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I was going to post a long involved note about this.
But it really isn't worth it.
When I'm at the table with other gamers - I'd really like to be playing a game. That is sort of why I come to the game... to play games.
Paperwork is best done on my time - not cutting into very limited game time.
I'll go away now - I've finished up my hours of prep time spent getting my paperwork in order for today's game, and will be heading out to play this afternoon. I had thought I would spend a few minutes on the boards soaking up some "game thoughts", but instead I seem to have wandered into a discussion on accounting.
edit: spelling and grammer
What follows is just my opinion, and what works for me. For other people it might not work, but for me it very much effects how I play...
(IMHO) This game we play is at it's base a story about a group of specialists who each have a part to play. Each PC should have something he really shines doing - be it haveing the knowledge (local) to tell the rest of the party where the bathroom is, or cutting monsters in half, or talking the witness into giving up that little bit of information, or finding & disarming that Hot Fudge Death trap, or whatever. I try to have my PCs do this, try to have something he really shines at doing.
If you walk up to a table I am at and say, "Lord Chopsalot is a good tank, and he can handle the most knowledge skills." I am not going to pull a front line fighter out, or a Knowledge weenie. I'm going to leave that to you - you picked that role to play. And I don't want to overshadow you, or have to play in your shadow.
(Again, IMHO) If we are trying to "cover all the bases" with our PCs and so fail to do anything well? ... What? If everyone at the table fails to pass a challange that it only takes one of us to pass, we as a group fail in our mission. This is why if I sit at the table I'll ask what else we have there. What other roles people have PCs that they can play at this tier. After we cover that and I pull a PC out, I'll tell everyone what I cover, and my worst failings. ("Hi, I'm Katisha. Call me Kat or Tish, never Kat-tish. I'll handle all the social skills, and I'm pretty useless in combat.") If you respond that you also cover some aspect of whatever Role I picked to play today - maybe I'm change my PC. I try real hard not to have a PC to cover a ROLE that someone else said their PC brought that to that table (be it an ability/skill/trope whatever). I don't want to steal their "moment of greatness". If they want to play that Role in our "Band of Adventurers", I'll be just as happy in a different Role.
I don't care if their PC has a 7 INT or a 20 INT... if they're running "the tank", I expect them to tank. If their PC does that thru smiling at the monsters and offering them Flaming Fudge Death - hey, maybe I'll take notes and build a PC like that too! After all, next table I sit at, maybe we'll need a Tank with Social Skills, and Profession Cook.
Please - just be sure you do your "schtick" the very best you can. If it's the only one you have, I'll understand. (Even if I think it's like the guy who runs a Barbarian who only has one melee weapon...) I don't expect to be able to tell you how to do this - I expect you know your abilities and your PCs abilities much better than me. I am often amazed at how different people build and play their PCs. (so try to understand when I feel the need to ask.) When we sit together... You cover your part, I'll cover mine, and together we are MUCH better than if we both try to cover it all (and spread ourselves to thin). Thank you for your time...
I'll try not to pick a Role you want to play today, and try to cover your PCs weak points. I would like you to return that favor if you can. When I select a Role to play at a table, when I am building the PC before anyone sees it, I am going to try to be the very best I can be at that Role. Nothing would bother me more than failing my team mates at something that I said I had covered... because I let my team down when that happened.
Failing to do my job, because I spread myself out and tried to cover all the Roles in the group? The only thing I can think of worst than that would be to steal another players "moment of greatness" by doing his job better than him... without telling him that I can.
