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Simon Kort wrote:
Thank you for all your hard work.
"...have we drifted into a Paranoia game?"
ok, a suggestion on "Inter-Table Interaction" (a term I think I just coined).
How about a "puzzle" challenge that you only get 3 of the required 4 parts for, and you get "an extra piece" that actually belongs to the table beside you. Now you arrange the 3 parts to your "mcguffen" and find you are a piece short - and you have a extra bit... how long does it take you to figure out that someone else has your missing piece? How much longer does it take for you to figure you have someone else's? (and here's the kicker) How long does it take you to realize that you need to take your extra piece to another table. NOT just get your "mcguffen" put together, but "Cooperate".
Explore! - Find your cache of broken mcguffen pieces.
Report! - "Hay, we found most of a Blue McGuffen! and this extra Red piece "
Cooperate! - "Hay, who needs a Red McGuffen piece?"
Some time ago, I was running the low tier table at a multi-table special(APL 1-2), when the adventure got to the major Challenge (Required a Disable Device DC60?!!! - everyone was supposed to find a way around this - flight or climbing or something) and the "big guy" at my table (a 3rd level Dwarven druid that got dropped in to fill the table up to 4 PCs) announces he's going up and using a Boon that he has just gotten. It allows his PC to succeed at "any one skill check the PC is untrained in" .... and he says he's going to open the gate.
I read the Boon. I called the head judge. Who looked it over and went to tell the high level table that they saw a Dwarven druid walk up and push the gate open. From the Tier 1-2 table. It was one of the high lights of the night for my table. And we still tell that story...
I just ran a 3-4 table of Cosmic Captive, and at one point the PCs are being attacked by XXXX. As the blurb ends I set up maybe 8 or 9 pawns and the Mook in the front yells "Follow me!" and charges into combat, being followed by a mass of enemies - and I say - "and a stray fireball from the that table" pointing at what everyone knows is the 10-11 table beside us "erupts at the edge of your battle, incinerating" drag most of the pawns off the map "a bunch of the enemy!". Heck, for a 10 second toss into the game - it added a "feel" of being part of a larger event.
I want to thank everyone in this thread. I recently ruled this wrong in a PFS game I was judging at CogCon (not giving an animal companion the Inspire bonus) when I should have allowed it.
Now I need to see if I can track down at least SOME of the players that were at that table and tell them the correct way to do it.
Casting my vote to start with First Steps 1.
First Steps 1, then Wounded Wisp, then Confirmation.
And I really hate to agree with BNW... even when I think he's right. Gah! now I have to go take a shower again...
I can still remember my sisters first character. She was the very strong not so bright 1/2 orc and after her a couple games had saved enough money to by a Comp. Long Bow, for her high strength. We told her how to cost in Master Work, etc. ...
SO, in the middle of her first game after buying her new bow, combat starts at range and she's ready! She whips out her bow, and waits her turn.... It looks like it's going to be a long shooting match and someone asks if she has 2 quivers of arrows. Her expression was priceless..."you have to buy arrows too?!"
The funniest part was that she, herself, had actually shot competitively in Archery Competitions.
sigh... ok, let's take a look at these.
0-14 The Many Fortunes of Grandmaster Torch:
- At this time Torch doesn't work for or with the Pathfinder Society. In fact, most of his experience with them has been when PCs show up at his home (while he is "in a bath") and demand he provide them with information (what he sells to make a living) for free. You know, "Cause we're Pathfinders!" (0-01 Silent Tide.) Behind the scenes Torch is using the PFS, as he would anyone who comes along. Much like the PFS agents do. Really burns when someone uses our own tactics on us.
1-45 Delirium's Tangle:
Again - At this time Torch doesn't work for or with the Pathfinder Society. Well, except for that "Hay, you need to give us this for FREE 'cause we're PATHFINDERS!" bit we keep pulling on him. Yeah, another chance for the "little guy" to screw the big company. GM Torch - Independent Information Broker. PFS - "Information? Hay - it's our's."
