a 9th level spell. A summoner can also cast Dominate Monster as a 6th level spell.

A Wizard/Pathfinder Savant can use the Esoteric Magic ability to cast Dominate Monster from one of his 6th level spell slots - potentially 5 or so character levels earlier than he could normally cast it...


Cpt.Caine wrote:
Torger Miltenberger wrote:


If you'll read the feedback thus far you'll note that the bulk of it isn't complaining about a new high water mark in damage potential, it's complaining about conjuration stealing evocations thunder (or in this case snow).

- Torger

I did read the thread before I replied, but my response was to the OP, not the overall feedback prior to my post. The OP's initial premise was that 3.5 Orbs were broken, thus Snowball was broken. Neither is true.

The rest of the feedback has nothing to do with the OP, and is actually off-topic feedback. This thread was not started to discuss the balance between Evocation and Conjuration.

Just to knock this argument on the head, I, the OP, said:

"I have read several people's opinion on here that the "orb" spells were broken in 3.5", I am personally not at all sure that the 3.5 orb spells were broken. At five pages of discussion though, it is an issue.


James Jacobs wrote:
John Woodford wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
John Woodford wrote:


It's a little obscure these days, but IIRC Lohiro, the Archmage in Barbara Hambly's Darwath Trilogy, used a polearm. ** spoiler omitted **
Huh... I'd say VERY obscure, since I don't recognize any of the capitalized words you just listed except "Archmage" and "Trilogy."
That says something interesting about the way the fantasy market has split; she's been writing for over thirty years and has a couple dozen fantasy novels to her name, but most of what she's written in the last ten years have been mysteries. So she's fallen off of the radar as far as non-urban fantasy goes (she's had a couple of urban fantasies in the past few years). Younger readers, and people who weren't reading a lot of fantasy before the mid-90's, are a lot less likely to have heard her name.
Well, add to that the fact that I actually haven't read a LOT of fantasy. Most of my reading has been in the horror genre, and when I do delve into fantasy, I tend to either go modern (George Martin) or pulp. With the exception of Raymond Feist and D&D novels, I didn't read a lot of fantasy novels in the 80s and 90s.

1) Burn the HERETIC!!! You've missed a bunch of good stuff man. You might want to put Barbara (and a few others - Glen Cook anyone?) on your to read list.

2) Regarding the proficiency thing - weren't the runelords all major Ioun Stone freaks (including Implantation if Karzoug is any guide). What do the words opalescent white pyramid say to you?


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite.

OK, I have read several people's opinion on here that the "orb" spells were broken in 3.5. With that in mind, please consider the new spell introduced in "People of the North":

Snowball
Conjuration (creation) [Cold, Water]
Level: Dr1, Ma1, S/W1, Su1, Wi1
CT: 1 Standard Action
Comp: V,S
RNG: Close
Effect: One ball of ice and snow
D: Instantaneous
ST: Fort Partial (see text)
SR: No
You conjure a ball of packed ice and snow that you can throw at a single target as a ranged touch attack. The snowball deals 1d6 points of cold damage per caster level (max 5d6) on a successful hit, and the target must make a successful Fortitude saving throw or be staggered for 1 round.

Note that this is better in many ways than the classic orb spells. 1) It's available to more casters (Druids and Witches stick out). 2) Intensify metamagic makes the full 10d6 is available from a 2nd level spell slot...rather than 4th. 3) It still has a secondary effect (staggering), even from the 1st level slot (unlike the lesser orb spells).


Nicos wrote:

So, a mild power creep seems to be the consensus afther a couple of answers.

Anoother question for anyone interested, besides Summoners what are the most clearl example of power creep afther the CRB?, you know those option that are just plain better than anything in core.

To start off, the spells Icy Prison and Suffocation are clearly better save or lose spells than anything in core (at that level, of course).


Assuming playing in Golarion, there is an actual not painful way. I am surprised that it has not been mentioned in this thread yet :

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o2tl&page=2?Guide-to-the-Arcane-Trickster# 61

pad300 wrote:

Assuming your AT is playing in Golarion, there is a strong trick you have missed.

The Inner Sea Magic book presents assorted magic schools, guilds, etc as associations that a player can participate in, gaining fame and reward points... In particular, it presents the Eclectic Training (5 fame) and Esoteric Training (35 fame) rewards for guild membership, see pg. 22.

Eclectic Training (5 Fame) : Guilds often require members to master and train in different subjects. When your fame score in a guild reaches 5, choose one spellcasting class you have at least 1 level in - you increase your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by +1, to a maximum caster level equal to your total Hit Dice. Single-classed spellcasters should still pick a class to which this bonus applies, since this bonus is retroactive.

Esoteric Training (35 fame) : The bonus to caster level you gain from Eclectic Training increases to +3 (but is still limited by your total Hit Dice). You may select a second spellcasting class to gain a +1 bonus to effective class level.

These 2 rewards mean that you can play at AT with zero casting levels lost throughout their progression if you plot your career arc correctly:

Casting Class 1
Casting Class 2 ( Achieve 5 Fame & associated Eclectic Training - pick Primary Class)
Rogue Class 1 (note, you are not behind a level in primary class - eclectic training)
Casting Class 3
Casting Class 4
Rogue Class 2 (Achieve 35 Fame & associated Esoteric Training - Casting Class +3 Levels, Secondary Class +1 Levels)
Rogue Class 3
Arcane Trickster 1-10

With this career arc, you are never behind a primary caster in your chosen discipline...

PS as a follow up note, if that "rogue" class is a vivisectionist alchemist, you can even use that secondary benefit from Esoteric Training.


The average member of the tribe is a 6th+ alchemist (fly extract)? Can your gm explain why the little bastards haven't conquered a rather large swath (or exterminated each other...)?