Personal side note:
A side note: The reason I build very "optimized PCs" - specialists - is that I do not want to be the reason your PC dies. Sometimes when PCs die, the player looses everything they have worked for MONTHS or YEARS on. Nothing would bother me more than knowing that that 3rd level guy of yours, that you ran thru 8 scenarios (about 40 hours of table game time, maybe another 40 or 80 hours of hobby time at home tinkering - easily as much as a year of someones gameing) just got tossed in the trash, because I missed the trap, or let the monster past, or failed a knowledge check - basicly, because I failed my job... :(
When I was just starting out, I noticed several players who only ran one PC. (In fact, I know someone who only runs one PC until 12th+ level before starting another. It works for him - it's the way he plays.) I on the other hand started my second PC before my first one reached 2nd level... by the time I had one that was 4th I had three others that were 2rd or 3rd. This ment that the first group of players I played with had PCs that advanced and left me behind... Even though I tended to play more than them. I got a reputation as a person who "didn't like to play high level"... I was always at the lower end of the group in PC level. But it also ment that I had a wide range of PCs to pick from when we went adventuring... Social game in Cheliax? Got a Bard (Cheliaxian) for that... Out in the wilds of Qadira? Got a native Trapsmith for that one. As each of my PCs leveled up, I tried to ensure that another (totally different) PC got in some games to keep up too. By the time I could play Tier 7-11, I had several other PCs that were 5th or 6th level.
Sammy T wrote:
Here's the fix. What Sammy T says above.
Sit down at the table, glance around and see...
4 Human Greatsword Uthden Barbarians all with glassy eyed expressions.
So you pull out your Human Greatsword Uthden Barbarian to play... yeah.
This one is on the players. The judge shouldn't (IMHO can't) fix it for them, they need to learn this. And if one judge "fixes" it... it's just going to keep happening.
If all the players had sat down with Halfling Investigators armed with saps and no healing wands... the fights would have been much harder too. We shouldn't softball because the players are un-prepared. And part of being prepared is "party balance".
What I like to see in a scenario? I like a story line that I can understand (even if it is a simple one - simple ones are great!).
Games with only one or two big fights are great. Much better than the long drawn-out slug fests some scenarios turn into. They don't even have to be the end fight! And everything doesn't have to be solved with a fight!
A story that goes somewhere is often lost in the "little" fights - with the judge trying to ensure that every Iron Cobra fights to the last HP... but who trims the NPC telling us WHY we are even here.
If I was Judging and we are in the boss fight and one of the players asks "who is this guy and why are we trying to kill him again?" then I know I as the judge have failed (perhaps the scenario is at fault, but I should have tried to come up with some sort of a reason to fit the story). It may be a little failure, but it's still a fail.
But you know what? If we are in the boss fight and the Pistol Cheese Whiz drops the BBE and all the mooks in 3.2 seconds before anyone else in the party can do anything... and the Sorcerer goes over to kick the body, because the "evil dude" deserves it, that's a win. Even if the fight was a "Cake Walk"...
wait! I got the reverse of what most people have been posting about!
I encountered a "little kid" in a dungeon crawl a while back. yeah, sure, little kid in a bad place - like how'd you get here kid? Glance around at the rest of the party and they are all buying into this creatures story. But I know, this kids a shapechangeing demon - I read about these things before.
So, first excuse I get I splash her with holy water! Yeah! Holy Water burns more than undead you know! I carry it for extra-planer creaters too. You know, just an "opps! sorry 'bout that!" and... no hsss and burn. Darn it. It wasn't a demon after all.
I just glanced around at the rest of the guys and said... "what? I got a low CHA, so sue me..." and stocked off back to the head of the party.
sometimes you guess wrong, just because you THINK you know what's going on, doen't mean you do. And it can be fun to miss a guess sometimes too...
hay! what's this?!
a thread on the boards where people are nice to each other?
Thanks! I needed this...
and Happy Halloween to you too! (get plenty of candy!)
Not to long ago I got to teach PFS to a Mother/Daughter pair of new players. The daughter (aged 12?13?) wanted to run a Summoner. While helping them with character creation and the mechanics of learning the game, I explained to her that I didn't know the rules for the Summoner and she would need to do most of that work on her own. Basic mechanics I know, CRB stuff, that sort of thing, but the details of the Summoner stuff? that she was going to have to research. So, some time later, I'm running the game in a shop and a different player asks me something about how Eidolons work. I think I was needing to make a call on a Summoner rule... so I glanced at the other table where my 13 year old expert was and asked her. She gave me what she thought was the right answer, and we went with that. (Later I even read up on it, more so I would learn it rather than check up on her answer...).