4-23 Rivalry's End:
SO - "know you can't just walk away from the Organization - it's not like you can just retire...". How the heck did the 10 get him to work for them anyway? I figure he was being blackmailed in some way, and once he got enough on the 10 to quit he did. And what's the last thing he says to the Agents?
and the Shadow Lodge
"And especially to you, who enabled me to get away from the 10."
and he disappears (while many PCs try to kill him, 'cause, you know, "this isn't an organization you can just quit. We're not going to let you just walk away."
What other Faction lead has actually said "Thanks"?
Destiny of the Sands I and III:
After leaving the PFS, and running away to the edge of the world (well, really far from the "City at the Center of the World" anyway), while trying to put his business back together - who shows up? You guessed it. PFS agents. And what do they want? Why, free information again. Yeah, like that's going to happen. "Wait, if he wont give it to you free, remind him of XXX. He'll cough it up then." Yeah - blackmail him again...Seemed to work, sort of. Great organization we work for right?
I do notice there is no scenarios mentioned between years 1 and end of year 4 - during the time GM Torch actually worked as part of the PFS and you know, appeared in every scenario on the Faction Mission sheets if not in the scenario. You know, the Faction Missions that said things like "Be careful, this is dangerous".
Tony Lindman wrote:
And I (both in character and OOC) have a hard time understanding this. Clearly we have not encountered the same NPC.
Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
Ok, I'm not going to duck responsibility for this. And I'm not just parroting other peoples words here, they are all myna. No way am I going to chicken out of this challenge, no matter how fowl this discussion gets...
you help organize a game so that your Alchemist/Wizard can swap spells with another players Wizard. As the rest of the PCs trickle in this seems to set the theme for the night.
Yeah - your Alchemist (mind chemist) is the front liner, and the Healer... and the trapsmith... But heck, we've got arcane caster covered! Good thing we didn't face Golems!
Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
Well, we wouldn't want to be robin you of your bird puns.... It might be more than we could swallow.
a minute or two with a prestidigitation will clean up most issues with dirt/bloodstains/horsesweat - and then combined with Masterwork armor/items of clothing (all Magic items are masterwork) should give someone a step in the right direction.
Then again, I actually met Sam Walton many years ago. He looked like a well dressed farmer... and drove an older pickup truck.
floating this old comment of mine to the top of the discussion.
"the judge is in 'control' of circumstance bonuses" - and only they can allow them added in or not - depending on circumstances. So, really, when the judge asks for what the PC got on a skill check, we should be telling him the result without the bonus for masterword tools added in. And then add that we have a tool that gives a +2 Circumstance bonus.
Judge "Knowledge (Rules)?"
Murdock Mudeater wrote:
This... Has my interest. I may just steal this idea if you don't mind. I may combine it with other things.
The funniest part was that I hadn't picked up on the fact that they were all immune until after we had played several games where some of them were bitten. And we were tracking who had been bitten, and when. Then we resolved all the "possible infections" - rushing to get everyone "cured" before the next full moon... and the day after that I remembered everyones race. So next game I had the "wolf hunter" encounter, and dropped the "you lot are immune" note - whereupon several of the players realized it to. I could see that "light bulb of realization" flash above each of their heads. It was glorious!
I had a group of PCs tangle with Werewolves and we did the "extreme worry" bit while the PCs burned a bunch of resources and jumped thru hoops to be sure not to contract Lycanthropy ... then in the next meeting they encountered someone who said "Well, I don't need to worry about you lot being Werewolves" (they were in an area known to be infested). They responded puzzled. "Well - only humanoids can catch it, and you lot are 2 Aasimar, 2 Tieflings and a Sylph. Yep, nice to see an entire group who are immune to this scourge." Yeah, later that NPC led them into a trap - the NPC was human, and infected. ;-)
I've really tried to stay away from this thread... but sometimes we miss our will saves (likely because we can't Take 10 on Saving throws)
Repeating an old post of mine...
"I am very much in the Take 10 camp. I even "have the T-Shirt".