No setting things on fire outside the fireplace. Uncontrolled fire BAD!

No calling outsiders w/o informing & discussing with all party members before hand.

No criminal activity w/o informing & discussing with all party members before hand.

No magical experimentation w/o informing & discussing with all party members before hand.

Anything not labelled in the pantry is fair game...


As a further suggestion, I would simplify the harvesting of reliquary levels mechanic to be just the former CR of the target corpse. With your current rules, consider the case of Vormaloth (Ancient Red Dragon, Sorceror 3 = CR 22). Who's vestige is currently worth 3 reliquary levels; "a number of reliquary levels equal to the character level (if the corpse possessed levels in a standard class) or the challenge rating of the corpse (if it possessed racial Hit Dice or levels in an NPC class)". Making it purely CR : "a number of reliquary levels equal to the challenge rating of the corpse ", simplifies the mechanic.

You could further extend this to the 1/2 the CL HD limit; "A creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the binder’s character level cannot provide a suitable vestige." would become "A creature that has fewer CR than half the binder’s character level cannot provide a suitable vestige." There are a number of low CR, high HD creatures, which could be abused with the current phrasing.


For Harvest Vestige : Corpses are objects. They don't normally get will saves. As such, what is the will save modifier for a corpse? I'm guessing you mean the former critters will save, but clarification would be good...Also this affects Speak with Dead, what about Raise Dead/Resurrection effects, Clone, Create Undead, etc...

Also, you haven't followed this up: "a binder can also add spells found in another binder's grimoire to her own (see Magic)." I'm guessing that you mean to use the standard wizard version.

I'd also be slightly concerned about the power level of the effects - just on paper figuring, I would be hard pressed to call the trade offs from a normal witch worth it...and keeping your vestige count up is going to be very challenging... the most potent effect available is free quicken, but at 20 harvested corpses a shot, that's going to be very expensive. Meanwhile, the loss of a familiars action economy advantage is actually quite significant.


1 Scroll of Planar Ally

Planar Ally = up to 12 HD = Marid = 1 Wish/year...

Why a Marid? I can see a genie owing a god a favor - planar politics can lead to strange bedfellows.

An Efreet could give them 3 wishes.

Note that with a scroll of planar ally, the material component costs (but not the payment to the ally) are already covered - that's why they cost so much relative to other scrolls... (see table 7-38 of UE, pg 381. A scroll of planar Ally costs 2900 gp, regular 6th level spells cost 1650 gp. The material component costs are 1250gp...). 3 Wishes should run them about 80K in other treasure...


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A potion of Grace works fine - Emulate a good alignment with UMD

"Emulate an Alignment: Some magic items have positive or negative effects based on the user's alignment. Use Magic Device lets you use these items as if you were of an alignment of your choice. You can emulate only one alignment at a time."

It's a DC 30 check, the dragon has a +38...

If you are using the anti-magic area suggestion, barding could be very good fun... Even if you are not, a Haramaki/Silk Ceremonial Armor barding + a mithril buckler should allow an AC boost of +12 or so...without any spell failure.

I would also purchase a Mnemonic Robe, which would allow the dragon to use texts of wizards spells to his advantage - Simulacrum is way punchy, guards and wards, permanency (for personal spells) are all very punchy...
Also, Form of the Dragon III (Silver) gives you Cold Immunity, and hugely enhanced physical capabilities (why, I don't know...). (Further, add mind blank, and "ally" with the PC's to take down the (Simulacrum) Red Dragon 2 peaks over is really playing dirty - a Filter of Glibness for maximum believability).

Further, re-arrange his feat list to include Leadership - Minions are fun! A cleric cohort on your back can be even funner!


Long term buffs would be musts, assuming limited/no magic gear. You might want to save a feat slot for extend. Things like False Life (and possibly replace a higher levels w/ Greater False Life), Eagle's Splendor, Mage Armor ... At higher levels, you would research customized buff spells (eg Superior Eagle's Splendor: A 4th level spell that gives a +6 to Cha for 1 hr/caster level).

Having a large number of spells known would allow room for the Out of Combat power chains : Planar Binding (and associated spells), Simalcrum, Fabricate, etc.


For literary accuracy (although not necessarily game balance), I would suggest that the Dunedain get a +2 to Con and as Zerzix suggests, a significantly greater lifespan (eg use the phb dwarf age tables for middle age and beyond).

I would also be tempted to lump the Southrons and Easterlings in with common men in terms of in-game ability scores, etc. There isn't a literary precedent for them being much other than normal men (of differing cultures).


Effect would suck hard if it was 1d4-3...


I think we are having definition problems.

pathfinder wiki wrote:
The Mwangi Expanse (pronounced MWAN-gi)[1] is the catch-all term given to the wild interior of the continent of Garund. It is bordered to the north by the lands of Rahadoum, Thuvia and Osirion, to the east is Katapesh, Nex, Alkenstar and Geb, and to the west by the Sodden Lands, Shackles, and the colony of Sargava. The region extends southwards beyond the scope of current maps.

The former (now independent) Chelaxian colony is Sargava. You can buy land in Sargava, sure. Undeveloped jungle is probably yours for promises (to develop it, to control problems coming from it, to pay taxes, etc.). Something else depends a lot on what the land is (farms vs mithe nes vs urban vs etc.) and where it is - the closer to "civilization" (and protection of the sargavan government), the more expensive the land


Is there any authority to buy the land from? The Mwangi Expanse is "the wild interior of the continent of Garund" ( http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Mwangi_Expanse ) Who are they supposed to be paying? IMO, it would be more of a can you protect/control whatever area you have claimed...

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