Her mother told me later that it kind of made her day. It made her hours of reading the rule book totally worth it...
And you know what? I might just start a Summoner (I got a character idea now)... but when I get a chance, I'm going to run my write-up by my 13 year old "expert" - because I trust her rules knowledge.
Old story time...
in a different game system:
Long ago, I had a group of friends that like Call of Cthuhu (still have the same friends too), but I wasn'r really into the Horror genre. But I ran across a really creepy scenario in a gamer magazine. So I offered to run it for my friends. Now, understand, I didn't know the rules for Call, had played it much less than the other players, and in fact didn't even own the rule books (when everyone else had their copy).
And you know what? It was a great game. A lot of fun. Even though I had to pause several times and ask the players "What does this mean?" In fact it was kind of cool to have the players reacting when I'm basicly going "what? what just happened?"
So I know I can run a game when I don't know the rules as well as my players. If I have a question of how something works, I just ask (or if it needs to be spoilered, I hold it till the story is unfolding and say..."Exactly how does Power Attack work again?" or "What's the feat Hot Flaming Death do exactly?" or even "at this point all the players looking in the room take 2d8 sanity loss... why's eveyone looking at me like that?"
I default to trusting my players. Just like I default to trusting my Judge... We're all telling this story together, and that's the way I like it. I think all of my bad experiences at the RPG game table have been when that trust is lost, when the game becomes "Us vs. Them" with the judge vs. players (or players vs. players),
That's why I try to play "Conspiratorial" games and not "Confrontational" games... I like to play "with" not "against". And if the table misses some rule? We all miss it. Maybe after the game we say - "you know, I don't think we did that right..." (and not "you cheated back then...").
yeah, it's like that guy who claims you can take 10 on ... crud.
my heart is just not into it.
I vote with Jiggy here.
We're all friends at the table. Some people just seem to forget that... Let's just play a game together.
Wait, you don't have one? but how does your wife appeal your patriarchal decrees?
David Bowles wrote:
I will have to respectfully disagree. Though this is just opinion...
I think from the "Marriage" stand-point. Anything of yours is also her's. I don't think anyone has the audacity to make this an issue.
heck, I learned this a long time ago.
Anything that's mine is hers... and anything that's hers is hers too.
Michael Brock wrote:
This is one of the few "save the little girl" scenarios where the "little girl" is really just a little girl that needs saving.
And I really like that.
Michael Brock wrote:
we don't have that kind of time! you know how long that takes?
Black Waters. Nothing else beats it for creepy settings - this is a true haunted scenario (and it doesn't have HAUNTS!).
Carrion Hill would be good - but it runs 8 hours, (it does split easily into two settings though).
from your thread linked above...
"What has been your experience with noncombat-focused PCs in Society play? Are such PCs viable? What makes for effective ones? Or am I a lunatic for even considering making one?"
I have played many noncombat-focused PCs in PFS - I would in fact say MOST of my PCs are focused outside of combat.
"What makes for effective ones? " - I concentrate on the other parts of the game and leave the combat to the other players. So I "min-max" to get the most out of being the party "Face", or the "Skill monkey" or the "Professor of all knowledges" or "Trapsmith" or ... so many other things.
Such PCs are very viable - and are the ones I normally play.
This game we play is at it's base a story about a group of specialists who each have a part to play in the adventure. Each PC should have something he really shines doing - be it having the knowledge (local) to tell the rest of the party where the bathroom is (Knowledge monkey), or cutting monsters in half (combat), or talking the barmaid into giving up that little bit of information (face), or finding & disarming that Hot Fudge Death trap (Trapsmith), or whatever.