And I try real hard not to tell other people how to play this game of ours. When I am the judge at a table and it comes to a skill check that the players need to make - I might even say "give me a XXX check - roll or take ten, what do you get?" This is the closest I come just assuming that the PCs take 10 and narrating/telling the players the result. Even when I know that the DC is such that the PC can make it on a roll of 2 ... even when I realize that it is going to slow the game down, make it harder for the PCs, even when I KNOW it will be less fun... I let the players chose. Why do I do this? Because, you know, I'm not the player. If they want to roll the dice that's fine - perhaps they find it more fun that way.
I don't. But then, I did say "when I am the judge at a table..."
When I'm the player - and it's my choice - please don't take that away from me because you think it will be more fun. Let me play my character... the way I have fun with it.
I could try to explain why I find rolling the dice cheapens the "fun", reducing a game of imagination and skill to one of randomness and chance. But you know, if you don't see it, I don't want to force you to play it my way....
Why do people insist that I can't be having fun - when they see me doing it over and over again? Why do they insist that I "do it right - the fun way"?
sorry - this is a hot button for me, and sometimes I get carried away. I'll try to go back to lurking again..."
As the DM, now I can just require the players to take 10 when I "want to control the pacing and tension" of the game. Outside of combat, when the PCs aren't threatened by anything I personally would consider dangerous...I really CAN force people to play it my way... Knowledge skill check? Just ask them what their bonus is and add 10 - that's what they know. No need to have everyone roll dice and wait while they all shout different numbers at me, only to have the guy who always rolls 17+ on his "special" dice no one else can read get the high roll again. "Which of you has the best Knowledge Nobility? And what's the bonus? +4? To bad, a 15 would have gotten you more info..." yeah, I can feel the drama now, can't you?
Sorry, I'm not sure if I'm up to doing that though... I hate telling someone else how to play the game "right"...
Disk Elemental wrote:
It also makes my hideous laughter spells... both more and less effective. Most normal targets (humanoids) get a +4 on the save. But I guess it is more effective when I use it on Elementals or Demons....
Disk Elemental wrote:
a minor difference...
the spell Unholy Blight (and similar ones for Law/Chaos/Evil) actually does more damage to Aasimar/Tieflings....
"The spell deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d8) to a good creature (or 1d6 per caster level, maximum 10d6, to a good outsider) and causes it to be sickened for 1d4 rounds. "
having sucked up one of these when my fellow party members got 4d8 - (average 18HP) and I absorbed 9d6 (31.5HP)... being a Good Tiefling can have it's down sides. ;-)
and my dog named "Phydeaux"...
One of my masterwork sets are fur lined and very stylish. Though I usually refer to them as "Fuzzy Love Cuffs"
four players of 2nd level PCs look down at 4 dead PCs...Player A: "Well - if we all chip in, maybe we can bring Jo back - she had a couple 7th level CRs on her Barbarian."
Player B:"Heck, the gold for this one is only a fraction over 400 - so even if she sells all our stuff she's not going to have enough for a Raise Dead, let alone the Restorations..."
Player C: "Who was it suggested we play this Evergreen anyway?
Player D: "On the bright note - you can only play this with a 2nd level PC once. So this will never happen to us again."
Clearly all the people in the Operating Room clustered around the Brain Surgeon can do that operation - otherwise they couldn't help right?
I think Surgical Assistants are very underpaid.
Jeff Hazuka wrote:
yeah, it's an old guy term. Left over from "Before Season Zero"... lol!
Back from the days when the scenario was called a Mod, and the Chronicle was a Cert.
We should always try to have the option to have an INTRO level game available. Nothing worse than to see all the games offered are Tier 5+... I've even heard the advice given once to "Come in next Saturday - we do our Intro games on the weekend." I pulled out my Evergreen folder and ran First Steps for 3 beginners and a defector from the 5-9 table that day. And submitted the paperwork with my Event number rather than the Shops...
Maybe we should offer some type of reward to a player who "brings a new gamer" with them - say a companion Boon to the First Time player boon... a "Reward" for a recruiter who get's someone to start a XXX-1 PC.
you guys still at it? I've given up on this long ago. I don't think you are likely to convense each other of anything...so at this point you are just wasting time. My advice would be to take a deep breath, and maybe go play some games...move on. You'll be happier. Unless you really get enjoyment out of on-line arguments?