If you walk up to a table I am at and say, "Lord Chopsalot is a good tank, and he can handle the knowledge skills." I am not going to pull a front line fighter out, or a Knowledge weenie. I'm going to leave that to you. When I sit at the table I'll ask what else we have. After we cover that and I pull a PC out, I'll tell you want I cover, and my worst failings. ("Hi, I'm Katish. Call me Kat or Tish, never Kat-tish. I'll handle all the social skills, and I'm pretty useless in combat.") I am not likely to have a PC to cover an ability/skill/role that someone else said their PC brought that to that table.
I don't care if your PC has a 7 INT or a 20 INT... if you're running "the tank", I expect you to tank. If your PC does that thru smiling at the monsters and offering them Flaming Fudge Death - hey, maybe I'll take notes and build a PC like yours!
I don't know if I can tell you how to do this for yourself, to tell you what works for you. I am often amazed at how different people build their PCs. Everyone enjoys this game in different ways. What would be fun for you might not be fun for me and vice versa.
almost two months and no one has posted to this?
ok, Tread Necro!
You know you're in trouble when you get to the table and ....
everyone is wearing "Take 10 T-shirts!
yeah, I gave a bunch of them away at the last CON I went to... so we got a couple tables with all (or almost all) players in one.
Grand Master Torch will be checking into this...
Burning it down wouldn't stop the madness....
PFS 9-06 The Shadow of Blackros -- "As every Pathfinder knows, the Blackros Museum was the center of dark events, culminating in a group of Pathfinders burning the place down one year in a fit of pique. Every year, on the anniversary of that date, the shadowy image of the museum appears in the still vacant lot. Last year, at the behest of Venture-Captain Adril Hestram, a group of Pathfinders went into the shadow to find out why it keeps returning. Unfortunately, they never returned.
This year, at the behest of Venture-Captain Drandle Dreng, you and your fellow Pathfinders are being sent into the shadow museum to see if you can find and rescue the missing Pathfinders. Good luck!"
- and because it's VC Drandle Dreng - you're awakened and briefed at 11:00 PM (this is the first you have heard of this mission), and expected to be at that museum at midnight - no time for questions!
Funny story for Unnatural Lust
My witch cast Unnatural Lust on a Mook - sending him after the PC Druids Big Cat companion... He scrambles over and hugs said kitty, and I then slumber hex him...
This means that later, when he wakes up, he remembers unnaturally lustful thoughts (and actions), just before he blacked out. Only to come to some time later, (and because we searched him while he as asleep) with his clothing in dis-array, with a happy lion sitting next to him purring.
Yah... what happens in Almas, stays in Almas...
I only skimmed this so sorry if someone else pointed this out... but...
If the item is just allowing the user to cast the spell on himself, and then has a limited duration... does that mean he can remove the item and have the spell still be in effect?
So a party of adventurers could make themselves invisible by passing a Ring of Invisibility around? Each putting it on, activating it, removing it and passing it to the next player?
I alway figured it was more limited than that...
Mark Stratton wrote:
I actually started to post yestorday when I first read (or mis-read I guess) what you said. I actually have no interest in playing any of the Bonekeep scenarios. I have played Bonekeep I when it was new, and from the experience I had with it decided not to play any others. So I would have been posting in support of the "no interest in playing" any of the Bonekeep scenarios.
The way they are presented are not my style of play - and I have no interest in repeating the experience, or inflicting it on people I play with. (and just to note - there were no PC deaths at the table I played at, so no, it is not because of loosing PCs that I feel this way.)
As I am working on my 5th star now, I guess it will just limit those Specials I can run... but I can live with it. The 5th star gets here when (if) it does. And I intend to enjoy "the trip" more than "getting there". And from what I have seen, the Bonekeep series is not enjoyable to me.
Hay, you know, maybe someone will read this and think of producing a Boon for running a Gnome-Aasimar or maybe a Tiefling-Aasimar... that would be a new twist to making Aasimar Boons
Back in the days, I can recall playing in a Rune Quest game where the hostage is being ransomed for ... 2 bottles of grain alcohol. The Mooks were a race called Trollkin (picture goblins) and the grain alcohol just made them drunk. When the PCs found out the cost of the alcohol (something like 2 gp - REALLY cheap) they just went to the ransom meeting with 4 bottles.
Problems ensued. The payoff was so going so easy the Trollkin suspected a double cross... and told PC A to drink some of the grain alcohol.
PC B: "He can't do that!"
If a group is disfunctional enough to be shafting each other... maybe they shouldn't play together?
Obscuring Mist and Darkness builds? Silence casters? Barbarians with low Will saves? there are so many potential problems I can't even begin to list them....
IMHO we as judges don't - in fact CAN'T - police this. Not effectively. We as players can, and in fact always have. If a player is a real pain to play with - we don't play with him. "Playground rules." In time he fixes his problem (whatever it is), or he goes and plays Warcraft or something (not meaning to imply Warcraft players are less that fine people - just picking a random other part of the hobby).
It's maybe not real nice, it might not be pretty, ... and I may out of the kindness of my heart try to "fix the problem" ("hey guy, don't cheat on dice rolls - yeah, we can all tell..."). But I don't have to fix it. And I don't expect the someone else, some "authority figure" to fix it, or "control it".
In the end, life is to short for bad games. Play with friends. Talk to people. If you want to pull some great gimmic, don't keep it a secret, share it with your "friends" that the table. Enjoy. PLAY!
"If it's not fun, don't do it."
sheesh, now I need to go wash my face... sorry about that
wait... we already have that problem now! even when they CAN'T talk.
I often see players/judges assuming the AC can do all sorts of complex things. At my local shop, persons running PCs with ACs normally just avoid playing them at my table - otherwise they have to do things like create a list of "tricks" and all that...
But having an AC that can talk?! think of the Role Playing chances!
Judge as AC: "Does this saddle make me look fat?"
I play with a high level group (played most of EotT with this) that used to use the Goz mask (we all had one) with an Eversmoking Bottle... until the Judge asked us to quit using it as we were breaking the game to much (and it was less fun for him). So we put it away, and promptly had our first KIA in the next meeting...
heck, meeting the same guys in different scenarios can be fun... even if they are only "bit NPCs"
During a scenario with a "local thug" encounter, where the PCs are confronted by "hired thugs" intended to warn them off of their research, we captured several of the thugs and were questioning them. My PCs tend to do this a lot... Our judge had run another scenario the week before where I had much the same encounter... so he and I (with several "new" Players/PCs) went thru the "interview" something like this....
Me: "So Mook, we meet again!"
All this while the other players just watched and enjoyed. After all, I said my guy was the "Face"...
"I think my GM unintentionally "cheated" and TPKed, what do I do?"
This is just my opinion- realizing that I was not there and am not likely to be able to effect this in any way...
#1 - Talk to the judge to express the issues. Always give them a chance to know and understand your feelings on the job they are doing. Feedback is important, it is often how bad judges improve, and good judges become great.
#2 - if you aren't satisfied with his response to your concerns...Never play for him again. If you don't think he will improve... don't waste the game time with him. Life is too short to waste on bad games... and the number of scenarios are limited.
"If it's not fun, don't play"
something to think about:
A senior monk and a junior monk were traveling together. At one point, they came to a river with a strong current. As the monks were preparing to cross the river, they saw a very young and beautiful woman also attempting to cross. The young woman asked if they could help her.
The senior monk carried this woman on his shoulder, forded the river and let her down on the other bank. The junior monk was very upset, but said nothing.
They both were walking and senior monk noticed that his junior was suddenly silent and enquired “Is something the matter, you seem very upset?”
The junior monk replied, “As monks, we are not permitted a woman, how could you then carry that woman on your shoulders?”
The senior monk replied, “I left the woman a long time ago at the bank, however, you seem to be carrying her still.”
It is best to try to leave the bad games behind you... leave this judge at the river (if you can).
The Human Diversion wrote:
or print on cardstock, leaving an edge to hole-punch and drop in the binder with the scenario. I did this for the maps for First Steps - the Warehouse is two cardstock 8X11 sheets taped together so they fold on the tape crease and hole-punched on one side. The allyway and the Para-Countesses rooms etc. the same.