I have worked long and hard to get some players out of their phones and to at least pay attention to the game during the "talky parts" - part of the way I do this is to let them maybe influence the out-come by rolling an "aid another" (or at least to let them think they made the difference), During a "Gather Information" check - "You Aided? Hay Diplomancer, the Barbarian asked if you checked with the Bar-tender of the dockside bar... And when you checked there he told you..." -
Now I get to try to convince the next batch of players that I'm not going to impose a penility to their results - just because they were trying to play the game too. After all, "that's what the last judge did".
After all - "I'm only here for the fights" is a common enough attitude even when I'm granting a measly +2 bonus on a skill check that the Diplomancer often beats by 10 or 12 anyway... And it's totally worth it when the 12 year old running a barbarian get's to brag to her big brother that he "couldn't have done it without my telling you to check with the Bartender!"
Hay, as long as we are penalizing Diplomacy for failed "aid another" checks - how about penalizing Combat rolls too? When the Diplomancer fails to boost the Attack roll with an "aid another" check in combat, shouldn't he give his ally a "-1" to hit or something?
spell Full Pouch:
Level: alchemist 2, bard 2, druid 2, inquisitor 3, occultist 3, ranger 3, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Components: V, S, M (alchemical reagents or herbs worth 1 gp)
Targets: 1 object touched
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (object)
Spell Resistance: no
You cast this spell as you draw out a consumable alchemical item to use. The object must be an alchemical item, but not a dose of disease, a poison, a magic potion, or another type of consumable item. The item divides itself into two nearly identical copies and the newly separated one is delivered into your hand. The new item functions as the original in all ways except the copied item suffers a slight reduction in quality. Saves against the new alchemical item's affects use the original item's save DC or the save DC of this spell, whichever is higher.
Ok,... How does this spell work? Am I missing something here? Duration is instantaneous, so it creates a duplicate of an Alchemical item. Often with a better save.
So... Say Al the Alchemist wants to use a 2nd level extract of full pouch to create an extra tanglefoot bag. He reaching for his existing 'bag and ... Casts this extract? Creating a copy which he then puts on the table in front of him. Does he have two tanglefoot bags? One with a different DC?
Can he do this again? And again (if he has the 2nd level extracts to do this)? Until he has a dozen tanglefoot bags on the table?
I look and see that there are two things offered that I have played. So I don't bother to show up.
as a result, the 4 "walk-ins" that would have loved to play an evergreen, that I could run in my sleep, don't form a table and maybe don't get seated.
there are whispers from the shadows of one man who got out. He was a Grand Master...
pH unbalanced wrote:
nah, the PLAYER is lawful, the character... might not even be literate.
Let's look at this another way, would you be if someone sat down at the table then pulled out a book explaining that since their character is not very effective they are just going to catch up on some reading?
about the same as when the player is in a cell phone and is only "in game" to roll a couple dice and shout numbers at the judge...
oh, I don't know. To make any progress with this "issue", I think first we need to define what "excessive builds" are. And in what instance they are "excessive". And decide if they are really a problem - realizing what is excessive in one situation is kind of useless in another.
I played a game last night at Tier 1-2. We had 5 players.