I can foresee the use of "Tech" traps in the future - in NON tech related scenarios. This is after all an "undetectable" trap that can't be disabled by most rogues.
Locks that can't be picked... wow...
Maybe I shouldn't have pointed this out where scenario writers will read it.
"...using his connections within Numeria, the villian was able to install a techological trap on his secret lair ... that can only be detected/disarmed by someone with the Technologist Feat..."
will the players know this before they come sit at the table?
I have PCs who have taken every knowledge skill - and regularly max out the skills (it's part of the PCs Schtick to be a "know it all"). It would be kind of a let down to sit down at a table and be told that my guy can't "do his thing" because of a rule I had never hear of in a book I didn't own.... and that I couldn't fix at the table by buying the book online - because it took a feat and all my feats were already selected.
Raphael Valen wrote:
i was thinking devil-born with like a bone-devil parent lol
what would you need the transparent skin etc for? Here's my description from my table tent...
Female Tiefling, Black hair, Yellow Cat’s Eyes, Veiled face
No tail. No horns. Really.
add in the continual flame spell on a tongue ring, so whenever I smile (or talk) flames flash thru my teeth... so I wear a veil... though it still flashes whenever I talk ... ;)
Da Wander wrote:
I'm still wondering - For those people that think a robot is an object,
Can I cast shrink item on a robot to reduce it's size 4 catagories? And "...change its now shrunken composition to a clothlike one"?
and now I need to know, can a Dimuative clothlike compostion robot still function as a robot? (I have visions of being attacked by diminutive robotic rag dolls. any chance we will see these things as swarms?)
I often play for a judge who has 6 extra (still sealed) folios that he often hands out at the start of a game...
"here, you might need this later... give it back at the end of the game"
Its somewhere you can show in public right? Because we're not taking your word for it.
if it''s not where he can show it in public, I DON'T want him to show it to us...
I stepped into this thread hoping to see some hints on using make-up as weapons, or in combat situations... you know, things like;
you know, "Cosmetic Weapons" - that sort of thing.
sigh... life is just full of disappointments I guess.
Michael Hallet wrote:
the point is not to "prove" it.
If someone wants to "cheat", they can just as easily just pull out a chronicle and write up the sheet themselves - never having played it or anything. No one that I know is going to check.
We're not going to check on you guy. That's the point of an honor system. I am not your mom, or a police man or anything like that. I don't check to see that someone is honest.
I might (and do) check for MISTAKES.
SO... what's legal, what's allowed, and what's not. I need to know this so that I can inform the players that ask me for help.
SO... legal questions now...
1) If a PC has been played before today as an Aasimar - can the 1st level re-write rules be used to convert the PC to a different type of Aasimar?
2) Can they be used to convert the PC to a Tiefling?
3) Can they be used to convert the PC to a Nagagi? (not a legal choice before the 14th - so it wouldn't have been legal when the chronicle on it was awarded).
Thanks for your input!
are we going to do this again? didn't we do this last month?
we can have one side getting upset because they think everyone is saying you have to pay for all your own healing, and the other side thinking that the other side is saying the party has to pay for all the meatshield healing (he get's a free ride)...
That is not what is being said.
Everyone chips in. Everyone contributes to the healing at the table. Even the girl getting the stuffing kicked out of her (be she the meatshield or the squishy).
Mark Stratton wrote:
but in the end, the monster died...
now, in a later game...
"my name is Kyle Baird ...you killed my monster... prepare to die."
Kyle Baird wrote:
you forgot the first two lines....
"I am Kyle Baird - "
This is going to sound snarky, but it isn't ment that way...
perhaps we should go back to the first option?
"Will not run a game with Pageant of the Peacock...", check to see if anyone at the table has this Masterpiece. If they do, don't run.
At the very least, determine how they think this Masterpiece works, and if it disagrees with your view, tell them how you rule it works before play so they have the option to switch PCs (or to drop the table).