The 4/5 PC... very much needs to be audited. (The judge talked to the VC after the game - so hopefully the "problem child" will be addressed privately, before he walk into another game, in a less confrontational setting, and get some helpful direction about playing by the rules). This guy stated that he had two +2 equivalent magic weapons, as well as other equipment ("I saved my loot to be able to afford them), and relied on Potion of CLW for healing (that he just never seemed to track during the game) and... goodness, to many issues to go over here. But clearly "excessive"
But you know what? The level 4/5 was pretty close to being useless the entire scenario. And worse yet, seemed to detract from the fun of the game - by being useless. The guy was designed to do one thing - melee combat. And the scenario was for the most part RP. And the player had no idea of how to, and appeared to have no desire to, role play. He wanted to discuss how to write a scenario, and ideas for his home game, and ... so many other things that did not relate to the current adventure or even PFS... He was even kind of "extra" in the final fight. It took place in a "restricted movement" area where the lower level PCs carried the fighting to the BBE, (the "Combat Machine" did get the last attack on the BBE... but the 1st level PC actually delayed his attack that likely would have dropped the BBE so that the 5th level would get to take one attack in the combat. Yeah, the 1st level was modifying his play to include the "excessive build" guy - you know, to include him in the game. Even then the judge had to stop play to figure out how the E.B. guy was +12 on his attacks (two weapon fighting, but with his roll he needed a +12 to get that hit)... Yeah, it was during this melee round (the last as the game was ending) that he announced he was actually 5th level (he needed a BAB of +5 to get his numbers to come out close....). (I didn't get the particulars on the attacks - by this time I was trying to ignore the guy as much as possible.)
So... which of the PCs were "Excessive"?
Or the 4/5th level guy with way more gear than he could afford?
Jason Wu wrote:
I think you pegged it.
This is a player problem that the OP is suggesting a rule fix for. It would not have the results he intends...
IMHO (the following is just my OPINION - feel free to skip it) we CAN'T fix this with game rules. Not effectively. We can't as game designers or organizers or even as judges at the table "fix" the way people act.
But you know what? We as players can, and in fact always have. If a player is a real pain to play with - we don't play with him. It's the old "Playground rules." In time he fixes his problem (whatever it is), or he goes and plays Pokémon-Go or something (not meaning to imply Pokémon-Go players are less that fine people - just picking a random other part of the hobby).
It's maybe not real nice when it happens, it might not be pretty, ... and when I encounter it I may out of the kindness of my heart try to "fix the problem" (you know, TALK to the problem - "hey guy, don't cheat on dice rolls - yeah, we can all tell..." or "hey lady, how about toning it down a little and letting the Barbarian get in a couple swings too".). But I don't have to fix it. And I don't expect that something/someone else, some rule/"authority figure" will fix it, or even "control it".
People will be people. In the end, life is to short for bad games. Play with friends. Talk to people. And if you want to pull some great gimmick (like doing 150HP damage in a round), don't keep it a secret, share it with your "friends" at the table. Enjoy. Better yet, enjoy it with them. PLAY!
"If it's not fun, don't do it."
sheesh, now I need to go wash my face... sorry about that
Ferious Thune wrote:
I like this post... in case you didn't notice.
Hillis Mallory III wrote:
How would you feel about using the spell Infernal Healing on undead? They don't heal naturally, so by your ruling on the spell and Eidolons ("...don't heal naturally that they cannot benefit from fast healing..."), Undead could not benefit from the Fast Healing granted by the spell. But ... don't some Undead have "fast healing"?
"Fast Healing: A bloody skeleton has fast healing equal to 1 per 2 Hit Dice it possesses (minimum 1)."
Does this mean that you would rule that a bloody skeleton doesn't actually heal damage?
I wish someone would put it in the Guide in understandable language. At this point I don't really care how it is - I'm tired of trying to explain it to new players, only to have to change it (again) the next time I'm running it.
I realize this is silly, but every time I read the title of this thread, I get the image of it being about repairing Clockwork Familiars.
You know, buying tiny gears to replace broken ones...
I could have sworn there was a book boon to sell an item for more than 50% of what you paid for it. Anyone have any idea what it is/where it's from?
The book is "Song of the Serpent" (a Pathfinder Tale):
The boon is called Kalistrade Appraisal: "you have studied the Prophecies of Kalistrade and worked alongside Druman merchants, and learned a few of their negotiating tricks, thus giving you the upper hand in your own mercantile negotiations. This allows you to sell a single item of treasure at 75% value rather than 50% one time. When this boon is used cross it off your Chronicle sheet."
Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
This was the best post in this entire thread. In fact, I think it is the best response I have read on the board in months, if not years.
I would like to buy you a beer if I every get to a Con you are at - but perhaps a brownie would be better? Edge or Center?